Mistreatment of Women

[Talakeal]

Quick question, as a game master how do I present a realistic world where violence towards women doesn't occur regularly? I currently just gloss over it completely, but it seems awkward, sort of like the elephant in the room that no one mentions.

For example, when the players or other female NPCs are taken prisoner, why aren't they raped? You have a bunch of violent evil beings having a bunch of attractive young women as their prisoners, it seems like the natural course. But it just seems wrong.
If my character was raped by the DM I would leave the game in a hurry, and if I rescued the princess only to find that she had been sexually abused I would feel very uncomfortable. So it doesn't happen. But why doesn't it happen?

Likewise if the player's defeat a band of monstrous humanoids there will be plenty of non combatants left behind, most of them women and children. If the player's do nothing they will either die out in the harsh world or survive to breed another generation eager for revenge against the society that killed their fathers. But I can't imagine the heroes going around slaughtering helpless civilians or capturing slaves, nor do I think it would be fun to play a game where after every dungeon the players had to spend hours running around the land looking for charities which will take in hundreds of orc widows and orphans.

[Esser-Z]

For example, when the players or other female NPCs are taken prisoner, why aren't they raped?
Because the world isn't FATAL.

Alternatively, because the BBEG likes a properly disciplined army.

[Fax Celestis]

But why doesn't it happen?

Because this is a game and games are supposed to be fun. Rape, etc. is not fun (unless you're a sick sick freak) in any sense of the term.

[Zore]

Roleplaying games are at their core all fantasy or fiction and in much the same way you gloss over things that are boring/unimportant (like making waste or breathing) you will also gloss over things that make you not want to play the game (Disturbing things or things that jar with the mood and tone). It all comes down to the fact you play the game to have fun and pass time. If you or your group is uncomfortable with something you don't have to perfectly emulate reality. You don't in a lot of other ways anyways.

As a side note, you could just use a lot of other humanoid/monstrous races who, in your setting, have no sexual desire for members of other races. I doubt a human would rape a lizardfolk or a halfling an ogre.

[Talakeal]

Because the world isn't FATAL.

Alternatively, because the BBEG likes a properly disciplined army.

It doesn't have to be either or. In FATAL more than half of all men are part of a rape gang which wanders their own village finding women to rape. This is ridiculous.

But in some parts of Africa there are rape gangs, many of them government sanctioned. In every part of the world there are numerous rapists, it is estimated that over than 20% of women will be sexually abused at some point in their life.

When you are looking at bandit groups such as pirates or Vikings it is historically documented that they usually raped their captives. And these are human societies, not savage monster races who have a predisposition towards chaos and evil.

I suppose I could rule that non humans are simply not interested with sex outside their species, but then where do all the half orcs/ogres/giants/trolls/dragons etc come from? And there are still plenty of human villains.

[Fax Celestis]

It doesn't have to be either or. In FATAL more than half of all men are part of a rape gang which wanders their own village finding women to rape. This is ridiculous.

The game does not have to emulate reality. It's not a simulation, it's a comparative model. Just omit the parts that you, as a DM or a player, do not want to deal with/don't feel are appropriate/are not fun and call it a day. It is, at its fundament, a game, and games are supposed to be fun before they are anything else.

[Zore]

It doesn't have to be either or. In FATAL more than half of all men are part of a rape gang which wanders their own village finding women to rape. This is ridiculous.

But in some parts of Africa there are rape gangs, many of them government sanctioned. In every part of the world there are numerous rapists, it is estimated that over than 20% of women will be sexually abused at some point in their life.

When you are looking at bandit groups such as pirates or Vikings it is historically documented that they usually raped their captives. And these are human societies, not savage monster races who have a predisposition towards chaos and evil.

I suppose I could rule that non humans are simply not interested with sex outside their species, but then where do all the half orcs/ogres/giants/trolls/dragons etc come from? And there are still plenty of human villains.

In your cosmology make a god/dess of sex who punishes those who rape by sending archons after them. Or have a giant magical artefact that puts a geas on everybody not to rape. Work it into the story or setting somehow.

[JonestheSpy]

Likewise if the player's defeat a band of monstrous humanoids there will be plenty of non combatants left behind, most of them women and children. If the player's do nothing they will either die out in the harsh world or survive to breed another generation eager for revenge against the society that killed their fathers. But I can't imagine the heroes going around slaughtering helpless civilians or capturing slaves, nor do I think it would be fun to play a game where after every dungeon the players had to spend hours running around the land looking for charities which will take in hundreds of orc widows and orphans.

Well, here we have the difference between "heroic fantasy" and "real life". When humans kill humans, you've got to deal with questions like the above. In a fantasy, you're fighting Evil (usually), personified by whatever monsters the DM comes up with - I don't think there's any need to put widows and orphans in the picture, they're fine offstage and out of the moral playing field.

Unless you're doing a deconstruction like OotS or Goblins, in which case you're dealing with real life morality again, instead of fantasy.

(BTW, when I talk about "fantasy morality", I don't mean "Lazy-minded/doesn't-think-about-unpleasant-topics", I mean the morality of Archetype, Dream, and the Unconscious, where Evil exists in a way that just doesn't happen in the waking world and symbolizes the uglier parts of our own souls, not another human that happens to wear the uniform of the opposing team.)

[Fax Celestis]

In your cosmology make a god/dess of sex who punishes those who rape by sending archons after them. Or have a giant magical artefact that puts a geas on everybody not to rape. Work it into the story or setting somehow.

For an extreme example of this, The Isle of Molia has a death penalty for any sort of violent crime, magically supported. Read the section for Konani Mele.

[Innis Cabal]

The game does not have to emulate reality. It's not a simulation, it's a comparative model. Just omit the parts that you, as a DM or a player, do not want to deal with/don't feel are appropriate/are not fun and call it a day. It is, at its fundament, a game, and games are supposed to be fun before they are anything else.

Some people think realism is fun. Everyone plays games for different reasons and simply calling people who want to look at how the world would -really- look within the context of it's own reality "Sick" isn't the most broad minded thing ever. Some people find the candy floss and unicorn kisses style of fantasy boring (I sure know I do). Playing in a game where rape happens does not mean you condone it.

[Urpriest]

Also, why are these people being captured in the first place? While many historical societies raped female prisoners, they generally did so when they were of the "future slaves" or "kill the men and rape the women and children" variety. If PCs are captured then they'll generally be captured for a reason that's not one of the above, and competent soldiers (BAB +1 and up) aren't going to mix business with pleasure.

[Hallavast]

Because this is a game and games are supposed to be fun. Rape, etc. is not fun (unless you're a sick sick freak) in any sense of the term.

George Carlin would dissagree with you. And although he just may be a sick sick freak... he'd be welcome at my gaming table any day (even as a zombie. that would rock).

[Fax Celestis]

Some people think realism is fun. Everyone plays games for different reasons and simply calling people who want to look at how the world would -really- look within the context of it's own reality "Sick" isn't the most broad minded thing ever. Some people find the candy floss and unicorn kisses style of fantasy boring (I sure know I do). Playing in a game where rape happens does not mean you condone it.

The OP made it very clear he is uncomfortable with the subject in the game. There is no reason, therefore, for him to include it.

George Carlin would dissagree with you. And although he just may be a sick sick freak... he'd be welcome at my gaming table any day (even as a zombie. that would rock).

George Carlin was a great man, indeed. But see what I said before.

[Zore]

Some people think realism is fun. Everyone plays games for different reasons and simply calling people who want to look at how the world would -really- look within the context of it's own reality "Sick" isn't the most broad minded thing ever. Some people find the candy floss and unicorn kisses style of fantasy boring (I sure know I do). Playing in a game where rape happens does not mean you condone it.

True, but the OP specifically said they and their game would be made very uncomfortable with rape or mentions thereof. And as I said, its entirely possible to change the rules of a setting you make up which can make it more fascinating than simply a retread of reality.

[ericgrau]

Options:

Hoomens are gross.
Monster personalities aren't flat. They aren't evil b/c they're from the society of evil evilness and need their bad deed for the day. They kill to prevent unnecessary trouble, and only capture people because they want to hold them for ransom or prisoner trade or etc. Rape is then bad for business.
Not everyone mistreats women. It'll be an odd coincidence the 9th time it happens (barring the above two events), but if women are only captured once or twice people shouldn't be wondering "Wait, wait, why wasn't she raped." Then you just move on.

[Hallavast]

Also, why are these people being captured in the first place? While many historical societies raped female prisoners, they generally did so when they were of the "future slaves" or "kill the men and rape the women and children" variety. If PCs are captured then they'll generally be captured for a reason that's not one of the above, and competent soldiers (BAB +1 and up) aren't going to mix business with pleasure.

Guh?

Listen. Sometimes PCs make mistakes and get captured by goblins. And by RAW, goblins are horny. I'm not sure why only the female PCs would be raped, though... Also. Competence doesn't equate to professionalism and vice versa. In any field. Best carpenter I've ever met in my life was (and is to this day) a stinkin drunk, for example.

[Esser-Z]

One of my female PCs once got capture by slaves, and was going to be sold into a guy's harem. So she would've been raped, but not by the captors--would devalue the merchandise. Plus, well, escaped before then.

[Hallavast]

The OP made it very clear he is uncomfortable with the subject in the game. There is no reason, therefore, for him to include it.


George Carlin was a great man, indeed. But see what I said before.

Ok then. I very much doubt the OP would be comfortable with maiming and murder, but why are those almost universally acceptable content in RPGs? I'll tell you why. It's because when you play the game you distance yourself from the reality of what your content really means. If you could do it for murder, then it follows logically that you'd do it with sexual violence as well.

[Fax Celestis]

Ok then. I very much doubt the OP would be comfortable with maiming and murder, but why are those almost universally acceptable content in RPGs? I'll tell you why. It's because when you play the game you distance yourself from the reality of what your content really means. If you could do it for murder, then it follows logically that you'd do it with sexual violence as well.

Some people can: more power to them.

Some people, myself included1, find one acceptable in the context of a game but not the other. I would presume that the OP is of the same mind as I am.

1at least not in a game that specifically doesn't carry a disclaimer about such beforehand. A game that specifically calls out that it may include sexual situations, including possibly situations of sexual violence, is acceptable in my book. But I, frankly, need to be aware beforehand that it is a possibility.

[lsfreak]

For the same reason that games don't include complicated rules for which diseases you get when your PC doesn't maintain a well-balanced diet. It generally ruins any sense of fun that game has. Games are played for their entertainment value, which may happen to include some realism, but dietary intake and women-as-property almost always goes too far (for obviously different reasons).

[Dirty n Evil]

Here's my take -

What's so great about realism? Because in many ways, the world is a horrible, horrible place. There are far too many sick, twisted sociopaths out there, and not enough justice and fairness. Heroes are so rare as to be non-existent. It's lead to a society of jaded, bitter, cynical people who jealously scramble to hold on to what's theirs.

I play RPG's as escapism from this. A world where not only are there true heroes, but where I can be one of them.

If you let realism invade too much into your RPG's, you threaten to make a game as dark as our life can be. Because this means as bright as the heroes try to be, you'll find villains just as dark. Individuals who rape, maim, blind, castrate, humilate, and laugh while they do it. Did that idea make you cringe? Well, that's a good reaction to have... the idea of an individual that dark is supposed to be disturbing if you have any empathy for other living beings.

You're telling a story. Sometimes, the story can have dark overtones... but be aware that if there is such a dark moment presented in this story that makes such an impression the characters never forget its introduction, it's probably too dark.

Of course, this is just my take - I know that there are people out there who enjoy a bit more darkness in their storytelling than I. But gauge what your party is comfortable enough with while still providing an overall sense of entertainment and enjoyment through the RPing experience, and I say go with that.

[Debihuman]

Depends on what the evil doers want.

Alternatives to rape:

Think Stockholm Syndrome where the captors seduce the women into joining them; or they want to sell the women to high bidders (and a bruised or molested woman carries a lower price). Maybe the captors have wives to whom they are [gasp] actually faithful, or they want women who are completely submissive unlike a group of female adventurers. They just have better women already who cater to them already and the captives aren't as attractive as they think they are. Perhaps they are voyeurs and just like to watch women being tied up and held captive.

Debby

[Esser-Z]

Or perhaps the soldiers are just soldiers, and not necessarily themselves utterly evil. Punch Clock Villain and such.

[arguskos]

If you let realism invade too much into your RPG's, you threaten to make a game as dark as our life can be. Because this means as bright as the heroes try to be, you'll find villains just as dark. Individuals who rape, maim, blind, castrate, humilate, and laugh while they do it. Did that idea make you cringe? Well, that's a good reaction to have... the idea of an individual that dark is supposed to be disturbing if you have any empathy for other living beings.

That idea? Doesn't make me cringe at all. It makes me want to strive to be so bright, be such a great hero, that I can dispel that darkness and throw the villain down. I want to prevail, to defeat his plans, and to show the darkness that the light is still strong, and that we'll strike down that evil wherever it may hide. That's just me though. *shrugs*

[Zore]

Ok then. I very much doubt the OP would be comfortable with maiming and murder, but why are those almost universally acceptable content in RPGs? I'll tell you why. It's because when you play the game you distance yourself from the reality of what your content really means. If you could do it for murder, then it follows logically that you'd do it with sexual violence as well.

Some things about humanity are completely irrational. In many ways, culturally, we have become desensitized to violence. Violence and murder are also easier to abstract out, comparatively few people's lives have been touched by murder vs. those who have been touched by sexual violence. Certain people have difficulty getting over things that are close to them. I don't know many people who play these games after murder of someone close to them, many times because it personalizes what was previously a distant problem.

[Mystic Muse]

Because this is a game and games are supposed to be fun. Rape, etc. is not fun (unless you're a sick sick freak) in any sense of the term.

Agreed. If it doesn't make you or your players comfortable then don't do it. For example, messing with the afterlife and people's souls makes me uncomfortable so I don't allow any soul affecting magic or anything that prevents people from going to the afterlife in my game. My players can't cast spells anyway but I prefer to get these things out of the way before they become a problem.

Rape would make everybody at my table uncomfortable so I avoid bringing it up.

If something makes you uncomfortable, feel free to change it or leave the game.

[Fax Celestis]

That idea? Doesn't make me cringe at all. It makes me want to strive to be so bright, be such a great hero, that I can dispel that darkness and throw the villain down. I want to prevail, to defeat his plans, and to show the darkness that the light is still strong, and that we'll strike down that evil wherever it may hide. That's just me though. *shrugs*

Still (and by your own admission), it is a situation that many people would not be comfortable with. As such, if you're going to include such things in your game, you should include a disclaimer beforehand and clear it with all players involved. Otherwise, it leads to people abandoning your game because they're suddenly uncomfortable with the subject material.

[arguskos]

Still (and by your own admission), it is a situation that many people would not be comfortable with. As such, if you're going to include such things in your game, you should include a disclaimer beforehand and clear it with all players involved. Otherwise, it leads to people abandoning your game because they're suddenly uncomfortable with the subject material.
Waitwhat? I think you misquoted there, Fax, cause my post said absolutely nothing about that situation being uncomfortable. :smallconfused: Might wanna check that. :smallwink:

[Zaydos]

If it bothers your group then don't have it happen. IT IS A GAME. If you're in a group that doesn't enjoy it, then it just doesn't happen. Dragon Magazine Issue #300 with it's discussion of Vile games said it had 4 types of games. Simple (Light?) which was the light hearted, beer and pretzels style of game in which it didn't happen except as a back story for characters (which was true of my own games). Standard had it "maybe happen to NPCs when appropriate but not gone into detail" with an example of captives rescued from orcs including some pregnant with half-orcs. It was still not something discussed or really done more than glossed over. My games at the time mainly fell into Standard. Dark was "it happens, just not to the PCs (though it might be threatened)". Vile was "The PCs do it, but you still don't do it to the PCs because it's not fun".

Personally I wouldn't say it takes a sicko to include it in their games. It's realism, plain and simple. I would talk to my players and make sure they are okay with it first, though, because it can be quite disturbing to include.

[Khatoblepas]

I always thought villains were supposed to stroke the women's faces and say "Oh, my pretty, you shall be my bride!" and other such creepy things, and they save it all up for until the heroes arrive to stop them from mistreating women. You can imply what they're GOING to do without actually doing it, and the villain will seem much more sinister than if he's caught with his britches down.

Imply and suggest, don't do. Your basic mook isn't going to be going around raping ar'rebody down here. Orcs/Goblins will have honour amongst thieves and barbarians, your average bandit is in it for the money. The Visier likes power and not much else. Evil has to have standards, you know. It's what seperates men from animals.

And you're supposed to sacrifice virgins, you doofus. How are we going to summon the elder god with damaged goods? Idiot!

[Esser-Z]

And violence is much more easily fixed with spells.

[Ravens_cry]

Guh?

Listen. Sometimes PCs make mistakes and get captured by goblins. And by RAW, goblins are horny. I'm not sure why only the female PCs would be raped, though... Also. Competence doesn't equate to professionalism and vice versa. In any field. Best carpenter I've ever met in my life was (and is to this day) a stinkin drunk, for example.

Looked up Goblins in the SRD. No mention of any rampant sexual appetites.
I don't think RAW means what you think it does. Also, even if they are would-fornicate-a-goat horny, average humans are stronger then the average goblin. Plus, goblins are small, so a further -4 on grapple checks. There is, thank gods, no official rules for rape in 3.5, but if I had to hazard a guess, grapple checks would be involved. So all in all, average human is NOT going to be raped by an average goblin. In fact, with no magic items, the strongest possible goblin, 16 strength, is STILL at a disadvantage.

[Eldan]

Here's my take -

What's so great about realism? Because in many ways, the world is a horrible, horrible place. There are far too many sick, twisted sociopaths out there, and not enough justice and fairness. Heroes are so rare as to be non-existent. It's lead to a society of jaded, bitter, cynical people who jealously scramble to hold on to what's theirs.

The problem I faced was this: our group consisted of an ecology student (me), a history student (friend), a literature student (other friend) and a physics student (often DM). All very pedantic about their fields, sometimes.
The physicist loved thinking about how magic interacted with the established rules of physics. Where does the energy go? Where does it come from?
I love thinking about relations between creatures. How did fire breathing come into being? How does it change a creature's diet? What would it's logical predators be, if it was immune to blunt force and piercing weapons, but not acid?
The history and lit student would look at a world and ask why it was like this. Could evil be prevented if we tried to change society in a certain way? Can orcs be reformed? What are historical reasons for discrimination against one but not the other group? Add to that someone thinking of human behaviour in terms of game theory (me) and you get a game where people instantly suspect a trap if certain things are glossed over.

It wasn't even on purpose. Our game didn't include sex or sexual violence. We would all have been too uncomfortable with that. Our games were often even incredibly silly and had plenty of flat characters. But we would seamlessly go into taking about where the hell these arctic orcs even got their food, and why their currency system wasn't hyperinflated by the neighbouring goblins.

I guess it comes with the job. We couldn't manage pure escapism well.

[Oslecamo]

-In D&D rapists are indeed assured to take a trip to the Abyss or the 9 Hells when they die where they'll be the plaything of fiends. And unlike adventurers who murder and pillage for profit, rapists can't argue that their actions were for some greater good.
-In D&D the woman you rape may be an adventurer who'll break half your bones if she gets close enough, or will enact terrible revenge as soon as possible. Even if she dies, she may be ressurected or return as some kind of vengefull undead.
-Even worst, it may be a disguised dragon. Is it really worth the risk?

[Fax Celestis]

-In D&D rapists are indeed assured to take a trip to the Abyss or the 9 Hells when they die where they'll be the plaything of fiends. And unlike adventurers who murder and pillage for profit, rapists can't argue that their actions were for some greater good.

This is an excellent point. In the D&D world, Hell is real, and a place you can visit with the kids on a field trip to scare the living bajeezus out of them.

[Eldan]

That, I'd think, depends much on the world.
If your average bandit is a warrior 2 who has heard that a dragon exists in the savage northlands, has seen a chained ogre on the country fair once and has last talked to a priest who was an actual cleric three years ago, he probably won't be all that convinced the abyss really exists.
If the local village priest can summon up imps to scare his followers? That changes a lot.l

[Uncertainty]

-Even worst, it may be a disguised dragon. Is it really worth the risk?

I remember reading about a character on these forums whose backstory involved a human form black dragon being raped in an antimagic field. I don't think it ended well...

[Esser-Z]

I remember reading about a character on these forums whose backstory involved a human form black dragon being raped in an antimagic field. I don't think it ended well...
How does antimagic interact with the dragon alternate form feature? Are they stuck in that form? Or do they revert to dragonform?

[RebelRogue]

-In D&D rapists are indeed assured to take a trip to the Abyss or the 9 Hells when they die where they'll be the plaything of fiends. And unlike adventurers who murder and pillage for profit, rapists can't argue that their actions were for some greater good.
But the people we're talking about are going there anyway! If anything, this would encourage them to do hideous things (I'm giving up my Immortal soul here, so I might as well go nuts). Actually, according to FCII, most mortals do not realize where they end up anyway...

Nah, it should be avoided because most people are uncomfortable with it. The game is heavy on violence, but it's idealized violence condensed into hit point loss. A lot of players would probably be uncomfortable with over graphic descriptions of violence too. If everybody agrees, fine, but otherwise don't.

[Cubey]

I'm just here to point out - by making it that in your game, the general opponent is never interested in rape for one reason or another is NOT unrealistic or historically inaccurate. Unless you play in an actual historical setting, of course. Because you're not playing in Europe, Anno Domini 1200, but in Eberron, Forgotten Realms, or Clicheland. Assuming "people didn't act like that back then" is faulty, because there is no back then.

Also, raping the player characters is never a good idea. Even if they make it clear that they're okay with it, the chances are - it will be handled poorly anyway. Fortunately, it's not very realistic to assume most enemies would be interested in raping a player character, even if female, at all. PCs are either too dangerous or too important. If not both.

[Uncertainty]

How does antimagic interact with the dragon alternate form feature? Are they stuck in that form? Or do they revert to dragonform?

I think the argument in that thread had to do with the dragon entry mentioning both their human and dragon forms being 'natural forms' - so magic was the catalyst for the transformation, but not necessary for them to retain whatever form they were in.

I honestly don't know much about the subject, however.

[Esser-Z]

I think the argument in that thread had to do with the dragon entry mentioning both their human and dragon forms being 'natural forms' - so magic was the catalyst for the transformation, but not necessary for them to retain whatever form they were in.

I honestly don't know much about the subject, however.

Also black dragons seem to not get alternate form. :smalltongue:

[Uncertainty]

Also black dragons seem to not get alternate form. :smalltongue:

Good point.

Still, I guess the GM let it slide for the sake of the player's backstory. I don't think that rule of cool is the proper term considering the subject matter, but it is does seem to be a case of story being put ahead of RAW.

Edit:
I wanna find that thread now...
Edit2:
Here we are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8672615#post8672615)

[Oslecamo]

But the people we're talking about are going there anyway! If anything, this would encourage them to do hideous things (I'm giving up my Immortal soul here, so I might as well go nuts).

On the contrary, if you're say an orc pillager you may end up going to Grumush for your slaughters, serving his personal armies as prove of your worth, but if you also rape women along the way you'll displease him and he'll let the fiends take your soul.

[Hallavast]

Because I don't want to have to discuss rape with my fellow players. I don't want to have others overhear me talking about rape. Violence is much more socially acceptable to discuss and thus much more socially acceptable to have in a game.

So, no, your argument that we should just grow up and deal is invalid.

Your argument that people are illogical is not valid. Lack of logic does not excuse itself in a rational discussion. In fact, all you're saying in answer to the question of "why does it make us feel bad?" is "it makes us feel bad so we don't talk about it". Rather infuriating, really.



Looked up Goblins in the SRD. No mention of any rampant sexual appetites. Compare goblins to rabbits and then answer the question as to why there are so many of both.



I don't think RAW means what you think it does. Also, even if they are would-fornicate-a-goat horny, average humans are stronger then the average goblin. Magic and other situations provide the leverage necessary to overcome physical strength. Grappling need not be involved at all. Let's not discuss details on that.


So all in all, average human is NOT going to be raped by an average goblin. In fact, with no magic items, the strongest possible goblin, 16 strength, is STILL at a disadvantage.
Math will do you no good in this problem. The strongest possible goblin is loads stronger than the average human. PCs are rarely in situations considered normal by NPCs. You are arguing statistical probability in a much larger target group, but the real issue is specifics. Statistics are irrelavent so long as it is both physically possible and narratively plausible. I've shown both.

Rape (like everything else you could think of) is on the table in D&D. If you don't want it, then of course you shouldn't deal with it. The question, however, is WHY you don't want it, and more specifically, I'd like to assert that you are NOT a sick person for portraying rape in D&D. As (what should be) my only evidence, I merely present the comparison of D&D to another form of storytelling: novels. To say rape is abhorrent (and it is) and therefore inappropriate in a game, then it should follow that it is likewise so in a book. Therefore if you have enjoyed any book you either read or wrote that even implied that rape exists, you are a "sick, sick freak".

Your irrational argument is irrational.

[Tetrasodium]

It's easy... "some of the prisoners have torn and ripped clothing, others abused in various unpleasant ways"

[Khatoblepas]

Rape (like everything else you could think of) is on the table in D&D. If you don't want it, then of course you shouldn't deal with it. The question, however, is WHY you don't want it, and more specifically, I'd like to assert that you are NOT a sick person for portraying rape in D&D. As (what should be) my only evidence, I merely present the comparison of D&D to another form of storytelling: novels. To say rape is abhorrent (and it is) and therefore inappropriate in a game, then it should follow that it is likewise so in a book. Therefore if you have enjoyed any book you either read or wrote that even implied that rape exists, you are a "sick, sick freak".

But it adds NOTHING to the game. Nothing. There are a million other fates you could threaten the NPCs and players with. Think about all the fantasy novels you've read. What does adding rape add in total? Nothing. I remember an issue of Superman where the whole plot was about mind control and rape. A million other problems could arise and they'd all be preferable. There have been entire essays about how rape adds nothing and takes away everything. It's something you don't do lightly, in all circumstances. Goblins the LEAST of them.

The goblins could easily tie up people and cook them over a fire. Steal all their belongings and stuff. Oh, no, you can't have something this heavy for goblins. Goblins are for killing wholesale as mooks, in mechanics terms.

You save rape for the most evil of evil people. They don't even have to do it, at all. What they do can be symbolic. Vampires rape the innocent and turn them into slaves/slavering monsters by drinking of their blood. Wights rape by draining the very soul out of you at a mere touch. Illithids mindrape you and cause you to become one of them.

But the very threat of "forced marriage" by a supremely evil lord against a young, innocent lady... must be stopped at all costs. Rape is an implied conclusion if you don't stop it. You don't need to say it, it's just one of those things that you need to stop at all costs.

In a world where there is supernatural soul raping going on, we don't need sexual rape. It's like adding child abuse and domestic violence to World of Darkness: Innocents. There's already allegories going on. We don't need to be direct. Have some freaking tact if you're going to include it.

[Uncertainty]

<Snip>

Your irrational argument is irrational.

No offense or anything, but others have already provided more reasonable explanations as to why rape is a sensitive issue in tabletop games:


Some things about humanity are completely irrational. In many ways, culturally, we have become desensitized to violence. Violence and murder are also easier to abstract out, comparatively few people's lives have been touched by murder vs. those who have been touched by sexual violence. Certain people have difficulty getting over things that are close to them. I don't know many people who play these games after murder of someone close to them, many times because it personalizes what was previously a distant problem.


Personally, I believe that if something makes people uncomfortable, they should not be required to explain why; or to justify themselves. If you want a more realistic game, fine - I can certainly see the appeal of it. Similarly, I can see why many people might be upset by having stuff like this included in their 'lighter' games. It's all a matter of preference, really.

[jmbrown]

There's a difference between sensationalism and mature themes. The most impactful books and movies have terrible, horrible things happening in them but they're not described in detail. We don't need to know about how the act was commited or with what, just drop context clues that it's happening and it's very real.

"You rescue the princess from the dark lord's tower. Her clothing is torn, her arms and face bruised, and she quivers in her chains. She looks up with forlorn eyes that plead "Help me."

The imagination is more powerful than any description. The greatest writers and artists in history understand this. If you hint at something existing, the audience will take it upon themselves to finish the picture for you.

[Fax Celestis]

Rape (like everything else you could think of) is on the table in D&D. If you don't want it, then of course you shouldn't deal with it. The question, however, is WHY you don't want it, and more specifically, I'd like to assert that you are NOT a sick person for portraying rape in D&D. As (what should be) my only evidence, I merely present the comparison of D&D to another form of storytelling: novels. To say rape is abhorrent (and it is) and therefore inappropriate in a game, then it should follow that it is likewise so in a book. Therefore if you have enjoyed any book you either read or wrote that even implied that rape exists, you are a "sick, sick freak".

I did not say including it in a game made you a sick freak. I said enjoying it made you one. If it is included in the game as a means of making the villain more villainous, and therefore have the PCs want to kill him that much more, then by all means, go for it: but ensure that the players are comfortable with that topic being in the game, because for some people the mere concept is despicable enough for them to stand and walk from the table--after all, they are there to have fun, and introducing that sort of content without forewarning is enough of a paradigm shift to throw anyone off their groove.

[Uncertainty]

I did not say including it in a game made you a sick freak. I said enjoying it made you one. If it is included in the game as a means of making the villain more villainous, and therefore have the PCs want to kill him that much more, then by all means, go for it...

To be fair, enjoyment is a funny thing in this regard. Stories that have powerful emotional effects on the audience can often be very enjoyable - even if those effects are to make the audiance sad or upset in some way. For a literary example, think the end of the last Harry Potter book.

Not that I am endorsing Rape as Drama (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama) or anything (*shudder*), I'm just trying to point out that enjoyment does not necessarily equal smiles and giggles.


And for the record, I agree with you that it's probably best to warn the players ahead of time before you pull something like this.

[Thajocoth]

It doesn't happen because the players would not enjoy it. It's simply not what's fun.

Even if someone in the party thinks that rape would be fun to roleplay... (They don't necessarily have to be a sick, twisted individual... They could simply be into more horroresque "realism"...) The exchange would happen between the DM and the Player, who I assume are good enough friends that it would STILL be too awkward in most cases.

-----

In an online game, I could go along with it if it came up. Offline, I know I just can't.

[Karoht]

Quick question, as a game master how do I present a realistic world where violence towards women doesn't occur regularly? I currently just gloss over it completely, but it seems awkward, sort of like the elephant in the room that no one mentions.

For example, when the players or other female NPCs are taken prisoner, why aren't they raped? You have a bunch of violent evil beings having a bunch of attractive young women as their prisoners, it seems like the natural course. But it just seems wrong.
If my character was raped by the DM I would leave the game in a hurry, and if I rescued the princess only to find that she had been sexually abused I would feel very uncomfortable. So it doesn't happen. But why doesn't it happen?

Likewise if the player's defeat a band of monstrous humanoids there will be plenty of non combatants left behind, most of them women and children. If the player's do nothing they will either die out in the harsh world or survive to breed another generation eager for revenge against the society that killed their fathers. But I can't imagine the heroes going around slaughtering helpless civilians or capturing slaves, nor do I think it would be fun to play a game where after every dungeon the players had to spend hours running around the land looking for charities which will take in hundreds of orc widows and orphans.

Before I start, I want to state that I am NOT in ANY way shape or form advocating such treatment of female PC's or NPC's.

However, you can use such treatment as part of the immersion.
Example:
Female PC is in a jail cell. One of the guards enters the cell. He's clearly got 'that look' in his eye.
PC can triumph over the guard, maybe even escape (or beat him so bad the other guards and prisoners don't bother to try). However, if I were DM of such a campaign, I'd make sure the guard was of extremely low level in comparison to the PC, and there would be something (like a stool) for the PC to use against the guard. For realism sake, I'd emphasize that this is a rookie guard, and I'd even have another more senior guard watching the situation even strongly suggest not doing this, or threaten to go to his superiors. Or switch the age on the two.
Besides, the lady PC beating the crap out of the male guard also follows rule of cool, which is one of the unwritten rules of some role-playing games.
And if she somehow loses the scrap, the not such a jerkwad guard can always put a stop to it. Or maybe the commanding officer comes along and disciplines them both.

Example:
Kidnapped Princess.
The heroes rescuing the princess can just get there in the nick of time to prevent any wrong doing. Helps with the heroic feeling too, and helps emphasize the bad guy is bad.

Example:
Razed village.
Yes, there will be non-combatants. Women and children. However, non-combatants also means the elderly or more senior villagers like the wise old shaman in the hut down the road, or the village leader. Non-combatants also means the people who weren't in armor swinging weapons. It can be a bunch of farmers, hunter/gatherers, craftsmen, fishermen, etc. They won't be entirely left without livelyhoods. And the women aren't completly without means to provide for their children. THAT notion is silly, especially when one considers that women in medieval times (and by extention, medieval fantasy times), had to know how to cook pretty much anything that was edible, how to raise crops, how to harvest and store them properly, how to manage those stores through the winter. How to make candles (typically from animal fat) how to make clothing, cure hides, preserve meat, etc. So to say they are helpless or without means to provide for themselves is not entirely accurate.
Moreover, did the town even LIKE these guys? Maybe the villagers wanted nothing to do with violence. Then again, maybe you found a village filled with nothing but horrible people, women and children included, who wanted to purge their enemies from the land by sword and fire if need be. Who knows?
So yes, the village just had it's warriors killed (not all of them have to be dead either I might add), and you are left with wounded and non-coms.
Is there a Paladin in the party? One might implore the Paladin or Cleric for some charity. Perhaps some NPC's from the guy who hired you to wipe these guys out might show up to escort the non-coms and prisoners somewhere safer. Heck, they might offer to pay the party to escort them.

Yes, it is likely that the world of the fantasy RPG is filled with horrible things. But as far as your party is concerned, there are ways the DM can address these issues without turning them automatically horrible. Maybe the enemy army rapes and pillages as it goes, but isn't that why your heroes are involved in the first place?

Just some thoughts. Again, not advocating violence or mistreatment of women in any way, shape, or form, in gaming. I'm just saying that it doesn't have to be out of sight out of mind either.

[Eldan]

Think, however, of one of the main reasons the average Fantasy Dark Age village would have warriors:
Because other villagers have them. You kill all the warriors of goblin village A. Sure, they probably won't starve. But what now? Troglodyte village B is only five miles to the west and Orc Village C isn't much farther away, and they'll hear about this. Their options are abandoning the village and moving elsewhere as refugees, or getting raided by everyone around them while defending themselves with farming implements and, as you said, the elderly, young and non-trained.

[Thajocoth]

I just remembered something. A common reason for kidnapping someone, especially a female victim, is to use them for a ritual sacrifice. A virgin would have more blood... Which is why virgins tend to be preferred for sacrifices. So ritual-based villians should outright be against prisoner rape.

[Caewil]

Depends on whether your players can handle mature themes or not. I usually try to describe the horror and brutality of war quite a bit, and rape is a part of it though I have that implied rather than described.

That said, it isn't as easy to dominate women in D&D since the IRL advantages of men over women are increased average strength; D&D treats both equally. Add to that most classes aren't dependent on strength and the existence of magic... I'd say that D&D worlds are closer to the modern one than the Dark Ages. There are rapists, but nowhere near as common as they would have been in medieval society.

Besides, you don't have D&D kings have people drawn and quartered, do you?

[JonestheSpy]

Wow, rarely have I felt my point to be so utterly ignored in a thread.

[Eldan]

Of course not. Torture magic is much more inventive. And you save on horses.

[Snake-Aes]

Long story short: Bad things that aren't well-seen by society are avoided in-game because it's gross and it leads to angry moms. No reason is ever given because those would also lead to angry moms.

If you want to play with that type of stuff, you are entitled to it, and anyone that tries to talk you down is wasting their (probably not) valuable time with demagoguery.

[Thajocoth]

...the IRL advantages of men over women are increased average strength...

Actually, that's only upper body strength. Women generally have better lower body strength and flexibility, assuming the same level of physical activity.

[Fiery Diamond]

That idea? Doesn't make me cringe at all. It makes me want to strive to be so bright, be such a great hero, that I can dispel that darkness and throw the villain down. I want to prevail, to defeat his plans, and to show the darkness that the light is still strong, and that we'll strike down that evil wherever it may hide. That's just me though. *shrugs*


You know what that idea does to me? It makes me want to go on a murder rampage where I brutally torture people who commit such vile acts, and then commit suicide afterward for having been as bad as them.


Yeah, I don't like thinking about those topics.


And I definitely wouldn't want them in my games.

[Zaydos]

Actually, that's only upper body strength. Women generally have better lower body strength and flexibility.

Flexibility yes; lower body strength questionable. Men can typically do more weight with squats and leg press, also men have the higher record for sprinting. Partially because men tend to be heavier and partially because testosterone (present in both genders but more abundant in males) is also a muscle building hormone.

[Person_Man]

I'd just like to echo the sentiment of Fax and others. To illustrate, here is one of the problems every role player will fall into at some point early in his or her gaming experiences:

Player: I act like a horrible jerk.

DM: Are you sure you want to act like a horrible jerk. The other players won't like you when you're a jerk. It really doesn't further the plot in any way to be a jerk. And it's not fun for anyone when you're a jerk.

Player: Well, that's what my character would do.

The correct response to this is, PLAY A DIFFERENT CHARACTER. The same thing applies to DMs. Don't be a jerk. Don't do things that are "realistic" for your character or your game if it's clearly out of bounds. If you need someone to explain to you what common decency is, then you're clearly just being contrarian for the point of being contrarian. And that's fine in literature or art. But for a game that's played by 12 year old kids, including my cousin and me 20 years ago, it's just something you don't do.

[Caewil]

As I said, it's okay if you play with adults and explain to them beforehand that you're going to be dealing with such themes.

If not, delete all of the D&D lore because if goblins and orcs and all the monstrous races do build villages and live and work just like the other races, most of what adventurers do in D&D is nothing short of badly justified racial/religious genocide.

If you want to escape the morality of their deeds, make monsters like the Darkspawn in Dragon Age. They don't have morals or lives or anything beyond slaughter. JonestheSpy, the lore of ordinary D&D tries to make D&D realistic. It is not a realm of dreams where monsters are a force of nature. That slot is reserved for demons and extraplanar creatures ATM.

EDIT: Anyone read the memoirs of people who fought in WW1? How they started out all idealistic and were fired up to be fighting for their country and then were sent to the trenches... I try to reflect that feeling in my games because as humans, the greatest evils are within ourselves.

[Ravens_cry]

@Hallavast:
I hate to get into statting out rape rules, but I fail to see how an attempted rape could be represented by anything but some form grapple check. I admit I know little of rape, but how can an act in which the other party is being held against their will be anything but? Unless your involving magic, but that would need a lot, or higher level, of magic users, more then is typical in how most Goblin warbands or raiders. Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.
Also, Goblins are only fast breeders by humanoid standards. Humanoids, including humans, are very slow breeders by most animals standards. The game doesn't even go into what makes them fast breeders by that low standard. Much more common multiple births are an equally viable means of expressing that, without Goblins being "always horny". In fact, in many animals the woman folk only go into heat at certain times and the rest of the time both sexes are pretty much asexual. This, with multiple births or litters, could be how Goblins breed without making them serial rapists.
Finally, I really don't want this in my game. At most, players will hear tales from refugees of war. No more.
It may seem odd, but those are my feelings.
Thank you.

[Cubey]

If not, delete all of the D&D lore because if goblins and orcs and all the monstrous races do build villages and live and work just like the other races, most of what adventurers do in D&D is nothing short of badly justified racial/religious genocide.

So, defending yourself or others is genocide now? Just because someone has a home and family doesn't mean they can't be evil bastards. If a raiding party tries to butcher a village, or a group of bandits attacks a caravan, defending against them is not "badly justified genocide". It's the logical course of action. And they are the bad guys, regardless if they're humans, orcs, single, fathers of large families, if they do that for living or just for lulz.

[Talakeal]

@Hallavast:
I hate to get into statting out rape rules, but I fail to see how an attempted rape could be represented by anything but some form grapple check.
Thank you.

Beating to unconsciousness, intimidation, magical coercion, or first restraining or crippling the victim using inanimate object. Also just because the strongest goblin is a worse grappler than the average human doesn't mean all goblins are weaker than all humans or that said goblins won't occasionally win a grapple roll. And also the goblins will likely have the advantage of numbers.

[Ravens_cry]

Beating to unconsciousness, intimidation, magical coercion, or first restraining or crippling the victim using inanimate object. Also just because the strongest goblin is a worse grappler than the average human doesn't mean all goblins are weaker than all humans or that said goblins won't occasionally win a grapple roll. And also the goblins will likely have the advantage of numbers.
MAgical coercion not likely to be available, they also have penelties for intimidation checks for low charisma AND checks due to small size. And trading blow for blow, an average human out damages an average goblin, both from size and strength. It's not impossible, but it's not going to be easy. ANd why would they even want to? Bulky, big chinned, small eared freaks? Ugh, ugly humans.

[Caewil]

So, defending yourself or others is genocide now? Just because someone has a home and family doesn't mean they can't be evil bastards. If a raiding party tries to butcher a village, or a group of bandits attacks a caravan, defending against them is not "badly justified genocide". It's the logical course of action. And they are the bad guys, regardless if they're humans, orcs, single, fathers of large families, if they do that for living or just for lulz.
If PCs limited themselves to defending, which they usually do not. In a normal D&D game, how often do the PCs actually try to negotiate or change the behavior of the monsters peacefully?

[Cubey]

How is defense and negotiation equivalent? A stereotypical DnD session goes:

1. Adventurers hear of a place of eeevil
2. They go there
3. Monsters attack
4. Adventurers kill them
Repeat until end of dungeon.

Key points are the first and the third. 1 shows us that the denizens of the place of eeevil are, to put it mildly, not the most pleasant kind of folk. Ergo, killing them might not be a terrible idea. It's not enough, but there comes 3: they are the ones to draw weapons first. They do nothing to dimiss the notion that they are the bad guys. Now, if the locals, be them monsters or whatever, acted in less aggressive ways: not being the first ones to attack or hell, even yelling at the party to go away because it's their home and uninvited guests should leave, then fair enough: killing them might be more morally questionable. But as it typically goes, I got nothing.

[Thajocoth]

...To illustrate, here is one of the problems every role player will fall into at some point early in his or her gaming experiences ... The correct response to this is, PLAY A DIFFERENT CHARACTER.

So true. Except, I never made a character that was a jerk, and already know not to. I did make the zealot mistake once though. Wasn't my intent... It just kinda happened.

[Kerrin]

But why doesn't it happen?.

I think it doesn't happen, generally, because it's not usually the stuff of fun fantasy-adventure fiction.

If everyone involved agrees a topic is okay to have in the game, then it could be included. However, realize that some subjects such as rape could be difficult subjects no matter what. And, anyone joining such a game should be aware of such content ahead of tiime.

Me personally, I don't need the subject of rape in my games, but that's my choice.

[imp_fireball]

If my character was raped by the DM I would leave the game in a hurry, and if I rescued the princess only to find that she had been sexually abused I would feel very uncomfortable. So it doesn't happen. But why doesn't it happen?

I think you just answered your own question.


Paladin - "There you are m'lady."

Girl - "Oh thank gods. It was terrible in that dungeon, they violated me again and again."

Paladin - "Er... do you mean to say, they raped you?"

Girl - "Well, now that I recall I suppose they did go to that drastic extant - they also brutally tortured to death all the guards that were indebted to protect me."

Paladin - "Ah well, NPCs savagely, horrifically, incomprehensibly tortured to death. That comes with a lot of villains I deal with, but..."

Girl - "Good thing you came along. They probably would have killed me later."

Paladin - "Just doing my job, but ahem... raped you... huh. Yah, I don't know if I'm all that comfortable hearing about that."

Girl - "But you slay evil doers all the time. Wouldn't you be accustomed to at least hearing about this sort of thing?"

Paladin - "Look lady, killing's expected, but I'm not a therapist. I can't help you there..."

Girl - "Expected? I think it should be equally likely anything else is expected as killing! In fact, I must dare say being violated was preferable to being killed. I love life!"

Paladin - "Okay, please don't make this any more awkward than it already is."

Girl - "I can't believe I'm hearing this. I'm offending your dignity am I? Why are all paladins mimicries of catholic chastity? I mean, c'mon they're men and they're warriors and they just happen to smite evil."

Paladin - "Oh jeeze, here it comes with the discrediting... and here I thought you'd be all polite and fragile and innocent and yet nubile and attractive as most dames should be. But okay, look if you want to dwell on this, fine. I won't be here to transport you back home on my celestial mount."

Girl - "What do you mean? I'm a young, defenseless traumatized girl who has yet to be married. Do you expect villains to be affably evil?"

Paladin - "No, just lawful evil ones."

Girl - *facepalm* "Lawful evil doesn't always mean 'affably evil'."

Paladin - "Yah well... I'm really starting to feel quite strange around you. What with you no longer being a virgin and all."

Girl - "Um... okay. But I still need to get home, since that where it's safe, right?"

Paladin - "I don't think... no not really."

Girl - "What does that mean?"

Paladin - "Just what I said. I don't need for you to tick off the moral guardians anymore than is necessary in one session. Alright well I'm gone. Find your own way home. It's easy, it's just a few survival ranks and a feat." *departs on horse*

Girl - "Okay, then where does that leave me! Um... hello? I'm a commoner with no XP and no feats since everything's been handed up to me until now being the daughter of a noble and all. How am I going to get home? The nerve! Ah well, I guess could head back to the villain's hide out. Odds are I'm as good as dead otherwise. And I love life after all - like I just told that dumb paladin. Even if it means becoming evil in bitterness myself, which was clearly indicated subtly through prevalent dialogue."

*later on* Paladin - "Having to talk with that dame was a higher CR than fighting those goblins. Seriously."


If everyone involved agrees a topic is okay to have in the game, then it could be included. However, realize that some subjects such as rape could be difficult subjects no matter what. And, anyone joining such a game should be aware of such content ahead of tiime.

Rape is about as equally comfortable a topic for me as hard drugs and rock'n'roll and of course sex.

In fact, when I was younger, it was real obeying ethnic stereotypes that got to me, what with being afraid of being called a racist and everything. Now, not so much even.


I try to reflect that feeling in my games because as humans, the greatest evils are within ourselves.

Not to mention fighting other humans is scary. Especially when you realize they are equally as creative and capable of violence as you.

[The_Admiral]

Simple Discipline soldiers allowed to slip the leash will degenerate into a mob

[valadil]

Quick question, as a game master how do I present a realistic world where violence towards women doesn't occur regularly? I currently just gloss over it completely, but it seems awkward, sort of like the elephant in the room that no one mentions.


A realistic world is not necessary like our world. There are enough other differences that the role of gender in society would be different than in our world.

The way I see it is that with so many humanoid races around, racism is rampant and out of control to the point where nobody even bothers with sexism. Sure, women may on average be slightly weaker than men. Orcs are verifiably stronger than humans, by a margin a whole lot greater than that between women and men. Why bother hating on women when other species are even more different?



For example, when the players or other female NPCs are taken prisoner, why aren't they raped? You have a bunch of violent evil beings having a bunch of attractive young women as their prisoners, it seems like the natural course. But it just seems wrong.


First off, it's fantasy. Knights in shining armor exist in a happier world where this kind of thing doesn't happen. I admit fantasy isn't always the case, but it seems to be the de facto standard in D&D.

Violent evil beings are not all rapists. They don't necessarily know that they're evil. They don't necessarily want to be evil. They don't want to be punished for evil. Kidnappers may be put in jail in a world where rapists are hanged. That's motivation enough for a self interested evil character.

[Ravens_cry]

Simple Discipline soldiers allowed to slip the leash will degenerate into a mob
Trouble is, for your typical orc marauders, that's what they ARE.
Heck, it's supposed to be where half-orcs come from, though I would like to play a half-orc, raised by a loving family where Mum liked her men a bit softer.

[imp_fireball]

Why bother hating on women when other species are even more different?

Because humans are generally opinionated and hate a lot of things. Heck, being black over being white is only a minor characteristic about a person, but humanity has shown that people don't often look beyond those basic characteristics when they deal with them as strangers.

Also, life is generally very hard, especially for humans and other LA 0 races. So the stronger take out their frustrations on the weaker.


I would like to play a half-orc, raised by a loving family where Mum liked her men a bit softer.

Not hard. Maybe he's got noble heirs. Maybe his mom was an adventurer who fell in love with an orc she used to hate, had many deadly encounters with, but eventually grew to love or whatever (or gender reversal; orc women might make decent warriors since they're probably harsher than human women).


Sure, women may on average be slightly weaker than men.

As it stands, culture makes women a lot weaker than men as opposed to men being weaker than orcs. But that's because culture makes it so that women don't feel they need to try to be as physically/mentally tough as men (whereas men are physically weaker but mentally on par with orcs in regards to bravery, etc.). Not because women are naturally that way.

But let's not get into that. Heh.


Knights in shining armor exist in a happier world where this kind of thing doesn't happen.

I don't think of a world as 'happier' where it's implied that prisoners are tortured to death... which seems to suggest the existence of dungeons at all.

Also, the very definition of knight is pretty much a dedicated absolutist warrior with expensive equipment (especially when it shines just right in the sun). Why do they exist if the world is so happy?

Really, what you probably meant was 'world blanketed by moral guardian approval' rather then 'cynical realism'.


lower body strength questionable.

Women have proportionately more lower body weight due to their larger hips and birth canals though.


But for a game that's played by 12 year old kids, including my cousin and me 20 years ago, it's just something you don't do.

1st Ed said '10 and up' I believe, but really it can be played by anyone.


There is, thank gods, no official rules for rape in 3.5

Could probably just go into a small 'sexual option' in book of erotic fantasy/whatever that was called. Pretty much the same as regular sex, except it could end when the unwilling party escapes I guess.


Because the world isn't FATAL.

No the world isn't fatal because it doesn't use the same mechanics. Also, it doesn't enjoy forcing people to spend 3 hours creating characters and including details that will never come up in game (the size of one's genitals isn't a sexy thing imo; and anyone who wants erotic elements in their games is likely to take after it for the pleasantry at least as much as the realism - cold hard facts don't matter since sexual details are so insignificant and frivolous compared to the actual prevalence other fluff like 'why do dragons exist?' or 'a dragon's breath weapon is not as deadly as an STI', where it would always be more deadly unless the STI is magical) - things like feats and class features in 3.5 don't necessarily have to appear in-game but it often makes players want to include them whenever they can since they chose them and the game didn't force it upon them (so, like you don't have to take 'power attack' because you have a 'mole on your left nostril'; having a 'mole on your left nostril' is up to player character preferred appearance description).


(Disturbing things or things that jar with the mood and tone)

The epic wizard just farted. It was very smelly and not at all epic!

GM: Please describe your entire morning routine in lurid detail.
Player: Um, um... well, I get up. I put my pants on one leg at a time.
GM: Not interesting enough!
Player: Okay, well um... well, since I'm a wizard, I levitate into my pants. See?
GM: Good, good and... ?


but then where do all the half orcs/ogres/giants/trolls/dragons etc come from?

Maybe they're specific bands that haven't been with their own women for a very long time?


In your cosmology make a god/dess of sex who punishes those who rape by sending archons after them. Or have a giant magical artefact that puts a geas on everybody not to rape. Work it into the story or setting somehow.

That usually draws attention to it though. And then the players want to get rid of the artefact/geas or whatever.


1at least not in a game that specifically doesn't carry a disclaimer about such beforehand. A game that specifically calls out that it may include sexual situations, including possibly situations of sexual violence, is acceptable in my book. But I, frankly, need to be aware beforehand that it is a possibility.

Ah yes. Culture has mandated a parental advisory.

Imo, any game that says that it expects 'mature players' should be completely open to this sort of thing at any time - hence there needs to be no parental advisory.


For the same reason that games don't include complicated rules for which diseases you get when your PC doesn't maintain a well-balanced diet.

I could easily include something called 'lifestyle' to indicate temporary bonuses/penalties to certain ability scores assuming the lifestyle is retained (ie. the life style of a man who sits at a desk all day would have temporary penalties to physical ability scores) - but then again, 'adventurer' is basically a single life style of its own, hence adventurers don't need to worry about 'well balanced diets' since they get enough exercise as is.

The adventurer lifestyle would be 'optimal' - basically no temporary bonuses or penalties to ability scores. Lifestyle usually changes when a character lives in a certain way for at least two weeks, say - also depending on racial metabolism (so some creatures might be listed as different from the human 2 weeks, depending on fluff - ie. elves may take longer to change because their metabolism allows them to live longer and age more slowly).


Heroes are so rare as to be non-existent. It's lead to a society of jaded, bitter, cynical people who jealously scramble to hold on to what's theirs.

Hence, why being a hero matters more for the PC and how they relate to NPCs. Hence why realism can be a viable option.


In many ways, culturally, we have become desensitized to violence.

I think it's also subconscious - in that violence used to be viewed as a solution (definitely a societal view in the real world in the near past I'd say). And why the word 'evil' was invented, etc.


If you let realism invade too much into your RPG's, you threaten to make a game as dark as our life can be. Because this means as bright as the heroes try to be, you'll find villains just as dark. Individuals who rape, maim, blind, castrate, humilate, and laugh while they do it. Did that idea make you cringe? Well, that's a good reaction to have... the idea of an individual that dark is supposed to be disturbing if you have any empathy for other living beings.

Yah, that's why the word 'evil' was invented. D&D seems to suggest that evil is included, so why not make evil believably evil?

Anything less is 'saturday cartoon evil'. The players slay the evil guy, but he doesn't seem very evil. It doesn't really put much satisfaction into the deed beyond the XP and plot continuation/GM discarding an NPC stat block and also undervalues 'good' too. You can't have good without evil and vice versa.


I don't know many people who play these games after murder of someone close to them, many times because it personalizes what was previously a distant problem.

You actually know people who had friends that were murdered? Eh... I'm no psychologist but it's safe to say that everyone has different perceptions that can change drastically after any amount of trauma.

That doesn't necessarily mean they can stop doing things they enjoy - although doing so is considered a sign of depression quite often.


But we would seamlessly go into taking about where the hell these arctic orcs even got their food, and why their currency system wasn't hyperinflated by the neighbouring goblins.

I thought cliche orcs are tribal - meaning they barter. Meaning they don't have currency. :P

Also, maybe they're so bad ass that they hunt polar bears and swim in frigid waters.


But it adds NOTHING to the game.

Wrong right there. It adds characterization. Maybe one character could take being raped over being killed while another would rather just die.

Maybe one character is a serial rapist but in all other things he tries to be a hero. It's all characterization.

The reason writing is so great is because it tries very hard not to be packaged in any way.



But the very threat of "forced marriage" by a supremely evil lord against a young, innocent lady

Hey, that's an example of packaging. The assumption that every setting is heavily lorded over by moralist (inspired by certain real world religious) humans. 'Marriage before sex' is one of the ideas inspired by real world religion, almost subconsciously. Which is silly really.

I think a player should be allowed to have an LG paladin that is also promiscuous. Maybe they follow a different deity or whatever.

Also, an evil lord need not be a lord. The term 'lord' might be used loosely, or it may officiate actual nobility. In that case, marriage of a young lady who is also the daughter of an affluent noble would make sense. Except it's less dramatic, and more underhanded. The evil guy does it to wedge himself more into the diplomatic community - he probably has a harem for those other things (or maybe he rapes random civilians, oh noes).

Or it could be the point of comedy that he desires to bed an unattractive daughter or that he's gay or that (gasp) he's really a woman. The PCs would say, 'we don't care' but then they learn he's doing it for political gain.


Some things about humanity are completely irrational. In many ways, culturally, we have become desensitized to violence. Violence and murder are also easier to abstract out, comparatively few people's lives have been touched by murder vs. those who have been touched by sexual violence. Certain people have difficulty getting over things that are close to them. I don't know many people who play these games after murder of someone close to them, many times because it personalizes what was previously a distant problem.

Yep it really is just a personal issue among society. Also reflects upon the fact that people in the real world truly are weaker then the heroes reflected in D&D when they consider sexual assault or even plain sexual harassment worse than cold blooded murder.


since the IRL advantages of men over women are increased average strength

Not even. Just increased metabolism - meaning men are more likely to be stronger than women when they exercise as a standing point.

----
This all reminds of that one movie where the main villain shot one of his henchmen going up against one of the lead female characters who was wounded.

"We don't rape our enemies, we kill them!"

Funny at the time. But still made me go 'ugh...' considering the movie still condoned the F word in every second sentence and over the top violence (also the personality of the good guy sergeant was that of a hip gangsta wannabe, when in reality an actual sergeant broken by war would be wise enough to know that that sort of thing reflects upon low self esteem :smallamused:).

[Zeb The Troll]

Troll Patrol: This thread has wandered, several times, too closely to some Inappropriate Topics. I'm going to close it now before it actually crosses a line.