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heymejack
2010-09-11, 09:17 AM
i have a new player coming to our next game tuesday (thats 3 days from this op) and he wants to play the archer/healbot. the problem is he's new and i have very little experience making clerics. anybody interested in helping out? i'm not looking for a full 20 level build here, although i am interested in that, theoretically. what i actually need though is the beginning, as in, he's starting at level 5 and would like an idea of what direction he's headed for level 10, maybe 15, including:

races (i like lesser aasimar, but i havn't spoken to him about this at all, so i'd like to know my options)
base class(es)
prestige classes
feats (zen archery and a high wisdom are must-haves)
domains
spells

the party has a goliath with a spiked chain, a human monk and a pixie rogue.

he also likes the idea of being on horseback (for doublemoves/fullattacks) but i'm going to have to make it clear how that'll hurt him underground. any suggestions here?

Telok
2010-09-11, 09:41 AM
I did this once. I may be able to post a whole 15th level build tomorrow when I get to the other computer but I will put down the basics now.

Wild elf cleric, Elf and War domains, Manyshot feat chain.

The points here are that wild elves don't take a Con hit, True Strike (from the Elf domain) works with Manyshot because it is only one attack roll, and the War domain gives weapon focus and Divine Power.

Eldariel
2010-09-11, 10:14 AM
War-domain is a bad call with Elf since the whole point of playing an Elf is to get free Bow-proficiencies; WF isn't worth a domain and Divine Power is on Cleric spell list without a domain. Try something like Planning instead to ease up your feat burden. He'll still need 13 Dex to qualify for Rapid Shot; something to keep in mind; Manyshot is 17 so without magical enhancements, that may be a tad optimistic. Other than that, you'll probably want:

- Elf-domain
- Wild Elf
- DMM: Persist (is a solid choice; frees up your actions for shooting when your persistent spells [Mass Lesser Vigor/Vigorous Circle] do all the healbotty stuff, and there's a good bunch of persistent spells that make your archery better)
- Buff spells (easy ones: Divine Favor, Blessed Aim [SC], Recitation [SC], Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [SC], Righteous Might, Holy Star [SC], Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, etc.)

Jack_Simth
2010-09-11, 10:43 AM
- DMM: Persist (is a solid choice; frees up your actions for shooting when your persistent spells [Mass Lesser Vigor/Vigorous Circle] do all the healbotty stuff, and there's a good bunch of persistent spells that make your archery better)Yes, although at 5th, you'll be relatively hard pressed to Persist more than one spell. Mass Lesser Vigor is a good choice for the level.

Eldariel
2010-09-11, 11:25 AM
Yes, although at 5th, you'll be relatively hard pressed to Persist more than one spell. Mass Lesser Vigor is a good choice for the level.

Depends on if flaws are allowed or not; an all-out Persist build can have Extend Persistent + DMM + Extra Turning + Extra Turning + Extra Turning on level 1 Human Undeath/Planning; that's 12 bonus turnings so assuming 8 Cha, 14. Something like 14 Cha will earn you a third spell on level 3, let alone items (Reliquary Holy Symbol in particular). Of course, that's not applicable here.

But yeah, something like:
Wild Elf Cleric with Elf/Planning domains would get:
- PBS (Domain)
- Extend (Domain)
- Rapid Shot
- Zen Archery (Flaw)
- Persistent Spell (Flaw)
- DMM: Persistent (3)

That'd get you a persistent spell and all the key feats on level 5 (assuming Reliquary Holy Symbol and some Cha). If going Cloistered, there's also Knowledge Devotion-trade available (though ironically, that removes access to many of the key Knowledges; still, already by default Cleric has Arcana, Religion and The Planes which is 3 out of 6 - Ruathar would get all; of course, Ruathar Elf is kinda strange and misses out on the free MWP to boot). If going Human Ruathar, you could have:

Human Cloistered Cleric with Elf (makes sense for a Ruathar) & e.g. Planning
- PBS (Domain)
- Extend (Domain)
- Knowledge Devotion (Domain)
- Rapid Shot
- Zen Archery
- Persistent Spell (Flaw)
- DMM: Persistent Spell (Flaw)
- Extra Turning (3)
- Extra Turning (6)

Of course, that build really needs level 6 as you can't take Ruathar before then. Heck, it could also handle Roguey stuff if necessary; Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Kobold) adds Search/Disable Device and Trapfinding to the menu and Contemplative could get e.g. Trickery for some extra skills and Ruathar already providing Spot & Listen in class. But meh, now I'm just getting carried away.

IthilanorStPete
2010-09-11, 11:38 AM
One minor correction: Cloistered Cleric still has all Knowledge skills as class skills, even without the Knowledge domain.

Eldariel
2010-09-11, 11:45 AM
One minor correction: Cloistered Cleric still has all Knowledge skills as class skills, even without the Knowledge domain.

It can be...disputed. It states it gets them due to the Knowledge-domain. Once you lose the domain...well, nothing really says what happens. As a DM I'd just say you default to normal Cleric domains.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-11, 11:47 AM
One minor correction: Cloistered Cleric still has all Knowledge skills as class skills, even without the Knowledge domain.There's a parenthetical note in the skills entry about that, sadly.

2xMachina
2010-09-11, 01:18 PM
1 reason for the war domain: Holy Warrior feat.

Sacrifice a domain spell slot to get the spell lvl to damage? Yes please.

The fluff goes to hell, but a Human with Elf+War domain is great.

Kylarra
2010-09-11, 01:37 PM
1 reason for the war domain: Holy Warrior feat.

Sacrifice a domain spell slot to get the spell lvl to damage? Yes please.

The fluff goes to hell, but a Human with Elf+War domain is great.
+9 damage for a 9th level spell seems very mediocre to me. :smalltongue:
Edit: As a reserve feat it's marginally better than first impressions, but still not worth the opportunity cost in an already feat starved build imo.

2xMachina
2010-09-11, 01:50 PM
I don't know. I made 1 with it. (Though yes, there were 3 flaws, so 1 or 3 extra, but I dumped 1 into Divine Ward, and 4 into DMM persist)

Just need Rapidshot and precise shot, and you're mostly set to go. Quicken also, but I don't really see what other feats to pick up,

Kylarra
2010-09-11, 02:02 PM
I never said it wasn't possible, simply that I don't think the opportunity cost is worth it.

2xMachina
2010-09-11, 02:07 PM
It does come in quite late.

What feats would you pick though? I looked through the cleric handbook, and I didn't like quite a number.

JKTrickster
2010-09-11, 02:29 PM
Note: just a warning to the OP: Zen Archery is NOT a required feat for Cleric Archers. In fact it could be a TRAP! Most often taking Zen Archery delays taking DMM: Persist, which is a MUCH better method of getting a higher bonus to your attack.

I would recommend going Wild Elf Cloistered Cleric 5 with the domains Elf, Planning, and Knowledge. Stats wise would be Wis, Con, Dex/Cha, Dex/Cha (because the only archery feats that are absolutely necessary would be PBS, Precise, and maybe Rapid. Manyshot and Improved Manyshot need too high of a Dex and too much MAD for a good build for a beginner) If a good point buy is allowed, Wis should be 16+, Con should be 14+, and Dex and Cha need to be at 13+ (Cha can be much higher, Dex doesn't have to be).

Feats wise this looks like:

1 - PBS (Elf Domain)
1 - Extend (Planning Domain)
1 - Precise Shot
if Flaws are allowed pick up
Persistent Spell
DMM: Persist
All other feats can either be: Extra Turning, or Rapid Shot, or any requisite feats for getting in PrCs that the player wants.

For healing, please tell the player to look at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_(And,_why_you_will_be_J ust_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)). With the minimal expenditure of resources, the player doesn't have to be a healbot 24/7 and probably SHOULDN'T anyway. This way, the player can devote some part of him to being a healbot and the other to being an actual agent of divine forces!

Note on DMM: Persist, at 5th level the player should be persisting 3rd level buff spells for the entire party, particulary ones that boost attack power so that the player won't be too bad as an archer.

Coidzor
2010-09-11, 02:36 PM
If he goes cleric base, all he needs is the party to split the cost of a wand of lesser vigor and out of combat healing is taken care of nicely. There's really no further investment needed to be a healer, especially if he can spontaneously cure if needed.

Telok
2010-09-11, 11:53 PM
Pesonally, I always felt that DMM:Persist was a bit too cheesy and easily dispelled to be a reliable part of a build. This is copy/pasta from my spreadsheet, it's the basis of a level 15 character I ran after I retired a warblade. I distinctly remember Revenance being really useful with the spell that raised people from the dead if you cast it on them within one round.

Elf Cleric, [elf, war]point blank, wf:bow
1 open feat
3 precise
6 rapid
9 many
12 imp. rapid
15 open feat

Divine Favor, 1 10 rnd
+1/3 lvl att&dmg [luck]
Divine Power, 4 1 rnd/lvl
bab=lvl +6str
Magic Weapon Greater, 4 1 hr/lvl
+1/4 lvl att&dmg [enh]
Weapon of the Deity, 4 1 rnd/lvl
+1/3 lvl att&dmg [enh]
Blessed Aim(CDiv p154)
Inspired Aim


elf
True Strike(
Cat’s Grace(
Snare
Tree Stride(
Commune with Nature(
Find the Path(
Liveoak
Sunburst
Antipathy

war
Magic Weapon(
Spiritual Weapon(
Magic Vestment(
Divine Power(
Flame Strike(
Blade Barrier(
Power Word Blind(
Power Word Stun(
Power Word Kill(

collision longbow +1 18.4 ac
mithril full plate +4 27 11
spiked gauntlet of defending & parrying +2 26.3 3
glove of storing 10
buckler +4 16.3 5
ring protection +2 8 2
ring counterspelling (dispel magic) 4
quiver of elhonna 1.8
total 111.8 21
cost ac+

0, detect magic
1, divine favor, true strike
2, cure/vigor, true strike
3, dispel magic , true strike
4, greater magic wpn + revenance, divine favor
5, misc, divine favor
6, heal, divine favor

Curmudgeon
2010-09-12, 10:33 AM
I came up with this build for a previous thread, about getting more feats for archery. My solution ended up being primarily a spellcaster with Cloistered Cleric as a base. With a Good alignment, that means spontaneous Cure spells to cover the healing you want. Do note the "cheesy sauce" mention is there for completeness, and I do not recommend that approach.


Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 6 for Dead Eye, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

Jack_Simth
2010-09-12, 12:17 PM
Pesonally, I always felt that DMM:Persist was a bit too cheesy Well, yes.
and easily dispelledThere's ways to fix that; here's two basic routes, which can be combined.
1) Boost spellcaster level vs. Dispels. As the spells last all day, you simply invoke the Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer beads (+4 caster level for all purposes), put up your Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1 Caster level for all purposes), and make sure you've been wearing your Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage; +4 caster level for purposes of resisting dispels only) when you cast your spells (I'm sure there's other stuff that would also help, and stack). This makes it really unlikely anything will be dispelled by a CR-appropriate encounter (Disjoined is another matter, though). Oh yes, and make sure to put the ioun stone away when you're done - it's too vulnerable just sitting there swirling around you.
2) Assume that some of the effects will be dispelled, and be prepared to put them back up afterwards. Only burn half your turn attempts on DMM, and make sure to have two copies of each spell you consider important - that way, when they're dispelled, you simply put them back up after the battle is done.

to be a reliable part of a build. This is copy/pasta from my spreadsheet, it's the basis of a level 15 character I ran after I retired a warblade. I distinctly remember Revenance being really useful with the spell that raised people from the dead if you cast it on them within one round.Yeah. Revenance + Revivify = 1,000 gp Raise Dead with no level loss ... if you have it prepared in advance (as Revenance - or at least, the one listed in Spell Compendium - requires the ally have been dead no more than 1 round/level - which will usually let you do it after combat). Delay Death + Heal is even better, usually, if you keep your Immediate actions free.