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Talakeal
2010-09-10, 06:09 PM
There was a long thread a week or so ago about how most males play women who fall into one of several stereotypes. This got me thinking about how most of these stereotypes also apply to men.

We have the promiscuous Women, but compare that to James Bond or the like.
There are unusual attractive and busty women, but then again most male characters are attractive and muscular.
For every woman in a chainmail bikini there is a male barbarian wearing nothing but a loin cloth or a gladiator wearing nothing but a shoulder plate.

It really seems to me that people are looking for excuses as to why cross gender role-playing is bad. Can anyone think of any female stereotypes that are not frequently attributed to male characters?

Zaydos
2010-09-10, 06:15 PM
That anyone would play in a D&D game?

Strawman Feminist maybe. Usually meets up with Amazon.

Girl who is only there because her big hero of a boy friend failed due to incompetence (the male version is usually trying to save his lover because she's just a perpetually distressed hero).

Other than that you have House Wife which isn't really something you'd play.

And Red Sonja who is a great warrior woman looking for a man who can defeat her in battle to take her as his lover... which again (almost) no one would actually play and it's just fantasy bait.

Marnath
2010-09-10, 06:20 PM
The difference is that men actually sometimes ran around dressed in only a loincloth and shoulderpad/etc.

Orzel
2010-09-10, 06:22 PM
Party Mama.

Pulling ears, commenting on clothing, and spanking dragons who gave one of her boys a scratch.

Zaydos
2010-09-10, 06:24 PM
The difference is that men actually sometimes ran around dressed in only a loincloth and shoulderpad/etc.

When? Vikings (often depicted as loincloth + shoulder pad) were scale mail + armor and heavy furs when they weren't raiding. Even Gladiators wore armor in a fair amount of places, although they didn't wear shirts I'll give you that. Maybe in hunter-gatherer cultures but women wear a loincloth and nothing else in some of them today.

Mando Knight
2010-09-10, 06:25 PM
Looking for a bunch of always-female stereotypes?

There's an index for that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysFemale)

Zaydos
2010-09-10, 06:26 PM
Looking for a bunch of always-female stereotypes?

There's an index for that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysFemale)

I thought about doing that... then I remembered how many things are indexed as Always X and have 1/5~1/3 of the entries be "inverted" or "gender-swapped". Or are just female versions of male tropes.

ericgrau
2010-09-10, 08:01 PM
We have the promiscuous Women, but compare that to James Bond or the like.
There are unusual attractive and busty women, but then again most male characters are attractive and muscular.
For every woman in a chainmail bikini there is a male barbarian wearing nothing but a loin cloth or a gladiator wearing nothing but a shoulder plate.

Nerds can't pull off the male version and/or don't realize the attractiveness. If they attracted a date they wouldn't be playing D&D friday night :smalltongue:. J/K. The other half is for the female characters to gawk over males the way males gawk over females. I know someone playing a female this way, slightly disturbing come to think of it.

Caewil
2010-09-10, 09:32 PM
Well, the Celts in Britain used to fight completely naked. No shoulderpads or... Anything really. Their women fought the Romans as well.

Zaydos
2010-09-10, 09:33 PM
There's an index for where that stuff is supposed to go (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpearCounterpoint)

I am not starting a page on TVtropes :smalleek:

Zeful
2010-09-10, 09:35 PM
I am not starting a page on TVtropes :smalleek:

I messed up the url, sorry.

Reluctance
2010-09-10, 09:57 PM
Most of the tropes do indeed mirror male stereotypes. The issue is how often a crossgender stereotype becomes grossly, offensively simplistic. For a huge number of reasons, you're more likely to run across a man playing an empty headed whore than you are to run across a woman playing a lumbering oaf who can only think with his sword or the organ it's clearly symbolic of.

And as a followup, what sort of games are we talking about? Character-driven explorations with close friends are usually kosher for whatever. Beer n' pretzels pickup games, I'd rather close off risky avenues rather than spend my my time watching if somebody is really a total tool.

Caewil
2010-09-10, 10:06 PM
The likely cause for this is that women are naturally more intelligent than men. I mean, how else is it that they so often expect us to read their minds? The answer is because women are all naturally telepathic.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-09-10, 10:11 PM
For a huge number of reasons, you're more likely to run across a man playing an empty headed whore than you are to run across a woman playing a lumbering oaf who can only think with his sword or the organ it's clearly symbolic of.

Depends on who you play with. More importantly, I've seen MORE then a few MALE characters play the lumbering oaf who only think with their...swords. That doesn't make it any better to have a guy doing it if the roleplaying is just as bad.

Fiery Diamond
2010-09-10, 10:12 PM
The likely cause for this is that women are naturally more intelligent than men. I mean, how else is it that they so often expect us to read their minds? The answer is because women are all naturally telepathic.

That is the most reasonable explanation I have heard so far.

Zaydos
2010-09-10, 10:13 PM
Depends on who you play with. More importantly, I've seen MORE then a few MALE characters play the lumbering oaf who only think with their...swords. That doesn't make it any better to have a guy doing it if the roleplaying is just as bad.

I second this. I've seen both genders play both genders badly.

WarKitty
2010-09-10, 10:13 PM
Actually part of the cause is it's by far more common to run across an all-male group of players than an all-female group. Plus your average fantasy hero in literature tends to be male.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-10, 10:22 PM
I'm a very comfortably hetero guy and I've never had problems playing the girls. Seem at least as easy to me as other men. I mean, writers have to play both parts.

I've never played the Feminist or the Slut.

Closest would be my 80 year old (but immortal) ranger who was very 'affectionate' but a virgin. She was a complete and continuous flirt, but was with that with everyone. Women, men, animals, she was just exceptionally loving and affectionate. This was why she was chosen for the task.

She had been put in charge of caring for the kidnapped child of a powerful Faerie lord who was prophesied to one day became a great evil. However, as long as he remained a child he could never grow. This child does not age or mature in the material realm, and as long as she cares for him neither does she. The nymph that raised her exactly for this task cast a spell to make her able to produce milk, but warned her if ever she was to be with a man she would dry up and the child would either have to die or be sent back to Faerie.


The closest feminist was a soulknife/bard whose husband had been killed, her child hidden and she was ticked. She dressed flashy and revealing to get attention so that they wouldn't be prepared for her to kill them. She called herself The Distractress and used flash and bang to cover up her real deeds, which was terrorism against the kingdom that'd ruined her life. She'd have nothing to do with any other man after what had happened to her husband.

Caewil
2010-09-10, 10:27 PM
I generally play my female characters as slightly less interested in showing off their power and a bit more interested in gaining social status by networking. More willing to compromise and so on but less willing to be heroic and they tend to come off as somewhat cynical.

imp_fireball
2010-09-10, 10:49 PM
Other than that you have House Wife which isn't really something you'd play.

Eh... I don't know. An upright LG house wife with a 50s era personality would be pretty funny.

Extremely humble in her not very respected position, and believes in marriage before intimacy. :smallamused:

She also knows a hell of a lot about combat, but she never gives off the idea that she does. Or maybe she's a genius wizard who learned magic because she thought it'd make her more desirable (and also to help around the house; she just happens to now know enough to consume the world in an abyssal black hole with an epic spell) - she's not very attractive otherwise.

Maybe she's got kids at home, so she could fall into the soccer mom trope.

Coidzor
2010-09-10, 10:53 PM
Maybe she's got kids at home, so she could fall into the soccer mom trope.

Oh 12 gods. Sorcerer Mom puns, the thought of them. x.x

Talakeal
2010-09-10, 11:00 PM
Eh... I don't know. An upright LG house wife with a 50s era personality would be pretty funny.

Or maybe she's a genius wizard who learned magic because she thought it'd make her more desirable (and also to help around the house; she just happens to now know enough to consume the world in an abyssal black hole with an epic spell) .


That's a new idea for a campaign. Bewitched the RPG?

Cubey
2010-09-10, 11:10 PM
We have the promiscuous Women, but compare that to James Bond or the like.
There are unusual attractive and busty women, but then again most male characters are attractive and muscular.
For every woman in a chainmail bikini there is a male barbarian wearing nothing but a loin cloth or a gladiator wearing nothing but a shoulder plate.

Two words: sexual objectification. James Bond is more than only a ladies' man. Conanesque barbarians are more than just their (barely clothed) body. Likewise, if a female character is promiscous or wears revealing clothes, but has something more to her than that, then it's okay. The problem is when she does not.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-10, 11:42 PM
Likewise, if a female character is promiscous or wears revealing clothes, but has something more to her than that, then it's okay. The problem is when she does not.
Yeah, I tried out Paris Hilton in a game to. The kobolds kept laughing at her.

ericgrau
2010-09-11, 12:25 AM
Two words: sexual objectification. James Bond is more than only a ladies' man. Conanesque barbarians are more than just their (barely clothed) body. Likewise, if a female character is promiscous or wears revealing clothes, but has something more to her than that, then it's okay. The problem is when she does not.
I think we have a winner. Collect your cookie at the door.

Serpentine
2010-09-11, 01:02 AM
I believe this exchange from the Girls Playing Guys thread is relevant:

I think there's more "male archetypes" for girls to stereotype from, than there are "female archetypes" for boys to, which makes the latter's stereotypes more "stereotypey" than the former's. Thoughts?
I have to agree, especially since more of the "female archetypes" don't fit into an adventuring setting.

Also many of generic fantasy archetypes that can be applied to either are assumed to be male, and become a stereotype if female. Male character that loves battle and relishes in combat, Blood Knight or just a viking. Female character that does so? Stereotypical Red Sonja rip-off.
It sounds like you're referring to the concept of markedness. In plain english, markedness refers to what's notable about a person/character/etc. Like in everyday life, being homosexual is marked (i.e. notable), whereas heterosexuality is unmarked. In many fantasy tropes, being male is unmarked in that sense - the fact that your battle-loving barbarian is male doesn't get noticed at all. Femaleness is marked in the sense that people notice that your barbarian is female and expect it to play a role.

Shademan
2010-09-11, 09:42 AM
I've only ever played females in PbP games, but it would be fun to play a ogre or dwarf and at one point rveal my character to be female.
kinda like in Faintheart
"how come you know so much about women?"
"I am one"
"... ):"

AtlanteanTroll
2010-09-11, 09:57 AM
Not what you're looking for (exaclty) but this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysFemale) has quite a few.

ThunderCat
2010-09-11, 12:17 PM
There was a long thread a week or so ago about how most males play women who fall into one of several stereotypes. This got me thinking about how most of these stereotypes also apply to men.

We have the promiscuous Women, but compare that to James Bond or the like.
There are unusual attractive and busty women, but then again most male characters are attractive and muscular.
For every woman in a chainmail bikini there is a male barbarian wearing nothing but a loin cloth or a gladiator wearing nothing but a shoulder plate.

It really seems to me that people are looking for excuses as to why cross gender role-playing is bad. Can anyone think of any female stereotypes that are not frequently attributed to male characters?The mistake you make here is being too general. You think "the stereotype is women having sex, James Bond has sex, ergo, James Bond must be the exact same stereotype", and ditto for attractive and scantily clad women. It doesn't exactly work that way.

You see, James Bond is defined by so much more than his sex life, and even then, it's just as often women who come on to him, because he's supposed to be irresistible without even trying. And he's classy. One thing JB rarely, if ever, does, is walking around in tight, low-cut leather pants, or anything similarly 'trashy'. Another thing he doesn't do, is utter the phrase "If you let me in/forget I was here/tell me the secret code, I'll flash you my wang", or anything in that category. If the female character ever says anything close to "Wanna see my boobs?", or act in a way that makes such a sentence even remotely plausible, you're not a female James Bond any more.

If you have an elegant and stylish female character who enjoys flirting and having affairs with attractive men when she's not busy saving the world, that's one thing. If you have a sultry female character who always tries to get what she wants by means of sex, attempts to hook up with every random hobo the party comes across, and always tries to make guys stare at her breasts, and if you, the player, feel the need to frequently talk about her sexy body and all the sex she has, it's something completely different.

'Attractive' is also a loaded word. Just because a character is muscular does not make them attractive, and just because guys like that always gets the girl in the movies does not make them attractive either. The typical 'bimbos' (the kind of women who're most likely to show up in magazines aimed at a male audience) are not the same as muscular male characters (the kind who shows up in action movies, typically aimed at a male audience too). If you want the male equivalent of the kind of female characters some of these guys play, try combining the most annoying aspects of Orlando Bloom, Robert Pattinson, and Zac Efron. And imagine if at least half the girls who played male characters played like that. And bisexual.

And likewise, I'm surprised I have to explain the difference between a chainmail bikini and a loincloth. One is a common piece of clothing for primitive/barbaric tribes, or simply for people who frequently exert themselves physically. The other is a modern piece of fetishwear which only sees use in everyday life in places like strip clubs, S&M gatherings, and certain kinds of costume parties and cons. And that's not mentioning that there's a reason they chose a metal bikini for princess Leia to illustrate her temporary status as a sex slave. Again, if you want play to woman from a barbarian tribe who only ears a fur loincloth, and possibly something to cover her breasts, that's very different from playing a chick in a chainmail bikini.

Also, how many people actually describe their male characters as being clean shaven (everywhere), oiled, and muscular, and wearing only a shoulderplate, like some of the more cheesy Vallejo illustrations? Because I have never heard about it. The guys I've played with pretty much all describe their male characters are wearing either armour, robes, travelling outfits, or noble's outfits

Tira-chan
2010-09-11, 12:57 PM
Chainmail bikinis were invented by men who will never have to wear one. Seriously, I look at some of the pictures in the PHB, and just go Ouch!

To be fair, I have seen the male equivalent of the promiscuous, look-at-my-boobs type, but he tends to only be played by the type of girls who think the only way Twilight could be better would be if it was yaoi.

WarKitty
2010-09-11, 01:10 PM
Chainmail bikinis were invented by men who will never have to wear one. Seriously, I look at some of the pictures in the PHB, and just go Ouch!

To be fair, I have seen the male equivalent of the promiscuous, look-at-my-boobs type, but he tends to only be played by the type of girls who think the only way Twilight could be better would be if it was yaoi.

I've been known to do that once or twice just to annoy some of the guys. Namely the ones who think it's great to play a look-at-my-boobs type. It's great fun watching them squirm and try to explain why the character disturbs them (and some of them get the point as well that the female character isn't any less offensive).

Cogidubnus
2010-09-11, 01:15 PM
Other than that you have House Wife which isn't really something you'd play.



I am so doing this. Weapon Focus: Giant Rolling Pin (greatclub), cloistered cleric levels to look after "the kids" and +5 apron of fire immunity...

Cubey
2010-09-11, 02:53 PM
Chainmail bikini is okay if it's made from micromail. It doesn't chafe!

Zaydos
2010-09-11, 03:01 PM
But... but... it shouldn't be chainmail unless it can actually provide protective covering. It bothers me regardless of gender when D&D characters are running around half-naked without good reason (I had a berserker who just wore a loincloth and a cloak... ugly bloke too... but he had VoP and was a were-rhino so he couldn't really wear armor or even clothes without them ripping).

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-11, 03:20 PM
That's why I appreciated the art in Frostburn. Except for ice fey, there wasn't much skin. Finally some realism :smallwink:

Not that chainmail bikini's don't have their place...

Shademan
2010-09-11, 03:27 PM
Don't think I ever saw a chainmail bikini in the PHB...
or in any 3.5 book.

Kris Strife
2010-09-11, 04:11 PM
Maybe she's got kids at home, so she could fall into the soccer mom trope.

Have her be an elf or a dwarf with another elf or dwarf in the party that is one of her kids. Give her the personality of Johnny Bravo's mom (who subscribes to Smothering Parents Quarterly) and enjoy the comedy. :smallbiggrin:

Might work better with an Elf woman and a half elf party member. "They're only 20! They shouldn't be leaving the house yet!"

Zaydos
2010-09-11, 04:13 PM
Have her be an elf or a dwarf with another elf or dwarf in the party that is one of her kids. Give her the personality of Johnny Bravo's mom (who subscribes to Smothering Parents Quarterly) and enjoy the comedy. :smallbiggrin:

Might work better with an Elf woman and a half elf party member. "They're only 20! They shouldn't be leaving the house yet!"

Okay that one sounds fun. The elven (insert class here, I tend to use sorcerer/sorceress with elves) joins the party to look after her little kid... the half-elf in their mid to late twenties (so the elven equivalent of a 10 year old according to Races of the Wild and the 2e Complete Book of Elves).

jmbrown
2010-09-11, 09:24 PM
The problem I have with the sultry, bikini-mail wearing female lies in the very idea of "American decency." Historically, certain cultures fought with little to no clothing. Fantasy literature is also filled with heroic men who want nothing more than a woman by their side and flaunt their manhood at every opportunity.

I have no problem with a naked, promiscuous woman because fantasy literature is filled with men of the same type. What I do have a problem with is that sex in America is taboo more so than blood, guts, and carnage. Fantasy artists have to draw bikini armor in order to keep their women sexy but covered. You can feature multiple decapitations, a man swinging by his intestines, and a dude getting a sword-ectomy but for god's sake man, draw a top on that woman's bare chest!! A forum I was on (might have been this one) asked people if there was nudity in Grand Theft Auto IV because he's playing the game with his 10 year old cousin and doesn't want to expose him to nudity. Grand Theft Auto IV. 10 year old cousin. WHAAAAAAT?!?!?

Bikini-mail deeply bothers me for that very reason. Females generally need more support than men (exercising with boxers on makes me feel really uncomfortable) but look at a picture like this (http://greyfalcon.us/pictures/amazon.jpg) (don't worry, it's safe for work), look me straight in the eye and tell me that wearing a metal bikini doesn't hurt. Either A) have her wear nothing at all or B) wear full armor like everyone else. Outside of anime, I haven't seen fantasy men wear midriff baring lamellar.

Avilan the Grey
2010-09-11, 10:23 PM
First of all we have to realize that a lot of stereotypes are not bad. Jim Butcher stated a few years ago about writing: (Paraphrased) "Badly written stereotypes are Clichés. Well written are Archetypes".

If the player is reasonably mature, the average "Promiscuous" female character is usually not actually that; but a man in a woman's body. Many times, if you think about it, it's not that she is a slut, it's that she has the same stereotypical attitude to sex as a male character.

As for clothing, chainmail bikinis are mainly stupid in two ways:

1. They must be very uncomfortable to wear due to being made of metal, and worn without anything underneath... Have her wear a something equally revealing, but in a more sensible material.

2. If used in a setting where the normal female warrior or mage actually wear much more.

Basically, in a Conan-esque world, a woman sorcerer wearing a half-transparent casterkini makes perfect sense. In a "Three Musketeers" world, a female musketeer wearing only a loincloth and tight-high boots does NOT make sense.

The big problems, from my experience, is when players who are immature, or have no real experience with women (they might have slept with them, but has never really paid attention to them) tries to play one. Especially when they try to figure out "how would a woman behave in this situation". That's when you get the responses of the "Scream Queen", "Total slut", "Going topless for no reason", "Tries to seduce the guard as a first resort every time", "Omg I broke a nail!" etc.

I have lately played a lot of PnP games in mixed groups, and the only thing I can say is that the female characters played by female players are acting just like one of the boys 95% of the time. And the female characters played by males are acting like one of the boys 95% of the time. If I was doing some sort of blind tests, I would not be able to tell if a woman or a man was playing a certain character.
But then most of us in our playgroup are 35+ and married. That might help.

Anyway, I throw this in here: It's an analysis why FemSheps (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30143/Analysis_On_FemSheps_Popularity_In_Mass_Effect.php ) are so popular. I think it is very true.

WarKitty
2010-09-11, 11:22 PM
But then most of us in our playgroup are 35+ and married. That might help.

That would help yes. In general two things affect how well crossgender characters are played: group maturity level and group gender ratio.

jmbrown
2010-09-11, 11:32 PM
Anyway, I throw this in here: It's an analysis why FemSheps (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30143/Analysis_On_FemSheps_Popularity_In_Mass_Effect.php ) are so popular. I think it is very true.

Going a little off topic, I played a female shep purely because Jennifer Hale is a better voice actor than whoever they got to play the male :smalltongue:

Serpentine
2010-09-12, 12:37 AM
Well said, ThunderCat. To throw in a little extra: I think it also ties in a bit to why a promiscuous man is (at least stereotypically) a player, cad, "the man", smooth, and other mostly-positive words that escape me right now, while a promiscuous woman is a slut, whore, hussy, strumpet and other decidedly-negative words.
James Bond is a charmer. James Bond's women are hussies.

Kris Strife
2010-09-12, 12:50 AM
Being called a cad is supposed to be a bad thing.

Serpentine
2010-09-12, 01:07 AM
But it's more likely to be used in a joking, semi-admiring way nowadays.

Kris Strife
2010-09-12, 02:04 AM
But it's more likely to be used in a joking, semi-admiring way nowadays.

Honestly, I don't think anyone actually uses it anymore.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 02:15 AM
Strumpet has been largely decommissioned as well.

Learnedguy
2010-09-12, 03:32 AM
Isn't complaining about bikini chainmail beating a dead horse nowadays? I think almost all tabletop game publishers have moved away from them in their official art.

Video games is a different matter of course. Although I don't think there's that many games where the warrior women wears the bikini. It's usually the wizards who ends up looking like skanks. Unless it's the wuxia/martial arts kind of warrior women I suppose.

Shademan
2010-09-12, 03:53 AM
Isn't complaining about bikini chainmail beating a dead horse nowadays? I think almost all tabletop game publishers have moved away from them in their official art.

Video games is a different matter of course. Although I don't think there's that many games where the warrior women wears the bikini. It's usually the wizards who ends up looking like skanks. Unless it's the wuxia/martial arts kind of warrior women I suppose.

soul calibur. nuff said

Learnedguy
2010-09-12, 04:02 AM
soul calibur. nuff said

You mean the game that gave us this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Hilde.png

?

(Okay, so they might've also given us this:)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0e/Ivy_Valentine.png

Shademan
2010-09-12, 04:30 AM
yes. my point exactly.
the ratio for skimpy stripper outfits (or just general fetishwear) far outweights the proper armour and other combat suits

jmbrown
2010-09-12, 05:27 AM
Isn't complaining about bikini chainmail beating a dead horse nowadays? I think almost all tabletop game publishers have moved away from them in their official art.

Video games is a different matter of course. Although I don't think there's that many games where the warrior women wears the bikini. It's usually the wizards who ends up looking like skanks. Unless it's the wuxia/martial arts kind of warrior women I suppose.

You must not own a single 4E rule book, eh?

Shademan
2010-09-12, 05:31 AM
You must not own a single 4E rule book, eh?

I know I don't.
Tough I did see a chainmail tank-top in one...
DO educate us, dear friend.

Avilan the Grey
2010-09-12, 06:32 AM
Isn't complaining about bikini chainmail beating a dead horse nowadays? I think almost all tabletop game publishers have moved away from them in their official art.

Video games is a different matter of course. Although I don't think there's that many games where the warrior women wears the bikini. It's usually the wizards who ends up looking like skanks. Unless it's the wuxia/martial arts kind of warrior women I suppose.

Tera. Although it IS at the same time the first MMO I am tempted to buy. Ever.

Edit: I object to the word skank. To me it suggests things about her other than just revealing outfits. To illustrate:
Amy Winehouse is a skank. Psylocke is not.

Tira-chan
2010-09-12, 10:23 AM
You must not own a single 4E rule book, eh?

Yeah, that's what my earlier comment was about.

Not to get too graphic, but women are sensitive in that area. Tight pinchy loops of metal are not a good thing to have in that region. Let's face it, any real woman would wear some sort of tunic under her armor, for reason of sheer comfort.

Spiryt
2010-09-12, 10:29 AM
Yeah, that's what my earlier comment was about.

Not to get too graphic, but women are sensitive in that area. Tight pinchy loops of metal are not a good thing to have in that region. Let's face it, any real woman would wear some sort of tunic under her armor, for reason of sheer comfort.

I'm not exactly sure how men are supposed to be very different in that matter.

Especially considering that we have some things nerved like internal organs hanging outside. :smalltongue:

Sensibly, anyone ever would wear properly fit padding/tunic/stuff under armor, and 'sheer comfort' would be really secondary to protection anyway.

Mail is not going to protect almost at all you if it's tiny scrap worn over naked body.

But again, fantasy art is mostly specific pron, instead of halfway thought of stuff about fighting people. :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-09-12, 10:34 AM
Dragon Age has much better armor than most other games. But there's still dalish leather armor, which is a leather bikini.
Which really sucks, because some of them have really good stats, but I can't use them without gauging my eyes out.

Coidzor
2010-09-12, 10:44 AM
But again, fantasy art is mostly specific pron, instead of halfway thought of stuff about fighting people. :smalltongue:
Great. Now I can't find the demotivational poster on that very subject from the cheesecake thread.


Not to get too graphic, but women are sensitive in that area. Tight pinchy loops of metal are not a good thing to have in that region. Let's face it, any real woman would wear some sort of tunic under her armor, for reason of sheer comfort.

That reminds me, how does scale do as a bikini? I've seen those more often than actual chainmail ones in art actually.

WarKitty
2010-09-12, 10:50 AM
That reminds me, how does scale do as a bikini? I've seen those more often than actual chainmail ones in art actually.

Depends. If it's true scale, it would still be pretty pinchy. Llamellar would be ok, if completely useless for protection.

Marnath
2010-09-12, 12:18 PM
Llamellar would be ok, if completely useless for protection.

As opposed to the usefulness of true chainmail bikinis? :smallwink:

chaotoroboto
2010-09-12, 12:27 PM
I'm curious to see how this shakes out with a table full of first- or second-time gamers, all female, that I'm DMing on Monday. The game is being formed because several of the people I know brought their girlfriends/wives to games only to have them sexually harassed by one of the players - one specific player - who got kicked out of my group a couple of weeks ago, and several other games at the same time. But because of Creepo, they never learned the rules or how to play, and the DMs thinking it was disinterest invited other people to join their games. Even though it wasn't an explicitly all girls' game, by the time I had my fourth girl signed up and mentioned bringing in a male player who hadn't played any 4E, every girl individually was like "but it's a girls game. No guys." Note that I'm a guy.

I've told the players to think through how they want to kill things, in rough terms: Hit them in the face with an axe, blow them up, ht them in the face with a hammer, melt them with God-light, riddle them with arrows, hit them in the face with a sword, curse them to die of horrible diseases only pretty much immediately, etc. And I've talked to them about giving their characters personality, etc. but I'm saving most of that for a character creation workshop tomorrow night.

In most of my male-centric games I've straight up banned cross-playing, because the only time it ever comes up is when I get to watch 30 year old men, instead of roleplaying, pretend to grope each other. I am letting the one girl in my Thursday group play a hermaphroditic dwarf, we'll see how that goes.

So what happens in a woman only game? I doubt that they'll play men, although it's possible. I'm not planning on mentioning it, and seeing who comes up with the idea on her own. I don't think I'm going to ban it because frankly, I don't think it's going to matter. With the exception of one of my players, all the girls in this game have recently been divorced, sexually harassed by a supposed friend, or otherwise had their femininity undermined. So I expect a "girl power" theme to show up pretty quickly.

I'm expecting characters that Milla Johovovovovovich (sp?) could play the role of in the movies. I'd be shocked if much thought is put into how revealingly clothed they are. I do kind of expect them to fall closely along well explored tropes, as that's kind of the basis for starting building a character. Whether those tropes are explicitly female, I won't know until game begins.

I'll probably post what happens tomorrow night back in this thread.

ThunderCat
2010-09-12, 04:40 PM
The problem I have with the sultry, bikini-mail wearing female lies in the very idea of "American decency." Historically, certain cultures fought with little to no clothing. Fantasy literature is also filled with heroic men who want nothing more than a woman by their side and flaunt their manhood at every opportunity.

I have no problem with a naked, promiscuous woman because fantasy literature is filled with men of the same type. What I do have a problem with is that sex in America is taboo more so than blood, guts, and carnage. Fantasy artists have to draw bikini armor in order to keep their women sexy but covered.Let me get this straight: Your problem with the chainmail bikini is not that it is an utterly implausible and sometimes downright painful costume which completely removes any 'noble savage/barbarian' connotations that the fur loincloths of the male characters invoke and instead leads the thoughts in the direction of harem girls, but rather that the top has not been removed from it, leaving a couple of utterly implausible and sometimes downright painful chainmail panties, which, apart from being tighter and more revealing than what any of the male characters are wearing, also leave the oversized breasts of the women completely bared despite the fact that having breasts that size bounce up and down for extended periods of time is extremely uncomfortable and impractical? :smalleek:

Sorry, but as much as I'm opposed to the whole taboo about female nipples, I don't think it's much of an issue when it comes to portraying female warriors. Because female warriors would, historically, almost always have their breasts covered, unless they were very small-chested (which many of them were). There's no reason to criticise covered breasts on a historical basis, when there are so much more relevant issues to attack :smallamused:: The anachronistic nature of the costume, the impracticality of the material, the overly large breasts, the lack of adequate support for said overly large breasts, and so on. Whether or not a nipple is flashed is really the least of my worries in that regard.

I think the issue is more that artists have felt the need to go such great lengths to keep female characters sexed up that they've completely compromised what these characters were supposed to be about :smallfrown: If you're illustrating 'Slavegirl of Gor', of course you ought to make the heroine naked and curvaceously skinny, but if you're trying to portray a savage warrior woman, perhaps fur and an athletic build would come in handy instead?

EDIT: chaotoroboto, that sounds like a very interesting group. I've never played in an all-girl group myself, I can't wait to hear about how it works (if it works :smallwink:).

WarKitty
2010-09-12, 04:49 PM
So the proper analog for the man in a loincloth would probably be the barbarian with a band of fabric around her breasts and...a loincloth.

It gets ridiculous when you have the heavy-armor types in cleavage and midriff baring outfits however.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 05:05 PM
So the proper analog for the man in a loincloth would probably be the barbarian with a band of fabric around her breasts and...a loincloth.

Probably. Or just a woman in a loincloth, depending on build.

As for the heavy armor types, it does get absurd. Its bad enough when they do form fitting mail (yeah, mail is going to be really helpful without thick padding under it), but giant holes are just abnoxious. Also, helmets. They need to appear more.

Coidzor
2010-09-12, 05:06 PM
It gets ridiculous when you have the heavy-armor types in cleavage and midriff baring outfits however.

I doubt you can find anyone in disagreement with that.

Mando Knight
2010-09-12, 07:53 PM
Also, helmets. They need to appear more.

Real Heroes never wear helmets, unless they expose the face. A face concealing mask (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MalevolentMaskedMen) is only permissible good-guy equipment in Sentai-type Tokusatsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Toku), or when the character is either horribly disfigured (possibly in their own minds only (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinorInjuryOverreaction)) or trying to hide who exactly they are (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretIdentity).

Or if the helmet/mask is so impossibly badass that a bare face couldn't stand up to it.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-12, 08:58 PM
Or if the helmet/mask is so impossibly badass that a bare face couldn't stand up to it.Which is the optimal case. Alternatively, you're holding your totally awesome helmet under your shoulder before and after the battle.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 09:07 PM
Or if the helmet/mask is so impossibly badass that a bare face couldn't stand up to it.

This? This needs to happen more often.

Reluctance
2010-09-12, 09:32 PM
With all this hate on the chainmail bikini, I wonder what's good art that's good for both realistic protection and looking awesome? Fantasy art cares more about the latter than the former, so what artists should art departments be looking more into?

And to chaotoroboto, that sounds awesome, but asking how they want to kill things should be lower on the question list. Girls in general tend to be more into party op than character op, so letting them sort out roles should be more helpful.

The only other thing I've noticed is that girls are more motivation-focused than guys. Not "my character is a jerk, so acting like a jerk is in character", but that they're happier developing relationships with NPCs and the world around them. Do ensure intercharacter bonds before the game begins, do have skill challenges prepared to allow them to make a positive impact, and do make sure they have reasons for taking down the bad guy other than "he's evil and he has treasure". (Not that you shouldn't do these things for boys as well, but boys you can autopilot more with. Girls, you run the risk of them decide they'd rather rebuild the village than chase down the dastardly bandits that torched it.)

Morithias
2010-09-12, 09:53 PM
My word on this?

http://www.kkpmc.net/pm3/pm3_endmil.htm

Picture 1: done right if something like a monk, or no-armor build. Maybe if you had bracers of armor and were a rogue.

Pictures 2-4: Armor done right. Keep in mind that armor in dnd isn't meant to be gender based. The Studded Leather you buy as a girl, in theory should be the exact same Leather you would buy as a guy of the same size.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 09:58 PM
Do ensure intercharacter bonds before the game begins, do have skill challenges prepared to allow them to make a positive impact, and do make sure they have reasons for taking down the bad guy other than "he's evil and he has treasure". (Not that you shouldn't do these things for boys as well, but boys you can autopilot more with. Girls, you run the risk of them decide they'd rather rebuild the village than chase down the dastardly bandits that torched it.)

You should always do this, regardless of gender. And one of the most fun ways is to give PCs guards, troops, other sorts of followers, etc.

WarKitty
2010-09-12, 10:02 PM
My word on this?

http://www.kkpmc.net/pm3/pm3_endmil.htm

Picture 1: done right if something like a monk, or no-armor build. Maybe if you had bracers of armor and were a rogue.

Pictures 2-4: Armor done right. Keep in mind that armor in dnd isn't meant to be gender based. The Studded Leather you buy as a girl, in theory should be the exact same Leather you would buy as a guy of the same size.

Picture one actually looks rather uncomfortable. That...thing...wouldn't actually provide much support. Active women wear sports bras for a reason.


With all this hate on the chainmail bikini, I wonder what's good art that's good for both realistic protection and looking awesome? Fantasy art cares more about the latter than the former, so what artists should art departments be looking more into?

And to chaotoroboto, that sounds awesome, but asking how they want to kill things should be lower on the question list. Girls in general tend to be more into party op than character op, so letting them sort out roles should be more helpful.

The only other thing I've noticed is that girls are more motivation-focused than guys. Not "my character is a jerk, so acting like a jerk is in character", but that they're happier developing relationships with NPCs and the world around them. Do ensure intercharacter bonds before the game begins, do have skill challenges prepared to allow them to make a positive impact, and do make sure they have reasons for taking down the bad guy other than "he's evil and he has treasure". (Not that you shouldn't do these things for boys as well, but boys you can autopilot more with. Girls, you run the risk of them decide they'd rather rebuild the village than chase down the dastardly bandits that torched it.)

You have obviously never gamed with my group. The "I want to go back and finish wiping them out for the xp and treasure!" people are all female.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 10:10 PM
You have obviously never gamed with my group. The "I want to go back and finish wiping them out for the xp and treasure!" people are all female.

I have never had a male player like this at all either. Of course, I usually abstract wealth, and the systems I use never grant xp for combat in particular.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 10:26 PM
I've gamed with 2 people who were "I want to go back and finish wiping them out for the xp and treasure!" One male, one female. For less extreme examples... I've seen 8 Kick in the Door players; 6 of them new players (4 of those in a kick in the door game), 1 of them a casual gamer that just came to be with friends, and 1 of them my little brother (who was trying to get better).

Sir Homeslice
2010-09-12, 11:06 PM
You mean the game that gave us this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Hilde.png

?

My eyesight might be bad, but Hilde's armor is concave, leading attacks right into the center of her torso. And that's bad. Also it's still very boob-platey.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-09-12, 11:14 PM
Y'know, the amazons and their bow-drawing...

Yeah, just waiting for the barbarian queen One-Melon with the Willing Deformity feat.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 11:17 PM
My eyesight might be bad, but Hilde's armor is concave, leading attacks right into the center of her torso. And that's bad. Also it's still very boob-platey.

Sure, but that much could happen due to the people behind Soul Calibur not having any real knowledge on armor. A mail bikini, less so.

Serpentine
2010-09-12, 11:38 PM
Y'know, the amazons and their bow-drawing...

Yeah, just waiting for the barbarian queen One-Melon with the Willing Deformity feat.Fun fact: the boob-chopping was, I think, mentioned in one or two texts, but the majority did not mention it, and there are no artistic depictions of one-boobed Amazons.
As an aside, I'm kinda thinking an Amazon could be fun to play... But the place they'd probably be most appropriate is a mini-continent like a cross between Jurassic Park and Dinotopia that is only likely to get any play a campaign or two into the future :smallfrown:

Reluctance: Well, for starters, how do they manage it with male characters? Have a look in the Cheesecake thread, anyway. There's plenty of chainmail bikini type things, but there's also lots of more sensible art.

WarKitty
2010-09-12, 11:54 PM
Ok I am going to embark on a project to produce a suit of armor that is both functional and feminine and sexy.

Avilan the Grey
2010-09-13, 02:24 AM
Dragon Age has much better armor than most other games. But there's still dalish leather armor, which is a leather bikini.
Which really sucks, because some of them have really good stats, but I can't use them without gauging my eyes out.

Picky: Not a leather bikini. A leather workout outfit.

Shademan
2010-09-13, 02:56 AM
chaotoroboto: let us know how it went
Warkitty: send pics

Arbane
2010-09-13, 08:15 AM
I'm curious to see how this shakes out with a table full of first- or second-time gamers, all female, that I'm DMing on Monday.

(SNIP)

I'll probably post what happens tomorrow night back in this thread.

Sounds cool. Let us know how it goes!

Marnath
2010-09-14, 02:46 PM
Ok I am going to embark on a project to produce a suit of armor that is both functional and feminine and sexy.

Last I knew from the You thread you'd already done that with cardboard. :smallwink:
Or did you mean make it out of real stuff?

WarKitty
2010-09-14, 02:47 PM
Last I knew from the You thread you'd already done that with cardboard. :smallwink:
Or did you mean make it out of real stuff?

Haha, that wasn't even designed for "sexy." The main motivation was to provide flexibility for the shoulders.

I meant a realistic-looking graphic design.

Marnath
2010-09-14, 02:56 PM
Haha, that wasn't even designed for "sexy." The main motivation was to provide flexibility for the shoulders.

I meant a realistic-looking graphic design.

I suppose I was mislead by how much less ambitious I am in my costume making than you apparently are. :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2010-09-14, 03:09 PM
Dragon Age has much better armor than most other games. But there's still dalish leather armor, which is a leather bikini.
Which really sucks, because some of them have really good stats, but I can't use them without gauging my eyes out.

Dragon Quest IX is even less ashamed of its blatantly ridiculous items. At least two kinds of bikini bottoms, a pair of invisible pants, and at least one kind of skirt are all better than "gigasteel" leg armor. A maid's headdress is barely beaten in defensive power by a halo, which is the next best thing before the Infinity Minus One helmet.

Of course, it's Japanese (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WidgetSeries), so most other countries will take that as an excuse...

Kris Strife
2010-09-14, 03:37 PM
Dragon Quest IX is even less ashamed of its blatantly ridiculous items. At least two kinds of bikini bottoms, a pair of invisible pants, and at least one kind of skirt are all better than "gigasteel" leg armor. A maid's headdress is barely beaten in defensive power by a halo, which is the next best thing before the Infinity Minus One helmet.

Of course, it's Japanese (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WidgetSeries), so most other countries will take that as an excuse...

Its also a comedic game with plenty of camp in it. :smalltongue:

Marnath
2010-09-14, 03:51 PM
I'm pretty sure it's not the same game he meant either. He said dragon AGE. :smallsmile:

Mando Knight
2010-09-14, 10:48 PM
I'm pretty sure it's not the same game he meant either. He said dragon AGE. :smallsmile:

I understood that. It's just that Dragon Quest, especially IX (whose main selling point in Japan was basically "Dragon Quest! With a much larger number of outfit models than usual!"), flaunts the trope rather than just use it.

chaotoroboto
2010-09-15, 02:39 AM
Well, not much happened in this session. I ran them through two mini combats, using role-based, level 1 NPCs with simple cards. That let me show them how to hide, how to charge, how to shoot, how to shift, how to roll attacks, how to roll damage, what bloodied values mean, etc. There are currently four people at this game, one of whom is in my Thursday game that's been running since January, two who have played 3.5 for one-shots or short-arc games, and one who had never played anything d20 before. I did have to do the full explanation of "You roll a d20 and add it to some number that seems appropriate." I also told them that what they can do is say what they WANT to do and then we'll work together to figure out how to make it happen.

Then I pulled out a character that I'd built, and we discussed what the different skills are, how skill rolls work, how the different attack, damage, defense, etc scores are derived from the ability scores, proficiency bonuses, magic items, etc. We flipped through the PHB 1 and 2 classes and races, I described a little about how the choice of race and class effects gameplay style, and we talked about the different roles in tactical combat. I told them there were other races and classes in other books, but since those were the two I had physical copies of, that's where I'd like for them to start so they have a chance to scan, flip over, re-read, etc.

So: my ringer held off on saying what she wanted to play.

The first girl said, upon seeing the option in the book, that she wanted to make a two weapon barbarian, so she could hit things with her sword as hard as possible, and then hit them with another sword. She thought the Goliath was an ideal choice to match this concept, and so we went through Character Builder while everyone crowded around the laptop, and I showed how character builder works, and how the stat point buy works, what adding feats can mean, how to go shopping, etc.

While we were working on this, the True Rookie had decided that selling her soul to Satan in order to set people on fire was the perfect concept for a character for her to play, and so we set about discussing options for an Infernal Warlock. She's thinking Tiefling or Sparkle-Elf.

The other girl, with some small experience, decided that she was going to make Mugen from Samurai Champloo (except a girl), and read through Ranger, Fighter and Rogue and decided that Rogue matched best. She demurred on Half Orc so she could be a pretty, feminine, Mugen-from-Samurai-Champloo-except-a-girl, and will probably play a human.

So yeah, all the newbies chose strikers. Two melee, one ranged.

My ringer had mentioned wanting to play a bard, and I think that's a good choice because it offers some healing and some control. I'll probably NPC in a simple fighter type if she does.

I've decided to run the Chaos Scar adventure path both because of its simplicity, its level of player choice, and the variety of the encounters at low levels.

So next game, we'll discuss the conceptual setting, and work on how their characters might have arrived at this area, and with some fuzzy concept we'll charge ahead into character builder. Once there, we'll try and tighten down the whole thing, and start in on the first adventure.

Oh hey, I just thought about the fact that I have the FR book somewhere - should I show Swordmage to the Mugen player?

imp_fireball
2010-09-16, 04:14 PM
Granted, the chainmail bikini does have some logic behind it -

1. It's not for war. It's underwear. The society the girl descended from lived in an atmopshere of great metal industry and militarism. Hence every man and woman is a warrior, explaining how the woman knows how to fight.

the metal industry was pretty much the only thing this tribe could make - they had to trade for other things. Simple common goods like underwear and clothing are all metal since they can't be expected to depend on trade for simple common goods needed for survival. But made metal well (includes master work and ornate, precision forging, etc.), since the society/tribe/whatever had been crafting it for generations.

Also, cleaning metal requires no animal based things (the society knows nothing of husbandry) - just some other derivative chemicals that the society manages to produce in their desire to produce better metal, such as anti-rust agents.

2. Not all barbarians wear hide/leather/cloth. War-like african tribes could typically acquire iron and smelt it into cruder weapons in the real world (shaka zhulu had iron weapons) - this could extend to regular clothing (not so much armor, since that requires lots of testing) if it becomes an obsession for such a tribe. You could have a tribe of primitive dwarves living in a mountain near a great iron vein. Maybe some humans lived among them too, at least one of whom was an attractive woman. Life is harsh in the hardly inhabited mountains, considering other dirt dwelling creatures live there, like certain goblins, kobolds, and whatever other things.

The dwarves have no husbandry and their natural preoccupation with all things metal and stone has given the tribe an industry solely rooted in metal production - stone production would take too much time out of their days since it is saught after in the interest of carving out homes (which takes long enough already and is dangerous) - also great architecture requires more than their meager population.
-----


Chainmail bikinis were invented by men who will never have to wear one. Seriously, I look at some of the pictures in the PHB, and just go Ouch!

Of course they were invented by men, considering regular panties were invented by men. :smallamused:


the half-elf in their mid to late twenties (so the elven equivalent of a 10 year old according to Races of the Wild and the 2e Complete Book of Elves).

25 is 18 in regards to physical maturity for elves according to races of wild (and beyond that, they hardly appear to age at all). Also, most elves are at least 100 before they marry (they don't value marriage as a necessary aspect of one's life). I don't know how you could have read that wrong.

onthetown
2010-09-16, 08:19 PM
"Oh Em Gee! I am super happy and bubbly and optimistic! I am not at all a grizzled veteran of war despite being level 20! Heehee! Hold my backpack while I kick the bad guys with my super sexy stiletto boots! kthx!"

Honestly: I've never seen or heard of a male bubbly, child-like D&D character who isn't a kender or gnome.

And heels are not functional for adventuring outfits.

imp_fireball
2010-09-16, 08:55 PM
And heels are not functional for adventuring outfits.

-2 balance checks. You kidding me? At 20th you can do what you damn well want.

Petrocorus
2010-09-16, 11:07 PM
When? Vikings (often depicted as loincloth + shoulder pad) were scale mail + armor and heavy furs when they weren't raiding. Even Gladiators wore armor in a fair amount of places, although they didn't wear shirts I'll give you that.
Many Celtic (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:NAMA_Galate.jpg) tribes worn nothing or only loin clothes for fighting.



Video games is a different matter of course. Although I don't think there's that many games where the warrior women wears the bikini. It's usually the wizards who ends up looking like skanks. Unless it's the wuxia/martial arts kind of warrior women I suppose.

Warhammer and all is derivative (warhammer online notably) have the Dark Elves Witch and Sorceress. For those who don't know the Witch are melee fighter.

The other races usually avert the bikini.

Serpentine
2010-09-16, 11:08 PM
And +4 ankle-breaking chance.
25 is 18 in regards to physical maturity for elves according to races of wild (and beyond that, they hardly appear to age at all). Also, most elves are at least 100 before they marry (they don't value marriage as a necessary aspect of one's life). I don't know how you could have read that wrong.It's my understanding that elves are physically mature at 20 - that is, about the human equivalent of 16ish - but not considered emotionally mature (say, human 25ish) until 100+.

Spiryt
2010-09-17, 12:35 AM
Many Celtic (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:NAMA_Galate.jpg) tribes worn nothing or only loin clothes for fighting.


When you can go to battle in shirt and pants, you can as well go naked, with raised hair and stuff to show your male prowess and bravery.


When you however were wealtier warrior, who could afford good equipment, you would wear mail, bronze or steel helmet, and sometimes even greaves or stuff like that - Celtic tribes were indeed thriving around whole Europe at some point, so there would be many differences.

http://dawneuzbrojenie.republika.pl/cz33i.jpg

Linky (http://celtowie-bydgoszcz.bloog.pl/?ticaid=6ae67)

Still I'm not sure how the material culture of Celtic tribes anyhow comparable to your average fantasy setting.... Where hero can basically have any armor or equipment he wants usually. :smallwink:

Petrocorus
2010-09-17, 12:41 AM
When you can go to battle in shirt and pants, you can as well go naked, with raised hair and stuff to show your male prowess and bravery.


When you however were wealtier warrior, who could afford good equipment, you would wear mail, bronze or steel helmet, and sometimes even greaves or stuff like that - Celtic tribes were indeed thriving around whole Europe at some point, so there would be many differences.

AFAIK, there were some Celtic tribes who were doing this on purpose, despite having the mean to be armoured. Chain mail was invented by the Celts, after all. IIRC, they were doing this to show there prowess as you say, and to intimidate, like "i'm so sure i'll own you i don't need any armour."

Quincunx
2010-09-17, 04:45 AM
"Oh Em Gee! I am super happy and bubbly and optimistic! I am not at all a grizzled veteran of war despite being level 20! Heehee! Hold my backpack while I kick the bad guys with my super sexy stiletto boots! kthx!"

Honestly: I've never seen or heard of a male bubbly, child-like D&D character who isn't a kender or gnome.

And heels are not functional for adventuring outfits.

. . .Hm. I have known male child-minds. Not sure they still count as counter-examples if they changed race to gnom(i)e following my race change to gnom(i)e and seeing how much more cheerful chaos one can raise with access to gnomish tinker goodies. Even as elves though, their response to explosive failure was a gasp of admiration and "I have got to learn how to do that". (In real life, they are both engineering majors. Be afraid. Be very afraid.)

Miss I've-welded-Jimmy-Choo-sandals-onto-my-full-plate-boots* was definitely female though. Frighteningly intelligent. Absolutely taking a break from her serious and intellectual day job. Female.

*no brand acknowledgment, no heals

imp_fireball
2010-09-17, 04:07 PM
And +4 ankle-breaking chance.It's my understanding that elves are physically mature at 20 - that is, about the human equivalent of 16ish - but not considered emotionally mature (say, human 25ish) until 100+.

No they are emotionally mature at the same rate as humans. They are physically mature at 25 (it says so right in the books).



Elves could have potentially hundreds of times more life experience and maturity than humans, but their society is very relaxed. They are all individualists - imagine yourself living in a society where the public policy is literally 'do what you want'. Elves can be as foolish as humans but eventually they learn from having made many mistakes (humans are pre-emptively prevented on the other hand).

The only elves who teach the elf life skills are the parents - they aren't expected to jump into much else. It's all of their own initiative. Although an elf probably receives less respect if they are less skilled, less creatively verbose, less intelligent, etc.

Humans are horribly weak minded, but it is that weakness and anger that propels us towards ambition, which is perhaps the strongest asset that any human can take advantage of. Our natural weakness, both physical, mental and emotional, propels us at light speed to grow up rapidly in a harsh world and work really damn hard (at least that's how it was in the middle ages).

Elves on the other hand are practically anti-ambition. Foolish elves might accidentally assume things but aren't immediately revealed as foolish (they demonstrate incredible social skills and intelligence in that regard considering most of them have lived quite long in such a free range environment as the forests, etc.).

Elves are stunned by the rate at which humans throw themselves into challenges. If they look at a human, say, 2 years younger from an 18 year old - they'd notice flaws from lack of experience that seem 100 miles wide and beleive that such humans would require at least 20 or more years to recover from.

But the incredible adaptive capabilities of mankind reflect on the fact that a human can change remarkably from age 16 to 18. Some elves admit that they have a lot to learn from mankind.

Serpentine
2010-09-18, 12:16 AM
No they are emotionally mature at the same rate as humans. They are physically mature at 25 (it says so right in the books).I was only 5 years off on the physical maturity, which doesn't effect my point. It seems Races of the Wild considers them "mentally mature" then, too, but other passages still suggest to me that elves do not consider a person really adult until after 100. These include: "Elves rarely feel that they’re ready to settle down and begin families before they’re at least 100 years old", "The random starting age for elves is simply the age at which many elf adventurers feel ready to leave their forests and roam the world outside for a time.", "Upon reaching the age of 20, a child is usually fostered
out to an older relative, either in the same community or another. This relative is one who has the time and energy to teach the youngster an advanced craft. A child may be fostered with several relatives before finally coming of age", and possibly others I've missed.
Also, it is mentioned several times that elven children spend a great deal of time in foster care learning a variety of skills from numerous community members - very much not only learning life skills from the parents.

Frosty
2010-09-18, 12:19 AM
How elves take so long to reach level 1 is beyond me. Even V laments about it in the comic :smallbiggrin: Or did he only lament about wizarding training taking so long? Forgot.

imp_fireball
2010-09-18, 01:53 AM
How elves take so long to reach level 1 is beyond me. Even V laments about it in the comic :smallbiggrin: Or did he only lament about wizarding training taking so long? Forgot.

He lamented about wizarding taking so long for him and not Elan.

Also, you don't have to settle down to become an adult. That doesn't make you mature prerequisitely. {{scrubbed}}


This relative is one who has the time and energy to teach the youngster an advanced craft. A child may be fostered with several relatives before finally coming of age", and possibly others I've missed.


That's identical to the concept of apprenticeship. Also, 20 for an elf is about 13 or 14 for a human.

Being 'fostered' doesn't necessarily share the same meaning. Elves probably foster because they don't care about concepts like 'he needs to become independent' or 'he needs to learn values' and 'we need actively take measures to make sure he learns', like humans do - it's all a product of humans 'probably' not living as long, hence they jump right into life and get things done and are dreadfully fearful of any children falling behind.

If a person has 100 years to 'figure himself out', then people will never worry about him becoming independent, because chances are he will be independent and mature inevitably - unless he's incredibly insane and/or brain damaged. By 100, they aren't so much as 'finally mature' as, 'this is the point where I turn over another leaf in my life... y'know, it's boring around here, I'll think I'll do something fun and (if not) I'll settle down. Y'know I've been with a heck of a lot of mates in a heck of a lot of relationships and I finally think I'm ready to settle down... otherwise, living here sucks and I wanna go out and adventure because I'm ambitious like that.'

Also 'coming of age' can have several meanings, even in human culture. In human culture, the nerdy virgin is required to come of age by finally getting laid or getting broken into a military lifestyle if they think he's too soft and weak - this doesn't mean he's any more mature than he was before.

Coming of age for elves could mean 'measuring up' to those of middle age (100 years +) in the range of their vocations and hobbies, etc. It's a social thing. Not at all psychological/physical.

Serpentine
2010-09-18, 03:45 AM
Also, you don't have to settle down to become an adult. That doesn't make you mature prerequisitely. Honestly, don't argue with me if you aren't even sure what the definition of adult or mature is.For the ancient Romans, a "youth" could be up to 15 or up to 25 or anywhere in-between. If you can give me a good, comprehensive, universally accepted definition of adult and mature, we will argue on those terms. In the meantime, don't be rude.

That's identical to the concept of apprenticeship. Also, 20 for an elf is about 13 or 14 for a human.1. On what basis do you make that claim? And 2. so what?

Being 'fostered' doesn't necessarily share the same meaning. Elves probably foster because they don't care about concepts like 'he needs to become independent' or 'he needs to learn values' and 'we need actively take measures to make sure he learns', like humans do - it's all a product of humans 'probably' not living as long, hence they jump right into life and get things done and are dreadfully fearful of any children falling behind.Actually, those are exactly the sorts of reasons listed in Races of the Wild - fostering out to a variety of community members instils a sense of independence and self-sufficiency, as well as learning a variety of skills and values.
By 100, they aren't so much as 'finally mature' as, 'this is the point where I turn over another leaf in my life... y'know, it's boring around here, I'll think I'll do something fun and (if not) I'll settle down. Y'know I've been with a heck of a lot of mates in a heck of a lot of relationships and I finally think I'm ready to settle down... otherwise, living here sucks and I wanna go out and adventure because I'm ambitious like that.'You mean like, say, a 20-year-old human?

Also 'coming of age' can have several meanings, even in human culture. In human culture, the nerdy virgin is required to come of age by finally getting laid or getting broken into a military lifestyle if they think he's too soft and weak - this doesn't mean he's any more mature than he was before.No, but it does mean that in the eyes of his society he is now considered "adult".

Not at all psychological/physical.I would like to draw your attention to my original words, bolded for emphasis:
It's my understanding that elves are physically mature at 20 - that is, about the human equivalent of 16ish - but not considered emotionally mature (say, human 25ish) until 100+.

Marnath
2010-09-18, 10:40 AM
I've always assumed the slow development of elven mentality is a cultural thing as opposed to it actually taking that long to mature mentally. I'd imagine an elf raised by humans would probably be ready to adventure not too long after his human friends. I can imagine he'd be pretty vexing for his elders considering how likely it would be for him to have learned our idea of "patience." :smalltongue:

darkpuppy
2010-09-18, 11:07 AM
Still I'm not sure how the material culture of Celtic tribes anyhow comparable to your average fantasy setting.... Where hero can basically have any armor or equipment he wants usually. :smallwink:

Actually, being Welsh, I have no small stake in proving what an interesting people we were. For example, we deliberately made slightly flawed goods, because if something was perfect, we had to "give it to the Gods", and that wasn't exactly good for business. So yeah. We were also used by the Romans as a training camp. If you survived Wales, you were some of the most hardcore soldiers in the Roman Legions. Our mythology (some of which the English shamelessly stole and christianised) was quite varied. Good example, read the decent translations of The Mabinogion, IE - the ones that don't call them nobles, but quite rightly point out that they're demigods, and don't make the schoolboy mistake of calling Annwn the "land of the dead" or "land of the fairies"... Etymological bit here... Annwn could very well be a corruption of "An Hwn", which effectively means "not here".

Anyways, with that small pro-Celtic rant over, back to the subject... it's definitely the extremity of the stereotypes that get most roleplayers and DMs annoyed as all heck. The skank is definitely one of the ones I smack down on players hard for, but flirting (within reason) is fine, and even gets some interesting in-character chemistry flowing. The stay-at-home types generally don't make it into a game at all unless their home is destroyed, which generally changes them into some other character type, so that's fine, and I'm generally with the functional armour crowd in being annoyed with the chainmail bikini. After all, I'm the guy who read "Azure Bonds" and immediately thought "A diamond shape cut in the mail at the heart? oh, you poor cow, you're dead in minutes!"

Basically, the ditzy schoolgirl, the skank, and the stay-at-home-50s-stereotype generally don't make it into my games. So long as they are not extreme, the ice-queen and driven-businesswoman are generally fine.

Coidzor
2010-09-18, 12:05 PM
Of course, fridge logic sets in when you realize they don't have any boosts to skills or skillpoints from that whole 80 years(i.e. a really good human lifetime) of learning trades, about life, and picking up skills from hanging around and being trained by a variety of their elders.

Also, perhaps telling is how often even other women's critiques of such things are rooted in misogynistic language...

darkpuppy
2010-09-18, 12:08 PM
Also, perhaps telling is how often even other women's critiques of such things are rooted in misogynistic language...

Well yeah, because the worst stereotypes are always misogynistic, and naturally have misogynistic names.

EDIT: Much more interesting is that male stereotypes are not Androgynistic (even though that etymologically makes sense), and do not, last I checked, have a word for them.

Coidzor
2010-09-18, 12:16 PM
EDIT: Much more interesting is that male stereotypes are not Androgynistic (even though that etymologically makes sense), and do not, last I checked, have a word for them.

Well, andro + gyne either makes babies or muddles the two of them up. :smallwink:

Basically, if a male stereotype were androgynistic, it wouldn't be a male stereotype, it'd be a stereotype that could go either way for male or female.

Petrocorus
2010-09-18, 12:19 PM
I fail to understand everything.
Are you speaking of misandric stereotype?

darkpuppy
2010-09-18, 12:56 PM
*laughs* misandric, that's what I was looking for! Okay, I happily stand corrected!

EDIT: Darkpuppy Etymology roll (1d20) [1, suck it up!]

Marnath
2010-09-18, 01:14 PM
I fail to understand everything.
Are you speaking of misandric stereotype?

Good catch. :smallsmile:
I find it ironic you knew that particular one when most native speakers don't. :smalltongue:

Heliomance
2010-09-18, 01:18 PM
Actually, being Welsh, I have no small stake in proving what an interesting people we were. For example, we deliberately made slightly flawed goods, because if something was perfect, we had to "give it to the Gods", and that wasn't exactly good for business. So yeah. We were also used by the Romans as a training camp. If you survived Wales, you were some of the most hardcore soldiers in the Roman Legions. Our mythology (some of which the English shamelessly stole and christianised) was quite varied. Good example, read the decent translations of The Mabinogion, IE - the ones that don't call them nobles, but quite rightly point out that they're demigods, and don't make the schoolboy mistake of calling Annwn the "land of the dead" or "land of the fairies"... Etymological bit here... Annwn could very well be a corruption of "An Hwn", which effectively means "not here".


Ooh, do you have a link? Currently very interested in any mythology going, what with running an "all myths are true" campaign soon.

darkpuppy
2010-09-18, 01:28 PM
Sure, any old translation will do, so long as you keep in mind that they're effectively demigods, not nobles, and don't make assumptions about Annwn. This link should do you alright, gonna double check it now in a sec. The branch of Branwen is particularly good for Bendigeidfran...

http://www.webmesh.co.uk/Mabinogionhomepage.htm

Petrocorus
2010-09-18, 02:11 PM
Good catch. :smallsmile:
I find it ironic you knew that particular one when most native speakers don't. :smalltongue:

Easy, it's the same in French. Since it's a word from greek etymology.

Marnath
2010-09-18, 02:31 PM
Oh, is it? Well I guess that just proves that I don't know anything about etymology. :smallsmile:

Petrocorus
2010-09-18, 03:55 PM
Oh, is it? Well I guess that just proves that I don't know anything about etymology. :smallsmile:

Many (maybe most) of the English word with a Latin or Greek etymology have actually come into English through French.

Serpentine
2010-09-18, 11:50 PM
Yeah, well, most of our really useful words came from the Vikings, so ner :smalltongue:

Petrocorus
2010-09-18, 11:58 PM
I don't know if you've studied German, but there are really many words which are really close, even almost the same that in English, notably the verbs.

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 12:33 AM
For the ancient Romans, a "youth" could be up to 15 or up to 25 or anywhere in-between. If you can give me a good, comprehensive, universally accepted definition of adult and mature, we will argue on those terms. In the meantime, don't be rude.

Mature as in physically mature. It's almost a scientific term.

And I only try to be rude to those I suspect of willing ignorance. No offense.



1. On what basis do you make that claim? And 2. so what?

On the basis of fiction. Since there's no other basis to put it on - races of wild is seriously the most in-depth I've seen of D&D elves. The basis of 'fostering' after the parents give up the child in order to 'learn a new skill'
is identical to apprenticeship (here, I'll look after you in exchange for you learning a new skill of mine).

Honestly, what other purpose is there? It could be benevolence, but elves aren't naturally good aligned (except for 'usually good' or whatever the setting prescribes) so chances are they do it for the benefit of their own trades as well.

Also, twenty is fairly mature for an elf - so like, "Mature enough to learn a new skill? You're learning a new skill, this is the only reason I'm taking you in. You are old enough to appreciate this sort of thing."

Note that still, elf society is a lot easier than human society - which is why elves that crave stimulation are encouraged to adventure.

Also, the explanation that 'fostering' relates to 'apprenticeship' only opens up the next point of my argument.



Actually, those are exactly the sorts of reasons listed in Races of the Wild - fostering out to a variety of community members instils a sense of independence and self-sufficiency, as well as learning a variety of skills and values.

I'm being liberal with my assumptions, sure... but what I really meant to say was that this is a natural process for elves - parents, even though they shove them into things, don't expect to learn super quickly. They just say, 'this is the next stage of your life, as my father and his mother before him underwent; you can grow up/become wiser whenever'.


You mean like, say, a 20-year-old human?

Ahem, not ALL 20 year old humans are like this. And not all have been in literally one hundred relationships (possible for an elf before they adventure). What I'm saying is that elves live in decadence to the point that they make the decision to leave - they aren't ever even encouraged to leave or 'move out', unlike in human society.

Also, I'm referring to 'leave your entire country and venture into the great unknown', not 'move out but still remain in the society you grew up in, possibly all your life since you get to know everyone living here'.

Elves on the other hand, live long enough to get tired of seeing the same people. They find everyone so predictable because they know everyone because they've lived long enough to meet everyone within two hundred kilometers more than once.

They may have been in a relationship with every girl who has been in a relationship with every guy. They've lived over 100 years before they decide to see the greater world because they realize that nothing new will ever happen where they live since everything is so controlled and reserved and uninteresting despite what may seem so majestic to other races - elves get like that after a few centuries.



No, but it does mean that in the eyes of his society he is now considered "adult".

That has social and not scientific meaning. And even then, it is only 'social meaning' among a tight knit community - say, college campus.



I would like to draw your attention to my original words, bolded for emphasis

Oh here it comes. Takes me outta context. And then...



It's my understanding that elves are physically mature at 20 - that is, about the human equivalent of 16ish - but not considered emotionally mature (say, human 25ish) until 100+.

A quote containing an improperly researched assumption that I already tried to address. Yeah.

Sorry, but that kinda irks me.

Serpentine
2010-09-19, 12:39 AM
I wasn't talking about "physically mature", which we have already established occurs by 20ish in humans and several years later in elves. I was talking about emotionally mature, which is as much cultural as anything else - which is what I was talking about.
And there is never any excuse for bad manners, which are always offensive.
I don't know if you've studied German, but there are really many words which are really close, even almost the same that in English, notably the verbs.Well, it is a Germanic language. But you couldn't "be born, live or die" in English without the Vikings. Or eat eggs.

gdiddy
2010-09-19, 12:43 AM
Maturity is relative.

In most modern American cultures, even in formal corporate settings, it's not derogatory to refer to a younger member of a team as the "kid."

Further, you'll notice that there aren't many 25-year old CEOs or Congressmen. The be the President of the United States, you must be over 35. You can enlist to the army in this modern example at the age of 17.

Bear all this in mind, when I ask the following question: Considering the oft-portrayed Elven arrogance, how can a completely capable Elf at the age of 50 be taken seriously?

Serpentine
2010-09-19, 12:59 AM
I think they'd be considered something like a university student: sure, they have a good education, but no life experience.

And yeah, that's pretty much what I'm getting at. Just because an elf is physically "adult" not much later than a human, doesn't mean he'll be socially really considered a real adult at the same time.

gdiddy
2010-09-19, 01:18 AM
Also, I wanted to through my hat in the ring on the whole bubbly fighter thing.

How many times have centogenarian dwarves been played as exactly what your describing? "Oy, hold me beer, I'm going to go teach that dragon a thing or two about manners! And don't spill it!"

Is it a trope of fantasy? Yes. Is it realistic? No.

It's played for humor and levity in an otherwise grim situation of killing things and taking their stuffTM.

I've personally played a high level fighter, that while incredibly brutal and good at hurting things, also had an incredible amount of naiveté. His lack of cunning in an otherwise grimdark setting became a big defining feature of the character. He couldn't understand why all these bad things were happening in the world, but he did his best with his natural abilities. I played it for laughs, occasionally, but it was a serious component to the character's psychology.

I think the problem is that there are not only stereotypes of female characters, but huge stereotypes of the way people play female characters.

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 01:34 AM
{{scrubbed}}


Bear all this in mind, when I ask the following question: Considering the oft-portrayed Elven arrogance, how can a completely capable Elf at the age of 50 be taken seriously?

They probably aren't. But then again elves generally know one another, so they aren't so much as 'not taken seriously' as having 'come to terms' with everyone around them.


Just because an elf is physically "adult" not much later than a human, doesn't mean he'll be socially really considered a real adult at the same time.

Yes, but that doesn't completely deny him from being emotionally mature at age 20, like a human.

Note also that humans are apprenticed at a stage when they aren't expected to be fully emotionally mature, whereas elves could arrive at this point at a time when they have fully discovered themselves (in a teenage sense) and are emotionally mature. This again, reflects on how easy it is to be an elf in a community of elves.


I've personally played a high level fighter, that while incredibly brutal and good at hurting things, also had an incredible amount of naiveté. His lack of cunning in an otherwise grimdark setting became a big defining feature of the character. He couldn't understand why all these bad things were happening in the world, but he did his best with his natural abilities. I played it for laughs, occasionally, but it was a serious component to the character's psychology.

Maybe his inner child was manifesting into a demon taking over?



I think the problem is that there are not only stereotypes of female characters, but huge stereotypes of the way people play female characters.

Well about as much of a stereotype as 'all beautiful blonds are bimbos', 'all slick businessmen are ambitious and evil', and 'all americans are stupid'. It's just the way society thinks right now. No use talking about it.

Serpentine
2010-09-19, 01:53 AM
Sorry, I'm not antagonizing (please don't infract me again mod).Saying it doesn't make it true.
Yes, but that doesn't completely deny him from being emotionally mature at age 20, like a human.I never said it did. To quote myself, yet again:
It's my understanding that elves are physically mature at 20 - that is, about the human equivalent of 16ish - but not considered emotionally mature (say, human 25ish) until 100+.I do think that an elf isn't as emotionally and psychologically mature as a human until at least a decade or several later, but what I'm actually talking about is cultural perceptions and expectations. In Australia, people are legally considered fit to vote, watch porn, drink and drive a car at the age of 18. However, few people under the age of 25 or so would be taken seriously - in politics, in the military, in society, in the media, everywhere - as "true" adults. What I am saying is that, in humans, "phsycially adult" and "socially adult" has a gap of about 5-10 years, but in elves, that gap is more like 80 years.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT BRAIN DEVELOPMENT, ONLY SOCIAL AND CULTURAL PERCEPTIONS OF DEVELOPMENT.
.
Note also that humans are apprenticed at a stage when they aren't expected to be fully emotionally mature, whereas elves could arrive at this point at a time when they have fully discovered themselves (in a teenage sense) and are emotionally mature. This again, reflects on how easy it is to be an elf in a community of elves.That is just flat-out incorrect, by the Races of the Wild material. Elves are "apprenticed", as you insist on calling it (and it's not, they explicitly and repeatedly use the word "fostered") from the age of 10 or thereabouts. Young elves are raised by other members of the community, not employed as skilless assistants and taught a trade.
If you insist on equating elf fostering with human apprenticeship, then the elves do so when they are much less mature, in every sense of the word, than humans.

Petrocorus
2010-09-19, 02:09 AM
In Australia, people are legally considered fit to vote, watch porn, drink and drive a car at the age of 18. However, few people under the age of 25 or so would be taken seriously - in politics, in the military, in society, in the media, everywhere - as "true" adults. What I am saying is that, in humans, "phsycially adult" and "socially adult" has a gap of about 5-10 years, but in elves, that gap is more like 80 years.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT BRAIN DEVELOPMENT, ONLY SOCIAL AND CULTURAL PERCEPTIONS OF DEVELOPMENT.


Is it possible that Elves are not considered mature before 100 yo because they are not considered mature as long as they are not as mature as a 100 yo human? The way elves look upon humans is a bit the same as the way we look upon young adult or old adolescent, no?

Serpentine
2010-09-19, 02:19 AM
Possibly. I think that's sort of a mix of social and biological factors, though, mostly in the other direction: elves do develop more slowly than humans, and they apply their expectations to humans. Thus, a human, no matter how old, will never be considered as wise and experienced and worldly as an equivalent elf, because they don't have the same number of years.

Coidzor
2010-09-19, 03:58 AM
Is it possible that Elves are not considered mature before 100 yo because they are not considered mature as long as they are not as mature as a 100 yo human? The way elves look upon humans is a bit the same as the way we look upon young adult or old adolescent, no?

Except humans mature from putting themselves into something. A trade, a passion, an ideal.

Elves... don't do any of that for the 80 years they're lollygagging around.

...They're sort of like slackers living in their parents basement, except their parents kicked 'em out as ten year olds, so they've been basement surfing throughout the community for 90 years...:smalleek:

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 04:05 AM
Saying it doesn't make it true.

So even if I didn't intend it I could still get infracted?

Sounds like the rules that be are easily exploitable. Just saying.


Young elves are raised by other members of the community, not employed as skilless assistants and taught a trade.

Doesn't matter what words you use. It's effectively the same thing. A young elf is skill-less until they're tutored by other community members.

Skills often lead to trades (and it can be any trade, it doesn't have to be practical or utilitarian or considered necessary; elves are typically free thinkers). I don't like to assume that all elves would live in socialist utopia states. That's just me though.


...They're sort of like slackers living in their parents basement, except their parents kicked 'em out as ten year olds, so they've been basement surfing throughout the community for 90 years...

Yep. It's a fun deal.


Possibly. I think that's sort of a mix of social and biological factors, though, mostly in the other direction: elves do develop more slowly than humans, and they apply their expectations to humans. Thus, a human, no matter how old, will never be considered as wise and experienced and worldly as an equivalent elf, because they don't have the same number of years.

True. Although some apt elves are still amazed at the human tendency to adapt and jump into things - at least that's how powerful humans generally behave (the weaker ones will typically be unwilling to learn new things; this is also the case in the real world).

Serpentine
2010-09-19, 04:19 AM
Doesn't matter what words you use. It's effectively the same thing. A young elf is skill-less until they're tutored by other community members.No, it isn't. My boyfriend lived with his grandmother and with his aunt and uncle for a while. I'm sure he learnt things from them, but he was not their apprentice. He was their foster-son.
In any case, I already addressed all that, and it has little or nothing to do with what I was saying, all of which you have ignored.

Coidzor
2010-09-19, 04:33 AM
Can we just agree that elves are silly and not the most edifying of female stereotypes?

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 07:29 PM
No, it isn't. My boyfriend lived with his grandmother and with his aunt and uncle for a while. I'm sure he learnt things from them, but he was not their apprentice. He was their foster-son.

Yeah but there was probably no actual agreement, whether or not official/unofficial, regarding that he was to be fostered in exchange for learning new things. It simply happened, maybe because he desired it or because that reflects upon the personality of his elder relatives.


In any case, I already addressed all that, and it has little or nothing to do with what I was saying, all of which you have ignored.

:smallsigh: I didn't ignore you. I just chose to address what I felt needed addressing. Just because I don't reply in the way you deem is socially acceptable to reply doesn't mean I ignored you.


Can we just agree that elves are silly and not the most edifying of female stereotypes?

Well they're most definitely effeminate or (at least) androgynous a lot of the time.

But elves can be made however you like in regards to setting - even if you want them to at least somewhat resemble the staple LotR elves.

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 07:49 PM
Where hero can basically have any armor or equipment he wants usually.

I gotta give credit to the fact that heros are usually (on a social level) bodacious and affluent individuals that try really darn hard at whatever they do. So a level 1 fighter may have earned much of his wealth (200 starting gold) from gambled duels against level 1 warriors or in bouts, ie. But it all depends on background of course.

Beyond level 1, they've obviously taken on much harder tasks that would earn them global fame in today's world (what with media and everything) where reputation back then was spread very slowly and by word of mouth usually - even in a city with newspaper however, word wouldn't get around very quickly since it requires certain people tasked with media to come upon the information and then report it.

Volos
2010-09-19, 08:42 PM
My least favorite female sterotypes in Tabletop RPGs are the ones that don't make any sense. I've had female gamers try to explain their character's backstory to me, and I keep giving them the strangest looks. I had one girl want to play this bard who was a better fighter (according to her RP not her stats) then the Barbarian of the group. She was saying that even though she had little to no muscle on her body, she could punch like a speeding truck. I think watching too much Anime has caused alot of these strange sterotypes. But then again, my male gamers want to be the most sought after *male appendage* in all the land with a Cha of 8 or so. I guess it goes both ways. I just rather have gamers with characters who are real people, not these... crazy concepts.

Knaight
2010-09-19, 09:23 PM
I had one girl want to play this bard who was a better fighter (according to her RP not her stats) then the Barbarian of the group. She was saying that even though she had little to no muscle on her body, she could punch like a speeding truck. I think watching too much Anime has caused alot of these strange sterotypes.

Training can help immensely with striking strength, so its not inconceivable that someone relatively small but trained would hit harder than someone who is just big. That said, mechanically the barbarian would be bigger, stronger, and better trained, so it doesn't quite work out.

As for the thread purpose, its stereotyped about women as characters in the game, not stereotypes employed by women in making characters, except for where these overlap.

Serpentine
2010-09-20, 12:39 AM
Yeah but there was probably no actual agreement, whether or not official/unofficial, regarding that he was to be fostered in exchange for learning new things. It simply happened, maybe because he desired it or because that reflects upon the personality of his elder relatives.Nor is there any "actual agreement" among the elves. And it didn't so much "simply happen" as because his parents couldn't look after him.
I'll just post the exact words from the book, shall I? Fostering that happens to involve learning - you know, like people do normally, especially in medieval times without central schooling:
Once a child is born, his or her parents usually raise the youngster for the first few years, and then foster him or her out to a succession of older relatives until he or she reaches maturity. This practice provides training for the child in a variety of areas and allows the parents to return to the pursuit of their own interests. It also encourages young elves to develop their own sense of self and a degree of personal independence.
...
Upon reaching the age of 20, a child is usually fostered out to an older relative, either in the same community or another. This relative is one who has the time and energy to teach the youngster an advanced craft. A child may be fostered with several relatives before finally coming of age, learning different skills and family lore from each. It’s not uncommon for elves to repeat this process of fostering and studying for the first hundred years of their lives. However, in particularly threatening times, the need for warriors may lead to elf youths taking on adult responsibilities almost as quickly as humans might.Which brings me to my primary - or only, really - point: that generally elves are not, culturally, considered truly adult and mature until about 100 years old.