Redwall In The Playground [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

John Cribati

2010-09-08, 08:17 PM

It seems we've got quite a few Redwall fans here, or at least people who used to read it. Well, I still do. I have a sort of Love/Hate relationship with it. Pretty much all of them from Triss onward have been crap (Triss, Eulalia) or just mediocre (the rest), up until Doomwyte, which was a return to the darker feel of the beginning. The Sable Quean, odd choice of title notwithstanding, was actually pretty good, too, mainly because it was something different that what I was used to. For one, this marked the first time ever that a plot-centric villain was directly killed by Martin's sword. Seriously, one got crushed by a bell, 2 drowned, 3 got the "killed by animal" treatment, one tripped and stabbed herself, one guy got suplexed off a mountain (which, admittedly, is pretty awesome) and one fell down a hole, which was not. I've been waiting for someone to just get straight-up shanked through the back, and it was the most refreshing Big Bad death in the series thus far. Also: Warrior Mole. Hell yes.

Anyone else still read the series? When did you stop? What was the best? Worst?

Like I said, I still read (13th person in New York to get Doomwyte right here). Mediocrity began with Legend of Luke (2/3 of the book was getting attacked by random tribe of things) and continued with Taggerung (Badger Lord just tells the invading army to go away. WTF?). Triss was the first one I could truly say was horrible (Bad jokes killed it, worse characterization buried it). Went back to Mediocre for High Rhulain (Mary Sue was annoying sometimes, but mostly likable; Hardest puzzles ever; Hare kills sea monster). Eulalia was the worst (I don't even want to get into that one; No, just No). Doomwyte was dark and awesome. Sable Quean mentioned above

MammonAzrael

2010-09-08, 08:33 PM

I haven't read any of the Redwall books in a long time. I stopped reading them around the time The Pearls of Lutra came out. Though I did pick up the Legend of Luke when that hit paperback.

I remember just slowly loosing interest in the series, as I got into more mature fantasy. I'm sad to hear the quality continued to decline.

Still, its a series I highly recommend to any younger crowd. I've had all my sisters read them, and they love them. Excellent starting fantasy all around.

druid91

2010-09-08, 08:50 PM

I read them, I have taggerung, triss, rakkety tam, and lord brocktree and I read the others when I can find them at the library.

Also what about gulo? he didn't get stabbed but having his head cut off sounds like a more active death than normal to me.

Cristo Meyers

2010-09-08, 08:57 PM

Read these like mad in my younger days, I think I stopped somewhere around Lord Brocktree, but it's been the better part of 10 years since then. Mossflower was easily my favorite.

Cheesegear

2010-09-08, 09:03 PM

Mossflower was easily my favorite.

Seconded.

I used to read every single one that the local library had. I devoured them in reading. I loved them. However, then I grew up, read some new books, better books. Books that engaged me.

Saw a stack of my old-favourites, Redwall, in the bookshop that I went to. Bought all ten of them that they had. On the second reading of them, now that I was seven years older from when I first read them...Yeah...Mediocrity. And all the books were pretty much the exact same plot.

Eruantion

2010-09-08, 09:05 PM

Man, I ate these up when I was little. Mossflower was my favorite, it had a completely different feel about it than the others. The best ones definitely have Matthias or Martin in them, like Mattimeo.

John Cribati

2010-09-08, 09:06 PM

Also what about gulo? he didn't get stabbed but having his head cut off sounds like a more active death than normal to me.

The whole "block with sword, then toss a beast that is at least twice your size several feet (proportionally) into the air, to have him conveniently land so that he beheads himself on your shield that you sharpened because a ghost mouse told you to, said shield having been forced into the ground" was... well, look at that. That's trying way too hard to be awesome, but falls a bit flat because of contrivance. It could have been written that Tam pointed the sword straight up, Gulo impales himself on the sword, and Gulo's blow just barely missing Tam's head or something. Not as much contrivance, still a nice end to a battle.

John Cribati

2010-09-08, 09:19 PM

Just see if I can remember all the villain deaths off the top of my head...
Spoilers, Natch.
Redwall-Cluny- Bell
Mossflower-Tsarmina-Drown
Mattimeo- Slagar- Hole
Mariel- Gabool- Scorpion to the face
Salamandastron- Feragho- Suplex off mountain.
Martin the Warrior- Badrang- Stabbed with Martin's sword before it was broken/reforged
Bellmaker- Urgan Nagru- Head to Tree. Wolf Sull Helmet. Wolf Teeth in Brain.
Outcast- Sixclaw. Also Suplexed off Mountain
Pearls- Ublaz- Snake
Long Patrol- Rapscallion Guy- Badger
Marlfox- Various Foxes, Mokkan the leader- Pike
Legend of Luke- Vilu Daskar- Crushed by Luke. Bare handed.
Brocktree- Ungatt Trunn- Back Broken; Abused Lacked fights back. Drown
Taggerung- Sawney Rath- Death By Starscream Archetype
Triss- Kurda-Trip and stab self
Loamhedge-Raga Bol- Used as Shield against arrows
Rakkety Tam- Gulo- Beheaded, as above
Hugh Rhulain- Riggu Fellis- Ninja Star to the face. No I'm not kidding.
Eulalia- Not talking about that one ever again.
Doomwyte- Krovis Skurr- Black otter with double sword.
Sable Quean-Zwilt- Martin's Sword to the back.

Starfols

2010-09-08, 10:08 PM

I stopped reading after.. the one after Mattimeo. I started out liking it, but it eventually got a bit old. Admittedly, I was older than the target audience when I read them, and had just discovered what furries were, so it was rather awkward reading them anywhere but in private. Made for some weird conversations. :smallsigh:

I think one of the things that turned me off was mouse-jingoism, for lack of a better term. Also the curiously specific descriptions of enemies dying and various kinds of food. :smallconfused:

Remmirath

2010-09-08, 10:53 PM

I read at least a few of them way back when. I recall Redwall, Mossflower, Mariel of Redwall, and The Bellmaker; but I'm pretty sure that at some point I also read Mattimeo, Salamandastron, and Martin the Warrior. The titles seem familiar, but I'm sure it's been at least twelve years since I read any of them.

I recall that I basically liked them. I did then, that is - I've no idea if I would were I to read them again - but in the end they weren't really my kind of thing. I stopped reading them when I started finding large numbers of books I liked better.

I'm sure that I liked the first three I listed the best (I remember them the best), but I can't recall in what order.

Ravens_cry

2010-09-09, 12:11 AM

The idea of some animal types being Always Chaotic Evil, the Vermin in this case, never appealed to me.
If I want Animals with minds fiction, I will re-read the Dunton Wood series or Watership Down.

Innis Cabal

2010-09-09, 12:13 AM

I've read all of them, and even have a signed copy of Marlfox by the man himself who I've met several times over the years. The books created a wonderful place for me growing up. They age a little poorly with the black and white morality but they're not aimed at adults, so I think it's a pointless argument. They're great kids books.

JonestheSpy

2010-09-09, 12:14 AM

Grimlock

2010-09-09, 02:50 AM

Man, I loved these as a kid, I remember saving up pocket money to buy Redwall when it was first published...in fact I had to borrow £1 off my mum! I read the first 4 or so and then just out grew them I guess. I'm sad to hear that the quality declined, I thought Jaques created a very vivid and wonderful world for children. Obviously when re-read as an adult they lose some of their sparkle, but the ones I read I will give to any children I may have!

Manga Shoggoth

2010-09-09, 07:01 AM

Hmmm. I read them in varying stages of being an adult. The first three were reasonably good - and at least enjoyable. The series went downhill after that.

One of the things I liked about them was that the story was not just about the hero.

hamishspence

2010-09-09, 08:44 AM

The idea of some animal types being Always Chaotic Evil, the Vermin in this case, never appealed to me.
If I want Animals with minds fiction, I will re-read the Dunton Wood series or Watership Down.

Yes- aside from Blaggut in The Bellmaker, there are very few vermin who turn out to be nicer than apparent. Mostly ferrets (like Romsca) and they always end up with Redemption Equals Death.

Robin Jarvis's Deptford Mice and Deptford Histories had the same issue, but not to quite such an extent- there were good guy rats, and the occasional exceptionally malevolent mouse or squirrel. I liked those books.

They were a bit like Redwall, but grimmer. I've seen them characterized on TV Tropes as "the absinthe to Redwall's home-made lemonade."

FyreByrd

2010-09-09, 08:57 AM

Redwall series...at least where I got up to (pearls of lutra) were fantastic when I was in my early teens...however certainly Pearls was starting to show a tiredness in the formula.

If you're over 15 and reading them...be advised you may not enjoy them as much as when you were under 15!

That said I never liked Redwall much, Bellmaker was always my favourite...had a soft spot for a certain duel-wielding otter...hmmmm

>goes away to stat up finbarr!<

Cristo Meyers

2010-09-09, 04:12 PM

I read Redwall years ago, as an adult, after seeing them around for years and being curious. Thought it was incredibly mediocre, fairly predictable, and the hero was annoying and Mary Sueish as heck. Never read any others. Do folks think that it was just a weak start, like the Discworld novels, or typical of the series?

Redwall was his first book, and it shows. Honestly it's a really weak start. Mossflower and Martin the Warrior were aeons better.

That said, they're still pretty much kids books. The 12-13 year old me loved them, the 26 year old me probably wouldn't be able to finish Mossflower.

Nomrom

2010-09-09, 04:54 PM

I loved those books growing up, and I still do. I'll admit, they're definitely kid's books, and the story does a get a little old after awhile since the basic plot for each book is the same, but there was something about them that always captured my imagination and made me want to read them. I've read all of them except for the most recent, and I don't think there's been any I didn't like though some of them weren't as good as the rest.

musicalbookworm

2010-09-09, 05:56 PM

I loved these books! Probably the first full length novel I read (though I don't remember which it was...)
After a couple of years and about half a dozen though, I got bored of the same plot reiterated with different characters, who are all not much more than archetypes. For example, there's the Goofy Hare Warrior (usually male) who, as per usual for hares, eats a lot. He is usually seen seperate from the hares in Salamandastrom (sp?), as a solo protector of the innocent/war advisor for Redwall. There's one in every book about Redwall being besieged, and I think there's even a couple elsewhere.

I think one of the things that turned me off was mouse-jingoism, for lack of a better term. Also the curiously specific descriptions of enemies dying and various kinds of food. :smallconfused:
I loved the descriptions of food! I have a very vivid imagination, and I could taste the meals Jacque described. Hmm-mm!
Of course, if I was hungry or sick, the descriptions of food were just miserable to read:smallsigh:

I don't really remember the excruciatingly detailed descriptions of villain's deaths, I guess cause I skipped past them. 'Course, that is something I would do.

ninjalemur

2010-09-11, 01:41 AM

...had a soft spot for a certain duel-wielding otter...<
Dang, I had forgotten about Finbarr. I had a hand drawn poster of him hanging over my bed back in grade school. Bellmaker was pretty good, but I always had a soft spot for The Long Patrol. I still, however, think that Mossflower was the best (and it was the first novel I ever read, back in second grade).

Lord Raziere

2010-09-11, 02:05 AM

I've read like the whole series until High Rhulain, then I got tired of it.

did get me into fantasy though. so yeah I thank it for that.

MammonAzrael

2010-09-11, 03:44 AM

Also the curiously specific descriptions of enemies dying and various kinds of food. :smallconfused:

Man I forgot about this! The amount of time he spent detailing all that food was crazy. Really made me hungry sometimes.

And if you guys want good rat characterization, go watch the Secret of Nihm. :smallbiggrin:

JonestheSpy

2010-09-11, 11:19 AM

And if you guys want good rat characterization, go watch the Secret of Nihm. :smallbiggrin:

better yet, read the book it's based on: Mrs Frisby and the Rats of NIMH.

Stadge

2010-09-11, 05:27 PM

I used to love these books so much, my favourites have probably got to be The Legend of Luke, Martin the Warrior, Mariel of Redwall and Lord Brocktree though.

Haven't bought another one since Rakkety Tam, by that point they'd become too predictable for me, if I get the cash to spare though, I'd probably get the rest just for a feeling of completion. Also, warrior mole sounds so nifty :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, my dad used to buy me one these every couple of weeks and I'd more often than not read the entire thing in a day. Ah good memories :smallsmile:

SilentNight

2010-09-11, 10:20 PM

Heh, I grew up reading these in grade school, Lord Brocktree tops the charts in my book though. Mostly for the Hares and as mentioned, the detailed descriptions of food.

Xondoure

2010-09-12, 02:23 AM

I've read like the whole series until High Rhulain, then I got tired of it.

did get me into fantasy though. so yeah I thank it for that.

The same. High Rulian ruined the series for me, I found it utterly boring. My favorites were the ones that at least made some attempt at being original and of course Mossflower. Outcast, Mariel, Bellmaker, Long Patrol, and Rakkety Tam come to mind.

John Cribati

2010-09-12, 08:23 AM

I'd probably get the rest just for a feeling of completion.

Avoid Eulalia. Or else kill it with fire.

Stadge

2010-09-12, 08:25 AM

Avoid Eulalia. Or else kill it with fire.

Is it genuinely that bad?

John Cribati

2010-09-12, 08:35 AM

Is it genuinely that bad?

More than any human being should ever know.

Mary Leathert

2010-09-12, 12:37 PM

I read (and liked) the series when it was still translated into Finnish and found at the local library. But they stopped at I think Long Patrol, so I have no idea about what has been going on in the series after that. I could read them in English, but I'm not so interested that I would start ordering them from abroads, so the chance is quite slim.

I actually liked all the food descriptions. They seemed so tasty. (But these are not books you should read when you're hungry, you'll just start drooling and end up eating more than you should if there's food available).

DomaDoma

2010-09-12, 07:54 PM

My Redwall reading is pretty piecemeal. I haven't read anything after maybe the first five chapters of Rakkety Tam - I'm going to have to go with majority opinion and say that Mossflower is the best, with its Robin Hood vibe and its nice little intrigue - but there are some pretty big gaps, from what I can tell.

I've never read Outcast of Redwall, and I've been told I really should. How is it? Also, I've heard Marlfox compared to Death Note, which I really have to doubt, but I'd like to know how my source came by that comparison.

Blue Ghost

2010-09-12, 08:05 PM

Ooh, Redwall! I still love Redwall and follow the series avidly, even though I realize it's going downhill. Mattimeo, Mariel of Redwall, and Martin the Warrior were my favorites. Recognize the reference in my location? It's from a scene/song to which I appropriated my own significance.

John Cribati

2010-09-12, 08:30 PM

I've never read Outcast of Redwall, and I've been told I really should. How is it? Also, I've heard Marlfox compared to Death Note, which I really have to doubt, but I'd like to know how my source came by that comparison.

Outcast: The title character is Veil, a ferret whose father was a warlord. He's adopted by Redwall and raised by a mouse girl named Bryony. He's not a good little Dibbun, though, but Bryony always sticks/stuck up for him. Eventually, Veil gets thrown out for attempted murder. Bryony follows him, trying to bring him back. It does not go well. Soon enough, Veil meets his father, who tries to kill Bryony, and Veil takes a javelin for her and dies. Bryony then "realizes" that Veil was evil all along, had never done a good thing in his life (except taking a javelin for her, but whatever) and deserved his fate, even though she still loves him like a mother loves a child. The moral was a bit mixed, but it made a sort of sense. Even though Veil did one good thing in the book, he still steals, kills, beats up old people, etc. Did one good thing really absolve him of it all?
Also: Badger and hawk have Homoerotic Subtext. Badger throws veil's daddy off a cliff for killing hawk..

Marlfox: Epic. One of the best. Totally recommend. The Death Note part probably has to do with these foxes (those in the title) try to outsmart each other, because only one of them is going to rule this castle. The most "Death Note-y" part involves two cups and a vial of poison. And it is epic.

Averagedog

2010-09-13, 06:37 PM

oh Redwall, how I miss thee.

Personally I have read up to the Taggerung/ Lord Brocktree area before going to college. Havn't read one since. But I have seen the animated shows recently, which brought me here. Good times, Good times. I was actually hoping there would be a freeform RP or something around, but I was disappointed :P.

Blue Ghost

2010-09-13, 06:45 PM