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Tetsubo 57
2010-09-11, 07:08 AM
I am currently reading the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide. It lists a number of mundane items. One of which is a magnet. It describes using said magnet to pick up steel, mithril and adamantine. I have never considered either mithril or adamantine to be ferrous metals before. In your campaigns are these metals effected by magnetic fields?

Uncertainty
2010-09-11, 07:21 AM
I am currently reading the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide. It lists a number of mundane items. One of which is a magnet. It describes using said magnet to pick up steel, mithril and adamantine. I have never considered either mithril or adamantine to be ferrous metals before. In your campaigns are these metals effected by magnetic fields?

I always imagined mithril as being like titanium in most respects - that is, light, hard, and non-ferrous. It's not backed by any of the rules/fluff (I don't think), but that's just how I thought of it.

Riffington
2010-09-11, 07:42 AM
I had imagined adamantine to be ferromagnetic if not strictly-speaking ferrous. I'd never imagined mithril to be magnetic at all.

Of course, I also imagined mithril to be an alloy (including some small amount of silver), while adamantine was a pure element.

valadil
2010-09-11, 08:31 AM
Usually just iron for me. I try not to mix fantasy and science, and I'm surprised that Pathfinder went that route. I don't mind adamantine being ferrous, but take exception to mithril, as it's supposed to be based on silver.

RebelRogue
2010-09-11, 09:07 AM
Sounds like bad research, but on the other hand we should think of the catgirls!

However, I am now thinking of a kobold wearing cobalt armor for some reason...

ScionoftheVoid
2010-09-11, 09:11 AM
Isn't adamantine an alloy of something like one part silver, three parts electrum (yes I do realise how stupid that is) and four parts adamant? Unless adamant is ferrous adamantine probably shouldn't be, and yet adamantine is (looking at this thread) considered more likely to be ferrous than mithril is. Note: This is based on things I've seen mentioned when adamantine, adamantite and/or adamant have come up, those metals could well not be from an official or reliable source, please don't blame me for this. Or the fact that apparently adamantine includes both silver and an alloy which includes silver, which has (AFAIK) no universal standard for how much of each metal should be used.

Personally I'd also say that mithril isn't ferrous and adamantine probably is.

Urpriest
2010-09-11, 09:14 AM
Interestingly enough, this actually has some effect on the rules. There are spells/etc. out there that affect ferrous metals. Off the top of my head, Dispater has abilities that are relevantly changed by this, if true. The Iron Siege thread on the WotC forums probably should hear about this...

Glimbur
2010-09-11, 10:25 AM
Mithral is less dense than steel, expensive, and silvery. Aluminum is less dense than steel, expensive, and silvery. Throw in some magic so it can have the properties you need and voila! Therefore, I don't think mithral is ferrous.

Adamantine is an ultrahard metal. That must mean it's harder than steel. Martensitic steel, according to wiki, has a Brinell hardness of 600. Titanium has a Brinell hardness of 716. Titanium is also more expensive than steel. The high melting point and ability to burn before it melts makes it extra expensive to work with. It's also non-ferrous.

Or you could keep science out of your fantasy.

ericgrau
2010-09-11, 10:57 AM
Regardless of what metals mithril and adamantine are it is unlikely for them to be magnetic unless they are alloys of steel. There aren't very many magnetic metals besides iron. Since adamantine weighs the same as steel it might be an alloy, but even if mithril contains iron it can't be very much so it would be weakly magnetic at best.

I think this is more of a pathfinder screwup. Even if you don't pay much attention to physics the idea that non-steels aren't magnetic is pretty basic. I mean does that magnet attract gold, silver and copper too?

Zeta Kai
2010-09-11, 11:12 AM
1) I consider mithril to be an alloy of yttrium silver (as speculated in The Science of Middle Earth (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/103003_02.html)). Yttrium is a paramagnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetic), & silver is a diamagnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism), so an alloy of both would probably be magnetically weak or null.

2) I imagine that adamantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamant) is a carbon lattice of some sort, like diamond. Carbon is also a diamagnetic element, & most carbon structures are practically non-magnetic. So I'd say that a magnet would not have any effect on adamantine (as opposed to adamantium, the metal from Marvel comics fame).

3) Both substances are pure fantasy, & Pathfinder is well within their rights to say that a magnet works on them, which is probably more interesting & useful for the game than the alternative.

Skorj
2010-09-11, 11:16 AM
Per Tolkien, Mithril was alloyed to make a metal "ligher and harder than steel" (never named) which was used in weapons and armor. Bilbo's "mithril" coat was this alloy. Clearly not steel in the source material, so I'd say non-ferrous.

Mithril could also be alloyed differently to make ithildin, a metal that only shone by starlight or moonlight, as on the doors of Moria. What kind of security is that, writing your password hint phrase on your door? Bruce Schneier once compared that to a post-it note on a monitor. :smallsmile:

Eldan
2010-09-11, 12:13 PM
Well, as they even say in the book, it wasn't supposed to be a security measure. They wrote it on the door, because everyone was supposed to enter. Perhaps the rules of hospitality have some requirement that if you say "friend", you are not supposed to attack, or something, but that door was not supposed to defend against sieges.

ericgrau
2010-09-11, 12:17 PM
1) I consider mithril to be an alloy of yttrium silver (as speculated in The Science of Middle Earth (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/103003_02.html)). Yttrium is a paramagnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramagnetic), & silver is a diamagnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism), so an alloy of both would probably be magnetically weak or null.

2) I imagine that adamantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamant) is a carbon lattice of some sort, like diamond. Carbon is also a diamagnetic element, & most carbon structures are practically non-magnetic. So I'd say that a magnet would not have any effect on adamantine (as opposed to adamantium, the metal from Marvel comics fame).

3) Both substances are pure fantasy, & Pathfinder is well within their rights to say that a magnet works on them, which is probably more interesting & useful for the game than the alternative.
1&2) Based on the PDF linked by the wiki yttrium rates at +200, silver at -20, and carbon at -6, glass at -30. Iron is over 10,000. For all practical purposes none of those materials are magnetic (except iron of course).
3) The only other major magnetic materials I found listed, short of radioactive and/or highly toxic elements, are manganese and neodynium. Neither is good for making strong alloys. With the many different metallic elements out there it would be an extreme coincidence to assume mithril or adamantine are magnetic unless they are alloys of iron.

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-11, 12:18 PM
Of course, I also imagined mithril to be an alloy (including some small amount of silver), while adamantine was a pure element.


2) I imagine that adamantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamant) is a carbon lattice of some sort, like diamond. Carbon is also a diamagnetic element, & most carbon structures are practically non-magnetic. So I'd say that a magnet would not have any effect on adamantine (as opposed to adamantium, the metal from Marvel comics fame).

This is close to what I believe both mithril/mythril/mithral and adamantine are.

Basically, mithril has always been compared to titanium for the properties both share (tensile strength, weight and thus density) but mithril shares a quality with silver in luster and shine. Thus, it would be an alloy of silver and titanium, with silver mostly there to provide the luster; although you could also argue that it could be a silver compound under a different crystalline structure. I recall Chrono Cross stating mythril silver to be Ag47, though that would be a most irregular structure.

Adamantine, on the other hand, would share the same structure as diamond but would be composed of iron and carbon. Essentially, a steel alloy (most notably one with a sizable amount of carbon embedded) with a structure resembling diamond, hence "adamantine" (of the strength of diamond). Given its properties, it should be a metal, but whether it has ferromagnetic or paramagnetic properties should be determined by the structure itself; iron could very well allow magnetism, but the structure and how carbon interferes with iron could make a very elegant structure that nulls the ferromagnetic properties of iron.

Now, the one item I always frown upon is "cold" iron. Technically, cold iron (as per the game) is iron mined deep underground and treated with low heat in order to keep its qualities. In real life (or as much as I can recall), "cold iron" techniques involve any form of forging that is done with no heat, such as hammering iron and folding iron. Thus, in theory, any type of heat-treated iron would lose its properties, but any forged weapon should gain the properties of cold iron. It's also odd that cold iron wasn't considered as a magnetic material, since it should be quite ferromagnetic as it is largely untreated (and depending on the structure and the vein, it should be ferromagnetic itself).

As for alchemical silver, it's a good way to handle why silver would suck as a weapon (it can't hold an edge, it's too dense and its properties doesn't allow to act as a lead bullet would); infuse silver through a process that would be roughly similar to electrodepositing, or perhaps the amalgam technique used to deposit gold on iron (it requires mercury IIRC, and the end result was pretty toxic), done after the weapon was forged and edged (in the case of slashing or piercing weapons). As expected, alchemical silver probably counts as pure silver, thus it doesn't hold ferromagnetic or paramagnetic properties.

arguskos
2010-09-11, 12:31 PM
Well, by using the old 2e formulas for mithril and adamantine, mithril is not magnetic, where adamantine actually is. Adamantine is 1/8 electrum, 2/8 silver, and 5/8 adamant. Adamant is called out to be specifically ferromagnetic, meaning that adamantine should retain that property, at least somewhat. It might not be crazily strong magnetically, but it sure is magnetic. That's just me though.

ericgrau
2010-09-11, 12:31 PM
2e to the rescue. Yeah, I'd just go with that. That's the one major thing 3e seems to be missing, is story details for all the rules. It's a real shame as it only pushes the rules-lawyer mindset even more when there's only rules and minimal backstory to them.


<Long post clipped>
Ya D&D cold iron is partly different from the modern definition of cold iron, but they're both forged the same way. So all D&D cold iron also fits the modern definition of cold iron, but the reverse isn't necessarily true. D&D cold iron is also iron, so I'd assume that it is also magnetic. Traditional cold iron for stopping fey in real world mythology otoh follows the same definition as the modern definition.

2xMachina
2010-09-11, 12:57 PM
Ferrous = contains iron.

So, some steels are, but pure ANYTHING non iron is definitely non ferrous.

Draz74
2010-09-11, 01:24 PM
Ferrous = contains iron.

So, some steels are, but pure ANYTHING non iron is definitely non ferrous.

Well, in the context of magnetism (i.e. where ferromagnetic, not ferrous, is what matters), Nickel and Cobalt are also considered ferrous. So a fantastic new metallic element could be too.

Uncertainty
2010-09-11, 03:03 PM
Well, as they even say in the book, it wasn't supposed to be a security measure. They wrote it on the door, because everyone was supposed to enter. Perhaps the rules of hospitality have some requirement that if you say "friend", you are not supposed to attack, or something, but that door was not supposed to defend against sieges.

If I recall, the door was meant to be opened by anybody capable of speaking elvish (And thus able to read the writing upon it.) It was part of some sort of trade thing between the dwarves and the elves, before they had a falling out.

hamishspence
2010-09-11, 03:07 PM
I wondered if Adamantine was (at least in some versions) "starmetal" AKA natural nickel-iron alloy?

Nickel+iron, in meteorites, can produce an unusually tough metal.

And adamantine is sometimes characterized as coming from meteorites.

Zaydos
2010-09-11, 03:25 PM
I wondered if Adamantine was (at least in some versions) "starmetal" AKA natural nickel-iron alloy?

Nickel+iron, in meteorites, can produce an unusually tough metal.

And adamantine is sometimes characterized as coming from meteorites.

I use that adamantine is starmetal, partially because there was an example of super-hard black metal in the Silmarillion that was also starmetal. I have also used adamantine as being an alloy of a super-dense metal and a lot of steel before.

For Cold Iron I use that it is more magnetic than normal iron and that is why it is effective against fey (magnetism hurts fairies in my mind apparently).

For Mithril I sometimes go with the idea that items made from it are not pure mithril but an alloy; other times I go it's titanium although I've stopped that since I was a kid (I thought I was so smart for thinking that up... yeah not); still others I say it is just a fantastic metal never known on earth.

sciencepanda
2010-09-11, 05:34 PM
I'd always pictured adamantine as being similar to Damascus Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel), as in a heavily layered, ferrous alloy of some sort.

Xuc Xac
2010-09-12, 02:03 AM
Now, the one item I always frown upon is "cold" iron. Technically, cold iron (as per the game) is iron mined deep underground and treated with low heat in order to keep its qualities. In real life (or as much as I can recall), "cold iron" techniques involve any form of forging that is done with no heat, such as hammering iron and folding iron. Thus, in theory, any type of heat-treated iron would lose its properties, but any forged weapon should gain the properties of cold iron. It's also odd that cold iron wasn't considered as a magnetic material, since it should be quite ferromagnetic as it is largely untreated (and depending on the structure and the vein, it should be ferromagnetic itself).


"Cold iron" is just iron. It's not special in any way. D&D makes it a special material because it's useful against certain monsters, so the designers think it needs to be more expensive. In the real world, cold iron repelling fairies was supposed to make it really easy to keep fairies away. If they made up those stories today, they probably would say that fairies are repelled by plastic.

Referring to steel weapons as "cold iron" is just a poetic turn of phrase like "cold, hard cash". In the same way, when a gangster from the roaring '20s points his tommy gun at a policemen and says "Eat hot lead, copper!", he's not talking about a special kind of lead that's poisonous to men made of copper. The "hot lead" bullets don't even have to be administered orally to kill the "copper".

Hague
2010-09-12, 02:38 AM
Are we talking scientific magnetism or magical magnetism?

2xMachina
2010-09-12, 06:23 AM
lol, I always thought Adamantine/Mithril was a pure type of metal, like Iron, or Copper, or whatever.

Setra
2010-09-12, 06:31 AM
lol, I always thought Adamantine/Mithril was a pure type of metal, like Iron, or Copper, or whatever.
Same here really, I tend to think of both of them as just something you mine from rock then forge into weapons.

Having said that, I've never thought of either as magnetic... but that could just be because it's never come up so I didn't think about the magnetism of either at all.

MarkusWolfe
2010-09-12, 08:15 AM
Usually just iron for me. I try not to mix fantasy and science, and I'm surprised that Pathfinder went that route. I don't mind adamantine being ferrous, but take exception to mithril, as it's supposed to be based on silver.

I always thought of it as a tititanium alloy. Still not ferrous, but it explains the properties better. Likewise, I agree adamantine would be ferrous.

Draz74
2010-09-12, 12:27 PM
I think of them as alloys. And I'm with the guy who was saying adamantine is the same thing as "starmetal," or meteoric steel, and would therefore be ferromagnetic.

Mithral != magnetic IMO.