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Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 04:18 PM
I posted this in another thread, not noticing the age of said thread. I apologise for dabbling in thread necromancy, but I have a question about Pun-Pun and his level one godliness.
Here is my post from before:

I read the post about Pun-Pun on the wizards forums, and I noticed someting. I checked the Fiendish Codex I, which covers the Abyss, and when you summon Pazuzu, he can (and typically does) cast detect good, detect law, tongues, and detect thoughts (DC 22). He also always uses sense motive, for which his modifier is 37.

Correct me if I am wrong, but suddenly creating a lawful neutral god is NOT something that a Demon Prince wants, right? While it does say that he almost always provides aid, he DOES NOT always do so.

Also, the Pun-Pun in question is level one. He poured ability scores into intelligence, so wisdom probably took a hit. Regardless, the DC for 'Zuzu's detect thoughts is a 22, which we can assume our int-focused friend can make only on a 20, if at all.

So here's how I think it would go:
1) Pun-Pun says "Pazuzu" three times in a row.
2) In the following minute, Pazuzu casts detect law and detect good and finds that the summoner is Lawful Good.
3) Still within the one minute time limit, Pazuzu, despite his longing to corrupt a Lawful Good creature (perhaps they are a paladin, his favorite!), is always cautious of those who would trap him. He thus uses his spell-like ability detect thoughts. Multiple times. He's paranoid, as he should be, and he knows that it can be resisted. (This means that even if Pun-Pun rolls a 20 the first time to resist, Pazuzu will know, because he will read no thoughts. He can cast this at will, so no matter how many 20s are rolled, Pazuzu will eventually read Pun-Pun's surface thoughts, which, in someone in Pun-Pun's situation, likely include: "Mwahaha, I will soon be a God!" or something to that effect.)
4) Pazuzu will know what's up, and will do anything in his considerable power not only to prevent Pun-Pun's ascent, but to either corrupt or eliminate Pun-Pun.
5) The DM will laugh and tell the player that because they decided to make Pun-Pun, they must now play as him for the rest of the campaign.
6) Everyone will laugh, except Pun-Pun and his player, who will cry.

If what I said is incorrect, please tell me so. I have been playing D&D for less than a year, so it is very possible that I am forgetting something important.

Amphetryon
2010-09-10, 04:22 PM
Unless I missed the latest tweak of the All-Powerful Pun-Pun's ascension, he uses a Paladin of Tyranny baseline, which is LE, not LG or LN.

Brendan
2010-09-10, 04:22 PM
maybe he dumps all his wealth for a Disguise Surface Thoughts spell or item? but I'm not sure if that would work. huh.

Douglas
2010-09-10, 04:23 PM
I think the standard assumption is that the would-be Pun-pun is thinking not only of his plan to become a god, but also of his plans for what to do with his godly power, and those plans are always carefully chosen by the player to be ones that Pazuzu would not object to.

Urpriest
2010-09-10, 04:24 PM
Unless I missed the latest tweak of the All-Powerful Pun-Pun's ascension, he uses a Paladin of Tyranny baseline, which is LE, not LG or LN.

The same source the OP mentions also says that Pazuzu does nothing for evil characters, just chastises them for not using their evil powers well enough.

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:26 PM
In short, you're saying that rule 0 disables Pun Pun. We know.

Amphetryon
2010-09-10, 04:30 PM
The same source the OP mentions also says that Pazuzu does nothing for evil characters, just chastises them for not using their evil powers well enough.

Good thing they can disguise their alignment with spells on their list - which they could buy cheap scroll(s) of. :smallwink:

As has been said whenever this topic comes up, Pun-Pun is an entirely RAW-legal intellectual exercise; He's not meant to be played and SHOULD be Rule-0'd out of actual play.

Urpriest
2010-09-10, 04:30 PM
In short, you're saying that rule 0 disables Pun Pun. We know.

Not Rule 0. RAW. Since Pun-Pun is a RAW exercise, he should work by RAW. Otherwise, what's the point?

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:33 PM
Not Rule 0. RAW. Since Pun-Pun is a RAW exercise, he should work by RAW. Otherwise, what's the point?

I'm not really sure that predictive behavior and decision-making, a DM-required activity, really falls under the purview of RAW.

Even if it does... All the Punster has to do is just think only of wanting the one thing, banishing all future designs from his mind.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 04:34 PM
I think the standard assumption is that the would-be Pun-pun is thinking not only of his plan to become a god, but also of his plans for what to do with his godly power, and those plans are always carefully chosen by the player to be ones that Pazuzu would not object to.

I see your point, but it is hard to imagine a Lawful Good character and a Chaotic Evil Demon Prince (who delights in spreading the chaotic evil alignment) to agree on much. Besides, the whole point of Pazuzu offering help to anyone is his love of corruption, and he knows that once Pun-Pun is a god, he will not need Pazuzu's assistance any more, being quite powerful himself.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:36 PM
Actually... your idea relies on Detect Thoughts, yes? That only gives surface thoughts. 'Twould be easy for PP to keep his surface thoughts inoffensive.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 04:42 PM
I apologise if I was unclear:

My method of thinking was based on what would happen in the world of D&D if Pun-Pun really did summon Pazuzu. The bits I added about the DM were just for fun. I was thinking about how easy it would be for Pazuzu to outthink a level one character.

Also, the post I read about Pun-Pun included him tricking Pazuzu into letting him shift to LN instead of the NG he should be based on the system mentioned in the Fiendish Codex. Does this have any significance? If we can assume that due to Pazuzu's 37 Sense motive and the fact that Pun-Pun has focused mainly on knowledge (the planes), not bluff, and ended up NG instead of LN, would it matter? I don't know much about Candles of Invocation - Is there an alignment reqirement to use a LE Candle?

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:44 PM
But Detect Thoughts doesn't read all of the target's mind, just the surface thoughts. If PP focuses on REALLY WANTING the specific thing he's asking for, that's all Pazuzu will get. Thus, Pazuzu will think it's just a desperate sort making a deal with the devil, and have no reason not to grant it.

Now, Pazuzu might be able to figure out something is wrong with Sense Motive... unless PP also trains bluff, and bluffs himself.

Urpriest
2010-09-10, 04:45 PM
But Detect Thoughts doesn't read all of the target's mind, just the surface thoughts. If PP focuses on REALLY WANTING the specific thing he's asking for, that's all Pazuzu will get. Thus, Pazuzu will think it's just a desperate sort making a deal with the devil, and have no reason not to grant it.

Two words: Sense Motive.

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:46 PM
Yeah, there's a way around Sense Motive--just edited in. Simply get a bonus in bluff, and then bluff yourself into thinking you just want the Candle, nothing more. Pazuzu can't sense something wrong if you don't think anything else.

SM also takes a minute to do, generally, and what Pazuzu picks up definitely falls into DM fiat range.

(I also recall there being other methods than Pazuzu, just that they happen at later levels, so PP's still not down.)

Zore
2010-09-10, 04:50 PM
Yeah, this is just the lowest level way to do it. The original build required level 9 and there were several subsequent builds that refined the concept until it hit the kobold Paladin. Actually, if I recall correctly, there's another way to do it at level one...

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:51 PM
And you could just do it at any level where you can afford the candle! :smalltongue:

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 04:51 PM
Yeah, there's a way around Sense Motive--just edited in. Simply get a bonus in bluff, and then bluff yourself into thinking you just want the Candle, nothing more. Pazuzu can't sense something wrong if you don't think anything else.

SM also takes a minute to do, generally, and what Pazuzu picks up definitely falls into DM fiat range.

While the idea of bluffing oneself does surprise me, and it is certainly creative, my most recent question stilll stands. Is there an alignment requirement for using a LE Candle of Invocation? I can't think of any other reason that Pun-Pun would try to become LN instead of NG. If there is a restriction, then Pun-Pun can't do anything about it, unless he gets someone else to use it, and they would likely use it for themselves instead.

Oslecamo
2010-09-10, 04:52 PM
Yeah, there's a way around Sense Motive--just edited in. Simply get a bonus in bluff, and then bluff yourself into thinking you just want the Candle, nothing more. Pazuzu can't sense something wrong if you don't think anything else.

You get a +20 bonus to sense motive at least. Good luck beating that at 1st level while still geting the knowledge check necessary.



SM also takes a minute to do, generally, and what Pazuzu picks up definitely falls into DM fiat range.


Well, it will pick something. You can't just pretend the effect does nothing.

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:53 PM
Not on who uses it, but on who comes through--the alignment of the gated thing matches that of the candle.

Of course, you could just put a helm of change alignment on the candle...

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-10, 04:55 PM
Pun Pun can be done at level 1 without Pazuzu anyway, just be a wizard with Precocious Apprentice.

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 04:58 PM
Now that IS precocious.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 05:00 PM
To those citing other Pun-Puns:

Pun-Pun is a new concept to me. I was merely commenting on the single version that I read which seemed to have a few problems. I understand that there are many Pun-Puns which do work, and that of course he's unplayable anyway for various reasons, I was just commenting on the one that I had seen, unaware of how many Pun-Puns there were. I'm sorry for being so nitpicky, but I was acting in part out of my respect for the rules of D&D. I couldn't stand seeing the world I thought worked so well messed with by a 1st level kobold, at least without a fight. However, I think that if I ever DM, Pun-Pun will be a part of my Pantheon. Anyone ever come up with a list of Domains for him, or should I?

Esser-Z
2010-09-10, 05:01 PM
Pun Pun is so far beyond the other gods, he really doesn't count as a pantheon member. He's the Overdeity.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 05:05 PM
Pun Pun is so far beyond the other gods, he really doesn't count as a pantheon member. He's the Overdeity.

He should still have worshipers and clerics. Even Banjo gets worshipped. And if he has clerics, he needs domains.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-10, 05:09 PM
To those citing other Pun-Puns:

Pun-Pun is a new concept to me. I was merely commenting on the single version that I read which seemed to have a few problems. I understand that there are many Pun-Puns which do work, and that of course he's unplayable anyway for various reasons, I was just commenting on the one that I had seen, unaware of how many Pun-Puns there were. I'm sorry for being so nitpicky, but I was acting in part out of my respect for the rules of D&D. I couldn't stand seeing the world I thought worked so well messed with by a 1st level kobold, at least without a fight. However, I think that if I ever DM, Pun-Pun will be a part of my Pantheon. Anyone ever come up with a list of Domains for him, or should I?

What the previous poster said, on the deity thing.

Unfortunately, going by RAW the D&D world doesn't work very well. You end up with gnome wizards tossing around XP-free Miracles. Even worse, Red Wizards tossing around XP-free Miracles and caster level 40 Gates to call ancient prismatic and force dragons over 120 times per day.

Of course, a gaming group will never see most of this stuff because any DM worth their salt says so.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 05:10 PM
Actually, another reason I was interested in this was my interest in Pazuzu. I have a character, Debrah Ann, who works for him. She frequently mentions her 'boss' to people, especially gullible ones, in hopes that they will ask who she works for. If they do, she says, "His name's Pazuzu. Aint that a fun name? Pazuzu! Try sayin' that three times fast!" :smallsmile:

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-10, 05:10 PM
He should still have worshipers and clerics. Even Banjo gets worshipped. And if he has clerics, he needs domains.

He doesn't really need worshippers, nor clerics. If you wanted to make it so, sure you could. In that case, Pun Pun's clerics would have access to every domain ever printed, because Pun Pun does.

IdleMuse
2010-09-10, 06:03 PM
The trouble with this whole exercise is that while it attempts to be a RAW build, there is no RAW interpretation for how Pazuzu MUST act (once summoned). Guesses can be made, bets can be hedged, but as an intelligent being he is bound to have whims just like any NPC. So whether or not it works is in the lap of the DM. aka, rule 0.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-10, 09:54 PM
So here's how I think it would go:
1) Pun-Pun says "Pazuzu" three times in a row.
2) In the following minute, Pazuzu casts detect law and detect good and finds that the summoner is Lawful Good.

Or whichever flavor of alignment pally used. I believe any of them work.


3) Still within the one minute time limit, Pazuzu, despite his longing to corrupt a Lawful Good creature (perhaps they are a paladin, his favorite!), is always cautious of those who would trap him. He thus uses his spell-like ability detect thoughts. Multiple times. He's paranoid, as he should be, and he knows that it can be resisted. (This means that even if Pun-Pun rolls a 20 the first time to resist, Pazuzu will know, because he will read no thoughts. He can cast this at will, so no matter how many 20s are rolled, Pazuzu will eventually read Pun-Pun's surface thoughts, which, in someone in Pun-Pun's situation, likely include: "Mwahaha, I will soon be a God!" or something to that effect.)

Er, surface thoughts. Which may not involve being a diety at all. They may be things like "Oh crap, this guy looks wicked. I hope this works, or I'm a dead kobold".


4) Pazuzu will know what's up, and will do anything in his considerable power not only to prevent Pun-Pun's ascent, but to either corrupt or eliminate Pun-Pun.
5) The DM will laugh and tell the player that because they decided to make Pun-Pun, they must now play as him for the rest of the campaign.
6) Everyone will laugh, except Pun-Pun and his player, who will cry.

If what I said is incorrect, please tell me so. I have been playing D&D for less than a year, so it is very possible that I am forgetting something important.

The flawed part is not actually Pazuzu. That part works quite well so long as infinite candle of invocation wish loops are not allowed(which will break the game anyhow if allowed once WBL is high enough to buy one).

The flawed part is Manipulate Form. There are other methods besides Pazuzu to pick this up, that just happens to be quickest.