[3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix

[Samm]

This is my third homebrew, and it's probably my most ambitious yet. I'm trying to fix the fighter, and it's taken a while. Fixing the fighter is a notoriously hard task, he's got to be so many things to so many people. So in order to make this fix, I've borrowed from the work of a number of others. BRC's Brawler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149668), Psionic Dog's Limb Loss Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156980) and Realms of Chaos' Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278). In fact the BRC's Brawler and Psionic Dog's rules especially, I've copied some of BRC's work, and this homebrew runs on Psionic Dog's rules. So thank you.

This is probably my most ambitious fix yet, a whole thread has been devoted to wrestling with fixing the fighter, The Fighter Manifesto (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149854) from which I've tailor-made this fix for. I've aimed to address all the requests of this thread, but I doubt I'm successful in doing so.

Just a note: I'm aiming this to be tier three, that's inline with the Warblade, Crusader, Bard, Duskblade etc.

And without further ado, here it is, the big one:


The Fighter


"Is that all you've got Dragon? Well I've got more, eat this!"

The fighter is a guy who fights. He is the man who fronts up to battle and defeats his opposition in a number of ways, depending on his personal style. He could be gritty, flashy, dirty, honourable, whatever he chooses.

More often than not though, the fighter is the frontline combatant, who tries to get between the rest of his party and their enemies. He's probably also the weapons guy.

The Fighter

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Defensive Style, Favoured Weapon +1, Bonus Feat

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Fighter Ability, Fighter's Skills

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Bravery

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Mettle, Favoured Weapon +2

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Fighter Ability

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Bonus Feat

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Fighter Ability

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Ironback

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Improved Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat, Favoured Weapon +3

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Improved Mettle

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Improved Fighter Ability

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Bonus Feat

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Improved Fighter Ability,

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Fight On, Favoured Weapon +4

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Master Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Through the Armour

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Master Fighter Ability

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|It was Inevitable, Bonus Feat

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Perfect Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat, Favoured Weapon +5[/table]

Hit Dice: d10
Skills: 4+Int (x4 at 1st level).
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (two skills of your choice, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).

Class Features:

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Simple, Martial and One Exotic of your choice. Armour (see defensive styles)

Defensive Styles: At 1st, you may choose one of the defensive styles from the following:

Unarmoured:
You get armour proficiency with Padded armour. As an unarmoured fighter, you gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to your Dexterity modifier when wearing Padded or no armour. You also gain a +10ft bonus to speed when wearing no armour.
Light:
You gain armour proficiency with light armour and shields. When wearing Light armour or less, you add 1/2 your Dex modifier (minimum 1) to your AC as a dodge bonus and you gain a +5ft bonus to speed.
Medium:
You gain armour proficiency with medium armour and shields. You also gain +2 to your hitpoints per Fighter level. You also may subtract -1 from the Armour Check penalties when wearing medium armour or less. This increases to -2 at 7th level, and -3 at 20th level.
Heavy:
You gain proficiency with heavy armour and shields, including tower shields. You also gain +2 hitpoints per Fighter level. You also gain a bonus to AC equal to your favoured weapon bonus when wearing heavy armour.

Favoured Weapon: At 1st level, Choose a favoured weapon type which you have proficiency with. When wielding this type of weapon you gain a +1 bonus to attack, damage, disarm, sunder and trip rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level and +5 at 20th level. You may retrain this by spending an hour of uninterrupted training with this new type of weapon. You must have proficiency with this new weapon type.

Bonus Feat: At 1st and 4th levels, and every three levels afterwards, you may select a bonus feat from the Fighter Feat list.

Fighter's Mount: At 1st level, you may choose a mount, and spend one day with it of interrupted training. This yields a +1 bonus on ride and handle animal checks. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, and a further +1 every 5 levels after that. This mount is the mount referred to in all other abilities.

Fighter Ability: At 2nd 4th, 6th and 8th levels, you may choose an ability from this set. Instead of picking an ability, you may take a Fighter Bonus Feat.

Stunning Strike: as per Stunning Fist except you can use a weapon. Furthermore the DC is based off Str or Dex whichever is higher.

Thundering Charge When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

Dirty Fighting: As a standard action, or as part of a full attack, you may sacrifice a normal attack in exchange for a dirty fighting check. You make the attack and damage rolls as normal, but the attack deals no damage. Instead, the target must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 5+damage that would have been dealt) or be treated as flat footed for 1 round.

Uncanny Dodge: You gain the ability Uncanny Dodge, as per the Barbarian.

Goad:As a swift action, you may to goad all enemies within 100ft. All enemies of that can hear and see you must make a will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Fighter Level +Charisma Modifier) or attack you by any means necessary. This effect last until the begining of your next turn. You may goad the enemies 1/2 Fighter level times per encounter.

Fire!:Gain Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Mounted Manoeuvres: Gain Mounted Combat and Ride by attack, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Shield Ally: As an immediate action you may opt to absorb half the damage given to an adjacent ally. He takes half damage, you take half damage. This lasts until your next turn, this may not be used to absorb damage from spell-like or supernatural abilities, unless they involve throwing physical objects at your ally.

Cumulative Momentum: For each missed attack in a full attack you may add a +4 on your next attack this round. This stacks. For example if you make 2 attacks and miss both of them, you will gain a +8 bonus on your third attack.

Mounted Tactics: You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

It Builds Up: After each successful hit add 1d6 damage to the next hit. This stacks until the end of your turn, at which point it resets. For example if you make 2 successful attacks, the next gains a bonus 2d6 damage.

A Major Distraction: Enemies that take a hit from a fighter take a penalty to their AC equal to 1/2 your Fighter Level until your next turn, if they fail a reflex save (DC= 5+Damage Dealt).

Keep it coming: After a fighter lands a critical hit he gains Temporary HP equal to a quater of the damage dealt (maximum double your fighter level). This doesn't include DR or resistances of the opponent targeted, just the actual damage output. These temporary hit points last one minute.

Cunning Tactics: You gain Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as bonus feats, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Brutish Tactics: You gain Improved Grapple and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Sneak Attack: You gain +1d6 Sneak Attack. This ability may be taken multiple times, it's effects stack.

Mount and Rider Bond: Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

Mounted Defence: Your mount when you're riding it, gets a bonus to AC equal your favoured weapon bonus.

Mounted Aggression:Your mount when you're riding it, gets a bonus to attack and damage equal to your favoured weapon bonus.

Ain't Nothing Gonna Break My Stride: You gain a +4 bonus to armor class against any attacks of opportunity you provoke by charging or bull rushing. In addition, you may charge over uneven terrain.

Injury To Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time you successfully trip or disarm an opponent, you may make an attack against the opponent that was just disarmed or tripped at the same attack bonus as the trip attempt. This stacks with Improved Trip.

Vigilant Defender: If an opponent attempts to use the Tumble skill to move through your threatened area or your space without provoking attacks of opportunity, the Tumble check DC to avoid your attacks of opportunity increases by an amount equal to your class level.

Pounce: You gain the ability Pounce. If you charge a foe, you may make a full attack.

Float like a Butterfly: You gain Dodge and Mobility as Bonus Feats even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Fighter's Skill: At 2nd level, choose a skill from the following: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim and Tumble. Add 1/2 of your Fighter level (minimum 1) to skill checks of this type.

Bravery: At 3rd level, you gain a bonus to saves against harmful fear and morale effects equal to 1/2 your Fighter level.

Mettle: At 5th level, If you make a Will save or Fortitude save that has an effect on a successful save (such as the damage on a successful save vs. Disintegrate), you take no effect on a successful save (i.e., ‘Will half’ and ‘Fortitude partial’ become ‘Will none’ and ‘Fortitude’ none for you).

Ironback: At 9th level, you halve the penalties relating to heavy and medium encumbrance. This doesn't extend to armour though.

Improved Fighter Ability: At 10th, 12th, and 14th levels, you may select an ability from the following list. Instead of one of these abilities, you may select a Fighter Ability or a bonus feat, if you wish.

Mage Fighter: At You gain the feat Mage Slayer even if you don't meet the prequisites. Additionally, if caster attempts to cast a spell normally, when they provoke an Attack of Opportunity, their concentration check is raised by your Fighter level.

Packhorse: Your mount doubles it's carrying capacity.

Accelerate!: Your mount gets a bonus to its speed equal to your favoured weapon bonus times 5ft.

Lasting Wounds: On a successful critical, you deal 1d4 + 1/4 Fighter level Constitution damage. You may take a -4 penalty to your attack and attempt to deal this damage as a standard action.

Between the Ribs: When attacking flatfooted targets, you deal 1d6 extra damage per 4 fighter levels. Requires Dirty Fighting.

Critical Strike: As a standard action you may make an attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack, upon hitting does maxed critical damage. This stacks with lasting wounds, but does not stack with any other critical related abilities.

Between the scales: Ignore up to 1/2 your Fighter level in DR, when making an attack on an opponent.

Attack not the ally: When an enemy within reach attacks deals damage to an ally (not you), you may attack immediately attack the enemy, once per round at your highest attack bonus.

Improved Mage Fighter: (requires Mage Fighter) You gain the feats Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Improved Mettle: As per Mettle, except upon a failed throw, you receive only the partial effect.

Fight On: At 15th level, you may ignore any single attack, spell or supernatural effect for a total number of rounds per day equal to 1/2 your Fighter level plus your Constitution Modifier, if the effect is not enough to kill you. The effect doesn't affect you in any way at all until you run out of rounds, or choose to let the effect affect you. You may make saves to overcome that effect during that time.

Master Fighter Abilities: At 16th and 18th levels, you may select an ability from this list. If you wish, instead, you may may select a fighter ability, an improved fighter ability or a bonus feat.


Fight Back: Once per round, after taking damage, as an immediate action, you may attack back at your highest attack bonus.

Limb Severing Blow: Once per turn you may make an attack as part of as a standard or as part of a full attack. If this attack hits it will temporarily destroy an enemies limb, if the enemy fails a (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Strength Modifier) Fortitude save. The possible targeted limbs include: Hand, Arm or a Leg.

Mounted Toughness: Your mount gets a bonus hit dice equal to your favoured weapon bonus.

Another One Bites the Dust: (requires Cunning Tactics and Injury to Insult) Once per turn on a successful attack, you may make a trip attempt against an opponent. This trip attempt doesn't count as an extra attack, it is an immediate action. You don't need to make the touch attack. If the trip attemtp fails, then the opponent cannot react to trip you.

Bulwark of Defence:If an opponent begins in a square you threaten, he treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

Bloodlust:You may double your attacks made in a full round once per encounter.

Through the Armour: Once per turn, instead of making a normal attack, you may make an attack that targets the target's touch AC.

It was Inevitable: Once per turn, on of your attacks is a automatic hit.

Perfect Fighter Abilities: At 20th level, you may select one of these abilities from the least. If you wish, you may select a Master Fighter Ability, Improved Fighter Ability, Fighter Ability or Bonus Feat

Killing Blow: As a standard action you may make an attack. This attack, if it hits, does normal damage, however, the enemy must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Strength Modifier) or die.

Head Shot: Once per turn, you may make an attack as a standard action or part of a full attack. If this attack hits, it deals normal damage. In addition, it will permanently destroy somebody's head, torso, or limbs if the enemy fails a (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Strength Modifier) Fortitude save. Creatures not vulnerable to critical hits are unaffected by this ability. Requires Limb Severing Blow.

A Good Fighter Never Falls: Once every 3 encounters, when reduced to below 0 hit points, you may make a Fighter level check (d20+fighter level). Divide the result by 5. You may keep fighting normally for this many rounds below 0hp, even if brought to -10hp. When this ability wears off, the current state of your hit points affects you again.
-------------------------------

If anyone would suggest some out of combat abilites, that would be appropriate, that would be brilliant.

In fact any suggestions would be great. Thanks guys.

[Latronis]

advancing mettle through to improved mettle seems like a natural choice an slot into 11th nicely

[HalfTangible]

Maybe something like the favored enemy feats rangers get?

Or any of these:

Body Slam
You may slam into your enemy with all the force you can muster on a successful grapple check if you so choose. Does 1d10 for each of the fighter's Hit Die. Also does half of that damage to the user.

Finisher
Can only use this once per hour. You may improve a single critical by one. (from x2 to x3, from x3 to x4, for example) the increase is optional but the decision must be made BEFORE damage dice are rolled.

The Will is Everything

You may apply your wisdom bonus to your damage rolls.

Bloodlust

You may double your attacks per round once every twenty minutes.

These are just off the top of my head. I could think up something better if needed.

[Samm]

advancing mettle through to improved mettle seems like a natural choice an slot into 11th nicely

That sounds like a rather good idea. But I'm not sure of it balance wise.


Maybe something like the favored enemy feats rangers get?

Or any of these:

Body Slam
You may slam into your enemy with all the force you can muster on a successful grapple check if you so choose. Does 1d10 for each of the fighter's Hit Die. Also does half of that damage to the user.

Finisher
Can only use this once per hour. You may improve a single critical by one. (from x2 to x3, from x3 to x4, for example) the increase is optional but the decision must be made BEFORE damage dice are rolled.

The Will is Everything

You may apply your wisdom bonus to your damage rolls.

Bloodlust

You may double your attacks per round once every twenty minutes.

These are just off the top of my head. I could think up something better if needed.

Hmm... Some of these are nice, I like them thematically, but I'm not sure about them balance wise.

I mean, Body Slam sounds crazy for characters who have plenty of healing handy.

Bloodlust is nice, though I'd prefer it if it were once per encounter.

The Will is everything... I don't really think it suits this class.

Finisher... I'm not sure. It seems nice on the surface, but the whole "choose your role before hand" thing is kind of inhibiting.

Edit: I've added bloodlust as a master fighter ability and added Improved Mettle at 11th level.

[Latronis]

With good fort an will saves mettle makes a bigger difference than improved mettle. All it really does is give a little more breathing room on an unlucky roll

[Samm]

With good fort an will saves mettle makes a bigger difference than improved mettle. All it really does is give a little more breathing room on an unlucky roll

I suppose. I guess it means that fighters become a whole lot harder to kill/lockdown, and that's probably a good thing, them being the meat shield.

[Cadian 9th]

Looks good for the most part. I don't like how he gets a good will save, nor do I like how he gets so many skill points.

I do have the following suggestion, however: move Fighter skill to 2nd level, since it has no benefit until 2nd level anyway.

Much more than your other homebrews, Samm, I feel rather locked into what kind of fighter I want to play - I understand you've catered for the widest possible, but I find the inclusion of certain abilities kinda forces you into the role.

Let's run a few sample builds of mine, generic, using the fighter. Then'll put in a multi-class example and we'll see how the new fighter works...

The Archer Fighter:

Taking a dex boosting race like elf. Baring multi-classing into Scout, this build was relatively accomplishable with fighter bonus feats.
1st: Fighter (DotU ACF, +2 ini, dex to damage vs FF opponents.)
Point Blank shot, Rapid shot.
2nd: Precise Shot
3rd: Bow slinger/generic other/Devotion feat.
4th: Combat feat
5th: -
6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot

Lets assume a dex of 24 (18+2 race+4 magic item), he's a pretty good archer. He works well also if he needs to push into melee, but, he really comes in handy in the first round of combat where his greater manyshot or rapidshot really puts out the pain. In terms of Skills he's putting his limited points into stuff like tumble and combat skills, so he's not very useful out of combat.

The Fixed Fighter
Same race and ACF choice. I have to take the Heavy Armor defence choice. This irks me, so I'll have to drop the Dex to damage ACF. Picking up light defensive style. Favoured weapon (Long bow) is a nice thing though, but not a huge bonus. It'll come in handy as I level, since I'll be maximising my rate of fire, and that extra 2-4 points of attack and damage will do nicely.
1st: Point Blank Shot. I cannot take rapid shot unless I am a human or if I take flaws. This is irritating, but not really too bad. Picking up light armor style nets me a decent AC, thanks.
2nd: I'd like to take It Builds Up, but I don't have the Rate of fire to make it useful. Therefore I have to take Rapid Shot. Level 1 has been rather poor.
3rd: I get bravery, ok. I take a non-combat feat/devotion/fluff or whatever.
4th: This is a good level, much better than the others. I pick Precise Shot and It Builds Up. Now with the 2 attacks from Rapidshot I'll get +3d6 damage if I fire at the same guy. Useful for focus fire when it counts.
5th: I get Mettle. Ok, pretty cool.
6th: I want to get Greater Manyshot, so I do. taking Manyshot as well of course.
7th: I know the sample build above only went to 6th, but here I get a bonus feat. That's pretty cool. I also get more at 8th, I'll prolly pick up Uncanny Dodge or perhaps A Major Distraction, since -4 ac is nice.

As an alternative, say if I was rocking up to a game already at 6th level:
1st: Point Blank shot, Skill, Favoured Weapon, Dodge bonus to AC
2nd: It Builds Up.
3rd: Rapid Shot, Bravery.
4th: Precise Shot, Uncanny Dodge.
5th: Mettle.
6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot.

Summary:
The Fixed Fighter is lacking at the lower levels. Lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes him rather unattractive to people starting at 1st level. I mean, lets take a look at the Crusader. Randomness aside (since most maneouvers are good anyway), you've got delayed damage, almost as many skill points, some supernatural divine abilities, the ability to heal yourself, buff your friends, heal your friends - and it gets better later. 1st level Druid is almost incomparable to this, getting spells, wisdom based abilities, an animal companion. 1st level Cleric can actually be better even without spells thanks to the domains he gets, for example Elf Domain for Point Blank Shot and then a Devotion feat for a bonus, and he can still take Rapid Shot.

The dodge to AC is nice, I'll give it that. But the first level is rather a turn off for me, if I want to be an archer guy. Skills make him slightly more useful, but in the end its going to be the same. There'll be that character in the party who is the diplomat, there'll be the trapkiller. Fighter never was meant to fill those niches, hence his limited skillset. It is nice to have the option, though.


The Two Weapon Fighter

This is a common build, working well from an early level with fighter. What gave fighter the edge on the lower level TWF builds was his bonus feat, allowing the player to take a race that gave ability bonuses. Let's say I go Wood Elf, Str 14 and Dex 18. Not out of the question given ok rolls or a ppoint buy.

1st: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon fighting.
2nd: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Travel Devotion?
4th: Deft Opportunist
6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double hit

Quite effective, not the most optimal build, but can hold it's own in combat. With high dex the guy is harder to hit of course, and all the good things about having higher dex - standing in front of your allies or getting up in the enemies face. Taking two energy weapons will pump his damage and enable him to get a lot of mileage out of the old Haste or Energy Blade spell.

The Fixed Fighter:
1st: Again, this guy loses out since I can't select weapon finesse. That's semi okay. I get a bonus on attack rolls, useful. Picking Light armor style.
2nd: Awsome, I just got pounce. But I still don't have weapon finesse.
3rd: Bravery. Okay. I'll pick up Weapon Finesse.
4th: YES. It Builds Up and I'll take Combat Reflexes.
5th: Mettle. Ok.
6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Double hit. With Double hit my pounced opponent will find it harder to get away.

Okay, on first glance it's a winner. However, there's a definite depreciation in the 1st level, again. 2nd level is just awesome. It builds Up becomes terribly awesome. But still. 5th is meh, 3rd is meh. The two weapon fighter is really good now.


The Greatsword Guy

A straight "I power attack and deal so much damage" build. We start with any race really. Again, the bonus feat at 1st level is a big boon for this guy.
1st: Power Attack. Cleave.
2nd: Improved Sunder/Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Death Devotion or whatever.
4th: Great Cleave.
5th: -
6th: Non-fighter feat (power charge?) and Shock Trooper.

Works nicely. Does nothing else really, but is fun to play. What he lacks in barbarian rage he makes up for by having more feats and things to do with them. Shock trooper makes it nice. Very nice.

The Fixed Fighter:
Again, lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes it less attractive. But still:
1st: Power Attack. Heavy Armor guy, favoured weapon is nice.
2nd: Pounce. Yes please. Roll it into power attack, there's a good chap.
3rd: Cleave, Bravery. Ho hum. Cleave is kinda not so useful now, but hey.
4th: "Ain't Nothing gonna break My stride" and Great Cleave? Yes please.
5th: Mettle. Meh.
6th: Shock Trooper and Improved Bullrush. YES. With the boost to AC from the Heavy Fighter style, Shock Trooper becomes more awesome.

Okay, this build is awesome. Thank you.


Spiked Chain Fighter!

A firm favourite, I've seen. Named after his tripping tricks and spiked chain.
1st: EWP (Spiked Chain). Combat Reflexes.
2nd: Combat Expertise.
3rd: Improved Trip.
4th: Stand Still.
5th: -
6th: Deft Opportunist, something else.

This guy was good at 1st level, got awesome by 3rd and sorta went okay after that. Alot of fun to play, I thought. He's the guy to play if you're looking for a complex fighter. he's pretty versatile as well.

The Fixed Figher
Straight up, no problem with the lack of a bonus feat. We've got chain prof! For the 1st level feat:
1st: Combat Reflexes.
2nd: Cunning Tactics. Thank you. We just got Improved Trip and Disarm, no need for int 13 or anything!
3rd: Bravery. Deft opportunist makes this guy more punishing.
4th: Yay. Injury to Insult, yes please. Then, we take Stand Still, that is nice.
5th: Mettle.
6th: Everything just got more awesome. Thanks. Taking It Builds Up or taking Vigilant Defender? I have a choice. Also taking something like - this is the good thing, I have a free feat at 6th level.

Chain tripper wins big. Cunning tactics is awesome. It Builds Up just gets disgusting when combined with a full trip attack and then AOOs when they do anything, so 2 attacks at 6th, trip on the 2nd, bonus attack, another bonus attack, Then the AOO now has +5d6 damage. Standstill got even better as well.


The Mounted Guy, Don't Knock him.

This build is rather rare, but is pretty cool. Fighter was pretty much the only way to go unless you wanted to burn loads of feats and get pretty much nowhere.
1st: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack
2nd: Spirited Charge
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Wild Cohort.
5th: -
6th: Powerful Charge? Shield Block? Shock Trooper? Free hit.

Can deal insane ammounts of damage, but suffers without the multiple attacks. Straight up lance dealing d8+4+12 Power attack tripled etc. Taking wild Cohort makes your horsey slightly better. Give it Martial Study and Martial Stance (Island of blades) to get you flanking or whatnot, or make it take white raven maneouvers. Charge damage bonuses are nice.

Or you can be funny and give your horse Bind Vestige. Because a warhorse is so pro at summoning ancient spirits and drawing pentagrams.

The fixed Fighter
Oh... It's much harder to do.
1st: Favoured Weapon, meh. I'll take Mounted Combat. Taking the Medium Armor Prof is cool, since it reduces the check penalty to ride checks.
2nd: None of the abilities do much for me. Pounce is cool, but doesn't really work on a mount until later levels. I'll take a feat: Ride by Attack.
3rd: Bravery, Spirited Charge. Damage just bumped up. Alot.
4th: taking 2 bonus feats - Power Attack and Powerful Charge. Nice.
5th: Mettle, meh.
6th: Pounce and Shock Trooper. Yes please. Damage just skyrocketed. Charging is so awsome. Fighter Skills makes Ride easier.

But still. Horsey guy does not really work NEARLY as well as the original fighter. I understand there's meant to be some other class for that, but there isn't really. We lost Wild Cohort, but hey.


All in all, hope that's given some insight into some things that the Fighter Fix lacks, namely, the 1st level bonus feat - it cripples some of the more esoteric builds. I'd like to see more support for mounted fighters and archery fghters... Maybe remove one of the super awsome 4th level thing and give us the boni feat at 1st level? Perhaps some archery focused abilities and mounted abilities. Thanks.

Well Done.

[Samm]

Looks good for the most part. I don't like how he gets a good will save, nor do I like how he gets so many skill points.

So 4 skill points per level? Because anything lower than that is utterly fail.


I do have the following suggestion, however: move Fighter skill to 2nd level, since it has no benefit until 2nd level anyway..

Cool, sounds like a reasonable thing to do.


Much more than your other homebrews, Samm, I feel rather locked into what kind of fighter I want to play - I understand you've catered for the widest possible, but I find the inclusion of certain abilities kinda forces you into the role.

Let's run a few sample builds of mine, generic, using the fighter. Then'll put in a multi-class example and we'll see how the new fighter works...

The Archer Fighter:

Taking a dex boosting race like elf. Baring multi-classing into Scout, this build was relatively accomplishable with fighter bonus feats.
1st: Fighter (DotU ACF, +2 ini, dex to damage vs FF opponents.)
Point Blank shot, Rapid shot.
2nd: Precise Shot
3rd: Bow slinger/generic other/Devotion feat.
4th: Combat feat
5th: -
6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot

Lets assume a dex of 24 (18+2 race+4 magic item), he's a pretty good archer. He works well also if he needs to push into melee, but, he really comes in handy in the first round of combat where his greater manyshot or rapidshot really puts out the pain. In terms of Skills he's putting his limited points into stuff like tumble and combat skills, so he's not very useful out of combat.

The Fixed Fighter
Same race and ACF choice. I have to take the Heavy Armor defence choice. This irks me, so I'll have to drop the Dex to damage ACF. Picking up light defensive style. Favoured weapon (Long bow) is a nice thing though, but not a huge bonus. It'll come in handy as I level, since I'll be maximising my rate of fire, and that extra 2-4 points of attack and damage will do nicely.
1st: Point Blank Shot. I cannot take rapid shot unless I am a human or if I take flaws. This is irritating, but not really too bad. Picking up light armor style nets me a decent AC, thanks.
2nd: I'd like to take It Builds Up, but I don't have the Rate of fire to make it useful. Therefore I have to take Rapid Shot. Level 1 has been rather poor.
3rd: I get bravery, ok. I take a non-combat feat/devotion/fluff or whatever.
4th: This is a good level, much better than the others. I pick Precise Shot and It Builds Up. Now with the 2 attacks from Rapidshot I'll get +3d6 damage if I fire at the same guy. Useful for focus fire when it counts.
5th: I get Mettle. Ok, pretty cool.
6th: I want to get Greater Manyshot, so I do. taking Manyshot as well of course.
7th: I know the sample build above only went to 6th, but here I get a bonus feat. That's pretty cool. I also get more at 8th, I'll prolly pick up Uncanny Dodge or perhaps A Major Distraction, since -4 ac is nice.

As an alternative, say if I was rocking up to a game already at 6th level:
1st: Point Blank shot, Skill, Favoured Weapon, Dodge bonus to AC
2nd: It Builds Up.
3rd: Rapid Shot, Bravery.
4th: Precise Shot, Uncanny Dodge.
5th: Mettle.
6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot.

Summary:
The Fixed Fighter is lacking at the lower levels. Lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes him rather unattractive to people starting at 1st level. I mean, lets take a look at the Crusader. Randomness aside (since most maneouvers are good anyway), you've got delayed damage, almost as many skill points, some supernatural divine abilities, the ability to heal yourself, buff your friends, heal your friends - and it gets better later. 1st level Druid is almost incomparable to this, getting spells, wisdom based abilities, an animal companion. 1st level Cleric can actually be better even without spells thanks to the domains he gets, for example Elf Domain for Point Blank Shot and then a Devotion feat for a bonus, and he can still take Rapid Shot.

The dodge to AC is nice, I'll give it that. But the first level is rather a turn off for me, if I want to be an archer guy. Skills make him slightly more useful, but in the end its going to be the same. There'll be that character in the party who is the diplomat, there'll be the trapkiller. Fighter never was meant to fill those niches, hence his limited skillset. It is nice to have the option, though.


The Two Weapon Fighter

This is a common build, working well from an early level with fighter. What gave fighter the edge on the lower level TWF builds was his bonus feat, allowing the player to take a race that gave ability bonuses. Let's say I go Wood Elf, Str 14 and Dex 18. Not out of the question given ok rolls or a ppoint buy.

1st: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon fighting.
2nd: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Travel Devotion?
4th: Deft Opportunist
6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double hit

Quite effective, not the most optimal build, but can hold it's own in combat. With high dex the guy is harder to hit of course, and all the good things about having higher dex - standing in front of your allies or getting up in the enemies face. Taking two energy weapons will pump his damage and enable him to get a lot of mileage out of the old Haste or Energy Blade spell.

The Fixed Fighter:
1st: Again, this guy loses out since I can't select weapon finesse. That's semi okay. I get a bonus on attack rolls, useful. Picking Light armor style.
2nd: Awsome, I just got pounce. But I still don't have weapon finesse.
3rd: Bravery. Okay. I'll pick up Weapon Finesse.
4th: YES. It Builds Up and I'll take Combat Reflexes.
5th: Mettle. Ok.
6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Double hit. With Double hit my pounced opponent will find it harder to get away.

Okay, on first glance it's a winner. However, there's a definite depreciation in the 1st level, again. 2nd level is just awesome. It builds Up becomes terribly awesome. But still. 5th is meh, 3rd is meh. The two weapon fighter is really good now.


The Greatsword Guy

A straight "I power attack and deal so much damage" build. We start with any race really. Again, the bonus feat at 1st level is a big boon for this guy.
1st: Power Attack. Cleave.
2nd: Improved Sunder/Improved Bull Rush
3rd: Death Devotion or whatever.
4th: Great Cleave.
5th: -
6th: Non-fighter feat (power charge?) and Shock Trooper.

Works nicely. Does nothing else really, but is fun to play. What he lacks in barbarian rage he makes up for by having more feats and things to do with them. Shock trooper makes it nice. Very nice.

The Fixed Fighter:
Again, lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes it less attractive. But still:
1st: Power Attack. Heavy Armor guy, favoured weapon is nice.
2nd: Pounce. Yes please. Roll it into power attack, there's a good chap.
3rd: Cleave, Bravery. Ho hum. Cleave is kinda not so useful now, but hey.
4th: "Ain't Nothing gonna break My stride" and Great Cleave? Yes please.
5th: Mettle. Meh.
6th: Shock Trooper and Improved Bullrush. YES. With the boost to AC from the Heavy Fighter style, Shock Trooper becomes more awesome.

Okay, this build is awesome. Thank you.


Spiked Chain Fighter!

A firm favourite, I've seen. Named after his tripping tricks and spiked chain.
1st: EWP (Spiked Chain). Combat Reflexes.
2nd: Combat Expertise.
3rd: Improved Trip.
4th: Stand Still.
5th: -
6th: Deft Opportunist, something else.

This guy was good at 1st level, got awesome by 3rd and sorta went okay after that. Alot of fun to play, I thought. He's the guy to play if you're looking for a complex fighter. he's pretty versatile as well.

The Fixed Figher
Straight up, no problem with the lack of a bonus feat. We've got chain prof! For the 1st level feat:
1st: Combat Reflexes.
2nd: Cunning Tactics. Thank you. We just got Improved Trip and Disarm, no need for int 13 or anything!
3rd: Bravery. Deft opportunist makes this guy more punishing.
4th: Yay. Injury to Insult, yes please. Then, we take Stand Still, that is nice.
5th: Mettle.
6th: Everything just got more awesome. Thanks. Taking It Builds Up or taking Vigilant Defender? I have a choice. Also taking something like - this is the good thing, I have a free feat at 6th level.

Chain tripper wins big. Cunning tactics is awesome. It Builds Up just gets disgusting when combined with a full trip attack and then AOOs when they do anything, so 2 attacks at 6th, trip on the 2nd, bonus attack, another bonus attack, Then the AOO now has +5d6 damage. Standstill got even better as well.


The Mounted Guy, Don't Knock him.

This build is rather rare, but is pretty cool. Fighter was pretty much the only way to go unless you wanted to burn loads of feats and get pretty much nowhere.
1st: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack
2nd: Spirited Charge
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Wild Cohort.
5th: -
6th: Powerful Charge? Shield Block? Shock Trooper? Free hit.

Can deal insane ammounts of damage, but suffers without the multiple attacks. Straight up lance dealing d8+4+12 Power attack tripled etc. Taking wild Cohort makes your horsey slightly better. Give it Martial Study and Martial Stance (Island of blades) to get you flanking or whatnot, or make it take white raven maneouvers. Charge damage bonuses are nice.

Or you can be funny and give your horse Bind Vestige. Because a warhorse is so pro at summoning ancient spirits and drawing pentagrams.

The fixed Fighter
Oh... It's much harder to do.
1st: Favoured Weapon, meh. I'll take Mounted Combat. Taking the Medium Armor Prof is cool, since it reduces the check penalty to ride checks.
2nd: None of the abilities do much for me. Pounce is cool, but doesn't really work on a mount until later levels. I'll take a feat: Ride by Attack.
3rd: Bravery, Spirited Charge. Damage just bumped up. Alot.
4th: taking 2 bonus feats - Power Attack and Powerful Charge. Nice.
5th: Mettle, meh.
6th: Pounce and Shock Trooper. Yes please. Damage just skyrocketed. Charging is so awsome. Fighter Skills makes Ride easier.

But still. Horsey guy does not really work NEARLY as well as the original fighter. I understand there's meant to be some other class for that, but there isn't really. We lost Wild Cohort, but hey.


All in all, hope that's given some insight into some things that the Fighter Fix lacks, namely, the 1st level bonus feat - it cripples some of the more esoteric builds. I'd like to see more support for mounted fighters and archery fghters... Maybe remove one of the super awsome 4th level thing and give us the boni feat at 1st level? Perhaps some archery focused abilities and mounted abilities. Thanks.

Well Done.

Okay... so Feat at 1st level, is a definite. What about abilities that combine a few mounted feats, or maybe some archery feats? I'll work on this tomorrow. I'm bloody tired now.

And yeah, thanks for your input everyone.

[Samm]

Okay, Sorry for the double post, but I'd just like to update.

I've added a bonus feat at first level, I've moved Fighter's skill to 2nd level and I've dropped the number of skill points down to 4+Int.

I'm also thinking of adding this fighter ability, in response to the Dante's comment about ranged fighters now with this new fix:

Fire!: Gain Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot even if you don't meet the perquisites.

For a mounted build, I'm not quite so sure maybe:

Mounted Manoeuvres: Gain Mounted Combat and Ride by attack, even if you don't meet the prequisities.

Also, I'm thinking of limiting the fighter ability "It Builds Up", so that it only applies during your turn and doesn't include AOOs. Is that a good idea?

[Cadian 9th]

Okay, all of the builds above just got much better.

Mounted Maneouvers is kinda Meh: Perhaps...

Lance and Sword
You thunder towards the enemy, skewering your target on your lance. Even as your foes react, you have drawn your sword and are hacking into them.
Requires Quick Draw
You may attack with a quick drawn sword at the end of a mounted charge in addition to your lance attack. You must have your sword hand free to use this ability.

Thundering Charge
No enemy can stand in your way. You are a tidal wave of martial power, sweeping aside the enemy with no resistance.
Requires Trample
When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

Mount and Rider Bond
Your mount and you have a closer bond than before. Your devotion to each other knows few limits.
Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

Mounted Tactics
Your expertise with mounted combat has reached new hieghts.
You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

I wouldn't give Mounted Combat and the like as bonus feats, because, you don't get a fighter ability till after 1st level and you'll already have those feats.

On archery, I'm not sure. Vital Aim (Dragon Mag) and Dead-eye would be cool.

[Samm]

Okay, all of the builds above just got much better.

Mounted Maneouvers is kinda Meh: Perhaps...

Lance and Sword
You thunder towards the enemy, skewering your target on your lance. Even as your foes react, you have drawn your sword and are hacking into them.
Requires Quick Draw
You may attack with a quick drawn sword at the end of a mounted charge in addition to your lance attack. You must have your sword hand free to use this ability.

Thundering Charge
No enemy can stand in your way. You are a tidal wave of martial power, sweeping aside the enemy with no resistance.
Requires Trample
When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

Mount and Rider Bond
Your mount and you have a closer bond than before. Your devotion to each other knows few limits.
Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

Mounted Tactics
Your expertise with mounted combat has reached new hieghts.
You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

I wouldn't give Mounted Combat and the like as bonus feats, because, you don't get a fighter ability till after 1st level and you'll already have those feats.

On archery, I'm not sure. Vital Aim (Dragon Mag) and Dead-eye would be cool.

Hmm... I like some of these. Mount and Rider bond is definitely a higher level ability, so maybe an Improved Fighter Ability.

Mounted tactics is nice. I'll put that as a Fighter Ability.

Lance and Sword? If that's going ahead, we should make other weapon styles. But it's cool.

With Thundering Charge, I don't think it should have to be mounted. Nor should trample be a perquisite in my opinion. I don't see what they have to do with each other...

Edit: Added Mount and Rider Bond as an Improved Fighter Ability, and Mounted Tactics as a Fighter Ability.

[Cadian 9th]

Umm, no offence Samm, but there's no way that I would take Mount and Rider bond that late. I don't think as an ability giving your Mount the evasion equivalent and a bonus on morale, plus the ability to handle it as a lesser action is worth giving up some of the very nice higher level fighter abilities.

Sounds good otherwise. Thundering Charge should be used with trample because your mount is quite able looking and is coming straight at you. Trample means the target cannot avoid you - and your mount can make attacks against them too. Basically I thought people would be spooked by the fact that the horse is quite the warbeast and is going to knock them flying and trample them.

[Samm]

Okay, I'll bring Mount and Rider Bond forward a little. I'll make it a Fighter Ability.

And yeah, I guess Thundering Charge requiring Trample is justified, but where should it fit? I was thinking a Fighter ability.

[Cadian 9th]

Okay, I'll bring Mount and Rider Bond forward a little. I'll make it a Fighter Ability.

And yeah, I guess Thundering Charge requiring Trample is justified, but where should it fit? I was thinking a Fighter ability.

Cool. 10th level ability to get the slight benefits of a 3rd level animal companion? I'd rather take wild Cohort, thanks.

It could work for any fighter, it just fits more (to me at least) as a mounted charge ability. The bane of every DnD knight charger, the fact that the commoner with simple weapon prof (spear) can, you know, hold his ground and still spear the massive horse on its way in, since he's so disciplined. :smallannoyed:

[Samm]

Cool. 10th level ability to get the slight benefits of a 3rd level animal companion? I'd rather take wild Cohort, thanks.

Yeah, I've moved it so it's available at 2nd level.


It could work for any fighter, it just fits more (to me at least) as a mounted charge ability. The bane of every DnD knight charger, the fact that the commoner with simple weapon prof (spear) can, you know, hold his ground and still spear the massive horse on its way in, since he's so disciplined. :smallannoyed:

Well that's the masive failing of cavalry in real life. As soon as they took on spearmen who would lock ranks and point their spears towards the enemy, the cavalry would fail. They'd either impale themselves on the spears or halt right in front of the spears. Of course if the soldiers broke ranks and ran, they'd get hacked down, that's the point of Thundering Charge I suppose. But where should it kick in?

[Samm]

Sorry for the double post. But here's a bit of an update.

I've changed Knockout blow to Killing blow and drastically improved Headshot. (see perfect fighter abilities)

I've also added Thundering Charge as a Fighter Ability.

Additionally, I've changed Between the ribs to be an automatic critical upon landing the hit.

[Cadian 9th]

All good. I will be testing this homebrew out after my exams. Currently I'm thinking of some of my own abilities to add to the homebrew, if that's ok with you. I'll suggest them as they come up.

[Samm]

All good. I will be testing this homebrew out after my exams. Currently I'm thinking of some of my own abilities to add to the homebrew, if that's ok with you. I'll suggest them as they come up.

Dante, I'm more than happy to hear your suggestions. At the moment this homebrew feels to me like a whole lot of half-baked ideas that really need work on. I think that some of this may need modification.

[Agent_0042]

Bears With Lasers' fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692) gives the fighter Arts of War, which are conveniently enough divided into four categories like your Fighter Abilities, and each category is given out at roughly the same levels. I'm sure there's stuff you can pull from there.

Also, maybe give some gear-related bonuses? Higher carrying capacity, reduced penalties for medium/heavy encumbrance, something like that.

[Samm]

Bears With Lasers' fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692) gives the fighter Arts of War, which are conveniently enough divided into four categories like your Fighter Abilities, and each category is given out at roughly the same levels. I'm sure there's stuff you can pull from there.

Also, maybe give some gear-related bonuses? Higher carrying capacity, reduced penalties for medium/heavy encumbrance, something like that.

Hmm. Some of those abilities are nice, but Bears with Lasers is banned, I'm not sure how to ask permission to use some of his abilities.

Also, yeah, maybe those sort of things may be a good idea. I'm not quite sure how to implement them though.

[Samurai Jill]

*sighs*

Question 1- Why do classes even exist?
Answer- To provide niche protection to players of particular characters in a semi-competitive context.

Question 2- How do I make the Fighter not infringe on other classes' niches while remaining flexible?
Answer- By making the Fighter weaker than other classes when it comes to all their key specialties.

Question 3- How do I make the Fighter equally powerful when compared against those other classes?
Answer- You can't. If you do, there's no reason to pick those other classes. The Fighter would be just as powerful as them, but more flexible. It would be too easy to step on other players' toes.

Question 4- What if I give the Fighter a particular specialty that only he/she can be good at?
Answer- Then it won't be the Fighter anymore.

...Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I have to redirect an unstoppable force around an immovable object.

[BRC]

Stuff
So what you are saying here is that any attempt to "Fix" The fighter is automatically doomed to failure, therefore nobody should even try?

Never mind that the existence of both Sorcerers and Wizards negates your first point, since they both occupy the "Niche" of arcane spellcaster. They are different styles of arcane spellcaster, but they both fulfill the same purpose. By that same regard, Warlocks occupy a similar Niche, how about Duskblades.
By that logic, the Factotum is the ultimate failure of a class, since it, by design, can fulfill a wide variety of roles!

By your reasoning, what is the "Niche" of the Druid? How about the Paladin?

Classes arn't about filling a unique role, they're about providing a unique style of character. Thats why we have Fighters (People generally skilled in combat) Barbarians (People who use go berserk in combat to give them an edge), Paladins (Holy warriors who supplement their martial skills with divine magic), Rangers (Skilled in wilderness survival in addition to combat), Duskblades (People who supplement their martial skills with arcane magic), Monks (People who fight unarmed and unarmored), Swashbucklers (People who rely in speed and intelligence to fight, rather than strength and armor), Knights (People skilled in combat who are focused on defense and are capable of issuing challenges), and probably several other classes I forgot to mention. All of them can be seen as fufilling the "Niche" of "Guy who is good at standard combat", yet they each do it in their own unique way.

Even assuming you're right about the purpose of a class (Which you are not), your argument is totally circular. You're saying that any Fighter Fix is doomed to fail, and that even if they succeed, they fail because it is then not a fighter fix. It's like saying "How do I get my car out of the ditch without it leaving the ditch"

[Samm]

Question 1- Why do classes even exist?
Answer- To provide niche protection to players of particular characters in a semi-competitive context.

Uh, to accomodate different types of character?


Question 2- How do I make the Fighter not infringe on other classes' niches while remaining flexible?
Answer- By making the Fighter weaker than other classes when it comes to all their key specialties.

Yeah I agree totally. Don't give the fighter the ability to rage, or use manoeuvres (in the case of my fix), don't give him a smite attack. Don't give him spell-casting. etc.


Question 3- How do I make the Fighter equally powerful when compared against those other classes?
Answer- You can't. If you do, there's no reason to pick those other classes. The Fighter would be just as powerful as them, but more flexible. It would be too easy to step on other players' toes.

This is actually a reasonable question. The idea is to give the fighter abilities that represent experience and practice, in the field. The Fighter is meant to pick up some tricks that other classes may not be able to pick up on. This is because at the heart of it, the fighter concentrates on combat itself. This is unlike the Barbarian, who concentrates on raging, or the Paladin who concentrates his divine powers. The goal is to make all these classes have equal contributions to the party, but get them in a different manner.


Question 4- What if I give the Fighter a particular specialty that only he/she can be good at?
Answer- Then it won't be the Fighter anymore.

Fighting? Down-to-earth mundane fighting based off experience rather than anger, magic, divine power or weird psuedo-magic (TOB). The idea, this guy focuses on combat; he masters the art of fighting, as opposed to the art of fighting when enraged, with magic, with manoeuvres etc.


...Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I have to redirect an unstoppable force around an immovable object.

I don't know, but that's a little annoying. I mean, it's not really contributing to the thread, or solving the problem.

[Cadian 9th]

Personally I think the fighter does what he's meant to do well, and I can make the fighter works.

HOWEVER. It's only due to my "experience" in building things. Fighters are good since they get bonus feats. They've got some cool ACFs, IMO, and they've got the profs, the Base attack to make them worth it in a pro build. Looking at any uber melee build, you'd be hard pressed to find a build which doesn't include 2 levels of fighter or something.

So, this fix is making it better for everyone to play a fighter, much like a druid can take the most soboptimal feats, taking natural spell and will perform exceptionally well.

I'm all for that.

EDIT:
And for the whole Class Niche thing, I disagree. I believe that the classes represent a mechanical way to potray your character.

For example, Cloud Strife. In terms of his Advent Children version, he can run up walls, jump really high and get into a super power up mode where he strikes alot of times and goes all blue and powerful. He teleport strikes and wields a massive sword.

Now, I'd consider representing him with Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. What? Some people may ask... Well, I pick that since he's got fast movement, athleticskills as class skills, and a power up state where he moves faster and is seemingly super strong. Then he's tough and profficient. I'd pick feats such as Up the Walls and Leap of the Heavens, as well as the wallrunner/walljump skill tricks. I'd multi-class into a smiting/power attack class, not because I think cloud strife is a frothing barbarian, but because I feel the mechanics of those classes represent the character I'm playing's abilities.

[Samm]

Also, maybe give some gear-related bonuses? Higher carrying capacity, reduced penalties for medium/heavy encumbrance, something like that.

I've had a think about this. I've decided on a creating an ability to emulate this, it'll kick in at level 9. So, it'll fill the dead level, but I'm not sure If I really should include it or make it optional, or build it into the class design.

Packhorse: You halve the penalties relating to heavy and medium encumbrance. This doesn't extend to armour though.

What do we think?

[Cadian 9th]

Looks good, Samm. Maybe something other than Packhorse for a name though, its one thing to be below wizards, another to have a class feature called Pack horse.

[Samm]

Looks good, Samm. Maybe something other than Packhorse for a name though, its one thing to be below wizards, another to have a class feature called Pack horse.

Ah... maybe "Ironback"? How does that sound?

[Simba]

This looks pretty solid. Maybe you should consider adding some abilities that help mounted chargers a little more. Train mount, for example, could be an ability that helps you improve the mount's abilities or add one or more fighter abilities to the mount.

[Samm]

This looks pretty solid. Maybe you should consider adding some abilities that help mounted chargers a little more. Train mount, for example, could be an ability that helps you improve the mount's abilities or add one or more fighter abilities to the mount.

Thanks.

Train mount? How would it work? That's a little too similar to the animal companion... I'm not sure, but I think I need to help out mounted builds. I'll probably add Fire! and Mounted Manoeuvres.

[Simba]

Thanks.

Train mount? How would it work? That's a little too similar to the animal companion... I'm not sure, but I think I need to help out mounted builds. I'll probably add Fire! and Mounted Manoeuvres.

Well, a mount does usually not level, right? So it becomes rather weak over time, when the fighter is high leveled and still relies on a normal mount, like a horse. For a mounted fighter, his mount is special and he does not want to retrain a new one after each major encounter. I tried and failed to keep the poor warhorse alive because the enemy kept killing my horse to get me off it.

As a mounted warrior you want a steed that stays with you over the levels, that grows with you and helps you until the end. It is a lot like a Paladin's mount, a Wizard's familiar or Ranger's/Druid's companion so it needs some special love, too. Maybe a fighter could get the ability to call a "knight's warhorse" to be his mount, an animal with some level dependant special features to give it a higher chance to still be alive after the knight charged the dragon.

Some ideas: Create a chain of abilities that improve on a mounted fighter's mount as he levels. Ideas might include:

- templates (warbeast? dire? legendary :smallbiggrin: )
- more HDs
- better resistances (fear, damage, energy)
- higher speed
- better AC
- some tricks of its own

[Samurai Jill]

Uh, to accomodate different types of character?
Classes are binding restrictions upon the kind of character you can make. They reduce the range of potential characters you can make, both before and after chargen. To make different types of character (in terms of mechanical proficiency,) all you need are different skills/spells/feats/etc.

Yeah I agree totally. Don't give the fighter the ability to rage, or use manoeuvres (in the case of my fix), don't give him a smite attack. Don't give him spell-casting. etc.

This is actually a reasonable question. The idea is to give the fighter abilities that represent experience and practice, in the field. The Fighter is meant to pick up some tricks that other classes may not be able to pick up on. This is because at the heart of it, the fighter concentrates on combat itself. This is unlike the Barbarian, who concentrates on raging, or the Paladin who concentrates his divine powers. The goal is to make all these classes have equal contributions to the party, but get them in a different manner...

Fighting? Down-to-earth mundane fighting based off experience rather than anger, magic, divine power or weird psuedo-magic (TOB). The idea, this guy focuses on combat; he masters the art of fighting, as opposed to the art of fighting when enraged...
Why would anyone in their right mind play the guy who can Rage or Smite Evil if the Fighter is just as capable in a tanking capacity and is more flexible to boot? Conversely, if there are classes which can outshine the fighter in any particular party role, pick one guy for each role, and the fighter is redundant. The class is either mandatory or useless.

Flexibility is not a "niche." That's what all these general-purpose bonus feats amount to. And there's no way to get rid of that without the class ceasing to be the Fighter.

I don't know, but that's a little annoying. I mean, it's not really contributing to the thread, or solving the problem.
Of course I'm not 'contributing', because the problem is unsolvable. The very concept of the "Fighter class" defeats the purpose of the class system in the first place, when there are other classes which do Fighting, but are more specialised. 'Fixing' the Fighter is 'notoriously difficult' because it's not actually possible.

[Samm]

Well, a mount does usually not level, right? So it becomes rather weak over time, when the fighter is high leveled and still relies on a normal mount, like a horse. For a mounted fighter, his mount is special and he does not want to retrain a new one after each major encounter. I tried and failed to keep the poor warhorse alive because the enemy kept killing my horse to get me off it.

As a mounted warrior you want a steed that stays with you over the levels, that grows with you and helps you until the end. It is a lot like a Paladin's mount, a Wizard's familiar or Ranger's/Druid's companion so it needs some special love, too. Maybe a fighter could get the ability to call a "knight's warhorse" to be his mount, an animal with some level dependant special features to give it a higher chance to still be alive after the knight charged the dragon.

Some ideas: Create a chain of abilities that improve on a mounted fighter's mount as he levels. Ideas might include:

- templates (warbeast? dire? legendary :smallbiggrin: )
- more HDs
- better resistances (fear, damage, energy)
- higher speed
- better AC
- some tricks of its own
I understand that his warhorse should get stronger as he levels, but I feel that maybe it's better if this would be contained in specific class devoted to being on horseback. That said though, it's a decent idea, and I feel that some of the ideas are good.

Lets see what I can come up with, I'm not sure about the names, so I wont bother with naming them.


Your mount gets a bonus to AC equal your favoured weapon bonus.
Your mount gets a bonus hit dice equal to your favoured weapon bonus.
Your mount gets a bonus to its speed equal to your favoured weapon bonus times 5ft.
Your mount gets your Mettle ability.


I'm not sure about others. I might come back and add to the list later.

Is this idea any good?

[BRC]

Classes are binding restrictions upon the kind of character you can make. They reduce the range of potential characters you can make, both before and after chargen. To make different types of character (in terms of mechanical proficiency,) all you need are different skills/spells/feats/etc.

Why would anyone in their right mind play the guy who can Rage or Smite Evil if the Fighter is just as capable in a tanking capacity and is more flexible to boot? Conversely, if there are classes which can outshine the fighter in any particular party role, pick one guy for each role, and the fighter is redundant. The class is either mandatory or useless.

Flexibility is not a "niche." That's what all these general-purpose bonus feats amount to. And there's no way to get rid of that without the class ceasing to be the Fighter.

Of course I'm not 'contributing', because the problem is unsolvable. The very concept of the "Fighter class" defeats the purpose of the class system in the first place, when there are other classes which do Fighting, but are more specialised. 'Fixing' the Fighter is 'notoriously difficult' because it's not actually possible.
Which is why there are skill-based systems out there, instead of class based. Classes are only a "Binding Restriction" if you start with a purely skill-based system, and then introduce Classes. Dnd is a Class Based System, each class opens up a different type of character.

You're also putting too much emphasis on the name of the class.
Let's look at the Rogue, here are some definitions.
–noun
1.
a dishonest, knavish person; scoundrel.
2.
a playfully mischievous person; scamp: The youngest boys are little rogues.
3.
a tramp or vagabond.
Now, must a person using the rogue class have such a character. Could they not be a police officer who fights dirty, and uses his skills to investigate crimes and uphold the law?
How about the Paladin? The original term referred to one of the 12 greatest champions at Charlemange's court. Yet, must every Dnd Paladin have their backstory as "I was one of the 12 greatest knights in Charlemange's court, and then I got sucked through a wormhole, now I'm in greyhawk".

There is more to the Fighter than "Somebody who Fights". A Fighter is somebody who fights with pure, simple martial skill, no barbarian rage, no divine support, just experience and training.

Why would somebody play a Paladin if a fighter is just as good? Because they don't want their character to be a holy warrior. They want to play somebody who is simply skilled at fighting. Because it fits their character concept. Two Different Classes CAN do the same thing in different ways. If they can't then why have Sorcerers and Wizards? Why have Rogues and Factotums. Why have Marshals and Bards?

In fact, you're argument could be used to say "Remove Barbarians and Paladins, only Fighters" or "Remove Paladins and Fighters, Only Barbarians" or "Remove Barbarians and Fighters, only Paladins". Because apparently it dosn't matter that some people want to play a holy warrior, some want to play a berserker, and some what to play your standard issue skilled warrior.
Your core thesis is that "No Two Classes should fulfill the same role". What are you basing that off of. If you are saying that is the philosophy wizards had when they designed the system, then how do you explain all the classes that do the same thing in different ways? If you think that's the way it Should Be, then you're pretty much talking about creating an entirely new game.


And finally, what exactly is your goal here? Do you intend to make us see the folly of our ways, and stop wasting time attempting to fix the fighter? Do you want us to go out to the four corners of the internet and tell everybody about your brilliant gaming philosophy? What Harm is being done by trying to create a viable fighter class?


Edit: And once again, you have that circular logic. "You can't fix the fighter, because if you fix it, it's not the fighter"

[Samurai Jill]

Which is why there are skill-based systems out there, instead of class based. Classes are only a "Binding Restriction" if you start with a purely skill-based system, and then introduce Classes. Dnd is a Class Based System, each class opens up a different type of character.
It's a class-based system that incorporates feats, skills, and spells, and therefore does impose restrictions on those.

If your goal were to make different kinds of character available, classes would be a very inefficient way to go about it (you'd need 1 class for every permutation of skill investment.) Classes can be used as 'templates' for modelling different social backgrounds within the setting, but then there'd be little or no reason for classes to continue imposing restrictions after chargen. Niche protection is the only logical reason for it.

You're also putting too much emphasis on the name of the class. ...There is more to the Fighter than "Somebody who Fights". A Fighter is somebody who fights with pure, simple martial skill, no barbarian rage, no divine support, just experience and training.
No, I'm just placing emphasis on what the Fighter is considered to be- a general-purpose guy-who-fights-with-weapons, with emphasis on the 'general-purpose.' If you want to ditch the 'general-purpose' bit, fine, go ahead. But then you need to scrap the bonus feats, and suddenly it doesn't "feel" like the Fighter anymore.

...Because it fits their character concept.
Oh, players might well choose a particular class for the sake of role-play considerations- i.e, establishing a distinct personality and motives for the character- but role-play considerations have nothing in particular to do with using Classes.

Wizards and Sorcerors can get along because one is not more general-purpose than the other- the wizard gets access to more spells, but has to memorise them in advance. There's something that the wizard can always do better than the sorceror in a way that matters, and vice versa. They don't do exactly the same thing, but have distinct sub-niches. Rage is really only useful for hitting things with pointy metal sticks- If the fighter can do that equally well, and boast umpteen other configurations, what tactical incentive is there to play a Barbarian?

And yes, you could abolish the Paladin, Monk, Barbarian etc. entirely, replace their class features with feat chains available to anyone, and get essentially the same effect. You really only need one 'class' for every player in the party, and 'Roles' in 4E serve this precise function.

...What Harm is being done by trying to create a viable fighter class?
Only the same harm that is done by trying to square the circle. Look, I don't mean to piss on the OP's parade, but this project is basically misguided.

[BRC]

Well this brings us back to Character Concept.
First, let me see if I understand your argument, I'm going to use Numbers.
Lets say a Barbarian has a score of 5, for the purpose of hitting things with other things.
You say that if a Fighter also has a score of 5, but can also have decent scores with Ranged combat, or Mounted combat, why would anybody play a Barbarian?

Well, first of all, you need to realize that the Fighter, especially this version of it, is a customizable class, more so than most. a Barbarian can be assumed to acquire that 5 through their class features. If a Fighter wants to be just as good as a Barbarian, they would need to focus their feat choices (Or Fighter abilities) on that.
However, the Fighter could also choose to focus on ranged combat, or mounted combat, or area-control, but they would have to spread out. A Fighter who is good at ranged combat, cannot ALSO be as good a melee combat as a Barbarian. Or maybe, rather than specializing, they want to split it up, have a 3 in Ranged and a 3 in Melee, compared to the Barbarian's 5 in meele. The Fighter is only "general purpose" in terms of Potential. They have the Potential to be general purpose, jack of all trades (That involve fighting things), master of none. They have the Potential to be a master archer, the Potential to be an unbreakable bulwark, wading into battle with a sheild and sword, they have the potential to deal loads of raw damage by laying into their foes with the biggest sword they can lift with both hands.

But that's ignoring the big point: Character Concept, you know, what makes a character a character, instead of a mere collection of numbers. The Barbarian has some baggage attached to it fluff wise. What if somebody wants to play a powerful melee character without that baggage? The "Berserker who was raised in the wild" is built into the Barbarian's crunch. Yes, you can refluff stuff. Call Rage "Combat Trance", throw a couple skill points towards literacy, but it's still there. I could jump through hoops to strip away that baggage, allowing me to create the character I want.

Or, I could just use a fighter.
You are right about one thing. Classes ARE an inefficient way to provide for a wide variety of character types, which is why we have lots of classes that do the same thing, to provide for more character types. Sure, in order to fully encompass it, we would need a class for every type of character imaginable. But the more classes we have, and the more customization is possible with those classes, the closer we can get.


In fact, if your goal is to allow for the greatest character customization, you should be CELEBRATING this class. If there was only one "Good at hitting things" class out there, I'd like it to be the fighter. It's much easier to take a Fighter, and add the fluff of a holy warrior or a Berserker, than it is to remove fluff from a Paladin or Barbarian and get your standard guy who is good at fighting.
In a perfect world, there would be a base class built around each potential character concept. One for a raging berserker, one for a two weapon fighter, one for a guy who wields a halberd, one for a guy who throws javelins from horseback, ect. And in a perfect world, they would all be equally viable. Fixes like these are trying to bring the game closer to that.
Your problem isn't with this class, your problem is with the fact that DnD is class based at all.

Only the same harm that is done by trying to square the circle. Look, I don't mean to piss on the OP's parade, but this project is basically misguided.

And yet, that's pretty much exactly what you're doing. The purpose of this thread is to tweak, refine, and balance Samm's version of the fighter as much as possible. Maybe it will never be perfect, but we will try to get it as close as possible. Obviously, we're working on this because we want a Fighter class that is just as viable as other classes. You're taking this thread as a personal soapbox for your views on the very existence of a Fighter class, which normally wouldn't be a big problem, except your way of doing it is to insult us. You are not somebody who has discovered the Big truth everybody else refuses to see. You are somebody with an opinion.

Some people care more about picking a class that best fits their character concept than about raw numbers. What we're trying to do here is make it so the game doesn't penalize them for that. When the day comes that everybody picks classes based only on their numbers, with no consideration of fluff, then you will be right. But until then, please make your own thread to rant about the flawed system, we're trying to homebrew here.

[Samm]

Classes are binding restrictions upon the kind of character you can make. They reduce the range of potential characters you can make, both before and after chargen. To make different types of character (in terms of mechanical proficiency,) all you need are different skills/spells/feats/etc.

However, different classes are needed to accommodate different types of character.


Why would anyone in their right mind play the guy who can Rage or Smite Evil if the Fighter is just as capable in a tanking capacity and is more flexible to boot? Conversely, if there are classes which can outshine the fighter in any particular party role, pick one guy for each role, and the fighter is redundant. The class is either mandatory or useless.

Not really. You might want to play the guy who can rage, or the guy who can Smite Evil, because you like Raging or Smiting Evil. The Fighter cannot be everything at once, he has flexible build choices, but he is not a master archer, master swordsman and ubercharger all at the same time. He can only be one of those. Also, Paladins have spells, and Lay-on Hands, while Barbarian has a different skill list, Rage and Trap Sense. It's different.

See the point of these melee characters, is they achieve the same/similar ends but differently.


Flexibility is not a "niche." That's what all these general-purpose bonus feats amount to. And there's no way to get rid of that without the class ceasing to be the Fighter.

Okay, fine flexibility is not a niche. But, as Fighter you should be able to choose a niche and fill that well. He's got flexibility in his build choices, but beyond that, he's not much more flexible than the other classes. The 3.5 Fighter had bonus feats, he could choose from a whole number of viable builds, but he couldn't be all of them at once. That's the idea, except, back then, you had to be great at optimising to make any of those builds a viable build choice. What I'm trying to do here is make those builds viable for those who can't optimise to that degree.


Of course I'm not 'contributing', because the problem is unsolvable. The very concept of the "Fighter class" defeats the purpose of the class system in the first place, when there are other classes which do Fighting, but are more specialised. 'Fixing' the Fighter is 'notoriously difficult' because it's not actually possible.

Then make your own thread about it. I think you'd be able to actually state your point better and get a little more air time.

If your goal were to make different kinds of character available, classes would be a very inefficient way to go about it (you'd need 1 class for every permutation of skill investment.) Classes can be used as 'templates' for modelling different social backgrounds within the setting, but then there'd be little or no reason for classes to continue imposing restrictions after chargen. Niche protection is the only logical reason for it.

Classes are meant to make different character types viable. The wizard is meant to make spell-casting viable, the Barbarian is meant to make the angry guy who fights stuff viable, etc.

Sure, classes are inefficient, but I'm trying to build a class that is customisable so that a number of different character types are viable. Niche protection doesn't even make sense. Why is there a Swashbuckler and a Rogue? Why is there a Knight, Paladin and Samurai? etc.

No, I'm just placing emphasis on what the Fighter is considered to be- a general-purpose guy-who-fights-with-weapons, with emphasis on the 'general-purpose.' If you want to ditch the 'general-purpose' bit, fine, go ahead. But then you need to scrap the bonus feats, and suddenly it doesn't "feel" like the Fighter anymore.

Well not really. The fighter isn't really general purpose. He has the potential to fulfil a number of roles, but he can't do all of them. So at the end, he is multi-purpose, like every other class (hopefully with my fix).


Wizards and Sorcerors can get along because one is not more general-purpose than the other- the wizard gets access to more spells, but has to memorise them in advance. There's something that the wizard can always do better than the sorceror in a way that matters, and vice versa. They don't do exactly the same thing, but have distinct sub-niches. Rage is really only useful for hitting things with pointy metal sticks- If the fighter can do that equally well, and boast umpteen other configurations, what tactical incentive is there to play a Barbarian?

Hmm. Let's see... Maybe the Barbarian can Rage and boast awesome hitting power for a short time, while the fighter when trying to emulate the Barbarian, can boast decent hitting power all the time?

And when the fighter is trying to fight as well as the barbarian with a metal pointy stick, he can't shoot arrows very well, he can't run around tripping people very well, he can't grapple well, he can't use two weapons etc.


And yes, you could abolish the Paladin, Monk, Barbarian etc. entirely, replace their class features with feat chains available to anyone, and get essentially the same effect. You really only need one 'class' for every player in the party, and 'Roles' in 4E serve this precise function.

But there are quite a few classes in 4E, and many of their roles overlap. The Cleric and the Warlord, the Ranger and the Rogue, etc. However, they fulfil their roles in different ways, so they're not redundant. Because of this, they have advantages and disadvantages over each other, so there is a tactical reason to choose them.

And really, if you're into niche protection, play 3.5E with generic classes. They have one class per niche.


Only the same harm that is done by trying to square the circle. Look, I don't mean to piss on the OP's parade, but this project is basically misguided.

Yeah... Like I said, make you're own thread about it.

Also, I find your logic odd. If we actually fix the fighter and make a number of different build choices viable, you're going to say he's either unbalanced and replaces all the other classes or not the fighter. So yeah, it's impossible in your mind. However, I don't care. What I set out to do, is create a combat-oriented class that can accommodate a variety of builds well, and be decently powerful.

[sariss_eldariss]

hi ladies and gentlemen,

first off lemme say that anything i say is not meant to belittle or insult anyone, secondly its great to finally see a thread dedicated to trying to balance that most generic of all classes (and my personal favourite) the fighter.

samm i think your hard work that has gone into the creation of this class speaks volumes of the type of person you are. i think both yourself and samurai jill and BRC all have very valid points. so here goes my 2 cents worth of opinion.

1. Samm has put in a heck of alot of effort to turn out a class that is more attractive to play than the "vanilla" fighter class (cos it is inherently more powerful, more skills, a few free abilities and better will saves etc).

2. Samurai Jill argues that the class is by definition no longer a fighter as any attempts to change the fighter class changes it because, the feat every other lvl which gives the fighter its amazing flexibility is the very thing that defines the class.

i agree with both of you to an extent, i think that the very flexibility of the warrior is what makes it great, and although i have only played the game since adnd 2nd edition i have always found the fighter as the weakest of all the classes once you hit mid to high lvls. i had hoped that 3.5 would have made it more balanced but alas no such luck.

the main problem at hand is how to make the fighter "better" without making it so good that no one would want to play any other melee class. its not a question i have a definitive answer on.

a setting that has a interesting solution to this problem is the Rokugan campaign setting, they do this by having feat trees that at the top end awesomely powerful but have very interesting lower and middle feats, and since the trees are all mutually exclusive no one fighter can be omnipotent.

i am not sure if samms class is balanced but i would be loath to judge it before i actually gave it a go in a game so i shall show the guys this class and hopefully someone will want to play it and we can see how it goes. i for one am looking forward to see how it pans out.

lastly thank you samm brc and samurai jill for being able to argue a point without turning it into a mindless mudslinging match, refreshin to see that folks can have different points of view without disrespecting each other.

[Samm]

hi ladies and gentlemen,

first off lemme say that anything i say is not meant to belittle or insult anyone, secondly its great to finally see a thread dedicated to trying to balance that most generic of all classes (and my personal favourite) the fighter.

samm i think your hard work that has gone into the creation of this class speaks volumes of the type of person you are. i think both yourself and samurai jill and BRC all have very valid points. so here goes my 2 cents worth of opinion.

1. Samm has put in a heck of alot of effort to turn out a class that is more attractive to play than the "vanilla" fighter class (cos it is inherently more powerful, more skills, a few free abilities and better will saves etc).

2. Samurai Jill argues that the class is by definition no longer a fighter as any attempts to change the fighter class changes it because, the feat every other lvl which gives the fighter its amazing flexibility is the very thing that defines the class.

i agree with both of you to an extent, i think that the very flexibility of the warrior is what makes it great, and although i have only played the game since adnd 2nd edition i have always found the fighter as the weakest of all the classes once you hit mid to high lvls. i had hoped that 3.5 would have made it more balanced but alas no such luck.

the main problem at hand is how to make the fighter "better" without making it so good that no one would want to play any other melee class. its not a question i have a definitive answer on.

a setting that has a interesting solution to this problem is the Rokugan campaign setting, they do this by having feat trees that at the top end awesomely powerful but have very interesting lower and middle feats, and since the trees are all mutually exclusive no one fighter can be omnipotent.

i am not sure if samms class is balanced but i would be loath to judge it before i actually gave it a go in a game so i shall show the guys this class and hopefully someone will want to play it and we can see how it goes. i for one am looking forward to see how it pans out.

lastly thank you samm brc and samurai jill for being able to argue a point without turning it into a mindless mudslinging match, refreshin to see that folks can have different points of view without disrespecting each other.

Thanks, Sariss. It's nice to see your take on the issue.

I understand that flexibility is supposed to be a big feature of the fighter class. It's not flexibility of a fighter, but a flexibility of builds, that's how I take it. So, consequently, my optional abilities and bonus feats. But is that enough? I don't really know, I think I made it more viable, but many of the abilities are a little rough and need polishing. So if anyone wants to have a look at them, go ahead.

I've had a look at them in my head, but that's probably not good enough. I'm not an optimiser at heart, so I can't really judge so well. So I'd love a comprehensive critique.

[Samurai Jill]

You say that if a Fighter also has a score of 5, but can also have decent scores with Ranged combat, or Mounted combat, why would anybody play a Barbarian?

Well, first of all, you need to realize that the Fighter, especially this version of it, is a customizable class, more so than most. a Barbarian can be assumed to acquire that 5 through their class features. If a Fighter wants to be just as good as a Barbarian, they would need to focus their feat choices (Or Fighter abilities) on that... They have the Potential to be a master archer, the Potential to be an unbreakable bulwark, wading into battle with a sheild and sword, they have the potential to deal loads of raw damage by laying into their foes with the biggest sword they can lift with both hands.
That's my precise point. A balanced Fighter has (or would have?) the capacity to be just as good as the Barbarian at the aforementioned pointy-metal-stick-whacking, but also has the capacity to be just as good as the Ranger at pointy-metal-projectile-lobbing, or even just as good as the Monk at fleshy-fist-thumping. The balanced Fighter could do everything these classes can do best (albeit not at once,) and- crucially- has a choice in the matter.

The only tactical purpose to having these different classes in the first place is to prevent different players from overshadowing eachother by making it impossible to replicate the specialities of other classes. The Fighter is built to ignore that.

But that's ignoring the big point: Character Concept, you know, what makes a character a character, instead of a mere collection of numbers. The Barbarian has some baggage attached to it fluff wise. What if somebody wants to play a powerful melee character without that baggage? The "Berserker who was raised in the wild" is built into the Barbarian's crunch. Yes, you can refluff stuff. Call Rage "Combat Trance", throw a couple skill points towards literacy, but it's still there. I could jump through hoops to strip away that baggage, allowing me to create the character I want.
Again, picking a particular kind of character for the sake of "fluff"- or role-play considerations- is all well and good, but that is not the function of the Class system.

You are right about one thing. Classes ARE an inefficient way to provide for a wide variety of character types, which is why we have lots of classes that do the same thing, to provide for more character types.
But you don't need to. All you need are feat chains to accomodate different backgrounds. e.g, if you want to play a Barbarian, pick the Fighter class, then take Rage and Survivalist as two of your starting feats, possibly tied in to a Background system that determines the range of possible starting feats and skills. D&D already has an elaborate skill and feat system in place that could easily handle this kind of customisation.

In fact, if your goal is to allow for the greatest character customization, you should be CELEBRATING this class. If there was only one "Good at hitting things" class out there, I'd like it to be the fighter. It's much easier to take a Fighter, and add the fluff of a holy warrior or a Berserker...
...Your problem isn't with this class, your problem is with the fact that DnD is class based at all.
No, what I am saying is that you need to either:

(A) Remove the versatility of the Fighter so that it can be equally powerful but doesn't conflict with other martial classes' niches, OR
(B) Get rid of the other martial classes, OR
(C) Get rid of the Fighter, OR
(D) Sit down before you hurt yourself.

I am not saying that you should use Classes or not use Classes. I am saying that Classes serve one very specific function, which is very useful in that context but either does not help or actively interferes with other priorities in play. Creating a class whose very function is not being limited to a single niche is like taking a shower while wearing a raincoat. Raincoats are fine and dandy! Showers are fine and dandy! But mixing the two does not make any damn sense!

[Samurai Jill]

However, different classes are needed to accommodate different types of character.
As I've touched on before, no, they are not. All you need for that are different skills/feats/spells etc. Classes sole function is to limit your access to those so that you don't wind up treading on other players' specialties.

Not really. You might want to play the guy who can rage, or the guy who can Smite Evil, because you like Raging or Smiting Evil.
Again, classes do not exist to support role-play. If you want more flexibility, do it with feat-chains.

Okay, fine flexibility is not a niche. But, as Fighter you should be able to choose a niche and fill that well.
The problem is that you can choose someone else's 'niche' and fill that well. You'd have both power AND choice, which defeats the purpose of using classes!

Maybe the Barbarian can Rage and boast awesome hitting power for a short time, while the fighter when trying to emulate the Barbarian, can boast decent hitting power all the time?
...How long do most combats last, and what is the average barbarian's Con score?

Sure, Paladins can heal and Barbarians can sense traps, but if you have a Cleric and Rogue in the party, those are almost never useful.

But there are quite a few classes in 4E, and many of their roles overlap. The Cleric and the Warlord, the Ranger and the Rogue, etc. However, they fulfil their roles in different ways...
Exactly. They all have distinct niches. None of them are more general-purpose than the other, including the 4E Fighter.

Look, I'm going to leave it there. This argument can't go on much further without going in circles. Just don't say I didn't warn ya.

[Samm]

As I've touched on before, no, they are not. All you need for that are different skills/feats/spells etc. Classes sole function is to limit your access to those so that you don't wind up treading on other players' specialties.

Again, classes do not exist to support role-play. If you want more flexibility, do it with feat-chains.

The problem is that you can choose someone else's 'niche' and fill that well. You'd have both power AND choice, which defeats the purpose of using classes!

...How long do most combats last, and what is the average barbarian's Con score?

Sure, Paladins can heal and Barbarians can sense traps, but if you have a Cleric and Rogue in the party, those are almost never useful.

Exactly. They all have distinct niches. None of them are more general-purpose than the other, including the 4E Fighter.

Look, I'm going to leave it there. This argument can't go on much further without going in circles. Just don't say I didn't warn ya.

Whatever. I'm happy for you to leave it there. I'm not even going to bother grabbing the last word. I might argue about this in a different thread, but I'd rather it isn't done, here. This thread appears derailed enough already.

[BRC]

Alright, class wise.

I'm feeling abit iffy about "It was Inevitable", I mean, it's a good ability, but it seems like it opens the way for some serious PA cheese, yes it's available only at 18th level, but think about it this way.
At 18th level, a Fighter could use this ability, power attack for 18, and (If wielding a two handed weapon) deal a guaranteed 36 damage. With Leap Attack that's 54 damage, not counting weapon damage, strength bonus, or a gazillion other bonuses.
Yes you can achieve this with Shock Trooper Cheese, but I'm a little iffy about just handing them a class feature that lets them pull it off once a round without Shock Trooper.
Also, a fighter who has this and Critical Strike can, as a full round action, automatically deal maximum damage.
Personally, I'd have "It Was Inevitable" work once every 3 rounds or something, maybe once every 1d4 rounds.

Also, you might want to state that, while Critical Strike stacks with Lasting Wounds, it does NOT stack with other abilities or effect that happen on a critical.

[Samm]

Alright, class wise.

I'm feeling abit iffy about "It was Inevitable", I mean, it's a good ability, but it seems like it opens the way for some serious PA cheese, yes it's available only at 18th level, but think about it this way.
At 18th level, a Fighter could use this ability, power attack for 18, and (If wielding a two handed weapon) deal a guaranteed 36 damage. With Leap Attack that's 54 damage, not counting weapon damage, strength bonus, or a gazillion other bonuses.
Yes you can achieve this with Shock Trooper Cheese, but I'm a little iffy about just handing them a class feature that lets them pull it off once a round without Shock Trooper.
Also, a fighter who has this and Critical Strike can, as a full round action, automatically deal maximum damage.
Personally, I'd have "It Was Inevitable" work once every 3 rounds or something, maybe once every 1d4 rounds.

Also, you might want to state that, while Critical Strike stacks with Lasting Wounds, it does NOT stack with other abilities or effect that happen on a critical.

Okay, so once every 1d4 rounds? But you know, this is the level where Wizards and Sorcerers are rearranging the universe on a whim, so I'm not sure. What about every 2 rounds?

Okay, I see where your at about Critical Strike. Thanks. I'll fix that.

Edit: Fixed Critical Strike, added Ironback, and fixed some minor issues with formatting and text.

[sariss_eldariss]

hi again folkses,

yeah samm im also having issues with the inevitable ability, it is as brc said a awesome ability but it can be seriously misused by naughty folkses. how about it you word it so that once per round any attack roll that misses can be forced to either "reroll" or to "hit" but dealing only normal damage (i.e. any power attack and such does not apply, specialisation and normal str bonus still do) that way folks can be encouraged to go for that mega soooper doooper power attack leaping frenzy 2 handed chop shot of dooooom, and know if they miss they at least get 1 shot at nermal bonuses kinda like a missed fireball does half damage.

...i know its your class and all...but "ironback"...the others they shall mock me without mercy when i tell em the name of said ability, not to mention the slightly lewd jokes that will fill the gaming evening....oh hold on its ironback not ironbutt...never mind go on:smallbiggrin:

[Samm]

yeah samm im also having issues with the inevitable ability, it is as brc said a awesome ability but it can be seriously misused by naughty folkses. how about it you word it so that once per round any attack roll that misses can be forced to either "reroll" or to "hit" but dealing only normal damage (i.e. any power attack and such does not apply, specialisation and normal str bonus still do) that way folks can be encouraged to go for that mega soooper doooper power attack leaping frenzy 2 handed chop shot of dooooom, and know if they miss they at least get 1 shot at nermal bonuses kinda like a missed fireball does half damage.

Oh, I see. That's an interesting idea. If the attack misses, it deals half damage, but doesn't give out effects. This ability would be usable X times per round or per encounter... However, I don't really see the issue with giving the fighter an extra 54 damage at 19th level, once per turn. He deserves some love in my mind. And besides, I'm sure the TOB manoeuvres can deal more damage, with less effort.

See, I'm not sure about this. It's complicated. I'm just gonna go with my gut feeling and probably give it to him once every 2 rounds.


...i know its your class and all...but "ironback"...the others they shall mock me without mercy when i tell em the name of said ability, not to mention the slightly lewd jokes that will fill the gaming evening....oh hold on its ironback not ironbutt...never mind go on:smallbiggrin:

Uh... Okay...

[BRC]

Really, I'm more worried about Critical Strike cheese than Power Attack Cheese. Critical Strike on it's own is very powerful, because a Fighter attacking at their full BAB is probably going to hit even without "It was inevitable", and maximized damage is huge. That ability is essentially "Do not, under ANY circumstances, end your turn next to a fighter above 10th level, because he can Coup De Grace you without rendering you helpless." I could see it if it was normal critical damage, powerful, but you're giving up a full attack to pull it off. Maximized critical damage however....

[Milskidasith]

Defensive Styles: At 1st, you may choose one of the defensive styles from the following:

Unarmoured:
You get armour proficiency with Padded armour. As an unarmoured fighter, you gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to your Dexterity modifier when wearing Padded or no armour. You also gain a +10ft bonus to speed when wearing no armour.
Light:
You gain armour proficiency with light armour and shields. When wearing Light armour or less, you add 1/2 your Dex modifier (minimum 1) to your AC as a dodge bonus and you gain a +5ft bonus to speed.
Medium:
You gain armour proficiency with medium armour and shields. You also gain +2 to your hitpoints per Fighter level. You also may subtract -1 from the Armour Check penalties when wearing medium armour or less. This increases to -2 at 7th level, and -3 at 20th level.
Heavy:
You gain proficiency with heavy armour and shields, including tower shields. You also gain +2 hitpoints per Fighter level. You gain a +1 bonus to AC. This increase to +2 at 7th level and +3 at 20th level

Interesting. The problem with this is that picking at level 1 doesn't work out because most people will still get mithral armor, which means heavy would want to switch to medium, but not at level 1. In fact, since you can't afford heavy armor at level one (or at least not platemail)... kinda bad.


Favoured Weapon: At 1st level, Choose a favoured weapon. When wielding this weapon you gain a +1/4 Fighter Level bonus +1 to attack, damage, disarm, sunder and trip rolls.

Needs to be reworded and state the minimum bonus. Straight numbers, so not really amazing. Sucks you have no way of repicking, since, again, your level 1 weapon is *not* going to be something you will keep, at least not all the time.


Bonus Feat: At 1st and 4th levels, and every three levels afterwards, you may select a bonus feat from the Fighter Feat list.

Same 'ole fighter. Moving on...


Stunning Strike: as per Stunning Fist except you can use a weapon. Furthermore the DC is based off Str or Dex whichever is higher.

Sort of useful.


Thundering Charge When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

AoO negation is fine, getting rid of readied actions is a bit more iffy.


Dirty Fighting: As a standard action, or as part of a full attack, you may sacrifice a normal attack in exchange for a dirty fighting check. You make the attack and damage rolls as normal, but the attack deals no damage. Instead, the target must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 5+damage that would have been dealt) or be treated as flat footed for 1 round.

Neat.


Uncanny Dodge: You gain the ability Uncanny Dodge, as per the Barbarian.

An OK ability.


Goad: At 3rd level, as a swift action, you may to goad all enemies within 100ft. All enemies of that can hear and see you must make a will save (DC = 10 + Fighter Level) or attack you by any means necessary. This effect last until the begining of your next turn. You may goad the enemies 1/2 Fighter level times per encounter.

Yeah, the save on this needs to be fixed to scale the way most abilities do, but it's neat otherwise. As a swift action, though, this is pretty powerful at level 1, though I assume it's mind affecting, so it drops off later.


Fire!:Gain Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot even if you don't meet the perquisites.

Since you can already pick up feats, this is a bit odd.


Mounted Manoeuvres: Gain Mounted Combat and Ride by attack, even if you don't meet the prequisities.

See above.


Shield Ally: As an immediate action you may opt to absorb half the damage given to an ally. He takes half damage, you take half damage. This lasts until your next turn, and you may absorb any physical damage

Define physical, and give this a range.


Cumulative Momentum: For each missed attack in a full attack you may add a +2 on your next attack this round. This stacks. For example if you make 2 attacks and miss both of them, you will gain a +4 bonus on your third attack.

So this basically means you get -3 per iterative *if* you're missing. Not really a great ability.


Mounted Tactics: You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

This is... interesting. Probably not useful without optimizing the mount, though.


It Builds Up: After each successful hit add 1d6 damage to the next hit. This stacks. For example if you make 2 successful attacks, the next gains a bonus 2d6 damage.

This needs a duration, because if it lasts the entire encounter, it's nuts; even if it lasts until you miss, it's still nuts. Hell, even if it's per round and lasts until your miss, this is still a *very* powerful ability for people who get lots of attacks.


A Major Distraction: Enemies that take a hit from a fighter, they take a penalty to their AC equal to 1/2 your Fighter Level until your next turn.

So, effectively, if you hit an enemy you and all your allies get (up to) a +10 attack bonus against that enemy. This needs to be nerfed into the ground, because that's absurd. Maybe if you had to forgo an attack and they got a reflex save, but just getting that automatically is very powerful.


Keep it coming: After a fighter lands a critical hit he gains Temporary HP equal to a quater of the damage dealt. This doesn't include DR or resistances.

I... just think this needs to be removed, or given a cap at the very least. And a duration. In fact, go through all of these abilities and make sure they have a duration, in case I missed any. If the HP lasts one round and has a cap equal to your fighter level * 2, I'd consider this a useful ability without being too powerful. Also, I have no clue if the last sentence refers to the temporary HP not getting the benefit of your DR or resistance, or if it means it only counts damage you dealt past resistances; if it's the latter, you can cut it, because that is implied.


Cunning Tactics:[/B] You gain Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as bonus feats.

Brutish Tactics: You gain Improved Grapple and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats.

See the above "two feat" things.


Mount and Rider Bond: Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

Not bad.


Ain't Nothing Gonna Break My Stride: You gain a +4 bonus to armor class against any attacks of opportunity you provoke by charging or bull rushing. In addition, you may charge over uneven terrain.

This is good.


Injury To Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time you successfully trip or disarm an opponent, you may make an attack at your full attack bonus. This stacks with Improved Trip.

Problem: Recursive tripping. Any trip attack now provokes two attacks, and you can still trip the enemy. Make this one bonus attack per round per opponent, and it's good.


Vigilant Defender: If an opponent attempts to use the Tumble skill to move through your threatened area or your space without provoking attacks of opportunity, the Tumble check DC to avoid your attacks of opportunity increases by an amount equal to your class level.

This should probably be a function of tumble to begin with, but neat, even if it won't really stop anybody who has good tumble optimization (or even half decent tumble optimization).


Pounce: You gain the ability Pounce. If you charge a foe, you may make a full attack.

Nice.


Float like a Butterfly: You gain Dodge and Mobility as Bonus Feats.


If these can already emulate feats, giving away two bundled feats seems a little odd. Just restating that.


Fighter's Skill: At 2nd level, choose a skill from the following: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim and Tumble. Add 1/2 of your Fighter level (minimum 1) to skill checks of this type.

Not bad.


Bravery: At 3rd level, you gain a bonus to saves against harmful fear and morale effects equal to 1/2 your Fighter level.

Not bad.


Mettle: At 5th level, If you make a Will save or Fortitude save that has an effect on a successful save (such as the damage on a successful save vs. Disintegrate), you take no effect on a successful save (i.e., ‘Will half’ and ‘Fortitude partial’ become ‘Will none’ and ‘Fortitude’ none for you).

Useful.


Ironback: At 9th level, you halve the penalties relating to heavy and medium encumbrance. This doesn't extend to armour though.

This is pretty useless due to extradimensional storage space.


Mage Fighter: At You gain the feat Mage Slayer even if you don't meet the prequisites. Additionally, if caster attempts to cast a spell normally, when they provoke an Attack of Opportunity, their concentration check is raised by your Fighter level.

Not bad.


Lasting Wounds: On a successful critical, you deal 1d4 + 1/2 Fighter level Constitution damage. You may take a -4 penalty to your attack and attempt to deal this damage as a standard action.

Uhh... yeah, 1d4+10 con damage is *way* too much.


Between the Ribs: When attacking flatfooted targets, on a successful hit, you deal damage as if you've scored a critical and made the confirmation roll.

L-L-L-LIGHTNING MACESSSSSSSSSSS! Or L-L-L-LASTING WOUNDS! Dirty fighting + their -1/2 fighter level AC penalty + this + Lasting Wounds = 3d4 + 1.5x fighter level con damage without any bonus attacks, or... the enemy is dead. Or takes infinite damage, due to L-L-L-LIGHTNING MACESSSSSSSSS!

I'd just grant sneak attack, TBH.


Critical Strike: As a full action you may make an attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack, upon hitting does maxed critical damage. This stacks with lasting wounds, but does not stack with any other critical related abilities.

That's... pretty bad unless you aren't hitting with your iteratives, which you should due to the -10 AC thing.


Between the scales: Ignore up to 1/2 your Fighter level in DR, when making an attack on an opponent.

10 bonus damage on specific opponents, basically. Not bad.


Attack not the ally: When an enemy within reach attacks deals damage to an ally, you may attack immediately attack the enemy, once per round at your highest attack bonus.

Does this take an immediate action?


Improved Mage Fighter: (requires Mage Fighter) You gain the feats Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection even if you don't meet the prequisites.

Two feats again... :smallfrown:


Improved Mettle: As per Mettle, except upon a failed throw, you receive only the partial effect.

Useful.


Fight On: At 15th level, you may ignore any single attack, spell or supernatural effect for a total number of rounds per day equal to 1/2 your Fighter level plus your Constitution Modifirer. The effect doesn't affect you in any way at all until you run out of rounds, or choose to let the effect effect you. You may make saves to overcome that effect during that time.

This is... pretty powerful combined with the other defensive options, and you *probably* won't run out of rounds unless the attack is something that actually killed you.

Master Fighter Abilities: At 16th and 18th levels, you may select an ability from this list. If you wish, instead, you may may select a fighter ability, an improved fighter ability or a bonus feat.


Fight Back: Once per round, after taking damage, as an immediate action, you may attack back at your highest attack bonus.

This is strictly worse than the one about your allies getting attacked, unless you aren't your own ally.


Limb Severing Blow: Once per turn you may make an attack as part of as a standard or as part of a full attack. If this attack hits it will temporarily destroy an enemies limb, if the enemy fails (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Str) Fortitude save. The possible targeted limbs include: Hand, Arm or a Leg.

The effects are...?


Another One Bites the Dust: (requires Cunning Tactics) Once per turn on a successful attack, you may trip an opponent. You don't need to make the touch attack. If the trip attemtp fails, then the opponent cannot react to trip you.

So... you get the ability to make trip attacks? Don't you already have that?


Bulwark of Defence:If an opponent begins in a square you threaten, he treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

Pretty good.

Bloodlust:You may double your attacks made in a full round once per encounter.

Very, very, very good; it's essentially Time Stands Still, but... actually, no, it's pretty much just Time Stands Still.


Through the Armour: Once per turn, instead of making a normal attack, you may make an attack that targets the target's touch AC.

This is a very useful ability.


It was Inevitable: Once per turn, on of your attacks is a automatic hit. However this doesn't count as a critical for the purposes of other abilities.

With the touch attack one, you'll basically never miss.


Killing Blow: As a standard action you may make an attack. This attack, if it hits, does normal damage, however, the enemy must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Str) or die.

Should be str mod. Not a bad ability, though it doesn't say how often you can do this.


Head Shot: Once per turn, you may make an attack as a standard action or part of a full attack. If this attack hits, it deals normal damage. In addition, it will permanently destroy somebody's head, torso, or limbs if the enemy fails a (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Str) Fortitude save. Creatures not vulnerable to critical hits are unaffected by this ability. Requires Limb Severing Blow.

Again, this doesn't actually give the penalty for destroying limbs.


A Good Fighter Never Falls: Once every 3 encounters, when reduced to below 0 hit points, you may make a Fighter level check (d20+fighter level). Divide the result by 5. You may keep fighting normally for this many rounds below 0hp, even if brought to -10hp. When this ability wears off, the current state of your hit points affects you again.

You already get this a lot earlier with your "ignore one spell/attack/whatever" ability, though this lets you survive multiple killing blows and doesn't let you survive instadeath.

So far, there are quite a lot of wording issues (especially abilities having no duration) and some rather absurd things. It's certainly better than the fighter, and it may be T3, but it's a lot clunkier than a warblade to pick all these abilities and most of them are just "increase damage" or "increase to hit" which doesn't really help, while the ToB classes have more variety. You do get some defensive moves, and they're basically must takes (the "ignore an effect for far longer than the encounter" happens is very nice), but mostly, it's just some attack bonuses, or auto hits, or attack bonuses in all but name, or damage bonuses, or damage bonuses in all but name. Also, there's no TWF support and no mount support past the lower abilities, which makes me sad.

[Samm]

Interesting. The problem with this is that picking at level 1 doesn't work out because most people will still get mithral armor, which means heavy would want to switch to medium, but not at level 1. In fact, since you can't afford heavy armor at level one (or at least not platemail)... kinda bad.

Good point. Should there be a buff to Heavy Armour, say +4 hp per level instead of only +2? Or an increased AC bonus, say +1 every 4 levels?

Or a nerf to the rest?


Needs to be reworded and state the minimum bonus. Straight numbers, so not really amazing. Sucks you have no way of repicking, since, again, your level 1 weapon is *not* going to be something you will keep, at least not all the time.

Fair enough. I'll reword it. I was intending to have it retrainable, with 1 hour of training.


Same 'ole fighter. Moving on...

Well, I don't see any issues with giving him some of the charm the old fighter had.


Sort of useful.

Cool.


AoO negation is fine, getting rid of readied actions is a bit more iffy.

So, should I get rid of the readied action clause?


Neat.

Thanks.



Yeah, the save on this needs to be fixed to scale the way most abilities do, but it's neat otherwise. As a swift action, though, this is pretty powerful at level 1, though I assume it's mind affecting, so it drops off later.

Okay, so you'd suggest the DC would be: 10+1/2 Fighter Level+Charisma Modifier?


Since you can already pick up feats, this is a bit odd... See above.

Well, the idea is that you can get these without meeting the perquisites and you'd get two of them, so it'd kinda help (I hope) with ranged builds.


Define physical, and give this a range.

Fair enough, I'll give it a range; adjacent. I'll also define physical; damage that wasn't derived from a spell-like or supernatural ability.


So this basically means you get -3 per iterative *if* you're missing. Not really a great ability.

Should I make the ability for the next attack and increase the bonus to +4?


This needs a duration, because if it lasts the entire encounter, it's nuts; even if it lasts until you miss, it's still nuts. Hell, even if it's per round and lasts until your miss, this is still a *very* powerful ability for people who get lots of attacks.

Okay. That's a good point. I'll fix that.


So, effectively, if you hit an enemy you and all your allies get (up to) a +10 attack bonus against that enemy. This needs to be nerfed into the ground, because that's absurd. Maybe if you had to forgo an attack and they got a reflex save, but just getting that automatically is very powerful.

Okay. I'll give them a reflex save. DC=10+Fighter Level? Or DC=10+1/2 Fighter Level+ Cha? Or something else?


I... just think this needs to be removed, or given a cap at the very least. And a duration. In fact, go through all of these abilities and make sure they have a duration, in case I missed any. If the HP lasts one round and has a cap equal to your fighter level * 2, I'd consider this a useful ability without being too powerful. Also, I have no clue if the last sentence refers to the temporary HP not getting the benefit of your DR or resistance, or if it means it only counts damage you dealt past resistances; if it's the latter, you can cut it, because that is implied.

I'll cap at exactly what you said. And the last sentence; I'll fix that up.


Problem: Recursive tripping. Any trip attack now provokes two attacks, and you can still trip the enemy. Make this one bonus attack per round per opponent, and it's good.

Key point is successful trip attack. Did you overlook that?:smallconfused: So, you're not actually tripping continuously.


This should probably be a function of tumble to begin with, but neat, even if it won't really stop anybody who has good tumble optimization (or even half decent tumble optimization).

Fair enough.


If these can already emulate feats, giving away two bundled feats seems a little odd. Just restating that.

Yeah... well, like I said, I'll add in the clause that you don't have to meet the perquisites.


This is pretty useless due to extradimensional storage space.

Okay. Should I change it or just leave it? I don't see the issue in leaving it as is...



Uhh... yeah, 1d4+10 con damage is *way* too much.

Okay... I'll tone it down. How about 1/4 Fighter level instead of 1/2?


L-L-L-LIGHTNING MACESSSSSSSSSSS! Or L-L-L-LASTING WOUNDS! Dirty fighting + their -1/2 fighter level AC penalty + this + Lasting Wounds = 3d4 + 1.5x fighter level con damage without any bonus attacks, or... the enemy is dead. Or takes infinite damage, due to L-L-L-LIGHTNING MACESSSSSSSSS!

I'd just grant sneak attack, TBH.

Yeah, I'll give them extra damage dice, instead of this...


That's... pretty bad unless you aren't hitting with your iteratives, which you should due to the -10 AC thing.

Okay should it be as a standard action?


10 bonus damage on specific opponents, basically. Not bad.

Okay, cool.


Does this take an immediate action?

Should it? I was thinking no.



This is strictly worse than the one about your allies getting attacked, unless you aren't your own ally.

You aren't your own ally.


The effects are...? See the limb-loss variant I linked to in my OP.


So... you get the ability to make trip attacks? Don't you already have that?

For free. Like a wolf. Unless I worded that poorly.


With the touch attack one, you'll basically never miss.

I should add they stack. Or is that a good idea?


Should be str mod. Not a bad ability, though it doesn't say how often you can do this.

Yeah. I'll get to that.


Again, this doesn't actually give the penalty for destroying limbs.

See Psionic Dog's Limb loss variant. It was linked to in my OP.


You already get this a lot earlier with your "ignore one spell/attack/whatever" ability, though this lets you survive multiple killing blows and doesn't let you survive instadeath.

Should I make it give immunity to death effects during that period?


So far, there are quite a lot of wording issues (especially abilities having no duration) and some rather absurd things. It's certainly better than the fighter, and it may be T3, but it's a lot clunkier than a warblade to pick all these abilities and most of them are just "increase damage" or "increase to hit" which doesn't really help, while the ToB classes have more variety. You do get some defensive moves, and they're basically must takes (the "ignore an effect for far longer than the encounter" happens is very nice), but mostly, it's just some attack bonuses, or auto hits, or attack bonuses in all but name, or damage bonuses, or damage bonuses in all but name. Also, there's no TWF support and no mount support past the lower abilities, which makes me sad.

Okay. So more TWF and more mount support. Along with some more manouever-esque abilities... And better wording. I should fix most of the wording issues soon. But yeah, I need to create a number of abilities.

Edit: Thanks. I've made several changes. I've fixed most of the wording issues (I think). I've also fixed a number of the fighter abilities, including Keep it Coming, A Major Distraction, It Builds Up, and Between the Ribs. I've also limited Fight On to non-deadly affects. I'm a little busy now so I'm going to probably create those abilities later.

[Samm]

Okay, a little bit of an update. I've come to the conclusion that TWF has a decent level of support. Abilities that benefit multiple attacks will benefit it. So, It Builds Up, will help it greatly, along with Bloodlust and some other things.

I understand that with mounted builds there is little support past the early levels. So, I've decided I'd run some ideas by all of us. I don't know what I'm going to call these, so it'd be great if you could suggest abilities or names.

How do these sound?

•Your mount gets a bonus to AC equal your favoured weapon bonus.
•Your mount gets a bonus hit dice equal to your favoured weapon bonus.
•Your mount gets a bonus to its speed equal to your favoured weapon bonus times 5ft.
•Your mount gets a bonus to attack and damage equal to your favoured weapon bonus.
•Your mount doubles it's carrying capacity (After level 9)

I've also fixed up a few issues with Another One Bites the Dust and added the clause "even if you don't meet the prerequisites" to Float like a Butterfly. Additionally, I've increased the bonus to AC given by adopting the Heavy Armour Defensive style to be equal to your favoured weapon bonus. Furthermore, I've fixed up the Favoured Weapon Ability and added the bonus it gives to the table.

[Cadian 9th]

Above fixes sound cool; I like em all!

Please add to the OP :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and Samm? Could you add some of the good Dragonmag Fighter ACFs and the Hit and Run ACF? Its a shame to see them incompatible. Maybe make them fighter abilities or something.

[Samm]

Nice, That's good to hear. I've added them, complete with crummy names.

Okay, the bonus to AC for your mount is called Mounted Defence and the bonus to attack and damage for you mount is called Mounted Aggression. Both of these are both Fighter Abilities. The bonus to carrying capacity for the mount is called Packhorse, and the bonus to speed is called Accelerate!. These are both Improved Fighter Abilities. The bonus hitdice is called Mounted Toughness. It's a Master Fighter Ability.

I'm not sure how I should define the word "mount" in this context. Maybe, I should have you choose a mount, for these abilities to work on. It can change, but, for these abilities to work on the new mount, you must spend an hour training with it. Does this sound like a good idea? Because otherwise, I can see people getting 15 different mounts to apply all these abilities on...

[BRC]

Alright, slight thing.
I'd change the wording on "It was Inevitable", right now it sounds like it's an automatic crit that dosn't trigger any crit-based effects but still deals critical damage.
I'd make it just say "You automatically hit", and not mention crit's at all.
As has been mentioned above, with "Through the armor", you essentially get two auto-hits a round, and full BaB classes don't miss alot anyway.
Does Favored Weapon refer to a specific weapon, or a type of weapon (You're grandfathers +3 Longsword or Longswords in general).

Maybe give all fighters a "Designate Mount" ability (Needs a different name). You spend some time training a mount, and get a bonus, something like +1 on ride and handle animal checks with that mount. The ability's real purpose is to provide terminology for mount-related Fighter abilities, which affect your designated mount.

It also makes more sense, for example with "Packhorse", you've trained this mount to carry more weight, rather than magically imparting any mount you ride with the ability to carry more.

[Samm]

Alright, slight thing.
I'd change the wording on "It was Inevitable", right now it sounds like it's an automatic crit that dosn't trigger any crit-based effects but still deals critical damage. I'd make it just say "You automatically hit", and not mention crit's at all.

Okay. I'll change that.


As has been mentioned above, with "Through the armor", you essentially get two auto-hits a round, and full BaB classes don't miss alot anyway.

Yeah... I see where you're coming from.


Does Favored Weapon refer to a specific weapon, or a type of weapon (You're grandfathers +3 Longsword or Longswords in general).

A weapon type. I should mention that.


Maybe give all fighters a "Designate Mount" ability (Needs a different name). You spend some time training a mount, and get a bonus, something like +1 on ride and handle animal checks with that mount. The ability's real purpose is to provide terminology for mount-related Fighter abilities, which affect your designated mount.

It also makes more sense, for example with "Packhorse", you've trained this mount to carry more weight, rather than magically imparting any mount you ride with the ability to carry more.

Okay. That's a good idea. I'll add something in like that.

Edit: Made such changes.

[sariss_eldariss]

keep up the good editing hehehe,

you must be doing something right cos the fighter in the long time campaign i have been running has asked to change his toon to this class (he previously had like 4 prestige classes or something).

i know this aint the main topic but as fighters are we sposed to be effective at range or not really?

[Samm]

keep up the good editing hehehe,

you must be doing something right cos the fighter in the long time campaign i have been running has asked to change his toon to this class (he previously had like 4 prestige classes or something).

i know this aint the main topic but as fighters are we sposed to be effective at range or not really?

It really depends who you ask. Everyone has different ideas about what the fighter should be. However, to accommodate all these ideas, needs the potential to be effective at all of them. So yes, the fighter should be effective at range, if he's following the ranged build.

[Samm]

Okay, it's been a long time, but I've made 2 changes.

I've added in a Sneak Attack Ability in the Fighter abilities section. I've also decreased the damage from Between the Ribs to +1d6 per 2 fighter levels to +1d6 per 2 fighter levels. I think it was a little too much before hand.

[Cadian 9th]

Interesting. The sneak attack is a good option, especially since you can choose to take it only once or twice. Especially useful to synergise with prestige classes, although, single classed fighter is awesome anyway so I'd rarely multi-class.

Also, your above post has a duplicate not a change. Could you clarify?

[Lord_Gareth]

You aren't your own ally.

By RAW you are, in fact, your own ally. So you know.

[Samm]

Interesting. The sneak attack is a good option, especially since you can choose to take it only once or twice. Especially useful to synergise with prestige classes, although, single classed fighter is awesome anyway so I'd rarely multi-class.

Also, your above post has a duplicate not a change. Could you clarify?

Thanks. Ah right, I meant 1d6 per 4 levels.


By RAW you are, in fact, your own ally. So you know.

Okay.That's very odd. However, I did specify that when I said ally, I didn't mena the Fighter.

I'm thinking of removing/nerfing Bloodlust and changing the "once per 3 encounters" to 2-3/day clause for A Good Fighter Never Falls.

The temporary hitpoints from Keep it Coming now only last one minute and I've restricted the bonus attack given by Injury to Insult. Now you can only use that bonus attack to attack the character that was tripped and the bonus attack is at the same bonus as the one used to trip him.

Edit: I'm also thinking of further nerfing A Major Distraction.