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imp_fireball
2010-09-10, 11:32 PM
This is a serious take on 'real life abstractly mimics D&D'.

Anyway, here's me (http://mydndgame.com/character/3442/sheet).

Thajocoth
2010-09-11, 12:03 AM
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Human, Programmer, Video Game Programmer
Background: Occupation - Entertainer (+2 to History)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 18, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 15, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8.


AC: 18 Fort: 21 Reflex: 21 Will: 22
HP: 18 Surges: 4 Surge Value: 4

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +18, Endurance +14, Diplomacy +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +7, Insight +10, Intimidate +4, Nature +10, Religion +5, Stealth +8, Streetwise +4, Thievery +8, Athletics +5

FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 2: Steady Feet
Level 4: Armor Proficiency (Cloth)
Level 6: Skill Focus (Perception)
Level 8: Paragon Defenses
Level 10: Lightning Reflexes
Level 11: Fleet-Footed

POWERS

ITEMS
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Programmer is a Wis/Int class. At Lvl 12 I select a specialization in my Paragon Path, and I'm nearly there. I'm gonna pick "Artificial Intelligence Video Game Programmer".

I have a tendency not to get sick, and tend to heal quickly, hence the Con, Endurance & Human Perserverence.

My senses are all exceptional hence the Perception and Focus: Perception.

I've got very good reflexes and can block a lot of poke attacks in a short time with them, hence the Lightning Reflexes and Dex.

My normal walking speed is faster than average, therefore Fleet-Footed & Steady Feet.

I do a lot of what I do based on intuition, rather than anything learned, combined with my senses = High Wis.

I have great luck, which I put as Paragon Defenses.

While I'm not very Charismatic, people and animals I meet offline tend to like me, so trained in Diplomacy, with about the same in Nature.

I have a lot of trouble lying or being intimidating or whatnot, hence the dumped Cha.

Only problem here: Insight should be MUCH lower.

Peregrine
2010-09-11, 01:24 AM
Hmm, 3.5 stats for me... To save overthinking it, I'll just take a 25-point buy. (I was going to use the elite array for even less overthinking, but I need to make both Con and Cha substandard. *shrug* And my ego won't let me use the non-elite array and take a 13 Int. :smalltongue:)

LG Human Expert 3
Class skills include multiple Knowledges
Str 10
Dex 11
Con 8
Int 17
Wis 14
Cha 9

What class(es) would I be if I were a PC in a D&D game? I'd like to think wizard (in fact, possibly a wizard/cleric/mystic theurge -- one of those "race/class" quiz things once gave me that), though I'd dream of being a paladin, but I'd much more likely be a factotum.

Gralamin
2010-09-11, 01:41 AM
This is probably skewed to be a bit high, but hey, I'm pretty awesome.

PL1 22 Points
Str 8, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 10 (-2-2+2+6+4 = 10)
ATK +0 (Traded off both atk and defense for higher skill max :smalltongue:)
DEF +0
Toughness +0
Will +2 (2 Points)
Fort +0
Ref +0
Skills (32 ranks, 8 points)
-Computers 8
-Concentration 5
-Knowledge (Technology) 8
-Knowledge (Physical Sciences) 5
-Knowledge (Popular Culture) 4
-Survival 2
Feat: Skill Mastery (1 point) - Computers, Knowledge (Technology), Concentration, Knowledge (Physical Sciences)
Powers: Quickness (Mental) 2. (1 point)

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-11, 01:44 AM
Does D20 Modern have an NPC class system, or just heroic classes?

If so I'd be the D20 modern equivalent of an Expert I'd guess. I'm not sure I'd be a Smart... maybe a Smart with Savant? I'd have low Wisdom and very low Charisma and a few Flaws, due to the Autism Spectrum Disorder.

Dracons
2010-09-11, 01:48 AM
Dream Scores: All 20.

Reality Scores:
Str: 11 (By player Handbook rules)
Dex: 14. Always had insane reflexes and can bend greatly, even with my horrid hip.
Con: 12. Rarely get sick. Fast Healer. Would be higher, but do get winded.
Int: 10 Eh. Average intelligence.
Wis: 15. Been told repeatedly that I have incredible senses, both in people and in the real world.
Cha: 12: I'm nice for the most part. People like me at times. Pretty ugly to look at. Low self esteem hurts me the most.

imp_fireball
2010-09-11, 02:06 AM
Hmm, 3.5 stats for me... To save overthinking it, I'll just take a 25-point buy. (I was going to use the elite array for even less overthinking, but I need to make both Con and Cha substandard. *shrug* And my ego won't let me use the non-elite array and take a 13 Int. :smalltongue:)

Human expert 3
Class skills include multiple Knowledges
Str 10
Dex 11
Con 8
Int 17
Wis 14
Cha 9

What class(es) would I be if I were a PC in a D&D game? I'd like to think wizard (in fact, possibly a wizard/cleric/mystic theurge -- one of those "race/class" quiz things once gave me that), though I'd dream of being a paladin, but I'd much more likely be a factotum.

As (I think) I already explained, this is a realistic assertation.

You can't be a level 11 wizard if you can't cast spells. Heck you can't even be a level 3 expert if a single dagger stab could mortally wound you.

That's why I'm a level 1 commoner.

Yes, the world is hard and PCs try very hard to become what they are - that's why they're dubbed heroes.


Cha: 12: I'm nice for the most part. People like me at times. Pretty ugly to look at. Low self esteem hurts me the most.

Attractiveness, self esteem and how nice you are are all personality traits - nothing to do with charisma.

Charisma is a supernatural trait. If you find that people seem to generally listen to you despite the way to assert yourself, then that could be higher charisma. If people think your mean when you are just trying to come off as confident - that could be low charisma. If you have great social instincts (as in, 'now it's getting awkward for the other person', 'this is a moment worth laughing at', 'I should behave this way to appear more human', 'I must behave this way to seem more interesting and not just stupid', etc.), that could reflect better charisma. Just examples.

Wonton
2010-09-11, 02:08 AM
Have you ever heard that 92% of drivers think they're above average at driving? Unlike most statistics, that one's not made up. Just saying that it's really hard to stat yourself, cause you'd never make yourself below average in anything. Having said that, here's me very conservatively statting myself (otherwise I'd probably have a +3 boost in all stats):

Str 12 - Tall guy, actually spend some time at the gym.
Dex 12 - I want to put at least 15 here, but I'm only a little faster than most people, and my reflexes are good but not amazing.
Con 12 - I see a pattern. I have more endurance than most of my friends, but endurance might be tied to Strength too... I definitely don't get sick easily though.
Int 15 - 2nd-year Engineering, near the top of my class. Still not arrogant enough to put anything higher here.
Wis 8 - Memory and common sense sometimes fail me. Not great at understanding people's motivations.
Cha 13 - My personality is forceful, which is pretty much the definition of Charisma. Sometimes, it's too forceful though, so I'm not super amazing at convincing people.

Edit: Hey! I'm 25-point buy! Most of my characters are around 50-point buy, though... which shows just how superhuman most of them are. :smalleek:

imp_fireball
2010-09-11, 02:12 AM
Just saying that it's really hard to stat yourself, cause you'd never make yourself below average in anything.

No, it's a thought experiment.

And mainly people tend to think they're good at something when they devote most of their time into it. Really, it's all a product of ego, which penetrates deeply into influencing human thought.


Having said that, here's me very conservatively statting myself (otherwise I'd probably have a +3 boost in all stats):

Ego perpetuates deeper than 'having or not having one'. Hence, what I'm saying is, ego could still cause you to think that your stats are reasonable even if they aren't despite the fact that you made all effort to make them reasonable (hence, ego has even greater influence when you think you did all you could to make something sound reasonable).


My personality is forceful, which is pretty much the definition of Charisma. Sometimes, it's too forceful though, so I'm not super amazing at convincing people.

Do people often listen to you though? Do they think you're cool or intelligent sounding, etc.?

People hardly ever listen to what I have to say unless they make a careful effort - hence my charisma is pretty damn low. Probably even a 6 or so. :P

Though when I enunciate my words, they do react more often. :smallbiggrin:

Malificus
2010-09-11, 02:14 AM
I'd stat myself as an level 1 expert with 10 in every stat. At best I'd give myself a 12 in Strength, and Con, and a 13 Int. But I feel awkward doing so.

I assume 10s until I have evidence otherwise.

imp_fireball
2010-09-11, 02:17 AM
I assume 10s until I have evidence otherwise.

That's a good method - but then again, what makes you think you are skilled enough to warrant requiring expert to represent all of your skills?


I'm not sure I'd be a Smart

Smarts have way more skills than experts. -_-


Con: 12. Rarely get sick. Fast Healer. Would be higher, but do get winded.

I think Con could also reflect metabolism. So, do you build muscle quickly when exercising? Can you build up good cardio quickly, etc.


I'd have low Wisdom and very low Charisma and a few Flaws, due to the Autism Spectrum Disorder.

ASD could probably just be covered by one flaw. I mean, it can give great advantages to wisdom and intelligence sometimes (everyone is different though) and it only really disadvantages a few things in regards to adventuring.

Just some distinct social disadvantages - people find it harder to empathize with you, you have difficulty getting a point across, you might take a -4 penalty to social related skills (but not necessarily charisma) and guessing at what others are thinking (minor sense motive penalty).


Most of my characters are around 50-point buy, though

Why does your GM allow characters with max in three ability scores? :smallconfused:

Heck, even one is pushing it.

For the record:

- 12 point buy = Average

- Up to 24 point buy = Exceptional
- 28 point buy and higher = Heroic
- 32 point buy = Distinct Heroic
- Anything above that is probably supernatural (I've never met any one in real life or even know any historical figures with scores above 32 point buy; heck my scores alone mean I could accomplish something very significant if I try hard enough)

Rayzin
2010-09-11, 02:27 AM
Str-15 I spend a lot of time in the gym, 4 times a week. But i'm kinda short so i cant get that strong. But i can lift 140 above my head and bench 150+.
Dex-10(or 8) I run pretty fast, but i have a terrible sense of balance and flexibility.
Con- 12 or 13 I think i got sick like once this year. I injure myself a lot, but it heals decently fast. And although i don't run fast, i jog for 1.5 miles easily.
Int- 12 I'm no smart cookie, but i'm in IB courses and have skipped one grade.
Wisdom- 10 I'm ofter narrow minded, stubborn. I don't think i qualify in the slightest as wise or perceptive.
Cha- 11 My personality comes out as very strong(?) happy child, but sometimes as a very pessimistic glum one. I wouldn't say i'm much of an extrovert but i would be on that side of the scale.

I'd be a Strong Hero if i was a D20 modern character.
Or just a Fighter if i was a D&D character, or i'd want to be. I'd probably end up as a commoner.

imp_fireball
2010-09-11, 02:29 AM
Str-15 I spend a lot of time in the gym, 4 times a week. But i'm kinda short so i cant get that strong. But i can lift 140 above my head and bench 150+.

150+ is average, no offense. If you can bench at least 200 that's probably 11-13.

Me, I bench roughly 200+ (I haven't touched upon 300), but I'm probably afraid to lift 100 or higher over my head. :P

And yes being short (or a midget) is a disadvantage. :P D&D is unforgiving.


I'm no smart cookie, but i'm in IB courses and have skipped one grade.

I'd say that anyone with average Int or higher can get straight As if they study like mad (as any 'ideal student' would really).

I've got a high Int, but my grades are fairly average since I've had a reputation of being very lazy. In fact, I don't think I've ever put much effort into schooling and I'm 21. I think I've kinda free loaded on my IQ. >_>


I'm ofter narrow minded, stubborn. I don't think i qualify in the slightest as wise or perceptive.

Anyone who has devoted a lot of their maturation stages towards self reflection probably has roughly average wisdom. Self reflection is a prerequisite to any amount of wisdom, so those who have never self reflected probably have like 4 wisdom at most (and those who only give it a little thought and then ignorantly reassure themselves may be the same way; or up to 6 Wis at most). :P


Con- 12 or 13 I think i got sick like once this year. I injure myself a lot, but it heals decently fast. And although i don't run fast, i jog for 1.5 miles easily.

That's probably average, I'd say. Humans were made for physical activity really. That's why we can gain weight quickly in our very soft and forgiving society.


I run pretty fast, but i have a terrible sense of balance and flexibility.

Explosiveness when running can just as easily be reflected by strength though. Also, anyone can learn to become flexible but I might take them longer to get coordinated or whatever.

I think of dexterity as the 'physical intelligence' that the best athletes tend to demonstrate - also bodily and spacial awareness (somewhat related to co-ordination).

If you have a lot of control over your own mind (wisdom), you can get this way through meditation and incorporation the ability to think ahead into regular physical activity.


Or just a Fighter if i was a D&D character, or i'd want to be. I'd probably end up as a commoner.

Yah, a fighter would be a major weapon enthusiast in the modern world. They'd know how to take apart many guns and put them back together. The smart ones would dive into military science and put studied tactical knowledge to use.

Wonton
2010-09-11, 02:35 AM
Why does your GM allow characters with max in three ability scores? :smallconfused:

Usually we roll three full sets of stats and then you choose any one set. For example, for my last character, this yielded 17/16/15/14/13/10. As you can see, no 18s. Rolling a random 50-point set is way less overpowered than just allowing 50-point buy (cause then, like you said, everyone's stats would be 18/18/18/10/8/8, which is absurd).

I'd also like to add this (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) and this (http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/). 1st is long, with some annoying questions. 2nd is shorter, and stats better I think. For reference, 1st gave me 13/14/15/14/13/13 and 2nd gave 14/11/11/15/15/11. Either both overestimate Wisdom, or I underestimate my Wisdom. :smallconfused:


Str-15 I spend a lot of time in the gym, 4 times a week. But i'm kinda short so i cant get that strong. But i can lift 140 above my head and bench 150+.

Lol no offense but I can bench 170 and I put my Strength as 12.


Charisma is a supernatural trait.

I don't entirely agree with that. Course, this is where the pure separation of D&D stats starts to break down. If I think really hard, instead of just "winging it", I can usually figure out what a person's motivations are and come up with a more appropriate response.

Peregrine
2010-09-11, 02:58 AM
As (I think) I already explained, this is a realistic assertation.

Well, you didn't; you used words like "serious" and "abstractly". But fine, then I'm a level 1 Pedant, and by the way, it's "assertion". :smalltongue:


Heck you can't even be a level 3 expert if a single dagger stab could mortally wound you.

Okay, let's not get into the whole possible melange of "what HP represent"/"what do levels represent"/"why are really good bakers and lawyers hard to kill" questions, and just ask, why are you even using D&D stats (any edition) for this?

I put myself as a level 3 expert because (a) I have enough skills and life experience to figure I would definitely be at least second level, and I decided to be generous, and (b) I have certain assumptions and guidelines on how I, personally, interpret the level system, and the question was how would I stat myself?


Attractiveness, self esteem and how nice you are are all personality traits - nothing to do with charisma.

Charisma is a supernatural trait.

This... would take a whole other thread to sort out. :smallconfused:

imp_fireball
2010-09-11, 03:22 AM
If I think really hard, instead of just "winging it", I can usually figure out what a person's motivations are and come up with a more appropriate response.

That's why charisma is more than just winging it or thinking really hard.


Well, you didn't; you used word like "serious"

Serious means you should take this seriously and not say 'I'm a wizard because I wanna be'.

Mikeavelli
2010-09-11, 03:23 AM
Lol no offense but I can bench 170 and I put my Strength as 12.



Everyone hail the carrying capacity tables (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) which lets you know exactly what your strength score is.

The qualifier is being able to lift the max weight in the table over your head, I wouldn't go by Bench Press, but rather the Clean and Jerk, which tends to be a bit lower of a number for most people.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-11, 03:54 AM
I'm still curious -- Does D20 Modern have non heroic classes? Cause I'm no hero...

Morph Bark
2010-09-11, 03:59 AM
Ha! My friends and I were actually talking about this last night, including alignments of our past teachers and the classes of our friends. They agreed easily on what classes they would be, but none of them could really figure me out, though they agreed that Int was likely my highest stat and that I had 1 rank in a bunch of Knowledge skills - plus they agreed on my Flaws. From this I concluded that if I were to have levels in a PC class, it's likely Factotum, though of course Expert is more likely.

For added realism and not trying to boast, I'm going to go with point buy (28) here.

Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 9, Cha 13

Level 1 Factotum

Nearsighted Flaw corrected by glasses
Absent-minded Flaw (never corrected)

0 ranks in Use Technological Device (can be used untrained and usually require help), Listen (and possibly Search and Spot as well), and Drive (still learning)
1 rank in Knowledge (arcana (=physics), nature, religion, history, geography, local, psionics (=psychology), the planes (=outer space))
At least 2 ranks in Swim, Climb, Hide and Gather Information (last one possibly maxed out)
Maxed out Bluff

Feats? No idea. Adept Learner perhaps, but of a kind that also makes you lose the ranks easily again if you don't use the skill every 6 days, after which you can slowly regain them or put them in another skill in which you have at least 1 point.

Other than that, I don't know.


EDIT: Also, Chaotic Neutral. Also, while talking to my friends I had a big reaction like "wait a minute, I think we're calling our friends Good and our teachers Evil an awful lot..." (:smalltongue:) But I'm pretty sure I fall in the Chaotic Neutral territory.

Malificus
2010-09-11, 04:03 AM
That's a good method - but then again, what makes you think you are skilled enough to warrant requiring expert to represent all of your skills?

I've finished college. I therefor have more training than a D&D commoner.

Morph Bark
2010-09-11, 04:06 AM
I've finished college. I therefor have more training than a D&D commoner.

A DnD Commoner is moreso a medieval/renaissance farmer anyway. Craftsmen are already Commoners of sorts. These days in the more developed countries that have lots of education, I actually doubt there are a lot of Commoners (though I'm damn sure my grandpa could have the Chicken Infested flaw, cuz maaaaannn...).

Spiryt
2010-09-11, 04:14 AM
I've finished college. I therefor have more training than a D&D commoner.

You have more training in whatever you were learning in college.

I doubt that you have more training in agricultural works, or whatever your 'commoner' is doing.

But then again, D&D is anyway completely sucky at describing real people.

Lord Raziere
2010-09-11, 04:26 AM
I'd say....

Str: 8
Con: 10
Dex: 11-12
Wis: 14/16/18
Cha:16/18
Int: 14/16/18

not really sure, but I am primarily mental stat based. I'd probably be a Psion.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-11, 04:42 AM
I'm Level 8 Geek. My powers are:


At will: Recite Generic Trivia
At will: Sarcastic Remark
Encounter: Craft Forum Post
Encounter: Cunning Strategy
Encounter: Recite Obscure Trivia
Daily: Craft Computer Program
Daily: Read Entire Book
Utility: Internet Search
Utility: Remember Song Lyrics

Tyger
2010-09-11, 06:01 AM
Everyone hail the carrying capacity tables (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) which lets you know exactly what your strength score is.

The qualifier is being able to lift the max weight in the table over your head, I wouldn't go by Bench Press, but rather the Clean and Jerk, which tends to be a bit lower of a number for most people.

The problem with using these tables (and any D&D stat system attempting to reflect reality) is that they are horribly skewed. The current world record for clean and jerk is 580 pounds. Which requires a strength of 23. In D&D terms, assuming no magic and human race, that means the world record holder is a level 18 minimum character. Which we know he isn't. :)

As for my stats, based on the tables available:

Level 2 Expert - Two degrees (one post secondary) and 10 years of professional expertise and experience, while being recognized as an expert in my field by my peers and colleagues.

STR: 14 (I c&j 145 pounds, though I don't think this is accurate at all, as I am below average in strength)

DEX: 10 (I don't fall over much :) but I also don't have any acrobatic ability)

CON: 10 (I don't get too sick when others do, and can run - not flat out though - for 30 minutes without passing out. I cycle 100 kms per week as well)

INT: 14 (two degrees without studying at all)

WIS: 10 (I make dumb ass decisions all the time, and have made some poor life choices in my time. That said, I am quite perceptive, so I think it balances out)

CHA: 14 (When I propose a plan, people follow it. Every job I have had (until I started my current one), I ended up as a supervisor or manager within weeks of starting, and I have always gotten the girl when I tried.)

And I would be willing to bet those are grossly over-inflated. :smallbiggrin:

Tetsubo 57
2010-09-11, 06:07 AM
2nd level Expert
Str: 8, Dex: 8, Con: 8, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha: 8

Frozen_Feet
2010-09-11, 07:21 AM
The problem with using these tables (and any D&D stat system attempting to reflect reality) is that they are horribly skewed. The current world record for clean and jerk is 580 pounds. Which requires a strength of 23. In D&D terms, assuming no magic and human race, that means the world record holder is a level 18 minimum character. Which we know he isn't. :)


Beeep! Wrong! Your discounting all effects equipment, skills, feats and diet could have. We can safely say many high-level bodybuilders effectively benefit from effect Potion of Bull's Strenght, so they'd have, what, d4+1 Str on top of their natural strenght? So a natural 18 would be enough to reach that score. Natural 17 even, as that record holder could easily count as level 4 character in D&D, and thus have raised his strenght once. We might not have magic, but we do have variety of things allowing humans to push their normal limits. A bodybuilder could be anywhere between level 1 and 4.

It doesn't matter if the 3 - 18 range of ability scores isn't be-all-end-all of RL human ability. In both D&D and real life, people are more than just their raw core abilities. Even at level 1, skillpoints can outweigh meaning of an ability score. That the tables are skewed doesn't matter either - if they still give a benchmark to which compare a RL human, we can still stat out that person. Whether 3d6 dice roll accurately reflects distribution of ability among RL populace is irrelevant.

Tyger
2010-09-11, 07:34 AM
Beeep! Wrong! Your discounting all effects equipment, skills, feats and diet could have. We can safely say many high-level bodybuilders effectively benefit from effect Potion of Bull's Strenght, so they'd have, what, d4+1 Str on top of their natural strenght? So a natural 18 would be enough to reach that score. Natural 17 even, as that record holder could easily count as level 4 character in D&D, and thus have raised his strenght once. We might not have magic, but we do have variety of things allowing humans to push their normal limits. A bodybuilder could be anywhere between level 1 and 4.

Except there is no magic in the real world. The guy who set the record is a human, on this planet. There are no "potions of bull's strength" here. So that logic is flawed.

One could argue that he has a high protein diet, etc, etc, but those have no game mechanics - which demonstrates that the D&D stat system doesn't work for reality. Big surprise there.

And if he was level 4, he could have a 19 strength. That's the human maximum there. 18 to start, +1 at level 4. 19 total. Maximum lift is 350 pounds. Not even close to what a "normal" albeit exceptional human has done in reality. So no, he's either level 18, or the tables don't work. We all know which one makes more sense there. :smallbiggrin:

Tengu_temp
2010-09-11, 07:39 AM
Utility: Internet Search
Utility: Remember Song Lyrics


Are those daily, encounter or at-will powers?

heymejack
2010-09-11, 07:41 AM
here's me:

str10 (i'd say i'm stronger than half the people, but weaker than the other half)
dex11 (really, i think this should be higher, but the other ones that are higher would then have to be pushed up to 16's, and i'm no superhero.
con13 (woke up during surgery and watched (deliriously), always need higher dosage for meds..
int10 (this was higher before college, but good times were had)
wis12 (generally pretty zen, but i can be a little hotheaded when i strongly disagree with something)
cha14 (see rest of post)





Attractiveness, self esteem and how nice you are are all personality traits - nothing to do with charisma.

how attractive you are and whether or not you're personable don't have anything to do with charisma? seems to me these are the main factors in charisma. if you walk up to someone smiling a big happy smile, they are more likely to warm up to you. if your big happy smile is in the middle of an pretty face, even better


Charisma is a supernatural trait. If you find that people seem to generally listen to you despite the way to assert yourself, then that could be higher charisma.

charisma is SUPERNATURAL? are you being sarcastic? is strength? is intelligence? charisma is a natural thing that every single human being has, and if you're really, really good looking, or a huge A**hole, then yes, this has everything to do with your charisma score. not (and i'm paraphrasing here) 'whether or not people listen to what you say for no apparent reason.'


**full disclosure: i wait tables for a living. and i'm very good. not necessarily super-handsome (though, not bad), but i'm very good with people. don't talk crap about charisma :)

Frozen_Feet
2010-09-11, 07:44 AM
Except there is no magic in the real world. The guy who set the record is a human, on this planet. There are no "potions of bull's strength" here. So that logic is flawed.


You're leaning on fallacious thought of "no magic means no nice things". As I stated, even without magic, real world has all sorts nifty things that allow humans to push their reasonable limits. "Potion of Bull's Strenght" is only an analogy for things in RL that have similar effects, like steroids and what not.

The carrying capacity tables have nothing to do with this, since again, there's more to characters than their core abilities. If we observe RL human behaviour and note they can do feats that correspond to a certain score, then in D&D their strenght is represented that score. Otherwise there's no meaning of assigning any score, since we're ignoring what the score represents. How the RL human achieved 23 strenght, and whether there are rules to represent that, is a separate matter from the carrying capacity tables and what their ability score is, as both D&D and real life have factors that would allow a human to push past the result of a mere 3d6 roll. :smallwink:

heymejack
2010-09-11, 08:07 AM
We might not have magic, but we do have variety of things allowing humans to push their normal limits.


Except there is no magic in the real world. The guy who set the record is a human, on this planet. There are no "potions of bull's strength" here. So that logic is flawed.


we might not have magic, except, there is no magic. gooood times.

(EDIT: frozen feet ninja'd my point. but it was his point to begin with, so who am I)
the guy who set the record for picking up heavy things was a professional at picking up heavy things. he has all the relevant skills and feats. he had a trainer, and probably worked out on a 'masterwork' weight bench. i could see a guy with an 18 or 19 str performing as if they had +4 or 5 to his heavy lift check for all that training. i mean, really, a first level character gets 4 ranks in the relevant skill. so, 18+4ranks+2masterwork workout bench+1circumstance bonus for in such a hardcore situation, he could make that check, i think.

or maybe he's a barbarian, with rage at 1st level.

Fruchtkracher
2010-09-11, 08:15 AM
I'd also like to add this (http://www.easydamus.com/character.html) and this (http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/). 1st is long, with some annoying questions. 2nd is shorter, and stats better I think. For reference, 1st gave me 13/14/15/14/13/13 and 2nd gave 14/11/11/15/15/11. Either both overestimate Wisdom, or I underestimate my Wisdom. :smallconfused:


I followed the link to the second site and did the tests there, and as a result i seem to be a true neutral halfling ranger
with stats of
strenght 15 (as a halfling!)
dex 11
con 15
int 11
and both wisdom and charisma at a 12 - though I failed pretty hard at the intelligence and wisdom departement, I feel like that test stats me out waaay to hulky :smallconfused:

Cogidubnus
2010-09-11, 09:33 AM
Level 1 Paladin/ 1 Monk

Ability scores:

STR: 14
Con: 12
Dex: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

I smite people with my fists :smalltongue:

Malfunctioned
2010-09-11, 09:41 AM
Let's see.....

Strength: 12 (I'm stronger than I look but considering I'm 5'8"/9" and weigh about 10 stone it's still not much)
Dexterity: 8 or 16/18 depending on the situation (I'm incredibly flexible, can dislocate both shoulders at will and even bend backwards to grab my own ankles and then walk around like that. However I also has Dyspraxia which means I am very clusmy and have little fine motor control, thus the disparity)
Constitution: 14 (I can take pain well and rarely get ill)
Intelligence: 16 (I'm smart, even though I don't seem it most of the time)
Wisdom: 8 (I'm far-sighted and constantly mishear words. I'm also terrible and picking up hints and noticing things.)
Charisma: 16 (I've been told I'm very charismatic, both in person and online, and I could, and have, manipulated people if I was so inclined quite easily. Luckily I'm not.)

I think that's about it. They might be a bit high though. Also I would probably be either a NG Factotum or Bard.

Setra
2010-09-11, 09:52 AM
Hmm..

Level 1 Human Commoner

Str: 12 (Above average, not outstanding)
Dex: 10 (About average)
Con: 11 (About average)
Int: 14 (Well above average)
Wis: 8 (Poor sight, low will)
Cha: 16

Probably 1 rank each in Listen, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive.

dgnslyr
2010-09-11, 09:58 AM
Hrm, I got bored and built a character loosely based on me, in a nutshell, level 1 psion, 25 pb, if I were a level 1 psion with a 25 pb.

8 Strength
9 Dexterity
10 Constitution
18 Intelligence
14 Wisdom
8 Charisma

Yeah, I'm feeble, slow, and weak. Not very sociable either. Int to the max, though.

Morph Bark
2010-09-11, 10:04 AM
One could argue that he has a high protein diet, etc, etc, but those have no game mechanics - which demonstrates that the D&D stat system doesn't work for reality. Big surprise there.

That presumes that steroids and the like don't improve human ability in no way whatsoever.

Considering we live in a society that is more technologically advanced than the average DnD world, just magic-less, one could safely presume that a lot of low-level "magic" effects can be reproduced in other ways. And I'm not even just talking about potions. Wands too, some low-level wondrous items, etc.



=Dexterity: 8 or 16/18 depending on the situation (I'm incredibly flexible, can dislocate both shoulders at will and even bend backwards to grab my own ankles and then walk around like that. However I also has Dyspraxia which means I am very clusmy and have little fine motor control, thus the disparity)

Remember that it is not all ability scores. You might just have average Dexterity or an 8, but max ranks in Escape Artist and other Dex-based skills.

Malfunctioned
2010-09-11, 10:22 AM
Remember that it is not all ability scores. You might just have average Dexterity or an 8, but max ranks in Escape Artist and other Dex-based skills.

But there is also the fact that DnD doesn't distinguish between reflexes and coordination. My very fast reflexes would give me a high Dex but my terrible coordination would make it low.

Soranar
2010-09-11, 10:33 AM
23 str is hardly unatainable for a human

level 1 barbarian

rage

22 str

now take something to pump your STR by 1 (alcohol, 4 levels, steroid, many many options)

Frozen_Feet
2010-09-11, 10:34 AM
But there is also the fact that DnD doesn't distinguish between reflexes and coordination. My very fast reflexes would give me a high Dex but my terrible coordination would make it low.

Alternatively, you could have poor Dex and Lightning Reflexes feat (etc.), or you could have a decent Dex plus a trait or flaw that causes penalty to manual skill checks. :smallwink:

It's true that core ability Dexterity doesn't differiantate between reflexes and coordination, but D&D acknowledges there are special cases where the two are different and offers a variety of effects to display it.

Many perceived flaws of the core ability system seize to exist once you take into account the rest of the game.

prufock
2010-09-11, 02:54 PM
Strength: 12-13 11. The easiest one to model. Overhead lift of 130-150. Lift off ground near 300. Based on a later comment regarding fatigue, I'll lower this to 11. Lifting stuff is HARD.
Dexterity: 10 or 13. I can do handsprings, kip ups, cartwheels, etc, but I'm not particularly flexible (can't touch my toes straight-legged). However, I need 13+ to take Improved Grapple, which doesn't make much sense to me, but there you go. Harder to model.
Constitution: 11. I jog, can run flat-out for a minute or more, but I can't hold my breath for more than 2 minutes. I don't have any particular resistance to illness, seem to get a cold twice a year, and have had more serious problems (pneumonia, collapsed lung, infections) bi-yearly or so.
Intelligence: 15. The one everyone likes to inflate, so I probably will too. I have a masters degree, and graduated with a 3.66 gpa and 81.5 average mark. I've never done an official IQ test, just online ones, which come out in the 146-154 range.
Wisdom: 9. Nearsighted, so even a spot check with no ranks should be negative. Thank goodness for corrective lenses. I own no Apple products, so my will save should be half-decent.
Charisma: 10. Not particularly likable or unlikable, not too suave with the ladies, but I seem to be able to lie. The most difficult to model. Go average!

As far as classes go, I'd say Expert level... 3 ish?
Max out ranks in Know: Psychology and Know: Statistics. Man, 54 skill points? Uh, max out Perform: guitar and Perform: singing. Okay, I can max out 5 more... Make it Tumble, Profession: Data Analyst, Climb, Computer Use and Drive (if we go modern). EDIT: Forgot Bluff. Split ranks between Drive and Bluff.

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (the only reason to put my dex at 13; I suppose I could go Expert 2/Monk 1, but I'm no monk), Skill Focus (Know Psychology or Perform Guitar).

BAB +2, melee +3, ranged +2. Fort +1 (+1), +1 (+1), +3 (+2). Average HP = 12.

I'm overthinking this.

Tyger
2010-09-11, 04:15 PM
23 str is hardly unatainable for a human

level 1 barbarian

rage

22 str

now take something to pump your STR by 1 (alcohol, 4 levels, steroid, many many options)

... and all the other "a human in the real world can get a strength of 23" posts...

A) The record was set in the Olympics - therefore no steroids. Yeah, that may be naive but its a fair assumption based on the testing. In addition Steroids don't take people above human maximums and the like, they just provide a short cut to getting there.
B) There are no mechanics for diet / environment / etc. increasing your stats. So we can't apply any of these bonuses that people keep talking about.
C) Carrying capacity is based on Strength. Strength alone. There are no skills for "Increasing your Strength" so Masterwork tools, bonus skill points, skill focus feats, etc. do not apply. If there are skills that modify your carrying capacity, I'll be happy to take this back, but please provide book and page number for said skills. Yes, weightlifting in that category is a skill in real life, but not in D&D, and we're talking about D&D stats.
D) I seriously doubt that the high level of concentration, dedication and training that is required to attain Olympic level gold medal and a world record is accomplished by a guy who freaks out and gets stronger when he froths at the mouth. Weight lifters in this class are not barbarians.

Spiryt
2010-09-11, 04:27 PM
. In addition Steroids don't take people above human maximums and the like, they just provide a short cut to getting there.

They do.

They aren't any "shortcut" they are one of the things needed to compete at crazy level of modern sport. To be faster, stronger, regenerate faster etc. you mess with the substances in your body to accomplish it. But that's another topic.


Yes, weightlifting in that category is a skill in real life, but not in D&D, and we're talking about D&D stats.

That's the reason why nobody can be really halfway decently stated with D&D, but I guess that's spoiling the fun of this thread. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, scale is just way too damn small. Some maybe 15 points between tiniest, hungry, ill lady and hypothetical huge, strong lifting, strong pushing, strong punching dynamically moving etc. hulk.... who's not really possible either, because there's no way such guy could have huge modifier to jump, for example.

But again, I guess I'm not fun. :smalltongue:

Magnema
2010-09-11, 04:29 PM
Str: 6 (I am relatively weak, and almost never work out.)
Dex: 11 (I'm relatively good at video games, although not a pro, and I have average agility, etc.)
Con: 12 (I think I've gotten sick once in the last 4-5 years. I don't have wonderful endurance, but I have an excellent metabolism.)
Int: 16 (Took BC Calculus as a sophomore in High School; got a 720 on math SAT as a 7th grader)
Wis: 12 (I am quite good at logic puzzles, but I have a horrible memory)
Cha: 9 (People listen to me, but I think only because I'm the "smart guy," not a ladies' man.)

If I were in a DnD world, I would probably be a wizard. (I computer program for fun in my spare time.) Race: probably human, possibly gnome. Alignment: probably LG, I don't know whether that would be true under pressure.

Jeff the Green
2010-09-11, 04:31 PM
Expert 2 (I'm assuming that some post-graduate work nets you Expert 2.)

STR 7 Yep, I'm kinda puny. Last I tried 65 lb was the most I could lift over my head.
DEX 6 Let's put it this way: I can't dodge attacks of opportunity from my door jam.
CON 6 Asthma? Check. Horrible endurance? Check. Caught the 'flu every year since middle school? Check.
WIS 13 Well, I'm nearsighted and can't read people, but otherwise my intuition and perception are excellent.
INT 18 Assuming that INT is essentially the same as IQ: 3d6 is distributed on a normal curve with mean 10.5 and standard deviation 3. IQ is distributed on a normal curve with mean 100 and standard deviation 15. So, for every 15 IQ points above (or below) 100, you're 3 INT points above 10.5. IQ of ~140 = INT ~18
CHA 12 I'm a little more, well, charismatic than average.

Skills (Using d20 Modern):
Computer Use: 4
Craft (Chemical): 2
Craft (Writing): 5
Decipher Script: 2
Handle Animal: 3
Knowledge (Biology): 5
Knowledge (Math): 3
Knowledge (History): 2
Knowledge (Technology): 3
Perform (String): 2
Perform (Sing): 2
Perform (Act): 4
Profession (Biologist): 5
Profession (Teacher): 1
Read/Write Language: 2
Research: 4
Ride: 1

Feats:
Skill Focus (Knowledge [Biology])
Skill Focus (Profession [Biologist])

Nefarion Xid
2010-09-11, 04:53 PM
I think Intelligence is more indicative of education instead of IQ. For instance, I'd say a university professor with a modest IQ is much more deserving of a high Intelligence stat than a high school dropout with an IQ of 150. In 4th edition, Int only serves to boost your Knowledge skills (if it's worse than your Dex, of course).

In my current game (4E) we rolled 4d6 for our stats before anything... then your friends got to organize your array for you after some debate. Then you have to pick a class/race combo that can utilize your stats. It's certainly a fun way to get around over-optimized characters and since your array will at least be comparable to everyone else at the table, you avoid any hurt feelings.

Frozen_Feet
2010-09-11, 05:03 PM
*snip*
Answers in no particular order.

I don't recall anything from d20 SRD, but d20 Modern (which we really should be using for these threads...) has several items that qive equipment bonus to Strenght, for the purposes of carrying capacity. For example, an ordinary backpack gives +1 EB, and a mesh vest gives +2.

So, there's a precedent for ordinary equipment increasing effective stats. Even without going further, a human with natural 18, level 4 from training to get +1 to strenght, and using a weight lifting belt (+1 EB to carrying capacity) would already have 20 Str. We're only 3 points off the mark.

While Barbarian rage might not a fit a bodybuilder, there's no denying that adrenaline plays a part in physical extertion and can make a human achieve incredible feats. It also creates a precedent for Extraordinary, non-supernatural increase in strenght, and I'm fairly sure it's not the only such ability available at low levels.

Steroids *do* allow a human to increase muscle mass and strenght way past the limits of normal growth and diet. The strict diets and training programs Olympic level athletes follow are specifically designed to take them past anything a normal human could reasonably achieve through natural ability and normal life. You can reasonably compare these things to D&D tomes that grant inherent bonuses to stats.

The 3d6 range is not be-all-end-all of human ability, and neither is it meant to be in the context of the overall rules. 18 is not the max of a non-magical human, and insisting it be such is stupid and against the actual rules. There might not be exact or specific rules for many RL things that allow a human to stretch his limits, but the concept of non-magical items and feats increasing human ability past natural 18 are not foreign to it. So pointing and laughing at the core ability system is rather pointless.

Soranar
2010-09-11, 05:06 PM
... and all the other "a human in the real world can get a strength of 23" posts...

A) The record was set in the Olympics - therefore no steroids. Yeah, that may be naive but its a fair assumption based on the testing. In addition Steroids don't take people above human maximums and the like, they just provide a short cut to getting there.

sorry to burst your bubble , but steroids and the like do bust the normal human limit

explanation: a normal human body has a set ratio that's regulated by your hormone levels (which are themselves set by your genes and how they manifest depending on your environment)

steroids mess up that balance (making your body "think" it requires more muscles despite the fact that they're often counterproductive to your survival)

thats why records are being broken every year , we never reach the "human" limit because we keep pushing the line further away (and then they drop dead under 40 from a brain aneurysm cause their blood pressure is too high or some major vital organ gave up)

the person trains using hormones and drugs, gains the extra muscles, gets clean and simply maintains their mass until they did their part (if they didn't just cheat by some other means)



B) There are no mechanics for diet / environment / etc. increasing your stats. So we can't apply any of these bonuses that people keep talking about.

see above


C) Carrying capacity is based on Strength. Strength alone. There are no skills for "Increasing your Strength" so Masterwork tools, bonus skill points, skill focus feats, etc. do not apply. If there are skills that modify your carrying capacity, I'll be happy to take this back, but please provide book and page number for said skills. Yes, weightlifting in that category is a skill in real life, but not in D&D, and we're talking about D&D stats.

some classes increase your strength (human paragon gives you a +2 in any stat, war hulk,)

various templates increase your str and your size (you're telling me Andre the Giant was a medium creature?)

the trait powerful build increases your effective size (technically, a large creature has a higher carrying capacity than a medium one)

if an Olympic weightlifter is not a paragon of strength, I don't know what is


D) I seriously doubt that the high level of concentration, dedication and training that is required to attain Olympic level gold medal and a world record is accomplished by a guy who freaks out and gets stronger when he froths at the mouth. Weight lifters in this class are not barbarians.

have you ever seen a weightlifter do his thing? You're telling me the grunting and screaming doesn't remind you of a raging barbarian? (wasn't Conan played a certain bodybuilder so he'd look the part...?)

and where does it say they start raging while training

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-11, 05:11 PM
What does it mean to have Decipher Script in modern America?

Cryptography training?
The Ability to read left handed Doctor's Handwriting, or student chickenscratch?
Ability to make sense of written Spanish, French, etc. without actually knowing the languages?
The ability to do newspaper language puzzles well?
The ability to read written netspeak or other written sorts of jargon well?
The ability to read the root and influential languages of English well, like German, old English, Latin, etc., without being fluent in them?

oxybe
2010-09-11, 05:27 PM
Class: NPC (in other words, no stats of actual import).

has some knowledge on internet culture, roleplaying games, computers+software, videogames as is important to the protagonists. will fight back if attacked with intent to kill, armed with a hammer, a screwdriver, an exacto-knife, a potted plant, 3 keyboards, a mouse and 2 piecemeal computers.

predisposed to being lazy but is easily persuaded in the form of cookies, pizza or thai food. food in general, really. also booze.

both in ample amounts can assure his aid, but payment after the fact is probably the way to go; a drunk & full Oxybe has his movement speed reduced to 0 squares, is prone, weakened and needs to succeed on a save every round for the next hour or fall unconscious until awoken by a cat or has had an extended rest.

initial mood towards PCs: apathetic to moderately interested depending on how eccentric they seem on first impression. interesting people can potentially pry him away from his webforums, teamfortresses or pokemons.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-11, 05:50 PM
Have you ever heard that 92% of drivers think they're above average at driving? Unlike most statistics, that one's not made up. Just saying that it's really hard to stat yourself, cause you'd never make yourself below average in anything. Having said that, here's me very conservatively statting myself (otherwise I'd probably have a +3 boost in all stats):


Because of this, the inability of people to accurately rate themselves, I'm convinced that these efforts are futile. They pop up every now and then, and it's more amusing to look at them from a "who is most egotistical" perspective. Im sure someone will come in here with ludicrous stats soon enough.

Edit: Never mind. After reading further, it appears nearly everyone has great int.

Chrono22
2010-09-11, 06:00 PM
Hmm. Well, I'll just outright say it: I'm mostly above average. I'm not claiming this as any kind of universal absolute, but from experience I typically have better natural talents and ability across the board compared to other people attempting the same task. I'm not really exceptional in anything though.
I'd say:
Strength 15-16
Constitution 10-12
Dexterity 12-15
Intelligence 13-16
Wisdom 8-12
Charisma 10-11

I won't bother with classes or levels, because they wouldn't do me or any other real person justice. I put stat ranges instead of fixed numbers, because I think ability scores are actually amalgams of tenuously related attributes. Some of which I may have lower or higher amounts in.
If you care about what I think those stats are:

Might
Stability
Handedness
Nimbleness
Endurance
Vitality
Insight (Reasoning)
Recollection
Acuity (Observation)
Willpower
Allure
Comeliness



Edit: Never mind. After reading further, it appears nearly everyone has great int.
Keep in mind this board has a bias towards people with basic reading comprehension and math skills. That puts most of us above the 50% mark.

Jallorn
2010-09-11, 06:23 PM
I would say probably:

Str: 9 or so
Dex: 11 or 12 or so
Con: about 10
Int: 15 or 16
Wis: Not sure, probably about 12 or 13
Cha: 10-12, but with a circumstantial penalty when dealing with more than a handful of people, familiar people don't count.

Probably level 2, maybe 3, but only in a generalist, mechanically subpar class.

Wonton
2010-09-11, 06:47 PM
Because of this, the inability of people to accurately rate themselves, I'm convinced that these efforts are futile. They pop up every now and then, and it's more amusing to look at them from a "who is most egotistical" perspective. Im sure someone will come in here with ludicrous stats soon enough.

Edit: Never mind. After reading further, it appears nearly everyone has great int.

Thanks for being the voice of reason. If Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking had 18 or 19 Int (as 5th-level Experts), and everyone in here actually has the intelligence they say they have, GiTP seems to be full of geniuses.

Edit: Just to cite my sources (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6V5T-45XSMNG-33-1&_cdi=5795&_user=1022551&_pii=0001691881900056&_origin=search&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F1981&_sk=999529997&view=c&wchp=dGLzVtz-zSkzS&md5=7a56554c85454c2ba5e07f5b7ac86d50&ie=/sdarticle.pdf)... Svenson (1980) Are we all less risky and more skillful than our fellow drivers?, Acta Psychologica Vol. 47, pp. 143-148

Frozen_Feet
2010-09-11, 06:54 PM
Because of this, the inability of people to accurately rate themselves, I'm convinced that these efforts are futile. They pop up every now and then, and it's more amusing to look at them from a "who is most egotistical" perspective. Im sure someone will come in here with ludicrous stats soon enough.

Edit: Never mind. After reading further, it appears nearly everyone has great int.

Define "great". If we take probability distribution of 3d6 roll as a guideline for the percentual distribution of Int scores, 25.89 % of people have Int score of 13 or above. This roughly corresponds amount of people who have standard IQ score of 115 or 120, if I remember right. Possibly more if you assume people can assign scores of the average array as they please. This is further skewed by the fact that vast majority of people using these board fall into the category of wealthy western people whose whole culture as it is favors and trains Int and associated skills. (Nevermind that the hobby itself trains and favor Int to some extent...)

It wouldn't be a suprised if most board members actually were more intelligent than average. What about you.

I agree people tend to exaggarate themselves in threads like this, but once that's been acknowledged, touting it hardly serves a purpose. There are people, after all, who are interested in accurate portrayal of themselves as a mental exercise, and people who underestimate themselves in order to not appear egoistical.

Besides, even exaggerations tell something of the person writing them. The main purpose of these threads seems to be fun anyway, so I'm not convinced misplaced self-confidence makes them futile. :smallwink:

EDIT: If one out of 216 people have Int 18 like 3d6 roll suggests, then there are roughly 35 million people with that score walking the earth. In any case, comparing distributions and standard deviations of Int and IQ, Int 18 comes of as 140 IQ; smart, but hardly a surefire sign of a genius.

Also, in d20 skillpoints, feats, experience levels and class choices tend to influence many Int based abilities much more than raw ability scores, and in real life, practice and oppurtunity are at least as big factors to becoming a 'genius' as innate ability. Read a book called Myth of Talent.

tl;dr: Int 18 does not a genius make. Period.

snoopy13a
2010-09-11, 09:15 PM
Level 20 sorceror

Strength 16
Dexterity 20
Constitution 18
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 18
Charisma 22

The bonus to charisma comes from level bonuses. The boost to dexterity and strength penalty is because I'm a halfling in real life :smallbiggrin:

Crossblade
2010-09-11, 09:27 PM
This topic of thread always turns into a debate on people over stating their self worth vs difficulty to accurately pinpoint stats against an average and the standard of said average.

Really, the question would be better if it were:
"In your self image, how would you like to stat yourself and what class would you personally like to be? Level to your own discretion."

iDM
2010-09-11, 09:36 PM
iDM
CN Rogue 2
Str...12
Con...11
Dex...9
Int...1418
Wis...9
Cha...9

Craft(junk)...3 ranks
Hide...2 ranks
Jump...2 ranks
Knowledge(History)...2 ranks
Knowledge(Mathematics)...2 ranks
Move Silently...3 ranks
Sense Motive...5 ranks
Use Duct Tape...5 ranks

Improved Unarmed Strike

After reading Jeffrey the Green's post, I rectified my Int score.

And yes, yes I do have max ranks in Use Duct Tape. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-11, 09:47 PM
Define "great".If we take probability distribution of 3d6 roll as a guideline for the percentual distribution of Int scores, 25.89 % of people have Int score of 13 or above. This roughly corresponds amount of people who have standard IQ score of 115 or 120, if I remember right. Possibly more if you assume people can assign scores of the average array as they please. This is further skewed by the fact that vast majority of people using these board fall into the category of wealthy western people whose whole culture as it is favors and trains Int and associated skills. (Nevermind that the hobby itself trains and favor Int to some extent...)

It wouldn't be a suprised if most board members actually were more intelligent than average. What about you.

Distribution of Int thus far:

10: 2
11: 2
12: 2
13: 1.25
14: 2.58
15: 3.75
16: 6.03
17: 1
18: 4.33

Apparently, internet forum posters are a secret subrace of super-geniuses.

snoopy13a
2010-09-11, 10:03 PM
Apparently, internet forum posters are a secret subrace of super-geniuses.

And halflings. I'll be honest, the hairy feet are a bit of a pain. Although, I save tons of money on my grocery bill. There is a definite advantage to a 500 calorie diet :smalltongue:

iDM
2010-09-11, 10:06 PM
Distribution of Int thus far:

10: 2
11: 2
12: 2
13: 1.25
14: 2.58
15: 3.75
16: 6.03
17: 1
18: 4.33

Apparently, internet forum posters are a secret subrace of super-geniuses.

For one reason: We are, for the most part, intellectuals, and as such, tend to exaggerate our mental capabilities far more than physical ones. We all want to be recognized as "smart" by our peers, because in doing so, they place us a little further above the rabble that cannot perform the simplest of mathematical equations.

***EDIT***
And I don't know about you, but I am a member of a secret subrace of super-geniuses. They call us, "Minnesotans".

Rayzin
2010-09-11, 10:25 PM
150+ is average, no offense. If you can bench at least 200 that's probably 11-13.

Me, I bench roughly 200+ (I haven't touched upon 300), but I'm probably afraid to lift 100 or higher over my head. :P


Reason i'd say my balance is terrible is because of dance. I can do freezes and some power moves pretty easily, but ones that require precise balance and carrying momentum are just so difficult. Took me a bit more than half a year to get a windmill with more than 3 spins down, but i got all the basic freezes down as soon as i learned them.

150 isn't my max weight, i do 2 sets of 10 and a set of 8. If i max out i can do more than 170 on three reps. I do also only weigh 155 pounds. Lifting 100+ over your head isn't hard at all, a deadlift to overhead press over 100 wouldn't be hard at all if you could bench 200+.

Recognize you can typically overhead lift a bit less than you can bench.
A str of 14 requires being able to lift overhead 117-175 lb, i can do that. A str of 15 requires being able to lift overhead 134-200 lb, i can also do that. Although not 200, 160 is what i can do. Maxed out its more.
Even if you consider it at worst i'd have a str of 13 and at best 15.

Also it wouldn't be a stretch to assume most people who peruse this forum are above average. In fact it would be quite expected.

Nefarion Xid
2010-09-12, 12:13 AM
I'm OK with people in this thread being better than average on most things. A 10-11 is average for the D&D world human... and that means every wheezing, nose picking, illiterate dirt farmer in the world. By virtue of being able to access and read this thread you're likely better educated and all around smarter than the average person in the world... and significantly more intelligent than average in most fantasy worlds.

Edit: Dead lift is the easiest way to compare your strength to the lifting table in the PHB (3.5). I did 515, but that's been a while... miiight need to get warmed up before I try that now. That's worth a 17 according to the PHB.

It's not the herculean strength that makes a Fighter a Fighter... it's the dedication to martial arts and the mindset to walk into monster infested ruins.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-12, 04:58 AM
Distribution of Int thus far:

Apparently, internet forum posters are a secret subrace of super-geniuses.

Pff. 16 int is hardly super-genius. Rather, it is the top 4.6 percent of the population. That means one-in-twenty people. Anyone who has an academic degree had better be in the top 4.6 percent of the country.

Chrono22
2010-09-12, 05:35 AM
I don't know, dead lift seems like it isn't a good analogue to character strength. Consider- a level 1 character can lift his max load over his head repeatedly without becoming fatigued.
On a basic level, D&D is just terrible at representing real people accurately. It either overestimates or underestimates our abilities (usually the latter). And many important features are overlooked because they are not a consideration of the system- it exists to facilitate adventuring-type acts of heroism and glory, some simple intrigue, and a simple skill-action resolution system. The system itself is just a narrative tool to advance a communal game/story, and only extends itself far enough to allow the player to suspend his disbelief. It is not realistic for realism's sake, which is why these kinds of comparisons don't work under even simple scrutiny. I'm not saying this is necessarily a flaw, but trying to use D&D to create a realistic world makes about as much sense as trying to build a house with a freshly caught tuna.

Morph Bark
2010-09-12, 06:47 AM
And halflings. I'll be honest, the hairy feet are a bit of a pain. Although, I save tons of money on my grocery bill. There is a definite advantage to a 500 calorie diet :smalltongue:

If hairy feet wouldst maketh the halfling, I'd be a Tallfellow. But I doubt so (plus my feet aren't Tolkien-grade hairy).


Edit: Never mind. After reading further, it appears nearly everyone has great int.

With great Int comes great statistics. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-12, 06:48 AM
Pff. 16 int is hardly super-genius. Rather, it is the top 4.6 percent of the population. That means one-in-twenty people. Anyone who has an academic degree had better be in the top 4.6 percent of the country.

Er, over a third of americans have college degrees.

4.6 < 33

Morph Bark
2010-09-12, 06:50 AM
Er, over a third of americans have college degrees.

4.6 < 33

That's only looking at America though. In China, if you were to only look at Academic degrees, it'd be much lower. But seriously, I doubt that that is a very reliable be-all end-all way of determining Int, especially in the third world.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-12, 07:19 AM
Er, over a third of americans have college degrees
That's because the term "acedemic degree" has a different meaning in other parts of the world.

The point still stands: if you pick a level of high education that more-or-less corresponds to four percent of the population, then you can reasonably conclude that the people who've succesfully completed that have a 16+ intelligence. (This does not mean that anyone who's not done this education has a lower int, of course).

Heck, take Mensa membership; the requirement for joining Mensa is getting the top 2% of an IQ test, so in D&D terms, the prerequisite for Mensa is having a 17+ int.

Yes, I know that IQ tests are not a good measure of actual mental capacity; but then, neither are Int scores.

Ricky S
2010-09-12, 07:22 AM
Str 13 (Pretty strong workout everyday, match the carry capacity table)
Dex 10 (Nothing special)
Con 10 (Nothing Special)
Int 16 (IQ of 135)
Wis 14 (Very insightful. Often people say I am far beyond my years)
Cha 9 (Attractive but socially reclusive)

I am pretty sure I am NE. All the online quizzes have come up as such. They also say that I am most likely to be a fighter and or rogue. It we are going by d20 modern then I am an intelligient character.

prufock
2010-09-12, 11:21 AM
I don't know, dead lift seems like it isn't a good analogue to character strength. Consider- a level 1 character can lift his max load over his head repeatedly without becoming fatigued.

This is a good point. Dead lifts are definitely fatiguing! Based on this, I think I'll lower my proposed strength score to a more reasonable 11.

Jallorn
2010-09-12, 11:49 AM
Thanks for being the voice of reason. If Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking had 18 or 19 Int (as 5th-level Experts), and everyone in here actually has the intelligence they say they have, GiTP seems to be full of geniuses.

Edit: Just to cite my sources (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6V5T-45XSMNG-33-1&_cdi=5795&_user=1022551&_pii=0001691881900056&_origin=search&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F1981&_sk=999529997&view=c&wchp=dGLzVtz-zSkzS&md5=7a56554c85454c2ba5e07f5b7ac86d50&ie=/sdarticle.pdf)... Svenson (1980) Are we all less risky and more skillful than our fellow drivers?, Acta Psychologica Vol. 47, pp. 143-148

I'd like to add to this conversation that Einstein himself admitted that genius was more hard work than a natural proficiency. I tend to agree, as despite my Int, I tend to do no better than mid to low Bs in school with minimal effort, and I could probably get As with about an average amount of effort.

The Int score itself is less important than we give it credit for being.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-12, 12:33 PM
Thanks for being the voice of reason. If Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking had 18 or 19 Int
You're missing the point here...

...which is that the 3-18 system lacks granularity. The top "tier", an 18 int, is about 0.5 percent of the population. Given that we have approx 6.800.000.000 people on this planet, that means that there are thirty-one million people with an 18 intelligence.

That this group of 31.000.000 people happens to contain both Stephen Hawking and a handful of people in this thread doesn't mean that those people here are as smart as Hawking.

Hawking and Einstein have fifteen to twenty levels in Physicist to get all the skill points they need. That makes a much bigger difference.

The Big Dice
2010-09-12, 01:23 PM
Pff. 16 int is hardly super-genius. Rather, it is the top 4.6 percent of the population. That means one-in-twenty people. Anyone who has an academic degree had better be in the top 4.6 percent of the country.

Passing any academic qualification isn't a mark of genius. It's a mark of being able to study, to do assignments and to pass exminations.

Einstein wasn't a genius because he could do the math behind Special and General Relativity. He was a genius because he sat on a train and thought "What would I see if I was moving away from that clock at the speed of light?" And be able to back up his conclusions with math that could be verified by other people with a similar level of education.

Genius is a word that gets bandied around a lot these days, but really there are very few actual geniuses in a generation.

And just to be different, here I am in the form of a GURPS character. Where it turns out I am exactly average, being worth a mere 25 points.

Me! 25 points

ST: 10 [0] IQ: 12 [20]
DX: 11 [10] HT: 9 [-10]
Speed: 5.00
Move: 5
Dodge: 5

Advantages
Charisma +1 [5]; Luck [15]; Strong Will +2 [8].

Disadvantages
Absent-Mindedness [-15]; Bad Sight (Correctable) [-10]; Unfit [-5].

Skills
Games (Roleplaying)-12 [1]; Writing-10 [½]; Musical Notation-11 [½]; Driving/TL7 (Automobile)-10 [1]; Musical Instrument (Guitar)-12 [4].

I figure I'm no stronger than average, but a little smarter and a tiny bit more co-ordinated. But I'm also not in the best of health. Hence the low HT score and the Unfit disadvantage. I also wear glasses, and have been know to forget to take my dice to game sessions before now.

As for the rest, I'm lucky to be alive after what I've been through this year and I've given up smoking cold turkey (coming up on 3 months ago now).

Skills are the things I do most or get the most fun out of. I could probably have cheesed another 15 points out of the game system to massage my ego a little, but I thought I should be honest rather than put myself on a pedestal.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-12, 01:30 PM
Passing any academic qualification isn't a mark of genius.
I completely agree. I just would like to point out that having a 16 or 18 "int" score isn't a mark of genius either. Even if we assert that every genius has an 18 int, it does not follow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent) that everyone with 18 int is therefore a genius.

And yeah, GURPS does a better job of statting out real-world people than D&D does.

Deity
2010-09-12, 01:38 PM
According to various internet tests and my own interpretation:

STR 13 - I'm pretty damn strong. Frequently lift or move things others have difficulty with, but by no means am I strong enough to warrant a higher score.
DEX 10 - I've got decent coordination and balance, but mediocre agility and finger dexterity.
CON 15 - I train long distance running and I've taken several injuries others were horrified by and shrugged them off.
INT 17 - According to several standardized tests I am in the top 2% in regards to intellect
WIS 14/8 - Depends on how you interpret wisdom. I'm very aware of my surroundings, and read people well, but lack common sense and willpower.
CHA 10 -Nothing to right home about, but not detrimentally low.


I view myself along the lines of

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 15
INT 17
WIS 8
CHA 10

A few levels in expert, a few in warrior (years of martial arts, and a youth army cadet program), 6th level at the very best.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 01:48 PM
Str 11-12. Not the best at sheer lifting but I can out grapple guys 50 pounds heavier than me, lift more than 200 pounds off the ground and stagger about with it (which puts me above 10 Str) and can crawl fairly quickly with a 150 pound guy on my back trying to hold me down.
Dex 12-13. My balance and reflexes are better than most people I know and I'm impossible to grab, apparently.
Con 16. I can jog a marathon, or could until my leg got hurt (now it starts hurting a few miles in). I have better endurance than anyone else I know, and apparently I'm overflowing with vital energy.
Int 16. I'm smart, I can analyze things, and when I bother to study I get good grades, when I don't I'm still doing as well as my friends putting several hours a day into it.
Wis 14. I'm aware, and able to read/predict people's actions fairly well.
Cha 6-8. I'm asocial, led a sheltered life and never learned how to socialize properly, and just generally unlikable.

Also according to internet tests all of these stats are low (14 Str, Dex, 15 Con, 16 Int, 14 Wis, 10 or 12 Cha it's been a while) and I'm a multiclassed barbarian/ranger.

snoopy13a
2010-09-12, 01:58 PM
...which is that the 3-18 system lacks granularity. The top "tier", an 18 int, is about 0.5 percent of the population. Given that we have approx 6.800.000.000 people on this planet, that means that there are thirty-one million people with an 18 intelligence.

That this group of 31.000.000 people happens to contain both Stephen Hawking and a handful of people in this thread doesn't mean that those people here are as smart as Hawking.



It depends on one's interpretations of things. Some people, like yourself, estimate based on the percentile of a 3d6 roll. Others like the 10*IQ formula which places nearly all people between a 7 and 13 Intelligence score.

Interestingly, the 3d6 percentile method (which I also favor) leads to some logical inferences for DnD NPCs. Assuming that a wizard would only take the best and brightest for his or her pupil then one must assume that if 1 out of 150 people are wizards that practically every NPC wizard is of 16, 17 or 18 intelligence.

For example, suppose that there are 67 wizards in a small city of 10,000.

Of the 10,000 people there are:
18 Int- 46 people
17 Int - 138 people
16 Int - 277 people

Let's also suppose that only about 1/4 of those smart enough to become a wizard do so (others may become merchants, lawyers, other adventuring classes, or may be lazy aristocrats. Plus you'll have uneducated peasants/poor folk who never got a decent opportunity).

So, around 11 of the 18 Int people become wizards
Around 34 of the 17 Int people become wizards
And 69 of the 16 Int people want to become wizards. However, only about 22 of these are chosen as apprentices.

Thus, assuming:
1) A bell curve Intelligence distribution
2) One wizard for every 150 people
3) Wizards choosing apprentices strictly on Intelligence (and not due to politics, economic reasons or nepotism)
4) The wizard career path appealing to roughly 25% of highly intelligent people

Then, a random low level NPC wizard would have a roughly
16% chance of 18 intelligence
51% chance of 17 intelligence
33% chance of 16 intelligence

Obviously, these are only ballpark figures because of the major assumptions made. However, there really should not be 14 Intelligence wizards running around.

Wonton
2010-09-12, 02:25 PM
To everyone saying "I have an education, clearly that means I have 18 Int!"... :smallannoyed:

Education gives you ranks in Knowledge skills. More realistically, the process of earning a degree gets you a level in Expert, allowing you to put 5 ranks into one or two knowledge skills.

Inherent ability scores are inherent for a reason - you're born with them. "We live in the first world in the 21st century, obviously we have higher Int than medieval peasants!"

No.

You're born with an Intelligence score and unless you achieve four class levels, you're stuck with it. The percentage of people with 18 Int in the third world is the same as here. Like Einstein said (someone above me has the quote), being a genius is mostly hard work. That means ranks in Knowledge skills, and for the very dedicated, the Skill Focus feat.

Gralamin
2010-09-12, 02:29 PM
Inherent ability scores are inherent for a reason - you're born with them. "We live in the first world in the 21st century, obviously we have higher Int than medieval peasants!"


Int is related directly to IQ. We have a higher IQ then medieval peasants, because IQ is based on certain types of thinking - it isn't a very accurate test, and it rewards modern day thinking styles.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 02:34 PM
Int is related directly to IQ. We have a higher IQ then medieval peasants, because IQ is based on certain types of thinking - it isn't a very accurate test, and it rewards modern day thinking styles.

Actually the closest thing to Int being directly related to IQ was in one Dragon Magazine Sage Advice where the Sage said: It isn't but IF for some reason you feel that it is necessary to correlate the two Int x 10 is IQ.

This had other disclaimers on how inaccurate this was and how Int and IQ are not really connected in any way, and how IQ tests are still contested on whether they provide any true measure of intelligence.

valadil
2010-09-12, 02:37 PM
150 isn't my max weight, i do 2 sets of 10 and a set of 8. If i max out i can do more than 170 on three reps. I do also only weigh 155 pounds. Lifting 100+ over your head isn't hard at all, a deadlift to overhead press over 100 wouldn't be hard at all if you could bench 200+.


Disagreed. I bench 225. I've done 245. I can't get the bar overhead at 135. Actually I haven't tried just pressing it straight up, but I try to swing it from deadlift to chest height, and it just doesn't happen.

Here's the problem with using lifts as benchmarks for Str cores. Lifting is a skill. It's based in technique rather than raw power. How much you can press in the gym is a measure of your skill plus your attribute. Those of us who spend time in the gym have acquired several skill ranks, but probably haven't gained 4 levels in the gym and put the stat bump into Str.

Back to my case, I spend a lot of time benching. I don't spend a lot of time doing anything over my head or C&J. Just haven't learned them yet. To represent this you'd have to break the lifting skill down further into different types of lifts, which probably have synergy with each other. No RPG is ever going to go into that much detail for weightlifting (although they would break weapon groups down in this manner, so you can see how those mechanics are analogous).

truekender
2010-09-12, 03:58 PM
I see a lot of these ridiculously high stats to be, well, ridiculous. Haha, I doubt anyone here has an intelligence of 16 or higher - saying that human capacity is 18. I'd be giving the 18s out to Marilyn Vos Savant and others with IQs over 260.

Sean Gee
Str 10 (I'm possibly a little stronger than avergae, but not enough to be over a 10 I'd think)
Dex 12 (I'm pretty flexible and double jointed in various places, I'm also pretty fast and agile)
Con 9 (I get sick sometimes, maybe slightly more than others)
Int 12 (I have an IQ of 144 with a standford binet) edit: I just saw that these are not related, but if they were it'd be IQ/10 so I guess I have a 14 in Int
Wis 14 (People often comment on how intuitive I am, plus I'm an ENFP)
Cha 12 (I'm an ENFP, this should be obvious)

I might be an aristocrat level 1, I have a lot of experience with social networking and such.

Human Feat: Jack of All Trades (I naturally am just good at picking things up, like most ENFPs. We're good at a lot of things on the fly, but we tend to not master things)
Level 1: Skill Focus (Bluff) [I always convince people of the strangest things for the fun of it. I convinced a friend that I was both a virgin and a prostitute, but simply had a different idea of what sex was)

Skills: Speak Language 4 ranks (common*, french, japanese, lao), Bluff +8, Sense Motive +7 (I get called a lie detector all the time), Diplomacy +5 (ENFP + conflict resolution training, etc), Knowledge (Academics) +6

Shademan
2010-09-12, 04:04 PM
STR: 9
DEX: 12
CON: 11
WIS: 10
INT: 8
CHA: 12

feat: skill focus art

Jallorn
2010-09-12, 04:20 PM
You're missing the point here...

...which is that the 3-18 system lacks granularity. The top "tier", an 18 int, is about 0.5 percent of the population. Given that we have approx 6.800.000.000 people on this planet, that means that there are thirty-one million people with an 18 intelligence.

That this group of 31.000.000 people happens to contain both Stephen Hawking and a handful of people in this thread doesn't mean that those people here are as smart as Hawking.

Hawking and Einstein have fifteen to twenty levels in Physicist to get all the skill points they need. That makes a much bigger difference.

Actually, Einstein is only about level 5 (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html).

big teej
2010-09-12, 04:32 PM
I have a tendency to ramble. so

assuming the stats are meant to reflect the real world, and not a 'dnd' representation, I would give myself the following

Lawful Good, level 1 knight

Strength: 13
Dexterity: 10
constitution: 16
Intelligence: 13
wisdom: 13
Charisma: 14

assuming a representation of a reasonable stat block for a dnd game

Lawful Good, Level 1 Knight
Strength: 15
Dexterity: 10
constitution: 18
Intelligence: 15
Wisdom: 15
Charisma: 16

(I seem to be the subject of a running discussion as to what counts for 18 constitution, I'm far more durable and healthy than my companions, I've even been accused of having 19-20 constitution, but I digress)

if somebody could direct me to a real world analogy to what base stats mean that'd be great

I know 10-11 is 'average' for a human, but I've always wondered, what does 18 in x stat really mean?

the only analogy/example I've ever been given is 18 strength by my first edition DM

"18 strength is equivilant to being able to military press 180 lbs, 10 times"

so if somebody could give me similar examples for the rest of the stats, that'd be fantastical

/ramble

Kurald Galain
2010-09-12, 04:40 PM
It depends on one's interpretations of things. Some people, like yourself, estimate based on the percentile of a 3d6 roll. Others like the 10*IQ formula which places nearly all people between a 7 and 13 Intelligence score.
That's a good point.

But in D&D rules, this spread is too little: the difference beween 80 and 120 IQ is substantial, whereas the difference between an 8 and a 12 int score is being 10% better at your related checks.


Actually, Einstein is only about level 5 (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html).
Yeah, I know people keep citing that article as fact, but it is nothing of the sort (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalResearchFailure). For instance, it calls Einstein a "little old man", whereas in fact he was neither when doing his best work. D'oh. It's quite funny how many glaring mistakes there are in that article, actually.

If you do the math on it, you need a lot of levels and skill ranks to show how much better Hawking is at physics than I am, and simultaneously show how much better I am at physics than the average high school kid.

Knaight
2010-09-12, 04:50 PM
Strength: 9 Based on lifting, though its odd due to my possession of strength focused in the legs.
Dexterity: 8 I would place my reflexes as somewhat below average, and I'm not that quick.
Constitution: 8 Chronic Illness yay!
Intelligence: 13 I can pull of a bunch of honors classes without much in the way of studying and read quite a bit. Furthermore, most writing level indicators put me as older and more practiced than I actually am when I write academically.
Wisdom: 10 Nothing of note.
Charisma: 10 Nothing of note.

Wonton
2010-09-12, 05:26 PM
Yeah, I know people keep citing that article as fact, but it is nothing of the sort (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalResearchFailure).

Yeah, I know people keep citing tvtropes as a clever rebuttal to everything, but it is nothing of the sort.

That article certainly isn't fact, but it definitely provides some very valid points. A 5th-level Einstein has +15 in Knowledge (Physics). The average teenager just starting to learn physics has +0. Someone with, say, a BSc in Physics might have a +2 Int bonus, and 5 ranks for a +7. Huge difference there.

Da Beast
2010-09-12, 07:57 PM
Using Mutants and Masterminds 2nd ed
PL 1, 33 power points.
Str 8-10 I have a pretty solid build and could probably be strong if I put work into it, but I never work out so average to below average.
Dex 12-14 I have great reflexes and balance and acrobatics come naturally to me
Con 10? Not really sure about this one. I have very mild asthma but don't seam to me any tougher or more fragile than others around me. I don't have the greatest endurance, but that's because I get almost no exercise.
Int 15-17 this puts me in the range of well above average to gifted. My IQ has been tested at around 130 which isn't genius level but is well above average. I tend to make others around me feel stupid without really trying.
Wis 10-? I've always felt that wisdom is the hardest attribute to quantify and I'm not really sure what to put for this one. Sometimes my memory seems incredible, other times I forget things moments after I hear them. I think I have fairly good intuition and am good at problem solving, but I'm not sure how much of the should be intelligence instead of wisdom. I also have a bad habit of overlooking one or two important details in a complex situation.
Cha 10 I have a good sense of humor, I'm very persuasive when I want to be and people who get to know me usually like me; but I'm shy and tend to blend into the background. Maybe this should be an 8.
Taking the averages will say this is 8 points.

Skills (ranks only)
Acrobatics 3, Bluff 4, Climb 2, Computer 1, Craft: artistic 2, Diplomacy 3, Escape artist 2, Handle Animal 1, Knowledge: Current Events 2, K: Popular Culture 2, K: Theology and Philosophy 2, Sense Motive 2, Stealth 4, Survival 2, Swim 4. 9 points

Feats
All out attack, Grappling Finesse, Luck, Ambidexterity, Equipment, Master Plan, Jack-of-All-Trades, Taunt. 9 points

Combat
Attack +1 Very limited martial arts training
Defense +2 I have pretty good reflexes and seam to have amazing luck when it comes to avoiding damage. 6 points.

Powers
Strike 1 Very limited martial arts training. 1 point.

If I did live in a DnD world I think I'd go for psychic rogue.


Thanks for being the voice of reason. If Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking had 18 or 19 Int (as 5th-level Experts), and everyone in here actually has the intelligence they say they have, GiTP seems to be full of geniuses.

This really is a problem with the system being a poor model for reality. In MnM, a power level 2 character can have an ability score of 24, which is described as the peek of human achievement. MnM also has nothing forcing higher level characters to be stronger/tougher/whatever than anyone else since a higher power level just lets you have higher bonuses with no obligation to buy your abilities up to those caps. Einstein could be a power level 10 character with 15 ranks in Knowledge: Physics (the cap on skill ranks for PL 10 characters) but still have a lower defense score than my assumed defense of 2. That being said, I would agree that most people probably overestimate their abilities. If your abilities average out to 13 or higher, you're probably deluding yourself.


***EDIT***
And I don't know about you, but I am a member of a secret subrace of super-geniuses. They call us, "Minnesotans".

*Hi fives iDM*

Onlyhestands
2010-09-12, 08:18 PM
Str 10: I have a strong lower body, but slightly below average upper body. I started working out about a year ago, then I wold have put my strength at about 7 or so.
Dex 8: I have a good sense of balance, but my hand-eye coordination is below average. I am about of an average flexibility.
Con 14: I hike, run, and bike almost everyday. I outpace/outdistance most people when I'm running.
Int 14: I don't know my Iq but I have a good memory, read extremely quickly, and college is a cakewalk for me.
Wis 12: I am pretty clever, and usually make good decisions. I'm not putting this higher because sometimes I do make really bad decisions, or something basic escapes me.
Cha 8: I am relatively attractive, and am hygienic, but I am somewhat socially awkward, and/or "too quiet". However, I would say that I have greatly improved this over the last couple of years. However, I am pretty persuasive and can lead a group pretty well.

darkpuppy
2010-09-12, 09:29 PM
Hrm. Although I agree GURPS is much better for statting human beings, I'm gonna stick with DnD 3.5 here...

STR: No more than a 12, most likely an 11. I have a moderately strong lower body from walking a lot, and a slightly well developed upper body, but I'm pretty average overall.

DEX: 10. While I have a fair sense of balance and all that, dexterity also measures manual dexterity, which, except in very specialised situations, I'm not great at. No knifey-knifey for me!

CON: 12. I can walk most people I know into the ground, and hold my breath for a fair amount, but I also have a bad immune system, so that knocks a point or two off.

INT: 13, maybe pushing 14. I'm above average, I'll agree, but I'm no Einstein.

WIS: 9, maybe a 10. I am not the most perceptive of people, and on top of that, I often have a lack of common sense.

CHA: 9 again, definitely. Some people think I'm charming and gentlemanly, but the fact is, I'm terribly shy in most situations, when I do talk it's too much, and I have to work really hard to avoid inappropriate commentary. I also rant a fair bit, and can be a "gloomy gus".

Jeff the Green
2010-09-13, 12:03 AM
But in D&D rules, this spread is too little: the difference beween 80 and 120 IQ is substantial, whereas the difference between an 8 and a 12 int score is being 10% better at your related checks.

There's also the fact that if 18 INT = 180 IQ, you'd have almost no 1st level people with that high a score. 180 IQ is 80/15 = 5.3 standard deviations from the mean, which means that less than 0.00005% (1 in 20,000) have it. (Actually, it's probably far less. My z-table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_table) just doesn't go that high.) 1 out of every 216 people have 18 Int. Even if you assume that 3d6 is higher than the average population (which you probably shouldn't, since the standard array is 3d6), that's a huge difference.


What does it mean to have Decipher Script in modern America?

Cryptography training?
The Ability to read left handed Doctor's Handwriting, or student chickenscratch?
Ability to make sense of written Spanish, French, etc. without actually knowing the languages?
The ability to do newspaper language puzzles well?
The ability to read written netspeak or other written sorts of jargon well?
The ability to read the root and influential languages of English well, like German, old English, Latin, etc., without being fluent in them?

Yes, no, yes, depends, no, yes:

A character can decipher writing in an ancient language or in code, or interpret the meaning of an incomplete text.
In my case (since I'm the only one who gave themselves ranks), I've spent a bunch of time learning to decipher ancient Roman texts even when I don't know all the words or there are obscure abbreviations. I'd also say that if you've learned to read academic papers, interpret code to figure out what a computer program does, or something similar, you have ranks. But that's really just my opinion--the rules aren't super detailed.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-13, 12:06 AM
Int is related directly to IQ. We have a higher IQ then medieval peasants, because IQ is based on certain types of thinking - it isn't a very accurate test, and it rewards modern day thinking styles.

So, by your logic, the more one thinks like a modern human, the better you are at wizardry?

Er, what?

imp_fireball
2010-09-13, 12:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm Level 8 Geek. My powers are:

•At will: Recite Generic Trivia
•At will: Sarcastic Remark
•Encounter: Craft Forum Post
•Encounter: Cunning Strategy
•Encounter: Recite Obscure Trivia
•Daily: Craft Computer Program
•Daily: Read Entire Book
•Utility: Internet Search
•Utility: Remember Song Lyrics

So realistically, level 1 commoner with 'plan', above average Int (for recollection of facts and common articles, speed reading, etc.), one or more ranks in craft (software).

Those other things aren't good enough to offer any mechanical benefits. :smallbiggrin:


So, by your logic, the more one thinks like a modern human, the better you are at wizardry?

Er, what?

No, Int is characterized by memory and the ability to learn. So retaining and acquiring information.

Also, precision thinking. So thinking about precise application, which is why a skill like craft requires Int (precise knowledge of what goes where, what do I need, how do I make this thing work/make it look good). Recognizing what things are (which largely applies to search skill; you can recognize something and recall what it is at a glance - and thus time is saved in looking elsewhere).

Also applies to language, because vocabulary is information as is proper word use, spelling and grammar.



What's decipher script?

Cryptography training?
The Ability to read left handed Doctor's Handwriting, or student chickenscratch?
Ability to make sense of written Spanish, French, etc. without actually knowing the languages?
The ability to do newspaper language puzzles well?
The ability to read written netspeak or other written sorts of jargon well?
The ability to read the root and influential languages of English well, like German, old English, Latin, etc., without being fluent in them?

I'd say only the first one. The others are all a property of observation and knowledge of languages. Knowledge of languages (as well as quickly realizing what parts of languages mean through swift study) is Int while observation is Wis.

Finally, making out chickenscratch and too-fancy handwriting should relate to forgery. If you can forge those things, you can probably make them out fairly quickly.


Wis 10-? I've always felt that wisdom is the hardest attribute to quantify and I'm not really sure what to put for this one. Sometimes my memory seems incredible, other times I forget things moments after I hear them. I think I have fairly good intuition and am good at problem solving, but I'm not sure how much of the should be intelligence instead of wisdom. I also have a bad habit of overlooking one or two important details in a complex situation.


Memory is largely Int. The ability to exert memory (recall something when you want to rather than having to wait for it to 'flow') might be Wis though considering wis covers any amount of self control and mental exertion reflected by the brain (also why Will saves depend on wis, make sense?).

Being absent minded doesn't mean you have low Wis - it's just a flaw or a personality trait.

If you tend to be highly aware of what others think of you and practice a lot of self reflection and perhaps have a keen idea of what needs to be done to succeed - that could all be Wis.


So, by your logic, the more one thinks like a modern human, the better you are at wizardry?

Er, what?

Yah, no. From a social prespective, it's 'the more sane you are'. Having a good education doesn't mean high Int, nor does being mature on a social level (arguable for other kinds of maturity, like self control, discipline and work ethic) mean high Wis.

Maybe a person with high Wis who has no work ethic is just willingly lazy (instead of, 'I have actual problems with getting down to work and study habits'). If they have poor self control, maybe they also have low self esteem. The human mind is a complex thing, so mental scores don't lock people into certain personalities, but they do often help you succeed.


CHA: 9 again, definitely. Some people think I'm charming and gentlemanly, but the fact is, I'm terribly shy in most situations, when I do talk it's too much, and I have to work really hard to avoid inappropriate commentary. I also rant a fair bit, and can be a "gloomy gus".

It also depends on whether or not people are showing signs that they want to listen to your rants. If you find yourself, ie., sounding angry and frustrated when you don't really mean to sound that way, that could also reflect lower Cha.

Shyness or good social skills don't reflect charisma, and instead just personality traits, imo (both with their advantages/disadvantages; just like physical attractiveness). But making little or no conscious effort to make an impression will often leave a bad image no matter your charisma (which is why 'races of stone' probably suggested that beer used in the goliath drinking game lowered charisma).


A character can decipher writing in an ancient language or in code, or interpret the meaning of an incomplete text.

Well, the SRD says that because ancient languages are typically deprecated as well as often being simpler and more primitive (this is based largely off egyptian heiroglyphs when writing was conveyed largely in adopted pictures to give general ideas rather then an actual intended message). If they aren't in use, they can't be conventionally learned and studied.

So it takes an actual decipher script check to figure them out and is probably just like figuring out any other encryption.

Gralamin
2010-09-13, 01:04 AM
Actually the closest thing to Int being directly related to IQ was in one Dragon Magazine Sage Advice where the Sage said: It isn't but IF for some reason you feel that it is necessary to correlate the two Int x 10 is IQ.

This had other disclaimers on how inaccurate this was and how Int and IQ are not really connected in any way, and how IQ tests are still contested on whether they provide any true measure of intelligence.

Actually, the Official 3.5 Game FAQ (Which is not RAW, but for some questions, like this one, is the only "Official" source) states:

Ten points of IQ per point of Intelligence is a good rule of
thumb, so your example character has an IQ of about 30. How
others perceive and treat the example character depends on
social conditions in the campaign. Most cultures in a D&D
world are pretty tolerant—they have to be just so they can get
along in a place that contains the wide variety of creatures that
inhabit most D&D worlds. In such cultures, terms such as
“dull” and “slow” probably don’t get much use, at least in
respect to a person’s mental capacity. When your own
Intelligence is about average (10) you’re “slow” compared to a
dragon, beholder, mind flayer, or other creature that might live
right next door or lurk beyond the next valley. Still, elitism and
a sense of superiority can exist just about anywhere.

There are no such disclaimers at all.


So, by your logic, the more one thinks like a modern human, the better you are at wizardry?

Er, what?

The Logic is consistent with actually studies on the IQ test. Its a problem with how the Game World is represented, or mapped to Reality. That is, my logic isn't in error, D&D's is.

Talakeal
2010-09-13, 01:58 AM
Every time one of these threads comes up I notice that almost everyone on the forum is of above average intelligence with the majority being certified geniuses. It is kind of funny.

fortesama
2010-09-13, 02:16 AM
Considering the kind of crowd that gathers here, and considering that i'm seeing a lot of thought exercises in this board, I would imagine that's the usual result.

in any case, 3.5 format for me.

L1 Human Expert

Str 12 (i've been working out lately and it's showing)
Dex 14 (nimble hands, can bend myself in fun positions... don't think about it too much)
Con 9 (yep i'm a sickly boy)
Int 14 (according to my friends, they estimated mine at 15)
Wis 12
Cha 9 (socially awkward with a thing for sardonic commentary)

Mikeavelli
2010-09-13, 02:22 AM
Every time one of these threads comes up I notice that almost everyone on the forum is of above average intelligence with the majority being certified geniuses. It is kind of funny.

Selection Bias.

I'm an Engineering Student, I remember seeing one other in this thread already, probably more. A good portion of us are otherwise studying science or math related subjects, and doing well in them.

Intelligence is exactly the sort of stat that people in said majors are going to favor. In the D&D world, we'd all be going off to Wizard college and, naturally, we'd have the stats to back it up.

I'd liken the mental capacity to cast a first level spell as somewhat similar to the mental capacity needed to do calculus in your head. Difficult, seemingly impossible for a large portion of the population, but doable.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-13, 05:04 AM
There's also the fact that if 18 INT = 180 IQ, you'd have almost no 1st level people with that high a score.
There's also the fact that 180 IQ tends not to be measurable by IQ tests, in that it is literally "off the scale".

That is, suppose we have an IQ test with 50 questions, then there will be a number of people who get all of them right. This test will then not be able to tell which of these people has a higher IQ, just that all of them have at least a certain minimum IQ.

The notion that "int score x 10 = IQ" is untenable, in that it gives meaningless values for characters with high and low IQ, and that it creates a huge difference between the spread of attribute scores (3d6) and the spread of IQ scores (Wechsler's normal distribution).

So this kind of thread ends up more being about what "intelligence" and "statistics" mean in pop culture, than about what they mean in psychology. Both Tv Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailTheIQTest) and Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ) offer useful insights to this phenomenon.

nolispe
2010-09-13, 05:19 AM
Str ~ 10ish (Totally normal there)
Dex ~ 6ish (My balance is fine. Apart from that, my hand eye coordination is so shot that it really isn't funny.)
Con ~ 14-16(Really depends on how big you think the differences are. I just don't get sick, and tend to heal insanely fast. A few weeks ago, I managed to get several gorse needles through the palm of my hand, that is, literally through. My hand was completely back to normal inside of a week.)
Int ~ 12-14 (By tests, I am absolutely amazing at some areas (verbal), but significantly less (albiet still in the top 1%) in others.)
Wis ~ 8-10 (really depends on how you quantifiy the various things that make it up. Abysmal sight/hearing, high sense motive, not sure about others.)
Cha ~ 8-14 (Depends on how you rank them, again. If it is just making others willingly do what you want, think what you want, etc, then esially in the far upper segments. People's minds are amazingly easy to stuff with.)

Tytalus
2010-09-13, 06:38 AM
Because of this, the inability of people to accurately rate themselves, I'm convinced that these efforts are futile. They pop up every now and then, and it's more amusing to look at them from a "who is most egotistical" perspective. Im sure someone will come in here with ludicrous stats soon enough.

Edit: Never mind. After reading further, it appears nearly everyone has great int.

I've seen well over a dozen of these rate-yourself threads, and intelligence is by far the most interesting stat, IMHO - most people I've seen post place themselves comfortably in the 15+ range, oftentimes with ludicrous (IMHO) justifications, such as "I can read fast", "school is easy for me", "my friends say so", or "I did this online IQ test...".

At any rate, it seems that D&D players have a healthy self-image when it comes to their mental abilities.


You're missing the point here...

...which is that the 3-18 system lacks granularity. The top "tier", an 18 int, is about 0.5 percent of the population. Given that we have approx 6.800.000.000 people on this planet, that means that there are thirty-one million people with an 18 intelligence.

Most people never amount to become adventurers. Those remain NPC commoners or experts, for which the elite array, with max 15 int. seems to be much more appropriate. Out of the truly exceptional people (PCs) we have very, very few that actually have an 18 int.

But even if we go by 3D6 for everyone, posters in these rating threads still seem to be far, far above the general average, assuming their stats are correct. Of course, it could be because roleplayers / people drawn to these threads are actually a lot more intelligent than the rest of the population, but I doubt that somewhat.



The point still stands: if you pick a level of high education that more-or-less corresponds to four percent of the population, then you can reasonably conclude that the people who've succesfully completed that have a 16+ intelligence. (This does not mean that anyone who's not done this education has a lower int, of course).

I wonder if that's a good measure at all. Obtaining degrees is more often than not as much a question of persistence as it is of intelligence.

If we do go by it, though, we can't discount those who might have high intelligence but haven't had the opportunity (i.e., being too young) or desire to achieve such a degree, as you pointed out yourself. Yet 1% of Americans have a research-based doctorate degree (US Census 2000), which is already twice the percentage of PCs with an 18 int. Now add in all those geniuses who don't have such a degree, and it becomes very clear: degrees alone say very little about intelligence, as (considerably) more than half the PhDs would have to have less than 18 int.

The Big Dice
2010-09-13, 08:18 AM
Memory is largely Int. The ability to exert memory (recall something when you want to rather than having to wait for it to 'flow') might be Wis though considering wis covers any amount of self control and mental exertion reflected by the brain (also why Will saves depend on wis, make sense?).
Which would mean that a person living in an illiterate society should have a better Int and Wis (on average) than a modern person.

They couldn't write things down to remember them, they had to just remember them. And that's everything from what day it is today to birthdays for friends and family and survival related things like when to bring the crops in and how to tend to a sick sheep.

Take a moment and think about everything you read in a day. Everything from signs to labels, numbers on doors so you know you're at the right house. Everything. and then try and imagine having to do all that just by memory.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-13, 08:25 AM
Most people never amount to become adventurers. Those remain NPC commoners or experts, for which the elite array, with max 15 int. seems to be much more appropriate.
Sure, but on the other hand, the elite array statistically corresponds to 3d6, whereas most PCs are built on something better (like 4d6-drop-lowest, or a good point buy).


Of course, it could be because roleplayers / people drawn to these threads are actually a lot more intelligent than the rest of the population, but I doubt that somewhat.
I don't really doubt that. For example, 20% of world citizens are illiterate. 0% of people in this forum are illiterate. That is an obvious selection bias right from the start. A much larger set than this 20% lack the reading levels to be able to comprehend a D&D rulebook. I'd say that reading levels are a pretty good indication of intelligence, or at least, of how RPG players would play a character with a high (or low) int score.


Yet 1% of Americans have a research-based doctorate degree (US Census 2000), which is already twice the percentage of PCs with an 18 int.
I'm sure they do, but that's also a selection bias. Worldwide, this percentage is significantly less than 1%.

Tytalus
2010-09-13, 08:46 AM
I'm sure they do, but that's also a selection bias. Worldwide, this percentage is significantly less than 1%.

Unless we assume that US citizens are, on average, more intelligent than others (which is a dangerous thought), the point still stands.

Kiero
2010-09-13, 09:23 AM
Something like:
Str: 13-15
Dex: 14-16
Con: 14-16
Int: 12-14
Wis: 13-16
Cha: 13-15

megabyter5
2010-09-13, 10:13 AM
I've given thought to this before. What I came up with was something along these lines.

Human Bard 3
Str 11 (In school I carried around all my books in a heavy binder-thing instead of using a locker.)
Dex 12 (I play drums, so that seems about right.)
Con 10 (Overweight, lactose intolerant, but I don't get sick any more than other people.)
Int 14 (Anyone could tell this is my strongest ability.)
Wis 9 (Noticing things is hard...)
Cha 8 (I have Aspergers Syndrome, and as far as I know I can't cast any of my bard spells.)

Feats: Two unknown, Obtain Familiar [Cat].

His name is Saber, and he can't kill a first level commoner because he has no claw attacks.

big teej
2010-09-13, 10:42 AM
Everyone hail the carrying capacity tables (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) which lets you know exactly what your strength score is.

The qualifier is being able to lift the max weight in the table over your head, I wouldn't go by Bench Press, but rather the Clean and Jerk, which tends to be a bit lower of a number for most people.

but what about those of us who (do to injuries) are incapable of doing a clean with max weight? or, in my case, no weight at all? (torn tendons in my wrist)

I've observed myself to be stronger than most of my fellows just due to my sheer size, and I know I'll be even stronger by january because I'm doing a workout for football.

so how would/should I rate myself?

Setra
2010-09-13, 11:27 AM
I've seen well over a dozen of these rate-yourself threads, and intelligence is by far the most interesting stat, IMHO - most people I've seen post place themselves comfortably in the 15+ range, oftentimes with ludicrous (IMHO) justifications, such as "I can read fast", "school is easy for me", "my friends say so", or "I did this online IQ test...".

At any rate, it seems that D&D players have a healthy self-image when it comes to their mental abilities.
One would like to note though, that given the nature of the game ... it's not too surprising to think it would draw in more intelligent people. The way some people play it, it's practically "Math, the game".

That said.. as xkcd put it "The average internet use (who wants to share) has a 147 IQ and a 9 inch penis"

... Off topic rant: One thing that really irks me is.. people say IQ as if it's a magic number that makes them smarter than everyone else, most people just take some online test that invariably places them much higher than they actually are. I'll be honest, I sat down in a building and took a friggin test and got 126. According to my friend his is 150 something because an online survey told him so. When I took the same one it said mine was over 160.

Those tests don't work that way, it's not just a bunch of questions. Nor does the number really mean much. Someone can show up on an IQ test as a certified genius, then think something that you would consider horrendously stupid. For example, recent surveys have shown the average cultist is actually more intelligent than the average person.

Billy Bob may show up as 80 on an IQ test, but by golly if you show him your car it'll take him just 15 minutes to figure out what's wrong with it, that's something I couldn't do even though my score says I'm 'smarter'.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-13, 12:05 PM
Unless we assume that US citizens are, on average, more intelligent than others (which is a dangerous thought), the point still stands.
The point was, can we correlate education with intelligence? Or, more precisely, can we correlate how "educated" somebody plays their character, with that character's int score?

I think we can. Many players who have a character with very high int play him as knowledgeable, having had good teachers or schools (or whatever the equivalent in a fantasy world is), using big words, playing chess, and so forth. Conversely, many players who have a character with very low it play him as dumb, having had zero education, not understanding basic concepts of e.g. sociology or economy, and so forth.

So yes, how people stereotypically view top academical researchers does tend to correspond with how people stereotypically play high-int characters.

Note that "correlate" does not mean "everybody always does it precisely this way", of course.

Wonton
2010-09-13, 07:23 PM
I still don't understand your logic. If high Int represents being knowledgeable, what do the knowledge skills represent?

Kurald Galain
2010-09-13, 07:30 PM
I still don't understand your logic. If high Int represents being knowledgeable, what do the knowledge skills represent?
Attribute = general things, skill = specific things. After all, the attribute mod is added to all its relevant skills.

That also works for e.g. dexterity - a high attribute makes you reasonably good at all of jumping, sneaking, and so forth. A high skill makes you better at one particular thing.

So you could model e.g. a history graduate with a lot of ranks in knowledge (history), and a decent-to-good intelligence to represent he's also learned many other things, albeit not as deeply.

imp_fireball
2010-09-14, 10:49 AM
Ten points of IQ per point of Intelligence is a good rule of
thumb, so your example character has an IQ of about 30. How
others perceive and treat the example character depends on
social conditions in the campaign. Most cultures in a D&D
world are pretty tolerant—they have to be just so they can get
along in a place that contains the wide variety of creatures that
inhabit most D&D worlds. In such cultures, terms such as
“dull” and “slow” probably don’t get much use, at least in
respect to a person’s mental capacity. When your own
Intelligence is about average (10) you’re “slow” compared to a
dragon, beholder, mind flayer, or other creature that might live
right next door or lurk beyond the next valley. Still, elitism and
a sense of superiority can exist just about anywhere.

Sorry, but that's all just pretty stupid.

Totally limits sources of conflict.

If you have an IQ of 30, you can't even function in day to day life, let alone adventure. Seriously, you'd require special attention to even learn to talk and in the middle ages, schools didn't really exist except among the wealthy, making you seem even dumber.


Unless we assume that US citizens are, on average, more intelligent than others (which is a dangerous thought), the point still stands.

Americans are poorly educated (except in places like famous colleges and parts of New York or whatever... as stereotype holds). It's been an issue for quite some time.

Also, maybe you should say east asians have bonus Int or some crap, if you wanna think like that.


Many players who have a character with very high int play him as knowledgeable

That's due to lack of creativity. If he grew up among commoners, he might have to teach himself everything, severely limiting his education opportunities.

A better way to play those sorts of characters is ecclectic and apt rather then stereotypical intellectual. If you wanted to play the latter, they should have 'monocle and pipe' as prerequisite.

Of course, wizards are usually assumed to go to school, so it's a bit hard to avoid intellectualism for them.


"The average internet use (who wants to share) has a 147 IQ and a 9 inch penis"


You mean, '9 inch epeen', 'typical or below average penis length'?


One thing that really irks me is.. people say IQ as if it's a magic number that makes them smarter than everyone else, most people just take some online test that invariably places them much higher than they actually are. I'll be honest, I sat down in a building and took a friggin test and got 126. According to my friend his is 150 something because an online survey told him so. When I took the same one it said mine was over 160.

Those tests don't work that way, it's not just a bunch of questions. Nor does the number really mean much. Someone can show up on an IQ test as a certified genius, then think something that you would consider horrendously stupid. For example, recent surveys have shown the average cultist is actually more intelligent than the average person.

Billy Bob may show up as 80 on an IQ test, but by golly if you show him your car it'll take him just 15 minutes to figure out what's wrong with it, that's something I couldn't do even though my score says I'm 'smarter'.

Yah I think ego is a major detractor from most incentive.

And there's many different intelligences - IQ reflects something like 'mental age' (whatever the heck that is).

Also, most online IQ tests are low quality and thus completely innaccurate.