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View Full Version : Does the Noncombatant Flaw affect Grappling?



Gavinfoxx
2010-09-11, 02:00 PM
Hi, I was wondering if the Noncombatant Flaw from UA / SRD affects Grapple checks, and if so, if anyone could explain how they figured that out? Thanks!

PId6
2010-09-11, 02:04 PM
No. The flaw only mentions giving a -2 penalty to melee attack rolls, which grapple checks are not. It would affect the touch attack to initiate the grapple, but not the grapple checks themselves.

Kylarra
2010-09-11, 02:07 PM
I would apply it to grapple checks, but per RAW, I'm not sure. It does say a grapple check is "like a melee attack roll", but ... yeah.

Jallorn
2010-09-11, 02:09 PM
I think by strict RAW it doesn't.

But by RAI it should.

Coidzor
2010-09-11, 02:10 PM
Nocombatant is on all melee attack rolls. So, yes. Whether it applies to all grapple checks, I am not sure, but there are several melee attack rolls involved in starting a grapple.


Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.


If Youíre Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You canít attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

As to whether grapple checks count as melee attack rolls...
Grapple Checks

Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier


If Youíre Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Seem to be the only RAW on the matter, so it is entirely up to interpretation. One could say that since grapplechecks are definitely not ranged and can take the place of an attack action as part of a full attack, that they then count since they're already like a melee attack roll.

However there's that niggling detail of them being said to be "like a melee attack roll" rather than a special type of melee attack roll.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-11, 02:20 PM
Okay, the reason I wanted to know this is because a friend of mine have divided tasks in a two PC game -- my character and her companions for melee, the other character and her companions for ranged, and we both took flaws and character options to reinforce this role. I was wondering what an Artificer with low strength and this flaw could do to have *some* way of being able to do something in melee in an emergency case, in case my Druid, her summons, her battlefield control spells, her animal companion, her trained animals, and her commanded animals, can't prevent whatever it is from reaching the other character in melee...

Coidzor
2010-09-11, 02:23 PM
Okay, the reason I wanted to know this is because a friend of mine have divided tasks in a two PC game -- my character and her companions for melee, the other character and her companions for ranged, and we both took flaws and character options to reinforce this role. I was wondering what an Artificer with low strength and this flaw could do to have *some* way of being able to do something in melee in an emergency case, in case my Druid, her summons, her battlefield control spells, her animal companion, her trained animals, and her commanded animals, can't prevent whatever it is from reaching the other character in melee...

Schmagic items, seriously.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-11, 02:29 PM
Schmagic items, seriously.

What? I KNOW magic items will be useful, I don't know which ones would be most useful for something that is most definitely a secondary part of a character (ie, a backup plan). I also want to know what rules might be interacting with this...

Thanks!