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Nick_mi
2010-09-09, 10:49 PM
Looking for the 5 strongest monsters found in any book.

arguskos
2010-09-09, 10:51 PM
Looking for the 5 strongest monsters found in any book.
Well, can we have some qualifiers here? Strongest with regards to what?

Flickerdart
2010-09-09, 10:51 PM
Counting the Epic Level Handbook? Because that's where they're all gonna be, if so. If CR20 is cap, then it gets interesting.

Kylarra
2010-09-09, 10:59 PM
For sheer party screwing overness without necessarily killing them, adamantine horror is pretty hard to beat with at-will disjunction.

FMArthur
2010-09-09, 11:15 PM
A Beholder Mage is about as close as you get to "rocks fall, everyone dies" as an encounter. It's a class for DMs to put onto beholders, but is occasionally cited in builds of the absolute cheesiest sort by players using shenanigans to qualify for it - it's strictly in the realm of 'theoretical optimization' because it would ruin any game in a heartbeat and even the most power-hungry jerks who often use TO builds they pulled off the internet know that it crosses the line. Seriously, a real Beholder Mage would be an unfairly punishing challenge for a team of four fairly well-optimized 20th level wizards.

Beholder Mages are without a doubt the most powerful monsters outside of the Epic Level Handbook, and probably a strong contender even including it. If Beholder Mage is number one, number two should be left blank for emphasis. :smalleek:

Xefas
2010-09-09, 11:26 PM
A Beholder Mage is about as close as you get to "rocks fall, everyone dies" as an encounter. It's a class for DMs to put onto beholders...

I think putting a class onto something counts as 'modding' it, and the thread title specifies non-modded.

If I recall, there are stats for a Grue in the Complete Arcane, and while the book tends to paint them as simple minor elemental spirits without any interesting qualities, I find it is heavily implied if you read between the lines that they can insta-kill you if you happen to be somewhere that is pitch-black.

WeeFreeMen
2010-09-09, 11:42 PM
Ive always liked Solars.
The upper-planes bad-a$$ warriors :D

Id link the SRD.. but Im afraid to.
>_>

EDIT: Oh yeah, she also gets Wish ;p Prolly one of the monsters that can contend with the party as it can use equal amounts of cheese and then some if needed.

Alleran
2010-09-10, 12:02 AM
A Beholder Mage is about as close as you get to "rocks fall, everyone dies" as an encounter. It's a class for DMs to put onto beholders, but is occasionally cited in builds of the absolute cheesiest sort by players using shenanigans to qualify for it - it's strictly in the realm of 'theoretical optimization' because it would ruin any game in a heartbeat and even the most power-hungry jerks who often use TO builds they pulled off the internet know that it crosses the line.
It's not that much in the way of shenanigans. Two scrolls of Polymorph Any Object plus two feats spent on Assume Supernatural Ability, then some other stuff spent duplicating Psychic Reformation to retrain. That only uses the SRD, Savage Species and Lords of Madness.

Certainly nothing on the scale of a White Dragonspawn Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and levels in Dweomerkeeper for Contingent Awaken spells (used via Limited Wish) on yourself when polymorphing to gain permanent supernatural bonuses to your stats (that stack with subsequent uses, AFAIK) with no chance of their ever being dispelled. And then (as icing on the cake) using Supernatural Spell again to permanently Polymorph yourself into a Gold Dragon or something for the massive stat bonus you get in that one as well.

imperialspectre
2010-09-10, 12:08 AM
You can link the SRD; it's perfectly legal.

The Elemental Weirds from Frostburn are pretty amazing. If knowledge = power, they're certainly pretty close to the top.

If you're looking for strength compared to creatures they're allegedly CR-appropriate toward, the planetar is one of the best examples of pure BS from WotC. Allegedly CR 16? Hell no. Casts as a 17th-level cleric, with stats universally better than a typical 16th-level PC cleric. That's when the Cleric is tied for the strongest class in the SRD at that level.

Alleran: There's a difference between level of "cheese," if you mean dumpster-diving from tons of books for every possible trick, and level of sheer brutal overpoweredness. The Beholder Mage is better than any Sorcerer build in existence, because spontaneously casting from an entire spellbook, with up to 10 spells per round (with *no* action-economy-boosting tricks), is better than spontaneously casting from a small list of spells known, up to 4 or 5 spells per round (with *serious* action-economy-boosting tricks).

swagmanabz
2010-09-10, 12:09 AM
tarasque has always been beast and with the addition of orcus he too is up in the top 5 now

awa
2010-09-10, 12:34 AM
tarasque is hard to kill but its not very good at killing. its got tons of immunities but that's all it has the plantar is probably the bigger threat despite the lower cr

Alleran
2010-09-10, 12:46 AM
Alleran: There's a difference between level of "cheese," if you mean dumpster-diving from tons of books for every possible trick, and level of sheer brutal overpoweredness. The Beholder Mage is better than any Sorcerer build in existence, because spontaneously casting from an entire spellbook, with up to 10 spells per round (with *no* action-economy-boosting tricks), is better than spontaneously casting from a small list of spells known, up to 4 or 5 spells per round (with *serious* action-economy-boosting tricks).
I was talking about using shenanigans to qualify for things and how RAI is up against RAW, at least in part. Beholder Mage doesn't really need that much to qualify for and is quite streamlined once you're in it - it's a lot simpler than the Kobold ridiculousness I used, hence "less shenaniganny" (for lack of a better term) in my perception. That doesn't mean it isn't horribly powerful - I would agree that it is.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-10, 12:59 AM
strongest enemy described from any book would likely be the Lady of Pain

then there's weaker enemies who are statted out like those in Deities and Demigods


The Fiendwurm and Linnorm Corpse Tearer are CR 28 and the highest CR monsters that I'm aware of from a monster manual. The Dragon Magazine released a CR 30 Advanced Tarrasque.

~

Outside of Deities, the most dangerous enemies would be those with either wizard spellcasting abilities or some odd and extremely rare abilities.

Flickerdart
2010-09-10, 01:01 AM
strongest enemy described from any book would likely be the Lady of Pain

then there's weaker enemies who are statted out like those in Deities and Demigods


The Fiendwurm and Linnorm Corpse Tearer are CR 28 and the highest CR monsters that I'm aware of from a monster manual. The Dragon Magazine released a CR 30 Advanced Tarrasque.

~

Outside of Deities, the most dangerous enemies would be those with either wizard spellcasting abilities or some odd and extremely rare abilities.
The strongest of the Epic dragons is CR54, I believe.

Talbot
2010-09-10, 01:01 AM
Prismatic Dragons are pretty scary as I recall. And the Heca-however you spell it.

A friend of mine claims there was some sort of horrible Sphinx that was even worse in a Dragon Mag years ago, but I haven't been able to dig it up.

Alleran
2010-09-10, 01:04 AM
The strongest of the Epic dragons is CR54, I believe.
The strongest Epic dragon is the CR90 Great Wyrm Time Dragon (Dragon #359). Which, owing to how it messes with time, can hit the Great Wyrm stage within weeks of being born.

WinWin
2010-09-10, 01:40 AM
The setting of an encounter can modify a creature somewhat.

A draconic creature is more powerful when it has plenty of room to fly around and kite PC's. Solars, Titans and many Teleporting Demons/Devils can benefit from kiting as well.

Underwater, creatures like a Kraken or Aboleth Mage have a definate advantage.

Conversely, some criteers are more effective in a confined/restricted field of play. Tuckers Kobolds are an example of how a weak monster is more challenging in the right conditions. A closet Roper can be devastating. Swarms benefit the most from confined fields of play

Morph Bark
2010-09-10, 02:22 AM
The strongest Epic dragon is the CR90 Great Wyrm Time Dragon (Dragon #359). Which, owing to how it messes with time, can hit the Great Wyrm stage within weeks of being born.

I thought it was possible for it to hit that stage within a day at the very minimum?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-10, 03:26 AM
There was a CR 100 construct in an issue of Dragon, I'm pretty sure it was the Great Sphinx but I can't find it now. Every time it hit anything that breathes it forces something like a DC 400 Con check to avoid going unconscious and dying due to suffocation.

There's also the Neutronium Golem, but that's third party.

For the strongest monster relative to its CR I'd have to put my money on the Ibrandlin from Monsters of Faerun. At CR 5, it has AC 17, SR 20, 135 HP, 14/7/7 save bonuses, Bite +18 4d6+12 and 4 claws +13 2d8+6 not counting Power Attack. Its a Gargantuan Dragon, and it can land on as many medium-size creatures as can fit under it with a pin attack. Those affect can make a DC 21 Reflex save to avoid it, if they get pinned they can either lay still until it moves or take 4d6 damage automatically per round if trying to fight back or break free. It can pin an entire party down, they'll have to spend 2 rounds to grapple check out taking automatic damage, while it full attacks for over 100 damage per round on average power attacking for only a -3. Even without using its pin attack it will probably kill a character every turn full attacking, while their spells and most of their attacks will just bounce off harmlessly.

Dumbledore lives
2010-09-10, 03:34 AM
There was a CR 100 construct in an issue of Dragon, I'm pretty sure it was the Great Sphinx but I can't find it now. Every time it hit anything that breathes it forces something like a DC 400 Con check to avoid going unconscious and dying due to suffocation.

There's also the Neutronium Golem, but that's third party.

For the strongest monster relative to its CR I'd have to put my money on the Ibrandlin from Monsters of Faerun. At CR 5, it has AC 17, SR 20, 135 HP, 14/7/7 save bonuses, Bite +18 4d6+12 and 4 claws +13 2d8+6 not counting Power Attack. Its a Gargantuan Dragon, and it can land on as many medium-size creatures as can fit under it with a pin attack. Those affect can make a DC 21 Reflex save to avoid it, if they get pinned they can either lay still until it moves or take 4d6 damage automatically per round if trying to fight back or break free. It can pin an entire party down, they'll have to spend 2 rounds to grapple check out taking automatic damage, while it full attacks for over 100 damage per round on average power attacking for only a -3. Even without using its pin attack it will probably kill a character every turn full attacking, while their spells and most of their attacks will just bounce off harmlessly.

If we're talking about horrendously under Cr'd I'd have to go with the admantine horror, what with its at will disjunction, disintegration, and implosion, all at CR 9.

Another one I found recently is a little 1/2 CR bird, just below the horror, called the Corollax, an 18 AC bird with at will color spray, DR 5/Silver, and SR 12. That thing is practically guaranteed to kill a commoner or warrior, and they can swarm, since they're immune to their own color spray.

Cicciograna
2010-09-10, 03:43 AM
Taking into account the Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary: Volume I, the most powerful monster is the Neutronium Golem (http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png), with his CR of 9721 (!).

Edit: Ninja'd...

But if you accept an Internet post as valid, then may I present you the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html).

Both are so impossibily impossible that I don't think any sane DM would use them.

Thurbane
2010-09-10, 03:51 AM
For the strongest monster relative to its CR I'd have to put my money on the Ibrandlin from Monsters of Faerun. At CR 5, it has AC 17, SR 20, 135 HP, 14/7/7 save bonuses, Bite +18 4d6+12 and 4 claws +13 2d8+6 not counting Power Attack. Its a Gargantuan Dragon, and it can land on as many medium-size creatures as can fit under it with a pin attack. Those affect can make a DC 21 Reflex save to avoid it, if they get pinned they can either lay still until it moves or take 4d6 damage automatically per round if trying to fight back or break free. It can pin an entire party down, they'll have to spend 2 rounds to grapple check out taking automatic damage, while it full attacks for over 100 damage per round on average power attacking for only a -3. Even without using its pin attack it will probably kill a character every turn full attacking, while their spells and most of their attacks will just bounce off harmlessly.
I just picked up a copy of MoF at my FLGS tonight..flipping through it, I totally missed that the Ibrandlin was only CR 5! :smalleek:

Lans
2010-09-10, 10:26 AM
For its CR Elemental Weirds from Monster Manuel 2. CR 12s that cast as 18th level sorcerers.

Thrawn183
2010-09-10, 10:37 AM
I'm going to have to go with Gold Dragons. Huge HP, size, lots of attacks that can be buffed in a myriad of ways. Most importantly? It casts as a sorc 19, but can also choose spells off the cleric spell list.

Heck, if it took the obtain familiar feat, even one of them would be scary hard to kill.

Lans
2010-09-10, 10:41 AM
You can link the SRD; it's perfectly legal.

The Elemental Weirds from Frostburn are pretty amazing. If knowledge = power, they're certainly pretty close to the top.

If you're looking for strength compared to creatures they're allegedly CR-appropriate toward, the planetar is one of the best examples of pure BS from WotC. Allegedly CR 16? Hell no. Casts as a 17th-level cleric, with stats universally better than a typical 16th-level PC cleric. That's when the Cleric is tied for the strongest class in the SRD at that level.

The Weirds you mentioned also cast as Sorcerers 4 above there CR of 14. The one from MM2 are about the same. I think the only nonflavor difference is that they have a 2 lower CR.

Nick_mi
2010-09-10, 11:00 AM
Yeah was looking for like tarassque-ish answers. etc

hamishspence
2010-09-10, 11:10 AM
The Weirds you mentioned also cast as Sorcerers 4 above there CR of 14. The one from MM2 are about the same. I think the only nonflavor difference is that they have a 2 lower CR.

And, the Frostburn ones specify that something overcomes their regeneration (fire and cold iron weapons)

The MM2 ones don't- nor does the 3.5 update to MM2.

BenTheJester
2010-09-10, 11:13 AM
tarasque has always been beast and with the addition of orcus he too is up in the top 5 now

Except the tarrasque can't fly.

And can be killed by an Allip(CR 3)

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-10, 11:27 AM
Tarrasque is a crappy puzzle monster that many appropriately built level 5 characters can easily solo.

Zieu
2010-09-10, 11:55 AM
Taking into account the Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary: Volume I, the most powerful monster is the Neutronium Golem (http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png), with his CR of 9721 (!).

Edit: Ninja'd...

But if you accept an Internet post as valid, then may I present you the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html).

Both are so impossibily impossible that I don't think any sane DM would use them.

I just looked over the Neutronium Golem one....that was a very humbling experience. I was actually very confused when I read the Mid-cosmic section of the Adventure Ideas, mostly because it involves the damn thing actually dying, which seems nigh impossible to me..

Eldan
2010-09-10, 11:55 AM
Taking into account the Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary: Volume I, the most powerful monster is the Neutronium Golem (http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png), with his CR of 9721 (!).

Edit: Ninja'd...

But if you accept an Internet post as valid, then may I present you the Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html).

Both are so impossibily impossible that I don't think any sane DM would use them.

Actually, I think it was established last time the Neutronium golem was brought up that a moderately optimized wizard 20 can defeat it, and that it's not even that difficult for an epic caster.

Nick_mi
2010-09-10, 11:59 AM
how does a level 20 wizard beat that thing -.-;

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 12:05 PM
Im going to assume Celerity abuse to go first, followed by some delivery mechanism for Shivering Touch, to target it's 9 dex.

Actually, that doesn't sound hard at all. I'd be more worried about the 9721st level caster that created it.

Eldariel
2010-09-10, 12:15 PM
Im going to assume Celerity abuse to go first, followed by some delivery mechanism for Shivering Touch, to target it's 9 dex.

Actually, that doesn't sound hard at all. I'd be more worried about the 9721st level caster that created it.

It's a Construct and thus immune... We had a thread about killing a Neutronium Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159082) a while back. Thing is, it's not a threat to level 20 characters so it kinda fails. Basically, to beat it you become immune and then spam something it's not immune to. Supernatural Polymorph Any Object works.

Zombimode
2010-09-10, 12:18 PM
Im going to assume Celerity abuse to go first, followed by some delivery mechanism for Shivering Touch, to target it's 9 dex.

Actually, that doesn't sound hard at all. I'd be more worried about the 9721st level caster that created it.

Ok, but how do the wizards survive the 62d1000 divine fire damage from the golems heat aura? How he make a DC 461 save (wich save it oddly not specified, but I would rule a fort save) to avoid rendered either stunned, unconsciuos or dead?

Celerity wont help.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 12:22 PM
I would personally use Dumb Luck, and spend the four luck points for one attack that would otherwise cause death to have no effect(a 1/day ability).

Immunity to the effect would be the obvious way around the gravitic aura. Immunity to stunning can be gotten in a coupla ways, probably already known to celerity abusers.

A contingent teleport would be the solution for the death throws.

The above is all based on a bit of conjecture from me glancing over his stats, and it's certainly possible someone else found a more elegant solution.

TroubleBrewing
2010-09-10, 12:22 PM
Ok, but how do the wizards survive the 62d1000 divine fire damage from the golems heat aura? How he make a DC 461 save (wich save it oddly not specified, but I would rule a fort save) to avoid rendered either stunned, unconsciuos or dead?

Celerity wont help.


No, but having your cleric friend cast True Resurrection on you would. Death is not considered failure in D&D.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-10, 12:23 PM
Off the top of my head, transforming into something with Regeneration/anything but Fire (War Troll for Acid or Crystal Troll for Sonic work), obtaining Immunity to that energy type, then becoming immune to nonlethal damage (Favor of the Martyr). Even divine damage doesn't bypass Regeneration, so the wizard is completely unharmed by the Golem's damage aura.

I imagine a good number of contingent crafted Surge of Fortunes would work for the saving throws, and if it's still alive when you're almost out of them, teleport away and get more. As long as they last, just spam Polymorph Any Object at it, and wait for it to natural-1 the save and become a fish. Then PoO it again to make it a fish forever, and watch it suffocate.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 12:29 PM
Alternatively, pick up the epic archery feat that lets you shoot whatever you can see(*cough* dragonwrought kobold). Learn to scry.

Space is notoriously empty of things in LoE.

Shoot a lot. You'll roll 20s eventually. He travels at light speed. Your arrows arrive instantly. You win.*


*Start from far enough away to not be in range of...well, anything he has. Space is big, this should not be a challenge.

Flickerdart
2010-09-10, 12:29 PM
Ok, but how do the wizards survive the 62d1000 divine fire damage from the golems heat aura? How he make a DC 461 save (wich save it oddly not specified, but I would rule a fort save) to avoid rendered either stunned, unconsciuos or dead?

Celerity wont help.
You're assuming that the Wizard needs to get within 600 miles of the thing to kill it, never mind the 600 feet necessary to start saving.

Eldariel
2010-09-10, 12:31 PM
Ok, but how do the wizards survive the 62d1000 divine fire damage from the golems heat aura? How he make a DC 461 save (wich save it oddly not specified, but I would rule a fort save) to avoid rendered either stunned, unconsciuos or dead?

Celerity wont help.

I swear, we've had this thread before. Just go read it. There are a dozen spells that enable you to become immune to damage, for example, so the damage is rather trivial.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-10, 12:31 PM
Ok, but how do the wizards survive the 62d1000 divine fire damage from the golems heat aura? How he make a DC 461 save (wich save it oddly not specified, but I would rule a fort save) to avoid rendered either stunned, unconsciuos or dead?

Necropolitans are immune to stunning and being rendered unconscious. Gain the Fire subtype somehow or get a ring of energy immunity (fire) and ignore the fire damage.

Telonius
2010-09-10, 12:40 PM
Not from the Monster Manual, but That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is among the most hideously under-CR'd creatures on record. It's a walking TPK for level 3 characters.

It (or the Stormwrack version of it, I can't remember) is also the source for one of Fax's most horrendous creations.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 12:43 PM
I swear, we've had this thread before. Just go read it. There are a dozen spell combinations that enable you to become immune to damage, for example, so the damage is rather trivial.

Minor fix for you. No spell alone makes you immune, but when you start stacking stuff it's when things get ugly (why high level monsters need some kind of dispel/disjuction to remain a threat).

Anyway this shows that the strongest monsters are those with pure spellcasting, since they can replicate spell cheese against cheesy players.

In particular the borked ones with higher spellcasting than CR. This means the finishers are:

-Planetar (CL cleric 17 at CR 16)
-Higher lv mondrons (web supplement, many of them cast as clerics of one level higher as well).
-Sylph (basically casts as a sorceror 8 at CR 7)
-Psionic Mindflayer (psion level 9 at CR 8)

Add caster levels as needed. Turn the player's tricks against them sooner than they can get them. Add rocks falling as needed.

Zombimode
2010-09-10, 12:44 PM
Necropolitans are immune to stunning and being rendered unconscious. Gain the Fire subtype somehow or get a ring of energy immunity (fire) and ignore the fire damage.

Well, its divine fire, so I dont think this will work.

But well, you convinced me, that there are ways to somehow survive its auras.
Now, how do you actually stop this guy? Remember, this thing moves at the speed of light.

Reis Tahlen
2010-09-10, 12:45 PM
Strongest ever: Death, the new Lord of Darkon in the finale of the "Grim Harvest: Death Triumphant" Ravenloft campaign.

He has tons of various powers, and has 2 attacks per turn. If he touches you (and he will), you make a save vs. death. You fail, you die. You succeed, you lose half your level.

So, if you go against him level 20, if you're lucky, you end the turn level 5.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-10, 12:49 PM
Not from the Monster Manual, but That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is among the most hideously under-CR'd creatures on record. It's a walking TPK for level 3 characters.

It (or the Stormwrack version of it, I can't remember) is also the source for one of Fax's most horrendous creations.

For the record, the godcrab twins:
Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab (CR 33)
N Huge Outsider (extraplanar, aquatic, augmented vermin)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +42, Spot +37
Languages Aquan
AC 86 (Size -2, Dex +13, Luck +15, Insight +12, Natural +35, Deflection +3), touch 51, flat-footed 73
hp 544 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects, transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, aging
Resist fire 10, cold 10, electricity 35, acid 35
DR 15/epic
SR 80
Fort +34, Ref +28, Will +28
Spd 280 ft. (56 squares); swim 280 ft.
Melee epic tentacle +78 (2d8+46) or
Melee epic claw +78 (2d6+46) or
Melee 5 epic tentacles +78 (2d8+46) and
Melee 2 epic claws +78 (2d6+46)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +82
Atk Options constrict 4d6+46, improved grab, rotting constriction
Abilities Str 63, Dex 36, Con 39, Int 18, Wis 36, Cha 17
SQ amphibious, fast healing 20, constant insight, spell-like abilities, alternate form
Divine Rank 0, domain SLAs (Ocean, Water, Celerity, Animal, Watery Death), grant spells
Feats ToughnessB, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack
Skills Balance +42, Climb +55, Hide +27, Jump +155, Listen +42, Move Silently +31, Spot +37, Tumble +42

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple with a +13 bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target. This bonus is included in the statistics above.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 35th.
At will—acid fog, animal shapes, antilife shell, blur, calm animals, cat's grace, commune with nature, cone of cold, contagious fog, control water, dehydrate, dominate animal, drown, elemental swarm, endure elements, entangle, expeditious retreat, fog cloud, freedom of movement, freezing sphere, greater blink, haste, hold animal, horrid wilting, ice storm, mark of the outcast, maelstrom, mass cat's grace, mass drown, obscuring mist, rushing waters, shapechange, sound burst, summon nature's ally IV, summon nature's ally VIII, time stop, tree stride, wall of ice, water breathing, waterspout, wind walk. Caster level 25th.
3/day—greater dispel, haste, see invisibility. Caster level 15th.

The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

Helcaerfax
Apocalyptic Voidspawn Advanced Huge Monstrous Crab
Huge Outsider (Augmented Vermin, Aquatic, Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d12+643 (1123 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares), swim 120 ft. (24 squares)
Armor Class: 56 (-2 size, +6 Dex +26 natural, +8 insight, +4 luck, +4 deflection), touch 30, flat-footed 50
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+59
Attack: Claw +47 melee (2d6+31+1d8 chaos)
Full Attack: 2 claws +47 melee (2d6+31+1d8 chaos)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 4d6+62+2d8 chaos, improved grab, powerful claws, sound of the apocalypse
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., DR 13/epic, SR 30, immune (ability damage, ability drain, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, mind-affecting spells, paralysis, petrification, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding), regeneration 30, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +28, Will +22
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 22, Con 42, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Jump +71
Feats: ToughnessB
Environment: Temperate coastal
Organization: Solitary
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Like a nightmare crab, Helcaerfax is said, by some, to be the harbinger of the apocalypse. His powers make him seem to be so: none have stood against him and lived--yet.

Combat
Helcaerfax's claws are considered both epic and chaotic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. The extra chaos damage affects all creatures he attacks, though those warded against chaos take half the extra damage. Those with the Chaotic subtype ignore the extra damage.

Amphibious (Ex): Although Helcaerfax is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): Helcaerfax deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): If Helcaerfax hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round.

Powerful Claws (Ex): Helcaerfax always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Sound of the Apocalypse (Su): Once per day, Helcaerfax can utter a word, unleashing tremendous destructive power. The word kills or destroys up to 40 creatures, as selected by Helcaerfax, within a 16400-foot spread, centered on it. A successful Will save (DC 27) resists the effect, but targets within range still take 8d8 sonic damage. Creatures immune to death effects are still vulnerable to this attack.

Regeneration (Ex): Helcaerfax has regeneration 30 . This regeneration cannot be overcome, and Helcaerfax can only be truly slain by dealing it nonlethal damage equal to its full normal hit points + its Constitution modifier and then using a wish or miracle to keep it dead. Helcaerfax regrows severed limbs in 1d6 rounds. It can reattach a severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Rejuvenation (Su): Three times per day, Helcaerfax can restore itself to full hit points.

Annihilating Strike (Su): Whenever Helcaerfax makes a successful critical hit with a natural attack, the struck opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 27) or have its body disintegrated by the powerful energy of utter annihilation manifested by the strike. Those who make the save take the normal damage from the critical hit.

Annihilating Touch (Su): Five times per day, Helcaerfax can use its entropic field to disintegrate nonsentient objects. Helcaerfax must touch the object or make a touch attack against a carried or worn item. Carried or magic items are entitled to a Fortitude saving throw (DC 27). Up to a 10-foot cube of nonsentient matter is affected, so the ability disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure. Objects that make the save still take 12d6 points of damage.

Helcaerfax may use this ability as a free action (still limited in uses per day) against an object that strikes it. If the striking object is destroyed, it deals no damage to it.

This field goes off randomly as well, starting at 2d10% at the beginning of a day, increasing 2d10% per hour, and resetting to the base 2d10% when it does finally discharge. Roll against the generated percentage every hour—Helcaerfax never knows when the discharge is about to occur. When the field spontaneously discharges, everything touching or touched by Helcaerfax must make a save as indicated above. This includes the floor of a room, water surrounding it, and so on. The ability still only affects 10 cubic feet of matter, but makes it impossible for Helcaerfax to keep items for long.

Aura of Fear (Su): Helcaerfax constantly radiates energies that cause fear in normal beings. Creatures within a 30-foot radius of it must succeed on a Will save (DC 27) or become frightened for 21 rounds. Those who make the save cannot be affected by Helcaerfax's aura for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. Opponents with more tahn 40 HD are unaffected.

Vermin Traits: Helcaerfax is immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). It also has darkvision (60-foot range).

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 12:53 PM
Any spell that doesn't allow SR, and can kill with one hit.

That's a lotta spells. With 4 levels of Dweomerkeeper...you can use whatever spell you wish.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 12:56 PM
Any spell that doesn't allow SR, and can kill with one hit.

That's a lotta spells. With 4 levels of Dweomerkeeper...you can use whatever spell you wish.

Check out his immunities. Now check that it has divine rank so it doesn't fail saves on a natural 1. C'mon, name a spell that can go trough all that. Fax didn't leave things at the air when she pimped that damn crab.

PersonMan
2010-09-10, 01:00 PM
Isn't it not immune to it's own aura? Meaning that it'd just sort of collapse after a while?

The Rabbler
2010-09-10, 01:00 PM
I just looked over the Neutronium Golem one....that was a very humbling experience. I was actually very confused when I read the Mid-cosmic section of the Adventure Ideas, mostly because it involves the damn thing actually dying, which seems nigh impossible to me..

look at the mortiverse one. It is literally immune to everything and kills everything all the time forever. And if it somehow dies, everything ends.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 01:03 PM
Check out his immunities. Now check that it has divine rank so it doesn't fail saves on a natural 1. C'mon, name a spell that can go trough all that.

Spells with saves? Why would you want to give him saves?

His immunities were standard construct immunities, IIRC. He didn't have anything other than granted by the type. Which admittedly, rules out some of my favorite attacks, but hey, you work with what you have.

Wings of Flurry sounds fun, but it involves very close range. I'd be tempted to use that with defensive optimization for style.

Edit: Honestly, if this ever appears in a campaign, Im going to point out the following.

A. Space is dark.
B. He has darkvision 60.
C. He travels at the speed of light, and is ridiculously heavy.
D. Falling damage scales with weight.
E. I just tossed a marble in his path.

Eldan
2010-09-10, 01:03 PM
Well, its divine fire, so I dont think this will work.

But well, you convinced me, that there are ways to somehow survive its auras.
Now, how do you actually stop this guy? Remember, this thing moves at the speed of light.

It's been a while since I read it, but can it go through a wall of force, which is immune to damage?

Also, there are any number of non-SR spells that can kill it. Sure it takes forever, but orb of force will eventually kill it.It also doesn't seem to have any energy immunities. As for it's death effect, you can shift it to another plane with a supernatural abilty.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-10, 01:03 PM
Isn't it not immune to it's own aura? Meaning that it'd just sort of collapse after a while?


Check out his immunities. Now check that it has divine rank so it doesn't fail saves on a natural 1. C'mon, name a spell that can go trough all that. Fax didn't leave things at the air when she pimped that damn crab.

Actually, I didn't do a very good job when I put it together initially. Not only is it immune to its own abilities, but it is also immune to death effects and transmutation. Helcaerfax is actually easier to take down than the DPPDC because of that, assuming you can get in range to get off a SoD that it fails its save on.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 01:08 PM
His immunities were standard construct immunities, IIRC. He didn't have anything other than granted by the type. Which admittedly, rules out some of my favorite attacks, but hey, you work with what you have.

Aka you can only kill it with actual damage or some custom epic spell.



Wings of Flurry sounds fun, but it involves very close range. I'd be tempted to use that with defensive optimization for style.

Great, you can kill it if he stands still doing nothing. Now notice that he has abilities, like greater dispel magic. And shapechange. At will.:smallamused:

Geez, sometimes I get the impression you people just check the HP, creature type, and saves and don't bother reading the rest of the monster entry.:smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 01:11 PM
Aka you can only kill it with actual damage or some custom epic spell.

Hardly. There's a *lot* of spells out there.


Great, you can kill it if he stands still doing nothing. Now notice that he has abilities, like greater dispel magic. And shapechange. At will.:smallamused:

Geez, sometimes I get the impression you people just check the HP, creature type, and saves and don't bother reading the rest of the monster entry.:smalltongue:

I'll admit to not reading the immunities in detail.

However, I now notice he's not immune to divine fire. Therefore, I cannot kill him, as he's already killed himself.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-10, 01:12 PM
look at the mortiverse one. It is literally immune to everything and kills everything all the time forever. And if it somehow dies, everything ends.

The Mortiverse isn't a monster. It's the result of someone furiously bashing their forehead against a keyboard numberpad for a few minutes, typing "Pun-Pun" at the top, then crossing it out and writing "Mortiverse".

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 01:17 PM
In fairness, so is the neutronium golem. The actual adventure ideas for it struck me as highly impractical...as did everything else about it.

Someone just started playing around with ridiculously high numbers because, well, they could, and tried to justify it.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 01:19 PM
Hardly. There's a *lot* of spells out there.

And he has a *lot* of SLAs. Fight magic with magic and stuff.



However, I now notice he's not immune to divine fire. Therefore, I cannot kill him, as he's already killed himself.

I don't get this part. I don't see any aura dealing divine damage on either crab.:smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2010-09-10, 01:20 PM
And he has a *lot* of SLAs. Fight magic with magic and stuff.



I don't get this part. I don't see any aura dealing divine damage on either crab.:smallconfused:

I think we're discussing two different monsters here - the SuperCrab and the Neutronium Golem.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 01:20 PM
And he has a *lot* of SLAs. Fight magic with magic and stuff.



I don't get this part. I don't see any aura dealing divine damage on either crab.:smallconfused:

Ah, I'm talking about the Neutronium Golem, not the crabs.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-10, 01:21 PM
Ah, I'm talking about the Neutronium Golem, not the crabs.

Perhaps if you have problems with crabs you should visit the Relationship Woes and Advice thr *is shot*

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 01:35 PM
Heh.

For the crabs, I think my solution would be force cage, followed by the creation of the order of mages who force cage crabs for the safety of all humanity.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 01:38 PM
Ah, I'm talking about the Neutronium Golem, not the crabs.

Ah, I'll agree with you there. Thing has just big numbers and really no way to bypass magic combos.

Unless we play a little with the absurd number of feats it gets.



For the crabs, I think my solution would be force cage, followed by the creation of the order of mages who force cage crabs for the safety of all humanity.

Dimensional door SLA. You'll have to do better than that.

PersonMan
2010-09-10, 01:38 PM
Actually, I didn't do a very good job when I put it together initially. Not only is it immune to its own abilities, but it is also immune to death effects and transmutation. Helcaerfax is actually easier to take down than the DPPDC because of that, assuming you can get in range to get off a SoD that it fails its save on.

I was talking about the Neutronium Golem, actually.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 01:53 PM
Ah, I'll agree with you there. Thing has just big numbers and really no way to bypass magic combos.

Unless we play a little with the absurd number of feats it gets.

Oh, it could be rebuilt to be truly nasty, I have no doubt of that.

I'd rather just start fresh if inventing a monster, though. I don't want to have to explain the existance of wizards with caster levels over 9000. The resulting DBZ jokes alone would make it not worthwhile.


Dimensional door SLA. You'll have to do better than that.

Hmm. Well, it'll work for Helcaerfax. It's spellcrab buddy, though, will be a problem. Standing back(flying) and orbing it to death is likely the smart move. I don't believe it can fly.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-10, 01:57 PM
Hmm. Well, it'll work for Helcaerfax. It's spellcrab buddy, though, will be a problem. Standing back(flying) and orbing it to death is likely the smart move. I don't believe it can fly.

Jump +155 means it may not have to.

Zieu
2010-09-10, 02:06 PM
Edit: Honestly, if this ever appears in a campaign, Im going to point out the following.

A. Space is dark.
B. He has darkvision 60.
C. He travels at the speed of light, and is ridiculously heavy.
D. Falling damage scales with weight.
E. I just tossed a marble in his path.

Wait....so you're saying trip him in space with a marble? Or get him to hit the marble? Because the laws of physics (specifically, Newton's 3rd) have somthing to say about trying to kill him by running him into a marble...and I don't think falling damage applies in space where gravity is only present in close proximity to stars/planets...

Or maybe I missed the point entirely, haha :smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-09-10, 02:10 PM
Wait....so you're saying trip him in space with a marble? Or get him to hit the marble? Because the laws of physics (specifically, Newton's 3rd) have somthing to say about trying to kill him by running him into a marble...and I don't think falling damage applies in space where gravity is only present in close proximity to stars/planets...

Or maybe I missed the point entirely, haha :smalltongue:
Yup, you missed the point. This is D&D. Physics has no place here. :smallcool:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 02:14 PM
Yup, you missed the point. This is D&D. Physics has no place here. :smallcool:

Well, in fairness, even in reality, a marble travelling at the speed of light would still leave a rather substantial mark. =)

But yeah, it's actually just an abuse of falling damage. 20d6+d6/200lbs to both objects.

So, the marble gets destroyed too.

arguskos
2010-09-10, 02:16 PM
Well, in fairness, even in reality, a marble travelling at the speed of light would still leave a rather substantial mark. =)
And in reality, a golem made out of neutronium would utterly ignore everything short of MORE neutronium or a black hole. Your point? :smalltongue:


So, the marble gets destroyed too.
Poor marble, it never wanted to get involved in this sorta thing. It just wanted to find a nice marble-lady and settle down, have a few marble-kids and live a nice happy life. :smallfrown:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 02:27 PM
And in reality, a golem made out of neutronium would...

This amuses me. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-09-10, 02:34 PM
This amuses me. :smallbiggrin:
Well, if you're gonna break out the "in reality a marble..." I can do the same thing with neutronium (a real material, after all). :smalltongue:

LolD&Dphysics?

Urpriest
2010-09-10, 02:35 PM
Well, in fairness, even in reality, a marble travelling at the speed of light would still leave a rather substantial mark. =)

But yeah, it's actually just an abuse of falling damage. 20d6+d6/200lbs to both objects.

So, the marble gets destroyed too.

Neither is, strictly speaking, falling though.

At best I could see you taking advantage of the Ramming rules. You'd need a small and unobtrusive vehicle rather than a marble. For those with Arms and Equipment Guide easily accessible, is ramming damage uncapped?

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 02:36 PM
You build a golem of it, I'll get a marble. Let's test.

PS: Bet I'm ready first.

arguskos
2010-09-10, 02:43 PM
You build a golem of it, I'll get a marble. Let's test.

PS: Bet I'm ready first.
Let's talk in a few hundred years, k? It's a dinner date. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2010-09-10, 02:44 PM
Let's talk in a few hundred years, k? It's a dinner date. :smalltongue:

...which one of you is Graz'zt and which one of you is Iggwilv?

arguskos
2010-09-10, 02:46 PM
...which one of you is Graz'zt and which one of you is Iggwilv?
I post for both the Dark Prince and the Witch Queen. They're... *ahem*busy*ahem*. :smallamused:

Augmented Lurk
2010-09-10, 04:17 PM
It seems like it would actually be pretty easy to kill a neutronium golem with a Mace of Smiting.

And to answer the OP:
Demilich
Solar
Prismatic Great Wyrm
Force Great Wyrm
Advanced Gold Great Wyrm

Urpriest
2010-09-10, 04:22 PM
It seems like it would actually be pretty easy to kill a neutronium golem with a Mace of Smiting.

And to answer the OP:
Demilich
Solar
Prismatic Great Wyrm
Force Great Wyrm
Advanced Gold Great Wyrm

Demilich would be modded, no? Or do you mean specifically the sample demilich?

Augmented Lurk
2010-09-10, 04:33 PM
The sample Demilich has 21st level wizard casting, magic immunity, and a supernatural ability that eats your soul. Even without modding it's pretty brutal.

AimlessSage
2010-09-10, 04:38 PM
Based upon my experiance, The imp, its listed as a CR 2, it has;
fast healing (2)
DR 5/good or silver
invisibility AT WILL
Poison Injury, Fortitude DC 13, initial damage 1d4 Dex, secondary damage 2d4 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus
Fly(perfect) 50ft

2nd level characters rarely have silver weapons, or good aligned so they will do little damage. It has fast healing, so even if you hit it it will get better. It can turn invisible at will to heal up if it DOES take any kind of real damage, or heck, just to pot shot unsuspecting foes. The poisoned attacks will eventually cripple your members one by one reducing their ability to dodge with each failed roll. and to top it all off, it fly's at 50ft(perfect) so you cant even run away from it.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 04:45 PM
Well, in fairness, even in reality, a marble travelling at the speed of light would still leave a rather substantial mark. =)


Ok, then it's only fair we apply that logic to caster as well.

The wizard teleports? Moving at infinite speed. There's a bug at the end location? Wizard dies in a splatter of blood.:smallamused:

Tetrasodium
2010-09-10, 05:40 PM
There are a series of spells in the one of the eberron books that removes various aspects of the construct immunities depending on which you use. The highest of the bunch basically strips them all :).

BobSutan
2010-09-11, 12:24 AM
Simplest way to defeat the golem that comes to mind is to just build 2 more.