[3.5] Add-ons for Dead Levels

[Person_Man]

Of all the design problems with 3.X D&D, I think dead levels were one of the biggest. Many classes gain no additional class features. Most base casters only progress casting, which by itself is meaningless at ECL 6 or higher when you can enter into a prestige class that progress spells AND grant additional class levels. WotC put out a couple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) of articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) giving add-ons. But they're almost entirely useless.

I've come up with some solutions to the problem. Non-Druid full casters are encouraged to enter prestige classes (unless they optimize their spell choice to much and play with a Batman like selection, in which case they're encouraged to stay within class). Tier 4-6 classes may borrow the class abilities of other Tier 4-6 classes to fill in their dead levels on a case by case basis. For example, I had a Fighter who filled in his dead levels with Soulknife class abilities. I've also written more then one homebrew class specifically to address this issue.

But what do you do about Tier 3ish classes? In many ways, the Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Psychic Warrior, Bard, Crusader, etc, are the most "balanced" classes. But on the flip side, most of them have four or more dead levels.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to fill them in? More feats? Filling them in with weak class abilities? Just sucking it up and leaving them? Homebrew material? I'm open to all ideas.

[Frosty]

The Tome of Battle characters already have reasons to stay in their class, and probably only need small, flavorful toys in their dead levels (especially Crusader, whose class features are sort of meh).

As far as I can tell, the Bard PrCs out to be pretty good at the area of specialization. It's a bard who abandons his all-around-ness,mostly because the bard's all-aroundness kinda sucks. Perhaps not necessary less ddead levels (although that would be nice), the bard just needs a power boost in general and a lot of ACFs to suit each person's tastes. With bigger numbers and just a few tweaks, people won't want to PrC out of Bard as much.

[Ernir]

I think "dead levels" are mostly an issue when the class itself isn't giving any scaling bonuses. Totemist 4 is a level I look forward to on one of my characters, because it gives me an extra soulmeld and an extra point of essentia (and less relevantly right now, meldshaper level +1), even if it doesn't have anything in the "special" column in its class table. It's still a level I really want, because taking it improves my existing class features. And if I wanted something different, I can PrC out and keep the scaling features.

It's a bigger issue when the level truly gives nothing but an extra HD (along with the appropriate BAB, HP, skill and base save bonuses). Like, Fighter 3 or Rogue 20. That is when there is truly no reason to multiclass out.
Here, especially since these classes tend to be on the weak side anyway, I'd add minor features.

For the scaling classes, I'd rather just forget about it and focus on making more PrCs.

[subject42]

One thing that I did for Crusader was add a few floating feats that you could switch out every day. It fit nicely with the refresh mechanic.

[grarrrg]

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to fill them in? More feats? Filling them in with weak class abilities? Just sucking it up and leaving them? Homebrew material? I'm open to all ideas.
[sarcasm mode]
Just throw some more feats at them, feats fix everything...
[/sarcasm mode]

[Curmudgeon]

As an enticement to stay in the Rogue class, I suggest filling in the two fairly high dead levels (14 and 20) with Camouflage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#camouflage) (similar to the Ranger ability, but in all terrains rather than just natural), and Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#hideinPlainSight) (again, without terrain restrictions).

[Dragonmuncher]

Rogue 20 is the most depressing level there is. You've been staying in one class the entire time, getting some neat, flavorful abilities as you level up. Finally, your hard work is about to pay off, here comes the final level, aaaaaaaaaand...

+1 BAB
+1 Ref


sigh.

[Aldizog]

But what do you do about Tier 3ish classes? In many ways, the Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Psychic Warrior, Bard, Crusader, etc, are the most "balanced" classes. But on the flip side, most of them have four or more dead levels.
If "Rage +1/day" makes a level not a so-called "dead level" for the barbarian, then why does "Bardic Music +1/day" make a level not a "dead level" for the bard?

And beyond "Bardic Music +1/day," the bard gets either new spells known or new songs known at every single level.

[Endarire]

"Dead" levels for casters don't give any special class features. You get the standard bonuses of another HD, as well as progressed casting. In short, your numbers are slightly higher than last level.

[Haarkla]

In my opinion if you gain more spells, it is not a dead level.

[Curmudgeon]

In my opinion if you gain more spells, it is not a dead level.
It definitely isn't. It's just that people tend to ignore that and focus on the Special column of class tables, since not every class has a "Spells per Day" column.

[Jack Zander]

In my opinion if you gain more spells, it is not a dead level.

No, but if your spellcasting base class doesn't have class features, then why stay in it? Prestige into something that grants more spells and class features.

[Telonius]

Rogue20 is just screaming for an extra Rogue ability.

For Rogue14? Pick a Type of foe normally immune to Sneak Attacks (undead, construct, ooze, plant, incorporeal). By taking a -2 on your attack, you can now do half sneak damage to them.

For some of the Bard dead levels: maybe some sort of scaling benefit improving the amount of GP you can earn with a successful Perform check. A level 20 Bard should be filling stadiums, not making a measly 3d6 gp.

[FelixG]

Rogue20 is just screaming for an extra Rogue ability.

For Rogue14? Pick a Type of foe normally immune to Sneak Attacks (undead, construct, ooze, plant, incorporeal). By taking a -2 on your attack, you can now do half sneak damage to them.

For some of the Bard dead levels: maybe some sort of scaling benefit improving the amount of GP you can earn with a successful Perform check. A level 20 Bard should be filling stadiums, not making a measly 3d6 gp.

I really really like the bard idea :D

Sort of gives a bard a more....famous feeling.

[Bugbeartrap]

From the WoTC articles: "Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes."

I LoL'd.

[Aldizog]

From the WoTC articles: "Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes."

I LoL'd.
Why? Is it not colorful, unique, and something to look forward to when at level 8, 14, and 18 your slow fall distance improves by 10 feet? Does that not increase your enjoyment of the game vastly more than "only" getting BAB, hp, skill points, and maybe an iterative attack? What about at 5th level, when you become immune to mundane diseases? Is that not an awesome ability? I mean, it keeps it from being a dead level.

WotC should have designed the cleric class so that "turn undead" was not one feature, but instead 20. "Turn skeleton," "turn zombie," "turn ghoul," and so on. They could have made the cleric class SO awesome if it had no dead levels. And for wizards? Familiar abilities should have been put into the "class features" column on the table -- that by itself would have filled up a whole bunch of lines. Then wizards would be cool, instead of their one boring feat every five levels and nothing else.

[Ernir]

From the WoTC articles: "Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes."

I LoL'd.

I wouldn't object to the abilities being called colorful or, in a near-core environment, unique.

Too bad being a special snowflake doesn't help you kill stuff.

[Eldan]

Well, our very first game we had featured a Wizard (me), a Sorcerer (who also was the DM) and a Monk. The monk had a lot of fun. He got cool abilities. And the best thing? He didn't have to spend spell slots on falling slowly or getting rid of diseases! Awesome!

Of course I now realized that the monk is a weak class. But in that environment where the monk was the only one to ever read the trip or grapple rules and every new level of spells was full of wonder? Where a troll was a cool, new and unique enemy? The monk was a totally reasonable class. He could outrun fleeing enemies and when the sorcerer and the wizard didn't dare cross the rickety rope bridge because of falling damage, he would look totally cool doing it.
Of course, every one of us got something new and cool every level. We two got our spells, he got cool abilities. And since the wizard and the sorcerer had the same spell list, he was the most unique character in the group!

[Zhalath]

I have to say, I'm actually rather happy sometimes to just get my BAB +1 or extra X+Int skill points. Either I had a feat or PrC in mind, or maybe I just wanted a little extra bonuses. I mean, it can't be Christmas every day.

Unless you're a wizard, in which case you can have Christmas whenever you want.

[Snake-Aes]

I have to say, I'm actually rather happy sometimes to just get my BAB +1 or extra X+Int skill points. Either I had a feat or PrC in mind, or maybe I just wanted a little extra bonuses. I mean, it can't be Christmas every day.

Unless you're a wizard, in which case you can have Christmas whenever you want.

In PF they went with the philosophy that no level should give you only "hp, bab, saves" because, frankly, half the monster hit dice do that better than most classes. Outsider alone is full bab + 3 good saves + 8+int skill points... if a class doesn't beat that, it should compensate with class features.

[Karsh]

In my opinion, on the topic of Casters... A level where you get a new level of spells is not dead. A level where you get more spells of a level you can already cast is dead. The ability need not be major. Perhaps a cantrip at will for each dead level or something.

[DementedFellow]

In my opinion, on the topic of Casters... A level where you get a new level of spells is not dead. A level where you get more spells of a level you can already cast is dead. The ability need not be major. Perhaps a cantrip at will for each dead level or something.

At-will sonic snap. I fully support this.

[Snake-Aes]

In my opinion, on the topic of Casters... A level where you get a new level of spells is not dead. A level where you get more spells of a level you can already cast is dead. The ability need not be major. Perhaps a cantrip at will for each dead level or something.

bonuses to skills and minor tricks are good. A wizard could, for example, on every other level, pick a non-int-based skill, like spot, and make it int-based. Alternatively, every other level he could give the familiar a single spell that, when prepared, the familiar can cast directly from your list. Keep it at the low levels.

[ArcanistSupreme]

In my opinion, on the topic of Casters... A level where you get a new level of spells is not dead. A level where you get more spells of a level you can already cast is dead. The ability need not be major. Perhaps a cantrip at will for each dead level or something.

Right, but who would choose this over Incantatrix? Or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Or Shadowcraft Mage, Mage of the Arcane Order, Master Specialist, or Rimefire Witch?

These are just a few of the PrCs that are essentially Wizard+. There is absolutely no incentive to stay straight Wizard (other than laziness or dislike of multiclassing) when the alternative PrCs are simply better. Class features are something that should actually make a character think, "Gee, 20 levels in this class is a viable alternative to ClassA 3/ClassB 5/ClassC 1/ClassX 4/ClassY 2/ClassZ 5 and is flavorful as well as powerful."

[FMArthur]

Eh, if you're going to houserule to fix the issue anyway, it's much easier to just say that any caster-advancement PrC that would fully progress your casting instead loses its first level of casting advancement. This is simpler and easier than having to come up with new abilities for every level to buff the strongest classes in the game up to the level of the prestige classes that make them even stronger.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Right, but the casters are just an example. What about the Paladin? After 6th level, a Paladin is basically entirely made of dead levels (and not calling level 6 a dead level is pushing it). Why even bother staying in the class (gods forbid you actually stuck with Paladin this long, but this is hypothetical)? There is absolutely zero incentive not to PrC out to a class that actually gives you class features, like Knight of the Chalice. The Paladin, as it stands, is essentially seen as a three level class for a reason.

And that's just the Paladin. 25% of the Ranger's levels are dead levels (seriously, another 1st level spell at level 18?), 50% of the Marshal's (conservative estimate), 45% of the Fighter's...

Sure, this can be mitigated somewhat by ACFs, but what does this do? It adds class features.

[FMArthur]

Okay, you've got me there. Rangers, Paladins, and Fighters are all kind of boring to level-up as. And I played a straight Marshal recently - it feels even more barren than it looks!

What if we gave fighters all the fighter-specific feat chains for free as they qualify (on dead levels only)? None of them are really that strong anyway.

[Awnetu]

I second FMArthurs statement, my opinion was that for the feat chains, past level 6 for the fighter bonus feats, if the fighter so chose, he could waive the pre reqs for the final feat in each chain.

As far as dead levels in general go, I like the monk approach, also the dead levels articles had some decent ideas in my opinion, I would take those minor but pretty cool abilities and test homebrew stuff against them for powerlevel.

[ArcanistSupreme]

The issue with the monk is, while it certainly attracts/tricks newer and more inexperienced players, more seasoned players won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. The class features need to be both flavorful and at least moderately useful. Sure, slow fall +10 ft is flavorful, but ring of feather fall would like a word.

[Awnetu]

Of course that is the problem with the monks, however, I dont feel like Warblades dead levels need to be filled with abilities that increase their power levels all that much.

I don't think too many people in the playground would object if the fighters dead levels were on a higher level than the warblades.

[JoshuaZ]

Part of the other issue with dead levels is that if you have a dead level there's very little incentive not to PrC out. Thus for example a sorcerer if they already qualify for a PrC that advances spellcasting at level 1 should almost certainly take it because they don't lose anything noteworthy. There are other similar problems. For example, 5th level fighter is literally just a point of BAB and nothing else. Ick.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I completely agree that Warblade doesn't need a power boost, but it's also one of the easiest classes to dip or multiclass with. While this is in many ways a good thing, it's also a reason you don't see too many Warblade 20s running around.

Perhaps a way to fix would be similar to the way that Pathfinder(?) (4e? not sure) grants players a bonus feat for every fourth level that they stick with a class. So Rogue 3/Warlock 4 would get one bonus feat and Crusader 8 gets two. But maybe do it with VoP-esque abilities, as giving a fighter more feats doesn't really help that much.

EDIT: Don't forget, Fighter 5 also nets you 2+Int skill points! :smalltongue:

[Zhalath]

In PF they went with the philosophy that no level should give you only "hp, bab, saves" because, frankly, half the monster hit dice do that better than most classes. Outsider alone is full bab + 3 good saves + 8+int skill points... if a class doesn't beat that, it should compensate with class features.

That reminds me, aren't a lot of monster class levels the opposite effect? You get class features but no BAB or skills or saves. Funny...