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zephiros
2010-09-11, 02:10 PM
Of the Polymorph type spells, how many can grant you the spell like abilities of the creature you mimic? Or other racial abilities for that matter?

This includes Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object (not sure if it can be cast on self?) and Shapechange.

Thanks for the help.

mootoall
2010-09-11, 02:12 PM
As far as I can tell, PaO and Shapechange. Polymorph only gives you the form of the creature, PaO turns you into the creature.

zephiros
2010-09-11, 02:13 PM
So Polymorph any Object can be self cast and grant you the creature's full capabilities? Excellent....

mootoall
2010-09-11, 02:14 PM
Yup. Good luck abusing this spell. We all have at some point.

zephiros
2010-09-11, 02:19 PM
:P Much obliged good sir, I haven't yet had the opportunity to. But I plan on using it as well as possible. :P

Jack_Simth
2010-09-11, 02:55 PM
Of the Polymorph type spells, how many can grant you the spell like abilities of the creature you mimic?None of them.
Or other racial abilities for that matter?Most of them will give you something of the racial qualities - you get the type, so you get anything that comes with the type itself, unless you specifically don't. And you need a full-on Shapechange to get Su abilities of any stripe (that, or one of a few particular feats).

Is there any specific critter you're looking to steal an ability from? My first guess is an Efreeti....

zephiros
2010-09-11, 02:58 PM
Umm, doesn't need to be an efreeti, but that is the idea. Is there another method I should know of?

Uncertainty
2010-09-11, 03:00 PM
My advice: Wear a helmet to your next gaming session.

zephiros
2010-09-11, 03:01 PM
Protection from DM, Party Members, or Both? :P

imperialspectre
2010-09-11, 03:05 PM
Only the DM, if you know how to support your party properly. In some games, not even the DM (but if you were in that kind of game, you wouldn't have to ask us how to abuse polymorphing).

zephiros
2010-09-11, 03:07 PM
No I've just never played a character capable of high-level casting before. :/ Although I'm sure my DM will be thrilled.

So for SLAs you're kind of screwed then, or?

Uncertainty
2010-09-11, 03:08 PM
Depends. I don't know your group's dynamic, but probably more the DM, if anyone. Just a safety precaution.

And I do think that Shapechange is your best bet here.

Edit:

Wait a minute. PAO does not grant SLAs? I could have sworn it did...

Jack_Simth
2010-09-11, 03:11 PM
Protection from DM, Party Members, or Both? :PYes.

But nothing in the polymorph line gives you spell-like abilities of the target.

However....
1) Outsiders can be Gated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) in, and forced to obey your wishes for a time. Oh yes, and Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling) effects don't have the pesky clause that Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning) effects do: "it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells" - so a Called Efreeti will give you the Wishes (if not cheerfully). And you can get a Candle of Invocation (LE) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation) or a scroll of Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) (oddly, the candle's cheaper...).
2) Occasionally, you'll run across a feat or class feature that upgrades Polymorph (or more commonly, Wildshape) for specific critters. The Planar Shepherd PrC being the most oft-cited example.
3) The Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) gets the ability to steal spell-like abilities by ECL 15, if you go straight Ur-Priest.

zephiros
2010-09-11, 03:48 PM
So Shapechange won't grant the SLA's either? Is there any more obscure spells of the type that will?

Skaven
2010-09-11, 03:49 PM
Epic spells.

I think the 3.0 Shifter did.. I forget.

zephiros
2010-09-11, 03:52 PM
Idk, PAO doesn't say anywhere that it doesn't grant SLA's, and it mentions that it functions "like polymorph except that it changes one object or creature into another".

I'm not an expert at interpreting the rules by any means, but if you are considered an Efreeti after transformation, shouldn't that mean you can act as one?

zephiros
2010-09-11, 03:53 PM
Epic spells.

Any in particular that you know of?

Or player-created ones, you mean?

zephiros
2010-09-11, 03:59 PM
I looked through Shapechange again and it does offer all "extraordinary or supernatural abilities" which is incredibly useful.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-11, 04:17 PM
Idk, PAO doesn't say anywhere that it doesn't grant SLA's, and it mentions that it functions "like polymorph except that it changes one object or creature into another".

I'm not an expert at interpreting the rules by any means, but if you are considered an Efreeti after transformation, shouldn't that mean you can act as one?

No, PAO does not grant SLA's. The important part of that sentence is the word "object," because Polymorph will not allow you to transform into objects, and will not transform objects.

What PAO does do is grant you, different from regular polymorph, is the INT score of the new form.

Shapechange does not grant SLA's either.

Vemynal
2010-09-11, 08:26 PM
Ok heres a question then:

If I complete all 10 levels of Master Transmogrifist could I chose Efreeti as one of my forms? As I understand it when I change into it I would literally change into an Efreeti and have their wish ability? (yes I'd have to expend the exp cost as i understand it)

Urpriest
2010-09-11, 08:36 PM
Ok heres a question then:

If I complete all 10 levels of Master Transmogrifist could I chose Efreeti as one of my forms? As I understand it when I change into it I would literally change into an Efreeti and have their wish ability? (yes I'd have to expend the exp cost as i understand it)

Nothing in Master Transmorgrifist says you gain the spell-like abilities of the thing you change into. Were you thinking of a different PrC?

Talakeal
2010-09-11, 09:09 PM
What about abilities that have no type?

I remember I had a mage who would polymorph into elemental wierds to gain a pool of instant death as well as the ability to cast all arcane and some divine spells as an 18th level sorcerer. As these abilities do not have the EX, SU, or SLA tag we assumed they were fair game.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-11, 10:43 PM
What about abilities that have no type?

I remember I had a mage who would polymorph into elemental wierds to gain a pool of instant death as well as the ability to cast all arcane and some divine spells as an 18th level sorcerer. As these abilities do not have the EX, SU, or SLA tag we assumed they were fair game.

Technically, unless you persisted the polymorph and were able to rest and prepare the spells you should not have been able to cast them.

Most people treat spellcasting as Ex, because the only time it was actually given a label it was given Ex (in MM4 or something like that).

zephiros
2010-09-12, 01:17 PM
Another question then, supposing the PAO or Shapechange could grant SLAs, would it be necessary to expend the xp regardless, given that it's not a spell? And yeah, if it doesn't work out that way then Gate might be a worthwhile spell to invest in.

I still like the sound of Shapechange though, given that it does grant the other abilities of the creature. Like....if I shapechanged to a dragon, I gain breath weapon, no?

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-12, 01:30 PM
Another question then, supposing the PAO or Shapechange could grant SLAs, would it be necessary to expend the xp regardless, given that it's not a spell? And yeah, if it doesn't work out that way then Gate might be a worthwhile spell to invest in.

I still like the sound of Shapechange though, given that it does grant the other abilities of the creature. Like....if I shapechanged to a dragon, I gain breath weapon, no?

SLA's do not cost in material components or XP.

Yes, you would get the breath weapon, fear aura, etc. of the dragon.

Any sensible DM would never, ever grant SLA's from these spells, and they also wouldn't grant the spellcasting powers of the creature (even if you were able to rest and prepare the spells). Most core spells can be found as Su's on creatures anyway.

zephiros
2010-09-12, 01:49 PM
In that case, does anyone know of anything that gains wish as a type of ability that would be usable via these spells?

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 01:53 PM
Another question then, supposing the PAO or Shapechange could grant SLAs, would it be necessary to expend the xp regardless, given that it's not a spell?

SLAs don't have a XP cost. Ever.

mootoall
2010-09-12, 01:55 PM
In that case, does anyone know of anything that gains wish as a type of ability that would be usable via these spells?

Well, the efreeti, but they can't use the wish for themselves.

Urpriest
2010-09-12, 02:43 PM
Well, the efreeti, but they can't use the wish for themselves.

Well RAW, they can't use the wish for genies. You're not a genie, you're a human under the effect of shapechange. :smallwink:

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 02:53 PM
Well RAW, they can't use the wish for genies. You're not a genie, you're a human under the effect of shapechange. :smallwink:

So polymorph another object qualifies you for beholder mage (because you sure as hell are a beholder!) but you can still use the wish for yourself?
...yeah, right.

Urpriest
2010-09-12, 04:44 PM
So polymorph another object qualifies you for beholder mage (because you sure as hell are a beholder!) but you can still use the wish for yourself?
...yeah, right.

True, using both types of cheese would get a book thrown at you...but do note that Shapechange lacks the line that people misinterpret to mean that PaO qualifies you for Beholder Mage. So you can shapechange to grant yourself wishes and use PaO to cast nine spells in a round. You'll probably still get books thrown at you, but maybe they'll be softer ones?

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-12, 06:09 PM
Well RAW, they can't use the wish for genies. You're not a genie, you're a human under the effect of shapechange. :smallwink:

That's not how it works. When you Polymorph or Shapechange, you are no longer a human (or whatever your starting race was). You are the creature whose form you have taken.

There is no such type as "human under the effect of Shapechange."

Urpriest
2010-09-12, 06:19 PM
That's not how it works. When you Polymorph or Shapechange, you are no longer a human (or whatever your starting race was). You are the creature whose form you have taken.

There is no such type as "human under the effect of Shapechange."

Nor is there such type as "human". It's a subtype.

More to the point, genie is neither a subtype nor a type.

Lamech
2010-09-12, 09:54 PM
I'm going to point out efreeti don't have wish as a spell like ablity. They have a completely different ablity that grants 3 wishes to a non-genie. So the Efreeti can presumably fire all three wishes in a round. Huzzah!

Also the three wishes don't have a handy "safe list", and will in all likely hood kill you painfully.