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Jack_Simth
2010-09-09, 06:47 PM
Am I blind, or did I just find a loophole that (if permitted) lets almost any Core Caster get cheap, risk-free, low-value (for the level) treasures?

We start with the Summoning subschool of Conjouration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. (Emphasis added)

(You can probably see where this is going already)

So where's that useful? Well, we start with Summon Monster IV (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIV.htm), and summon a very useless critter: a Memphit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mephit.htm). Why a Memphit? Because it has "Treasure: Standard", and is CR 3.

Not to leave the Druid and Ranger out, we also look at Summon Nature's Ally III (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIII.htm), and the Satyr (without pipes) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/satyr.htm), for it's "Treasure: Standard" at CR 2.

Now, to be "fair", under Monsters with Treasure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#monstersWithTreasure), the books say:
When generating an encounter dealing with monsters away from their lair, remember that a creature only takes what it can easily carry with it. In the case of a creature that cannot use treasure, that generally means nothing. The monster safeguards or hides its treasure as well as it can, but it leaves it behind when outside the lair. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home. Treasure can include coins, goods, and items. Creatures can have varying amounts of each, as follows. (Emphasis added)

So if you've summoned a critter, it's away from it's lair, so it has some treasure with it (if it can use treasure, which a Memphit or a Satyr usually can). You summon it, order it to give you everything it has with it, and let the Summon expire. For the cost of a 4th (or 3rd) level spell, you now have a CR 3 (or 2) treasure drop.

So a Cleric or Wizard-7, Sorcerer-8, Druid-5, Ranger-11/12 (depending on Wis), or a Bard-10/11 (depending on Cha) can have potentially uncapped wealth, for no risk, during down-time.

Outside of perfectly reasonable DM fiat, house-rules, and thrown books to the contrary, are there any particular holes in this method (oh yes, and do note that the Druid can spontaneously do this with any remaining spell slots of 3rd level or above at the end of an adventuring day)?


Edit: Side note: Any Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spell above that level also includes critters that have treasure. You basically just need to be able to talk to them to have them do "other actions".

Toliudar
2010-09-09, 06:59 PM
Well, you've already acknowledged that DM's are (very, very, very) likely to fiat this away. How about this to further the reasoning?

Summon Monster summons the creature. If it's a hound archon sitting in its chair in Celestia, the chair does not come along for the ride.

Or how about this?

Any treasure/gear is either an integral part of the creature (and so summoned with it), or is being summoned as a separate object. If the former, then it remains an integral part of the creature and disappears along with it. If the latter, then the treasure isn't included in the summoning of a creature, so doesn't show up in the first place.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-09, 07:14 PM
Well, you've already acknowledged that DM's are (very, very, very) likely to fiat this away. How about this to further the reasoning?

Summon Monster summons the creature. If it's a hound archon sitting in its chair in Celestia, the chair does not come along for the ride.

Does a Couatl (Summon Monster IX) leave it's spell component pouch behind, rendering it incapable of casting anything requiring an inexpensive focus (on the 'typical spells known' list in the Monster Manual: Mage Armor, True Strike, Summon Monster III)? Does it leave it's clothing behind? Why should it leave behind anything it 'typically carries'? Incidentally, this was part of the reason for grabbing the quote on traveling critters. It becomes especially clear that critters bring stuff with them on the Summon Nature's Ally line of spells, where Summon Nature's Ally V explicitly says the Satyr comes with pipes, Summon Nature's Ally VII says the Pixie comes with sleep arrows, and Summon Nature's Ally IX says the Pixie comes with both sleep and memory arrows.


Or how about this?

Any treasure/gear is either an integral part of the creature (and so summoned with it), or is being summoned as a separate object. If the former, then it remains an integral part of the creature and disappears along with it. If the latter, then the treasure isn't included in the summoning of a creature, so doesn't show up in the first place.
Sounds fiat-ish. If things are not summoned with the stuff they would 'typically carry', then you have the problem of critters appearing nude and not being able to use many of their listed abilities. If they do, then to make this method of 'no' work, you have to introduce a distinction of 'inherent items' and 'normal items'.

Urpriest
2010-09-09, 10:04 PM
Couatls don't wear clothing. Just sayin'.

As for the rest, as a DM I'd focus on the phrase "summoned objects". Your quote says: "A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate." I'd interpret that to mean that "summoned object" refers to the object designated in the summoning spell. You can't choose where the creature's gear ends up, so it doesn't obey that sentence. The gear on a summoned monster does not consist of "summoned objects" because they are not specified in the spell. Instead, they are simply the creature's gear. You have not summoned them, you summoned the creature, they just came along for the ride.

Duke of URL
2010-09-10, 05:49 AM
For magical effects, a creature's possessions are pretty much universally treated as part of the creature itself.