Adept versus Fighter [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

imperialspectre

2010-09-11, 03:01 PM

At level 1, if the Adept prepares Sleep and wins initiative, there's some chance the Fighter loses (basically the chance that the Fighter has of missing one attack, coupled with the chance that the Fighter fails the Will save).

Edit: The problem with Sleep is that its one-round casting time means you have to either be out of range of a charge (and out of range of a ranged attack, if the Fighter has one), or lucky enough that the Fighter misses the first attack. The Will save is great, but keep in mind that a level 1 Fighter should be hitting at around +4 or +5, especially on a charge - the Adept's AC doesn't give much better of a chance than the Fighter's Will save.

At level 5, Web + Scorching Ray means that the Adept has a very small chance of winning. Web, however, means that the Adept has almost no chance of losing, and Invisibility also is a near-guarantee that the Fighter can't kill the Adept reliably.

At level 10, Web + Scorching Ray + Lightning Bolt offers some chance of success with lucky rolls on damage. The fight likely comes down to initiative, since Web is very difficult to aim unless you start from decent range.

At level 15, the Adept's access to Polymorph may bring success, but WBL has gotten high enough that practically all of the Adept's low-level spells can now be duplicated or countered.

At level 20, the Adept has no chance of success, because the Adept spell list simply doesn't contain things that are level-appropriate offense or defense. Fighters at least get full BAB and lots of bonus feats, and there are some fairly potent damage-dealing options as a level 20 fighter. Polymorph has long since hit its level cap (and the Fighter can buy Shapechange, so there's just no point).

Schylerwalker

2010-09-11, 03:05 PM

Eldariel

2010-09-11, 03:28 PM

Level 20 is pretty trivial; it's just a matter of who UMDs better if we include WBL (more or less a die roll) and pretty easy for Adept if we ban magic items entirely ('cause Polymorph, Wall of Stone, X Creation, etc.). Note that Adept has no penalties for wearing armor; he's simply not proficient so his attack rolls take a hit. Oh, woe be him, whatever shall he do! Oh yeah, cast spells.

Level 1 Adept on pb vs. level 1 Fighter on pb should be rather even; Adept is like to have ~18-20 AC (armor + shield) while the Fighter has ~+3-+6 to hit, while the Adept has DC ~13-15 Sleep vs. Fighters ~-1 - +2 Will-save. As Fighter is more or less guaranteed a ranged attack (which can't be lethal, but forces a rather difficult Concentration-check giving Adept ~50% chance of losing the spell), it's probably in Adept's favor but Fighter has a chance.

Gavinfoxx

2010-09-11, 04:01 PM

JoshuaZ

2010-09-11, 04:26 PM

What if we include the Adept variants, such as Religious Adept (Eberron Campaign setting, pg 256), presumably with common domains, as well as Urban Adept (Sharn pg 167), which has a different spell list?

The Religious Adept is strictly better than the standard adept. How well they do will depend on what domain they pick. Some domains are much more useful for combat than others. At first level there's unlikely to be any improvement (Sleep already functions as a save or die against a fighter's weakest save). The War Domain might be interesting especially with Divine Power, but that's probably a bad tactic: An adept who goes toe to toe with a fighter using sheer combat ability, even with the War Domain, is not playing to their strengths. The Death Domain is uninteresting since "cause fear" is a strictly poorer option and they already have animate dead as a third level spell, although "Slay Living" might be nice against a fighter, there are other spells that work about as well already on the adept list. Strength Domain suffers the same problems as the War Domain. Sun Domain is not great (Flame Shield is suboptimal- if the fighter is already attacking you a lot then you've likely already lost). The Animal Domain let's you have Summon Nature's Ally IV which might be useful to get a few more rounds in for you to try your more save-or-suck spells. The Air Domain is only noteworthy in letting you retreat if you need to. I'm not going go through every domain this way but the overall pattern should be clear: a single overall domain just don't add enough to change this situation much.

Gavinfoxx

2010-09-11, 04:36 PM

What if we open up Religious Adept to the "really obscure domains". Is there one that will GREATLY move the numbers in the Adept's favor?

Innis Cabal

2010-09-11, 04:47 PM

Buying items that duplicate spell effects kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise; it usually does in discussions like this. I mean, with ordinary magic items (Like protective rings, cloaks, and amulets), not all of the bullcrap with Use Magic Device and custom magic items, who would win?

Giving the fighter a bunch of ranks in Use Magic Device and some wands to defeat any enemy spellcaster does not make him cool; the other fighters laugh at him and call him a wimp, because that is not fightery.

Wait what? So take a Fighter with nothing against a caster and let them go at it, and then be surprised when the fighter goes down because despite the ruels being written for him to have alot of shiney armor and weapons and items we're neutering him....what?

This is yet another of the major fallacies of these entire debates. Ya, if you lock a Fighter with just base weapons and armor in a room with a caster with his regents he's going to get schooled. But D&D isn't designed for this sort of thing. It never was, not from 1st end on up. So...why don't we run a -real- test where the fighter actually gets his nice and shiney things. Or of course we can just keep using the Teir system and playing D&D 3.5 like it was WoW. D&D is a game where your supposed to work together with other people, not be a one man showboat and do everything on your own. If you want to strip the game down into something it's not to prove things are OP or underpowered then ya, your going to pass that test with flying colors. But it's not going to really -work- in real play.

JoshuaZ

2010-09-11, 04:48 PM

What if we open up Religious Adept to the "really obscure domains". Is there one that will GREATLY move the numbers in the Adept's favor?

The Charm Domain might be interesting given that the first level spell is Charm and the third level spell is Suggestion. But again, that's focusing on the weak will save (Suggestion would be helpful though).

Eldariel

2010-09-11, 04:49 PM

Wait what? So take a Fighter with nothing against a caster and let them go at it, and then be surprised when the fighter goes down because despite the ruels being written for him to have alot of shiney armor and weapons and items we're neutering him....what?

This is yet another of the major fallacies of these entire debates. Ya, if you lock a Fighter with just base weapons and armor in a room with a caster with his regents he's going to get schooled. But D&D isn't designed for this sort of thing. It never was, not from 1st end on up. So...why don't we run a -real- test where the fighter actually gets his nice and shiney things. Or of course we can just keep using the Teir system and playing D&D 3.5 like it was WoW.

I guess the idea is that playing "UMD Wizard" who has nothing but lots of UMD and then whips out Gate/Time Stop/Shapechange/etc. kinda defeats the purpose of any comparison, 'cause then only classes that can actually cast those spells or have immediate action counters or such have any advantage and all classes without 9th level spells are automatically deemed "equal" since their ability to UMD the 9th level spells is equivalent.

Urpriest

2010-09-11, 04:52 PM

Gavinfoxx

2010-09-11, 05:07 PM

What if we allow extremely simple, static bonuses of the type that can be simply and easily gained with WBL?

JoshuaZ

2010-09-11, 05:13 PM

What if we allow extremely simple, static bonuses of the type that can be simply and easily gained with WBL?

In that case at level 20 the fighter will almost certainly win because they can boost their saves to make the adept's spells not very useful.

Innis Cabal

2010-09-11, 05:39 PM

If we allow each build WBL, then the level 20 builds both have flying prismatic cube fortresses and the contest is moot. WBL-mancy is trivial and boring, and is not an interesting way to compare classes.

Nor is stacking them against one another one at a time because that's not how D&D is designed. It creates an illusion of unbalance when really the game was never intended to play that way.

So, if you want to play a game where you try to slam the square peg into the round hole and get frustrated all the time, that's cool I suppose. But that's all your doing in essence when you take away what the fighter would get or try to use the Teir System for anything even close to balance.

Eldariel

2010-09-11, 05:41 PM

In that case at level 20 the fighter will almost certainly win because they can boost their saves to make the adept's spells not very useful.

What? No, not exactly. The gameplan is mostly Polymorph on 20 anyways; you can get ~mid 30s base Str so with items, the Fighter will be soundly beat in that department. Same with Natural Armor. The question is if Fighter's feats can overcome the spells Adept will have access to and it might actually be interesitng.

Urpriest

2010-09-11, 05:57 PM

Nor is stacking them against one another one at a time because that's not how D&D is designed. It creates an illusion of unbalance when really the game was never intended to play that way.

So, if you want to play a game where you try to slam the square peg into the round hole and get frustrated all the time, that's cool I suppose. But that's all your doing in essence when you take away what the fighter would get or try to use the Teir System for anything even close to balance.

When talking about "balance" I agree that one-on one battles are irrelevant. However, you seem to imply that the Tier system is based on this kind of attitude, and it isn't. The Tier system is about which classes can contribute meaningfully to a party. At higher levels, how often does the fighter get to feel cool vs. the wizard, etc? How much of a party's strategy against a monster will involve each character's strengths? This is why certain lower Tier classes can beat higher Tier ones in a straight up fight: the Tier system is about versatility over the course of a campaign, a concern very much relevant to real play.

In any case, these concerns are irrelevant to this thread. This is not a challenge about whether the Adept or the Fighter is a better party member or more fun to play. This is an arena-style combat between the Platonic ideals of two classes. That's a perfectly viable subject for a D&D thread, in fact I would argue most D&D combat takes place this way, rather than in actual campaigns. Gamers spend more time arguing over the internet than in gaming sessions, after all.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-11, 06:03 PM

Nor is stacking them against one another one at a time because that's not how D&D is designed. It creates an illusion of unbalance when really the game was never intended to play that way.

So, if you want to play a game where you try to slam the square peg into the round hole and get frustrated all the time, that's cool I suppose. But that's all your doing in essence when you take away what the fighter would get or try to use the Teir System for anything even close to balance.

So compare them both vs equal scenarios. Level appropriate encounters, all that jazz.

If you don't like dueling, surely you can agree that "performs better against monsters" IS a way of showing imbalance, while playing pretty much as wizards intended.

Edit: General outcomes, assuming pretty much bog standard on either side.
Level 1, prolly fighter.
Level 2&3, definitely fighter.
Level 4-7: Advantage adept. Invisibility means he gets to pick his time and place, buff, and then use another spell of his choice to target one of the fighters weak saves. Also, mirror image is awesome.
Level 8-11: Pretty much same. The new spells gained are mostly pretty meh, but bestow curse is pretty handy. Contagion is also an option if the fighter really dumped a stat hard.
Level 12-15: Polymorph is pretty much a win. There's no longer any significant chance of the fighter getting lucky.
Level 16+: Baleful Polymorph = screwed fighter.

In addition, the caster gains more from feats, because it's easier for the caster to expand spell access via feats than the fighter can.

Innis Cabal

2010-09-11, 06:11 PM

In any case, these concerns are irrelevant to this thread. This is not a challenge about whether the Adept or the Fighter is a better party member or more fun to play. This is an arena-style combat between the Platonic ideals of two classes. That's a perfectly viable subject for a D&D thread, in fact I would argue most D&D combat takes place this way, rather than in actual campaigns. Gamers spend more time arguing over the internet than in gaming sessions, after all.

It's not, because Monsters are not balanced around 1 v 1. They are based on 4 v 1 with the core party being a Wizard (Who WoTC assumed would do blasting), Cleric (Who they assuemd would heal), Fighter and Rogue. That is the standard party. That is the standard set up for said party and that is what the CR system is based on.

So no. A one on one arena style battle -ISN'T- the best way to show "What makes a better team member or more fun to play." In fact...there's no test for that. It's all up to group dynamic (Which we can't test because we don't know the group or the players) and because there is no test for "FUN".

So compare them both vs equal scenarios. Level appropriate encounters, all that jazz.

If you don't like dueling, surely you can agree that "performs better against monsters" IS a way of showing imbalance, while playing pretty much as wizards intended.

See above. The game isn't designed for a Level 10 Fighter to solo a CR 10 monster. It's not how the system is designed, nor is it how Wizards of the Coast intended the game to go. D&D is a GROUP GAME something that alot of people seem to ignore or forget. It isn't -ABOUT- what one character can do against one mob better then the others. It dosn't take into account any set of variables.

Everyone is arguing in a vacuum with no DM, no realistic sense of what a full party of real people will accept, no real variance. It's all mathmatical. And that's cool because ya, it's possible. In a perfect set up with perfect everything. AKA: Never going to happen.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-11, 06:14 PM

If you want to run a series of elaborate simulations, showing each class as a member of a balanced party(make sure to use all possible permutations of balanced parties, to avoid possible bias), and compare the outcomes, be my guest.

Or you could read the tier system, and note that party utility was also considered.

Innis Cabal

2010-09-11, 06:16 PM

Urpriest

2010-09-11, 06:16 PM

It's not, because Monsters are not balanced around 1 v 1. They are based on 4 v 1 with the core party being a Wizard (Who WoTC assumed would do blasting), Cleric (Who they assuemd would heal), Fighter and Rogue. That is the standard party. That is the standard set up for said party and that is what the CR system is based on.

So no. A one on one arena style battle -ISN'T- the best way to show "What makes a better team member or more fun to play." In fact...there's no test for that. It's all up to group dynamic (Which we can't test because we don't know the group or the players) and because there is no test for "FUN".

You didn't read my post. If you're not going to read my post, don't quote me, it makes it look like you're responding to my points.

Zore

2010-09-11, 06:20 PM

T.G. Oskar

2010-09-11, 06:22 PM

Erm...if you're going to compare an Adept versus a Fighter, wouldn't it be better to compare them within different parts, ones that everyone can agree with?

For example: determine the strength of the Fighter vs. the Adept in terms of melee combat (the Fighter's melee potential vs. the Adept's defensive capabilities in melee, and viceversa), ranged combat, debuffs and SoDs (specifically, how the Adept's spells are resisted against the Fighter and how the Adept counters the Fighter's few tricks such as trip, bull rush, or grapple), class variants (mostly, Dungeon Crasher vs. Religious/Urban Adept) and determine the best based on how many tricks can be pulled by one class exclusively.

Going the path of "UMD Wizard", as mentioned before, means nothing since it relies on a sub-par tactic for both (IIRC the Adept doesn't have UMD as class skill), and one that while a viable way of playing, completely defeats the purpose of comparison since you're effectively neglecting the actual features of the class (even on a Rogue or Bard, which have UMD as class skills). You might as well compare the benefits of UMD cross-class vs. the Fighter or vs. any class, since that's the actual purpose (focusing to activate the spells from wands, scrolls and staffs in order to emulate the powers of spellcasters). So you can reliably negate the inclusion of wands, scrolls and staffs on the WBL buy-off, but you can allow magic items (that is out of the question). For purposes of a test, removing those three things should suffice; there are other ways to get magic items, some reasonably priced enough, some overpriced, and some horribly underpriced, to emulate spellcasting (but those are available to both and used equally, so no net gain from one against the other in that regard). Alternatively, use the ToS banlist as a guideline should suffice (though allowing the Fighter, of course).

However, and I believe this is something most people are unaware, is that the Adept is deceptively powerful for being an NPC class, given that while it gets an extremely short spell list, it does gain a reasonable mix of arcane and divine spells so as to justify taking Adept all 20 levels, even though it doesn't gain any other class features aside from Summon Familiar. In fact, the reason why the Warrior, the Expert and the Aristocrat are NPC classes is because they offer absolutely no class features. The Adept could be ascended to PC status and it wouldn't lose that much, actually.

Koury

2010-09-11, 06:24 PM

Jacque

2010-09-11, 06:26 PM

Whenever I am to gauge how useful a character class is in a party, I always ask myself "could another class have filled this role and perhaps even do more?". When it comes to the fighter, I almost always find a cleric to be more useful.

D&D might be a group game, but there's still some classes which generally are more useful and powerful than others.

Awnetu

2010-09-11, 06:33 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2010-09-11, 08:35 PM

Starting it out extremely long range or with the Adept on an unreachable perch would be just as much an advantage as starting it out in a clear, open room with the Adept within range for the Fighter to charge him right at the start. I'd put it in a large room of a structure in ruins, with rows of pillars and enough rubble on the floor that a Charge wouldn't be possible without some repositioning. The Adept may not get any armor or shield proficiencies, but he doesn't suffer arcane spell failure and he won't be making any attack rolls, so he'll at least have a tower shield and whatever armor he can afford. Assuming both are Human and both take Improved Initiative, with no flaws or traits:

Level 1: The Fighter can go Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot, or Power Attack and Weapon Focus, maybe something more complex but nothing springs to mind. The Adept will probably have Earth Devotion, with Sleep prepared twice. If the Adept wins initiative he'll probably step behind a pillar for cover, go prone, and begin casting Sleep if the Fighter is using a bow or thrown weapons, or begin casting Sleep and plan to use Earth Devotion to ruin an attempted charge if the Fighter has no ranged weapons. If the Fighter wins initiative he'll probably either full attack with Rapid Shot in hopes of an early victory or ready an action to shoot if the Adept starts casting, or he'll move into a position to be able to charge the next round since he'll get to act again before a Sleep spell finishes. In any case the Fighter's attacks will be at around +3 to +6, while the Adept's AC should be at least 17 with 12 Dex, leather armor, and a tower shield. The Fighter's Will save will be around +1, while the Adept's Sleep is at least DC 13. That puts the fighter more likely to miss than hit, and the Sleep more likely to work than fail, advantage: Adept.

Level 5: The Adept has a Familiar, which can ready to get in the way of a charge attack. He has Mirror Image and Web, and still has Sleep, and the Fighter only gets +1 more to his Will save unless he gets Iron Will. The Adept's success is entirely dependent on the Fighter failing a save, but he has a lot more tools to help him survive. I'd say this one is 50/50.

Level 10: Adept can have improved Familiar for either an Imp or a Quasit, plus undead minions via Animate Dead. He should spend all his 3rd level slots on Bestow Curse, which he would spam for a -4 to saves and then Sleep or just rely on his familiar's poison to disable the Fighter. The Fighter doesn't really have anything better going for him. Advantage: Adept.

Level 15: Polymorph says the Adept wins. He can turn himself into a War Troll and his Familiar into a Kelvezu, and they'll put out more damage individually than the Fighter is capable of. With Mirror Image, Bestow Curse, etc. the Fighter is sure to lose, Adept has an overwhelming advantage.

Level 20: Same as level 15, the Adept just has an even bigger advantage.

The Fighter is never at an advantage unless you put the battlefield to his advantage. Even if you do put it in an open area with clear terrain and put them within charging distance, the Adept is still likely to win the fight if he wins initiative at any level. (Adept wins initiative, starts casting Sleep, Fighter charges, Adept uses Earth Devotion and the Fighter must make two DC 15 Balance checks or he stops in the obstructed square and may even fall prone, Adept's Sleep spell goes off.) The Adept will still have a high enough AC that he'll probably survive the Fighter's initial attacks and be able to get his spell out.

JoshuaZ

2010-09-11, 08:42 PM

What? No, not exactly. The gameplan is mostly Polymorph on 20 anyways; you can get ~mid 30s base Str so with items, the Fighter will be soundly beat in that department. Same with Natural Armor. The question is if Fighter's feats can overcome the spells Adept will have access to and it might actually be interesitng.

Right, I forgot about polymorph being on the adept's spell list.

Eldariel

2010-09-11, 08:44 PM

Sleep has a HD limit of 4, so it's not a factor for levels 5+. The Adept either has to bruteforce with attacks against a Webbed target or something like Scorching Ray.

deuxhero

2010-09-11, 08:46 PM

If the Adept chooses ver magic items well (Raiment of the Four) they win 100% a few levels early.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-11, 09:00 PM

How does math make the game unbearable? The entire game is based on math! If not for math its literally just freeform, which while good for a minority of people, is terrible at conflict resolution and not a collaborative exercise for the majority of people.

Er, yes. If counting from 1 to 6 is sufficient math to ruin the game for him....D&D 3.5 is not the system for him.

Seriously.

JoshuaZ

2010-09-11, 09:04 PM

Er, yes. If counting from 1 to 6 is sufficient math to ruin the game for him....D&D 3.5 is not the system for him.

Seriously.

I don't know. I'm a math grad student and counting is *hard*. Let me try to count to 6:

1,2,3 -2, i, 4, e, 5, blarblegarble, 6.

Did I do that right?

Schylerwalker

2010-09-11, 09:06 PM

Well, one thing is apparent so far; even with their extremely short, limited spell list, it's plain to see that an adept has WAY more options than a fighter. Though I'd say that having undead minions with him before the fight is a little...shenanigan-y? Though I suppose it IS the adept taking advantage of a class feature, not WBL...well, at least not really.

The thing is, the adept doesn't have a lot of hitpoints, and attack bonuses are a lot easier to make big than Armor Classes, as far as my experience has been. And let's take into account Mageslayer and reach weapons, mind.

137beth

2010-09-11, 09:27 PM

At level 1, if the Adept prepares Sleep and wins initiative, there's some chance the Fighter loses (basically the chance that the Fighter has of missing one attack, coupled with the chance that the Fighter fails the Will save).

Edit: The problem with Sleep is that its one-round casting time means you have to either be out of range of a charge (and out of range of a ranged attack, if the Fighter has one), or lucky enough that the Fighter misses the first attack. The Will save is great, but keep in mind that a level 1 Fighter should be hitting at around +4 or +5, especially on a charge - the Adept's AC doesn't give much better of a chance than the Fighter's Will save.

At level 5, Web + Scorching Ray means that the Adept has a very small chance of winning. Web, however, means that the Adept has almost no chance of losing, and Invisibility also is a near-guarantee that the Fighter can't kill the Adept reliably.

At level 10, Web + Scorching Ray + Lightning Bolt offers some chance of success with lucky rolls on damage. The fight likely comes down to initiative, since Web is very difficult to aim unless you start from decent range.

Okay, much of this varies depending on the arena. First, if we ban magic weapons/armor, that's pretty unfair to the fighter...while if we place the arena in an anti-magic field, the adept has no chance of winning. I will assume that magic items ARE allowed, and that spells function normally.
At level 5, there is a major problem with web. Specifically, it requires 2 solid objects to attach the web to. If they are fighting in an empty arena, this may be impossible. As for invisibility, the adept cannot attack while invisible. Since it only lasts for 5 minutes at level 5 (50 rounds), the fighter could technically just wait around for it to wear off.

Kantolin

2010-09-11, 09:42 PM

In a duel setting, I'm not as firmly convinced that the fighter is quite as bad off as is being implied.

In a Adept in a party vs Fighter in a party it may be closer, mind you, but a fighter does have the advantage in a duel that a couple popular fighter builds (Uberchargers in particular) are very effective at killing your target. And while I do agree that UMD shenanigans or assuming obscure magic items makes the challenge moot, both a Fighter and an Adept have generic events they're likely enough to run into such that they can deal with this.

For example, flying enemies become increasingly common, so both are going to have something they can do about it (or at least be aware). Adepts, like wizards, are weak to grappling and thus I'd assume most adepts would try to get something to deal with this. If the fighter wants to rescue his will save, he can jump for Steadfast Determination (I mean... he has the feats for it) and a cloak of resistance.

Anyway, the other question is: Do the two know they're going to fight each other? As if I'm specifically building a fighter to beat an adept (and vice versa), things would change than if I was going out adventuring. If I knew I was fighting an adept as a fighter, I'd diving tackle steadfast determination and iron will, ignore my armour entirely, and focus on making myself have a good (or at least very decent) touch AC. Maybe mage slayer with reach/tripping.

So on that assumption, at level one the fighter can have steadfast determination (Or Iron Will, if his constitution isn't that significantly better than his wisdom, which it probably is).

And then notably, starting from level 5, the adept doesn't have spells to OHKO the fighter until Baleful polymorph, which targets the fighter's strongest saves. The fighter, meanwhile, can increase the amount of ways by which he can OHKO the adept, in which all that becomes required is meeting any of those requirements. The fighter can be an ubercharger /and/ an archer, and if either of those occurs teh adept could die.

And at higher levels, get those boots which allow him to charge around corners and the like if he needs that. Or be an archer build that can take down a balor in one round. And if the adept spends a turn using polymorph, the fighter can spend that round charging shenanigansing or archering at him or something - that precious turn of buffing in range of the fighter can be fatal.

If the adept has time to buff up, then it depends more on magic items - the fighter is likely to have something of haste and something of flight, and may have a couple other random buffing items, but hey. If the adept doesn't have time to buff up then the fighter gets a big advantage - the adept can then become a better fighter than the fighter (If he took combat feats), but a fighter can probably spend that extra turn beating up whatever form the adept chose to take that round.

So I dunno. If it's just 'kill the other', the fighter gets a big edge. If it comes to 'overall usefulness' then things may change a bit, but hey.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-11, 09:53 PM

And then notably, starting from level 5, the adept doesn't have spells to OHKO the fighter until Baleful polymorph, which targets the fighter's strongest saves. The fighter, meanwhile, can increase the amount of ways by which he can OHKO the adept, in which all that becomes required is meeting any of those requirements. The fighter can be an ubercharger /and/ an archer, and if either of those occurs teh adept could die.

Assuming a standard opening of Invisibility, followed by Mirror Image, the above should be pretty unlikely. At a minimum, the chance of a one hit kill is reduced dramatically, and it basically ensures that unless the fighter wins init, and has clear charge to the starting adept location, the adept gets in the first hit. Always.

Regular old polymorph can be used to get all sorts of interesting things, too. Some of which could either further reduce the odds of being one hit killed, or increase the odds of swiftly flattening the fighter. In short, by the time the adept fires at the fighter, he's already won.

Knaight

2010-09-11, 09:55 PM

Or I could disregard the Teir system for the crock it is, and play the game and have fun instead of worrying about Teir's and Builds and math and all sorts of other things that make the game unbearable. And urge other people to do so as well. Which I think I'll do.

Sure, if you don't want to understand the mechanics of the game you play, and have no interest in the design behind it. But some of us actually find the design aspect interesting, and want to know how things work in a hobby we spend this much time on, and the Tier system is extremely useful for that. Its easier to have fun with a good game than a bad one, and its easier to have fun with a bad game if you understand it and know what its weak spots are and how to avoid them. Class balance in default 3.x is one of those weak spots, and your notion that we should just play and attempt to stay ignorant of anything beyond session events falls apart in light of the idea that understanding of a game can make it more fun.

Furthermore, D&D is not the only system on the market. There are tens of thousands, and the better one understands more of them, the better one can choose which to play in a given situation. Burying your head in the sand and ignoring D&Ds poor balance when picking which game isn't going to help anything.

T.G. Oskar

2010-09-12, 06:47 AM

I don't know. I'm a math grad student and counting is *hard*. Let me try to count to 6:

1,2,3 -2, i, 4, e, 5, blarblegarble, 6.

Did I do that right?

Of course not!

...Shouldn't it be i, 1, 2, e, 3, π, 4, 5, 6?

Unless "blarblegarble" is a new imaginary number that allows mathematicians to unlock the secrets of arcane casting or something :P

But yeah: just handwaving the Fighter and claiming group balance > individual balance is not enough. That is showing a lack of understanding of the Tier system, if not of the system itself. By higher levels, people have found that there are abilities that allow a character to bypass some obstacles with greater ease than with others. For example: spider climb is ages better than the Climb skill because you get a climb speed, whereas the Climb ability merely turns your base land speed into an effective climb speed, but it imposes some restrictions towards it. By 3rd or 4th level, the Climb skill is pretty much useless. Same as for Jump; the range of distance you need to cover various pits and crevasses becomes irrelevant with fly, or really, any ability that grants you flight. Thus, people may invest on early levels on Climb and Jump, but on later levels they want stuff that doesn't involve a risk (much like in real life). That is what makes full spellcasters so effective in team combat; they can cover for other team members, sometimes at little to no risk whatsoever. The Fighter suffers in that the only effective thing it can do is attack, and sadly it needs far too much to be effective in comparison to a Wizard or Sorcerer, when measured in different conditions.

So no, it's not that the people here want to enforce a vision of the game in which other classes are useless; the idea is to allow people to see that some classes are more effective on certain actions than others, and the amount of effort a class needs to make itself useful in a team. The fact that the Paladin, for example, is a Tier 5 character doesn't mean it's useless, but that it requires a much deeper line of thought to be effective, or else fall behind upon the rest. The Tier system only breaks up when everyone plays its intended role: the fighter does fighting, the rogue is the skill monkey, the cleric is the devoted healer, and the wizard is the devoted blaster. In that case, parity is technically achieved because no one is delving on the steps of the other. But, when a rogue gets levels in UMD, or the Cleric suddenly gets Divine Power, or Find Traps, or the Magic domain, or when the Wizard gets stuff like Detect Secret Doors, Greater Magic Weapon, Alter Self, Polymorph, Mirror Image, and others, the classes start to dabble in the areas of others. In that case, the Fighter suffers because it can't dabble into the areas of the others without a massive effort (such as devoting all of its WBL to behave like a Wizard or Cleric via UMD, or cross-class skills to behave like a Rogue).

Zen Master

2010-09-12, 07:41 AM

The Fighter is never at an advantage unless you put the battlefield to his advantage. Even if you do put it in an open area with clear terrain and put them within charging distance, the Adept is still likely to win the fight if he wins initiative at any level. (Adept wins initiative, starts casting Sleep, Fighter charges, Adept uses Earth Devotion and the Fighter must make two DC 15 Balance checks or he stops in the obstructed square and may even fall prone, Adept's Sleep spell goes off.) The Adept will still have a high enough AC that he'll probably survive the Fighter's initial attacks and be able to get his spell out.

Hm ... to me, it seems you're designing the battlefield specifically to the fighters disadvantage. But nevermind.

If the adept is in view of the fighter first round, he will either have to accept rolling concentration to overcome the damage from the fighters ranged attack. If he choses to move into cover, he won't be casting any full-round spells. At this point, it's pretty much a question of how much the terrain is designed to hinder the fighter: Can he move back in sight of the adept, to keep using ranged, can he move into charge position - or has the map been laid out to entirely make him impotent?

Spells are nice, tho, no denying that. But this is an adept - if the fighter gets any chance at all, the adept dies in a bloody mess.

Of course, all this rests somewhat on my denial of the existance of Earth Devotion, whatever that is. Because in a contest such as this, it should most definitely be core only. To my thinking, at least.

ScionoftheVoid

2010-09-12, 07:52 AM

Because in a contest such as this, it should most definitely be core only. To my thinking, at least.

Just to comment on this, the Adept gets no new spells out of Core (except by DM-fiat) whilst the Fighter gets far more options for all those bonus feats, including things like the Mage-Slayer line. Against full casters that chain is not the greatest, but it should help considerably more against the Adept. Admittedly the Adept gets more feats as well (like Earth Devotion, which is in Complete Champion if I'm correct, though I don't have the book and haven't seen the feat before), but the Fighter also gets more general feats, and there is a lot of power creep in melee feats outside of Core (limited a bit by the number of trap feats also introduced), so it balances out more-or-less.

Overall the challenge gets easier for the Fighter the further you get from Core. This may or may not be a good thing, but it is worth mentioning. Note that once the Adept gets Polymorph nothing the Fighter gets really catches up, even out of Core.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-12, 08:07 AM

Hm ... to me, it seems you're designing the battlefield specifically to the fighters disadvantage. But nevermind.

If the adept is in view of the fighter first round, he will either have to accept rolling concentration to overcome the damage from the fighters ranged attack. If he choses to move into cover, he won't be casting any full-round spells. At this point, it's pretty much a question of how much the terrain is designed to hinder the fighter: Can he move back in sight of the adept, to keep using ranged, can he move into charge position - or has the map been laid out to entirely make him impotent?

Spells are nice, tho, no denying that. But this is an adept - if the fighter gets any chance at all, the adept dies in a bloody mess.

You can move and still begin casting a 1 rnd spell. Doing so results it consuming the std action of the turn in which it finishes. Its obscure, I admit, but perfectly legal.

Zen Master

2010-09-12, 08:08 AM

Overall the challenge gets easier for the Fighter the further you get from Core. This may or may not be a good thing, but it is worth mentioning. Note that once the Adept gets Polymorph nothing the Fighter gets really catches up, even out of Core.

The challenge for the fighter really is not in killing the adept - it's in getting close enough to do so. As far as I can see, there never is a point at which the fighter cannot kill the adept in a single round - possibly in a single hit.

The challenge is to get charge, see through or disbelieve illusions, and to reliably detect an invisible enemy. With that in place, the adept might as well just forfeit the fight.

An of course, polymorph. What, in core, is so terrible that it should allow the adept to beat the fighter? A hydra - at level 5, for instance? I must confess I fail to see how that's terribly relevant. It's still dead in less than one round.

Hm ... it's grapple modifier would be fairly painful tho. That would require some attention.

Zen Master

2010-09-12, 08:09 AM

You can move and still begin casting a 1 rnd spell. Doing so results it consuming the std action of the turn in which it finishes. Its obscure, I admit, but perfectly legal.

Really? It's not that I doubt your word, but do you have a source for that?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2010-09-12, 09:01 AM

Let's assume there are two rows of pillars down the length of a rectangular room. There's a 10 ft. wide door at each end through which the combatants enter, and they each begin in one of the four squares within a step of their door. If the Adept chooses to begin as far to one side as possible, he should be within a 5 ft. step of getting cover from a pillar. As I said, putting it in a completely open, clear area gives the Fighter just as much advantage as if you'd put the Adept on an unreachable balcony with plenty of both cover and concealment right from the start.

Also note that he can afford a tower shield and leather armor, and can put at least 12 into Dex for an AC of 17 in the open. The Fighter will have a +1 BAB, assuming +3 for Dex, and +1 for Weapon Focus, he has +5 to hit a 17 AC so a 45% chance of success. The Adept has a 55% chance of not even having to roll a Concentration check. Assuming he 5 ft. steps to get cover from a pillar, and drops to prone as a free action, that's an extra +8 AC against the Fighter's ranged attacks. That's 25 AC vs a +5 to hit, so he has to get a natural 20 just to shoot the Adept while he's casting.

Earth Devotion allows him to cause one five foot square per 3 character levels (adjacent to each other) within 20 ft. to become difficult terrain as an immediate action, once per day. Using this ability shouldn't interrupt his concentration on casting Sleep. Casting a 1 round cast time spell takes a full round action on your turn, and you must continue concentrating until the start of your next turn but spend no additional actions. Normally casting another spell or activating a magic item would interrupt that, but this is a supernatural ability with no verbal or somatic components, it takes little more than a reflexive thought to activate it, no more distracting than reacting to dodge an attack. If the Fighter is charging through a square which suddenly becomes difficult terrain, he has to make two Balance checks or be forced to stop. Failing by 5 or more on either check causes him to fall prone, as per the Balance skill. He's already spent his full round action on the charge attempt, so his turn will end without anything else happening.

Non-core feats gives the Adept a bit more versatility, while giving the Fighter an exponentially greater power boost. Both characters would view a core only limitation as unfair, so non-core should be available to both.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 09:49 AM

Are there Fighters out there that don't boost initiative and take Mage Slayer? Because, really, against any lockdown build, Adept has no choice at all.
Lack of high level slots and of an expandaded spell list limit his swift action repertoire. Of course, a ubercharger builds also wins at first round, no questions asked.
Even if you consider uses in a party, Fighter wins. Locking an opponent down or taking hits helps a lot more than low level spells that probably won't affect the target any way.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 11:02 AM

The challenge for the fighter really is not in killing the adept - it's in getting close enough to do so. As far as I can see, there never is a point at which the fighter cannot kill the adept in a single round - possibly in a single hit.

The challenge is to get charge, see through or disbelieve illusions, and to reliably detect an invisible enemy. With that in place, the adept might as well just forfeit the fight.

An of course, polymorph. What, in core, is so terrible that it should allow the adept to beat the fighter? A hydra - at level 5, for instance? I must confess I fail to see how that's terribly relevant. It's still dead in less than one round.

Hm ... it's grapple modifier would be fairly painful tho. That would require some attention.

The Adept gains polymorph at 12th level. At that level (CL 12) he can polymorph into a twelve-headed cryohydra and then fire a Reflex DC 21 blast that hits for 36d6 cold damage (average 126). The Fighter will probably have a CON of 22 (16 starting, +2 racial, +4 item - it won't be a primary stat for him) for 12d10+72 HP (average 138). After the ice blast, the Fighter has ~12 hit points left, unless he gets really lucky on his save.
Oh, and don't forget that the Hydra attacks with all of its heads on an attack of opportunity and can make AoOs while flat footed. Charge in? Eat 12 bites, probably sealing the Fighter's fate against the ice blast if not outright killing him.
Also the hydra is invisible and has mirror copies of itself.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 11:09 AM

The Adept gains polymorph at 12th level.
A 12th level Fighter does not need more than one full-attack against the adept. If the adept wins initiative, he gets to cast polymorph first. The he gets his attacks of opportunity during the charge.
...and then he is dead.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 11:14 AM

A 12th level Fighter does not need more than one full-attack against the adept. If the adept wins initiative, he gets to cast polymorph first. The he gets his attacks of opportunity during the charge.
...and then he is dead.
Wrong.

Adept wins initiative (he can afford to pump DEX more than the Fighter, after all) and casts invisibility. He then moves. Where did he move? Have fun finding out. Everything else comes after that until suddenly, cryohydra ice blast.

Besides, how is your fighter full-attacking on a charge, and avoiding the 12-bite AoO salvo, some of which could be touch attacks for grapple? Are we dipping barbarian now?

In the interest of mathematics, 12*(2d8+6) is 180 average damage. That eats the fighter straight up.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 11:21 AM

Wrong.

Adept wins initiative (he can afford to pump DEX more than the Fighter, after all) and casts invisibility. He then moves. Where did he move? Have fun finding out. Everything else comes after that until suddenly, cryohydra ice blast.

Oh, does he get the bonus feats for Improved Initiative, Thug, Quick Reconneiter, Lucky Start and the like? Because the Fighter does.
Also, you are not even considering an archer Fighter. Though that removes charging from the equation, it's still enough to kill an Adept in a single round.
Adept and Fighter should get the same Dex, I believe, considering Strenght the Fighter's 'casting stat'. Thing is, the Fighter can (and should) get a lot of initiative boosters while still using his bonus feats to deal damage. If you add Zhentarim Fighter to the mix, it just gets silly. The adept can't even fight back.

Besides, how is your fighter full-attacking on a charge, and avoiding the 12-bite AoO salvo, some of which could be touch attacks for grapple? Are we dipping barbarian now?
There are other forms of pounce, be it from race, feats or spells. Let's just ignore that, then.
How is your adept hitting the fighter with those Attacks of Opportunity? You hit at 6 (base attack) + 6 (Str modifier). That's +12. We are talking about a 12th level character here - a frontliner at that. You should expect at least AC 26 from him (let's say, +3 from Dex, +8 from armor (mithral full plate) +3 from an animated heavy shield, +2 from a ring of protection and +2 from amulet of natural armor, from the top of my head... that does not even account for magical armor or nimbleness, which would let you keep more from your Dex). That's not a sure hit. You hit less than 50% of the time, really. Even less if he has, say, a minor cloak of displacement.
Grappling? That might get you something. You have +20 modifier, after all. Of course, that destroys your damage potential. You need to attack at -4 to use natural weapons in a grapple, so you'd be hitting the Fighter even less. Grappling and hydras is not so hot as you think, anyway - grappling works over iterative attacks from base attack bonus, with flurry of blows adding a few. Hydras' don't get grappling goodies - once you are in a grapple, you need to make grapple checks, not attacks. So you'd get 2 grapple checks only. You could slowly squeeze him to death, unless he hits you (and he will, with armor spikes or something). Enter Pierce Magical Protection. Too bad Polymorph increased your armor class - it was just dispelled.

Frozen_Feet

2010-09-12, 11:24 AM

Aren't AoO normally only granted when a creature moves out of someone's threat range? My memory is hazy, but charging an enemy shouldn't trigger AoOs unless the Adept has specific feats for that.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 11:26 AM

Invisibility isn't a round/level spell, the adept can be assumed to come pre-buffed, but even if it's not...Archery has such pathetic damage on a fighter that it doesn't need to be taken into account. A single charge, again, isn't enough to kill him without ubercheese, after which 5ft step, cryohydra, blender.

Aren't AoO normally only granted when a creature moves out of someone's threat range? My memory is hazy, but charging an enemy shouldn't trigger AoOs unless the Adept has specific feats for that.
AoO is granted when a creature moves while inside threat range.

The Glyphstone

2010-09-12, 11:33 AM

Invisibility isn't a round/level spell, the adept can be assumed to come pre-buffed, but even if it's not...Archery has such pathetic damage on a fighter that it doesn't need to be taken into account. A single charge, again, isn't enough to kill him without ubercheese, after which 5ft step, cryohydra, blender.

AoO is granted when a creature moves while inside threat range.

Or, to elaborate, since I think you're both saying the same thing, AoO is not provoked by moving into a threatened square. It is only provoked by moving out of a threatened square (which can be into another threatened square). Thus, a monster with Reach, such as a hydra, will get an AoO against a fighter charging who does not also have a Reach weapon.

Coidzor

2010-09-12, 11:37 AM

If you add Zhentarim Fighter to the mix, it just gets silly. The adept can't even fight back.

You still have to threaten in melee in order to use swift action demoralize, don't you? Also, it only gives shaken without other sources of fear.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 11:38 AM

Or, to elaborate, since I think you're both saying the same thing, AoO is not provoked by moving into a threatened square. It is only provoked by moving out of a threatened square (which can be into another threatened square). Thus, a monster with Reach, such as a hydra, will get an AoO against a fighter charging who does not also have a Reach weapon.

Hm, I'd forgotten. Simply having a reach weapon prevents all AoOs from the hydra.

You still have to threaten in melee in order to use swift action demoralize, don't you? Also, it only gives shaken without other sources of fear.
Reach weapon and Imperious Command are good friends.

Invisibility isn't a round/level spell, the adept can be assumed to come pre-buffed, but even if it's not...Archery has such pathetic damage on a fighter that it doesn't need to be taken into account. A single charge, again, isn't enough to kill him without ubercheese, after which 5ft step, cryohydra, blender.

Yeah, it's a minute level spell. The kind of thing you cast just before an encounter. If you consider that the Adept has ambushed the Fighter with Invisibility, then, yes, of course he is at an advantage. Everyone is at an advantage while ambushing. Of course, invisibility is trivial with Pierce Magical Concealment anyway.

Flickerdart, I usually hold everything you post with great regard, so if you will, I believe we could do this a lot easier by presenting full builds to compare - maybe borrowing the suggested levels from the OP. Call it a challenge if you want. I believe it could be quite entertaining.

Eldariel

2010-09-12, 11:39 AM

Archery has such pathetic damage on a fighter that it doesn't need to be taken into account.

I'm not going to comment on anything else but a properly built Fighter 12 can output decent damage in archery. You have Thug+Education+Knowledge Devotion, Ranged Weapon Mastery & perhaps GWS or such trash for +11 per attack (plus Strength plus Magic), and Arrow Storm + Rapid Shot for 3 bonus attacks and Woodland Archer to scale the To Hit as necessary.

Even just dealing 20 per arrow (should be trivial without magic items), he can easily reach 100 damage a turn, and since he's Dex-focused his Initiative will be good. Hit'n'Run Fighter would add +2 more to the Initiative, though it'd make getting the skillpoints for KD harder. If we use magic items (Boots of Speed, Strongarm Bracers, Splitting bow or Raptor Arrows, stat boosters), we should reach at least 200 damage a turn to relevant AC (Iono, 30; not doing the build right now but the number sounds about right) easily.

Now, I'm in the camp that Adept has the edge, specifically thanks to Polymorph & al. (Invis is 10 min/level so it can frankly be on all day in mid-levels already), but I feel there's no point in selling Fighter short in the few things it can do somewhat.

Coidzor

2010-09-12, 11:43 AM

Reach weapon and Imperious Command are good friends.

True, though it seems like it gets a bit MAD with the 15 Cha component and the other fighter obligations.

Would whatever standard PB and WBL get that hit without gimping the other areas? Although, I guess if you focus on the intimidate route that does become the schtick...

:smallconfused:

Urpriest

2010-09-12, 11:46 AM

Should Zhentarim Fighter really be used for this? It was my understanding that a Zhenatrim Fighter (or at least a Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher) is Tier 4, and the intent here is to compare two Tier 5's, correct?

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 11:47 AM

True, though it seems like it gets a bit MAD with the 15 Cha component and the other fighter obligations.

Would whatever standard PB and WBL get that hit without gimping the other areas? Although, I guess if you focus on the intimidate route that does become the schtick...

:smallconfused:

Getting the Cha 15 shouldn't be that much of a problem with magical items, I guess.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 12:24 PM

Flickerdart, I usually hold everything you post with great regard, so if you will, I believe we could do this a lot easier by presenting full builds to compare - maybe borrowing the suggested levels from the OP. Call it a challenge if you want. I believe it could be quite entertaining.
Heh, I'm flattered. Unfortunately, I don't have the time at the moment for building very much.

I was under the impression that it was agreed upon that the Adept becomes at an increasingly more severe disadvantage as more and more splats are added. Naturally, once the Fighter starts swapping out for real class features, the Adept is going to be overwhelmed at a certain point. Intimidate isn't the way to do it, though, I don't think - Wisdom is the Adept's main stat, and bonuses to fear saves aren't exactly difficult to get...

I'm reasonably certain that the Adept has some ability to add spells to its list though (runestaves?) but that's not really testing the class.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 12:28 PM

I'm reasonably certain that the Adept has some ability to add spells to its list though (runestaves?) but that's not really testing the class.
Runestaves are arcane-only. Adept is a divine caster.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 12:36 PM

So they are. Now that I think about it, traditional divine casters usually have more expansive lists...there probably aren't many ways to add spells to them, and Adepts don't even get domains.

PId6

2010-09-12, 01:04 PM

Adept can get lots of spells known through domain dipping. They can easily qualify for Sovereign Speaker, for example, which is more than enough to get what you want. Add in some Sacred Exorcist (thanks to Good Domain) and you can throw in DMM: Persist.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 01:07 PM

We're doing multiclassing now? Then the Fighter can grab Pounce from Barbarian and bad things happen. :smalltongue:

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 01:07 PM

So they are. Now that I think about it, traditional divine casters usually have more expansive lists...there probably aren't many ways to add spells to them, and Adepts don't even get domains.

They could get domains from prestige classes. Divine Oracle and Contemplatie spring to mind.

PId6

2010-09-12, 01:12 PM

We're doing multiclassing now? Then the Fighter can grab Pounce from Barbarian and bad things happen. :smalltongue:
PrCs that mostly just advance the original class's features are a bit different from taking levels in completely separate classes. Besides, Barbarian dip doesn't even change all that much. Fighter can already pretty much guarantee OHKO on a charge if he ever gets a clear line of charge and hit on the attack. Pounce just makes that a bit more certain; not a huge difference.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 01:18 PM

PrCs that mostly just advance the original class's features are a bit different from taking levels in completely separate classes. Besides, Barbarian dip doesn't even change all that much. Fighter can already pretty much guarantee OHKO on a charge if he ever gets a clear line of charge and hit on the attack. Pounce just makes that a bit more certain; not a huge difference.

I'd have to agree. An adept is lighter than a bard on spells, specially on the defensive side. It's quite easy for a fighter to shut him down, if not outright kill him, with a single strike.
That is, outside core. Core-only, I'd think you have to rely on archery. Once the adept gets polymorph, get a pegasus mount. At least hydras are no longer an issue and a pegasus can outmaneuver most of the core heavy-hitters at 12 hit dice.

ericgrau

2010-09-12, 02:47 PM

Level 1, Fighter wins easily. At level 5 the fighter still has an edge, the adept can only get 2 2nd level spells off (assuming Elite stat array, he'll have at least a Wisdom of 16 at that point).

Level 10 is dicey for the Fighter - Adept now has Bestow Curse, Animate Dead, and some other tricks. Adept is most likely going to win.

Adept gets access to Polymorph at level 12. He wins hands down after that.

Because animating an EL 7 encounter (3 zombie minotaurs at most) is so dangerous at level 10. Also costs 900 gp that you don't get back when they eventually die. By the time the adept gets dangerous spells they are spells that generate melee opponents which the fighter easily out-stats. Even polymorphing his poor BAB low HP adept self. In a party it might be a little more useful to polymorph someone else, but it caps out after only 3 levels with no improved version to replace it.

The spells I really see making a difference are web and wall of stone. These are the kinds of spells that really trivialize an encounter into two easily manageable halves. But web is an early level spell where the fighter trounces all over a wizard even w/ good control spells. By the time he gets wall of stone he's level 16 and by then the monsters are teleporting, can't fit behind the wall or can outright smash it.

Though maybe even playing along and making the comparison is taking this a bit too far. I want to see someone post commoner with UMD versus fighter next. It's as shame the impact these comments have on real campaigns too, where nobody I've ever heard of notices any major issues except when the DM is nerfing their wizard into the ground and they have no idea why the DM is keeping them from being able to do anything. Or many groups talk to or kick out the power gamers and rules lawyers.

Zen Master

2010-09-12, 05:03 PM

Non-core feats gives the Adept a bit more versatility, while giving the Fighter an exponentially greater power boost. Both characters would view a core only limitation as unfair, so non-core should be available to both.

I completely disagree. You use non-core to allow the adept to rid the fighter of his one chance of winning (well - unless he's an archer), his charge - then conclude that non-core is in everyone's interest.

The fighter can one-shot or one-round kill the adept in core - no more is needed. Where is the fighters interest in going outside core?

The Adept gains polymorph at 12th level. At that level (CL 12) he can polymorph into a twelve-headed cryohydra and then fire a Reflex DC 21 blast that hits for 36d6 cold damage (average 126).

Oh, by level 12 I'm fairly sure the fighter can find some way to avoid those AoO's. He could either have similar reach, tumble, or be invisible. Or any one of a number of other options.

Well - getting similar reach might be hard in core. Without dipping or some such.

Also the hydra is invisible and has mirror copies of itself.

No - why would it? Unless we assume the fighter starts out similarly buffed.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 05:10 PM

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 05:22 PM

Oh, by level 12 I'm fairly sure the fighter can find some way to avoid those AoO's. He could either have similar reach, tumble, or be invisible. Or any one of a number of other options.
The part you quoted didn't mention AoOs. It mentioned massive damage from a breath weapon that has a fair chance of offing the fighter in one shot. Also, tumble, really? With cross-class ranks and probably heavy armour? Yeah, right. Invisibility can be covered by see invisibility, which is an adept spell and not UMD magic.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 05:29 PM

Invisibility can be covered by see invisibility, which is an adept spell and not UMD magic.

Invisibility could simply be a potion. So could see invisibility.

The part you quoted didn't mention AoOs. It mentioned massive damage from a breath weapon that has a fair chance of offing the fighter in one shot.
Not exactly. See:

Each jet deals 3d6 points of cold damage per head
Each jet does damage seperately. That means energy resistance applies separetly for each one. Energy resistance 10 ignores most of the damage even on a failed save. That said, roling 12 saves can result in a 1, which may result in losing some equipment. Nah, cold only does 1/4 damage to objects anyway.

Koury

2010-09-12, 05:50 PM

Invisibility could simply be a potion. So could see invisibility.

False. See Invisibility is a personal range spell.

DragoonWraith

2010-09-12, 05:55 PM

Each jet does damage seperately. That means energy resistance applies separetly for each one. Energy resistance 10 ignores most of the damage even on a failed save.
Energy Resistance is per round, not per attack.

true_shinken

2010-09-12, 05:59 PM

False. See Invisibility is a personal range spell.

I thought this ruling only applied to Pathfinder.

Koury

2010-09-12, 06:04 PM

I thought this ruling only applied to Pathfinder.

I don't believe so. *double checks*

Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd.

Benefit
You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

You'll note there are no personal range spells on the list of potions for sale (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm). I acknowledge it is not a complete list, but yeah.

Frosty

2010-09-12, 06:24 PM

Energy Resistance is per round, not per attack.
That's not what the Monster Manual says.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 06:36 PM

Each jet does damage seperately. That means energy resistance applies separetly for each one. Energy resistance 10 ignores most of the damage even on a failed save. That said, roling 12 saves can result in a 1, which may result in losing some equipment. Nah, cold only does 1/4 damage to objects anyway.
No. There's only one jet at a time. It deals 3d6 per head. If there were 12 jets, they'd still deal 3d6 per head, which would be ridiculous.

Also remember that there is a familiar that the adept can share spells with. Spells like invisibility and polymorph. So you're looking at two jets, and two targets...

137beth

2010-09-12, 06:55 PM

Assuming a standard opening of Invisibility, followed by Mirror Image, the above should be pretty unlikely. At a minimum, the chance of a one hit kill is reduced dramatically, and it basically ensures that unless the fighter wins init, and has clear charge to the starting adept location, the adept gets in the first hit. Always.

Regular old polymorph can be used to get all sorts of interesting things, too. Some of which could either further reduce the odds of being one hit killed, or increase the odds of swiftly flattening the fighter. In short, by the time the adept fires at the fighter, he's already won.

Invisibility is just a time waster. The adept can't attack while invisible, so the fighter can just wait around for it to wear off. As for mirror image:
" An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)"
If you use invisibility, mirror image is meaningless. If you use JUST mirror image, then you can pose an actual threat. But the adept is still much weaker.

As for (regular) Polymorph, it only works on a WILLING target, making it useless when used against an enemy.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 06:59 PM

Invisibility is just a time waster. The adept can't attack while invisible, so the fighter can just wait around for it to wear off.
The adept can do a number of things that aren't attacks. Buffing, for example, or moving, or web. The mirror image is there if the fighter gains a means of seeing invisible.

As for (regular) Polymorph, it only works on a WILLING target, making it useless when used against an enemy.
Nobody is using polymorph on the fighter. They're using it on the adept and his familiar to make hydras.

137beth

2010-09-12, 07:08 PM

The adept can do a number of things that aren't attacks. Buffing, for example, or moving, or web. The mirror image is there if the fighter gains a means of seeing invisible.

Nobody is using polymorph on the fighter. They're using it on the adept and his familiar to make hydras.

I see, thanks for the clarification. Web, first off, has variable effectiveness depending on the terrain. If the arena is empty, there would be nothing to attach a web to, making it useless. Since no one agreed on what the arena is like, though, the web is something that "may work, may not." Also, in general, polymorph's usefulness depends on whether you are using the core rules, or some customized polymorph system. Now, obviously, having a house-rule that nerfs any form of magic is a pretty cheap way to say the fighter wins. The question remains about what to do with the inconsistencies caused by core polymorph rules.

Schylerwalker

2010-09-12, 07:08 PM

Good thing the adept can cast Baleful Polymorph as well.

DragoonWraith

2010-09-12, 07:11 PM

That's not what the Monster Manual says.
From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy):

A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity.

Each resistance ability is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. It doesn’t matter whether the damage has a mundane or magical source.

When resistance completely negates the damage from an energy attack, the attack does not disrupt a spell. This resistance does not stack with the resistance that a spell might provide.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2010-09-12, 07:14 PM

First of all, Polymorphing into a Cryohydra doesn't grant you its breath weapon. That's a supernatural ability, and Polymorph only grants extraordinary special attacks. Second, you can get Tumble instead of Ride (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) as a class skill, so the Fighter should never be provoking any AoOs by the time the Adept gets Polymorph.

The Adept gets Deeper Darkness, which lasts one day per caster level. He should be able to enter the arena with it already active. He can have max cross-class ranks in Hide, and the Fighter an equal number of cross-class ranks in Spot, and due to the distance between them the Fighter will have less than a 50% chance just to see where he's standing. He can buff himself with defensive spells, and then Lesser Rod of Maximized Lightning Bolt or Scorching Ray, Circlet of Rapid Casting a Web (or a second Maximized Scorching Ray), and move behind whatever cover is nearby all in one round. He can also get the Raiment of the Four set to access the spells Magic Missile, Fireball, Freedom of Movement, and Teleport.

The point I'd like to make is that the Adept has plenty of tools at his disposal to not die once the Fighter gets to within melee, you cannot just assume that the Fighter will win once he closes and attacks. I've already pointed out that at 1st level the Fighter has less than a 50% change to hit the Adept's AC, and in the higher levels it's even less favorable for the Fighter. The two questions to ask are Can the fighter reach the adept? and Can the fighter hit the adept? If neither character metagames other than knowing the base class of their opponent, and if you don't give the Fighter an unfair advantage by putting it in a completely open area, then the Adept is at least 50% likely to triumph at each of the level ranges specified.

Oslecamo

2010-09-12, 07:17 PM

Good thing the adept can cast Baleful Polymorph as well.

Even better the fighter's best save is Fort and he's probably buffing Con as well.:smalltongue:

Also, the fighter can't get core magic items, but the adept is loaded with rods, circlets, complete magic item sets from Magic Compendium and other goodies? I'm the only one thinking that's somewhat unfair?:smallconfused:

Siosilvar

2010-09-12, 07:27 PM

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy):

Resist Energy says "each time the creature is subjected to such damage." PHB 312 says "A creature with resistance to an energy type ignores a certain amount of damage dealt by that energy type each time it is dealt." Monster Manual says "A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, fire, or electricity)."

Player's Handbook and Monster Manual vs. a line in the Dungeon Master's Guide that didn't get updated from 3.0?

EDIT: Does this mean PCs and monsters have per-attack energy resistance and NPCs have per-round energy resistance?

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 07:31 PM

First of all, Polymorphing into a Cryohydra doesn't grant you its breath weapon. That's a supernatural ability, and Polymorph only grants extraordinary special attacks.
Assume Supernatural Ability feat allows the adept to do just that. It's non-core, but apparently that's not an issue anymore.

Hell, the adept doesn't even need the breath weapon, as his bites are, on average, stronger.

Frosty

2010-09-12, 07:33 PM

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy):
The SRD can be wrong.

Oslecamo

2010-09-12, 07:54 PM

Assume Supernatural Ability feat allows the adept to do just that. It's non-core, but apparently that's not an issue anymore.

It's still an issue. It's the adept side that suddenly started pulling non-core stuff while the fighter is still limited to core only.

This is, if we allow all and any non core cheese, give me a couple of minutes and the fighter becomes able to craft himself ephigies that one-shot the adept.

Flickerdart

2010-09-12, 08:00 PM

It's still an issue. It's the adept side that suddenly started pulling non-core stuff while the fighter is still limited to core only.

This is, if we allow all and any non core cheese, give me a couple of minutes and the fighter becomes able to craft himself ephigies that one-shot the adept.
The Fighter hasn't been limited to core for quite a while now. Also, effigies hardly have anything to do with the Fighter class.

But, as I said, the breath weapon isn't important.

Oslecamo

2010-09-12, 08:04 PM

The Fighter hasn't been limited to core for quite a while now. Also, effigies hardly have anything to do with the Fighter class.

It has as much to do as assume supernatural ability. It's useless by default but some tricks here and there and suddenly you can use it.

Also, hydras move at like 20 feets per turn. The fighter can easily run around some time untill the effect wears off.

EDIT:Plus there's the clause that polymorph doesn't allow you extra attacks even if you have a body with extra limbs.

Schylerwalker

2010-09-12, 08:41 PM

For those of you arguing for one side or the other, if you assume the class you're arguing for can use anything out of core, you must assume that the other class can ALSO use anything out of core. It's just reasonable.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-13, 12:12 AM

Finding out who can abuse the most unusual thing unrelated to the classes themselves strikes me as a very poor way to compare the classes to one another.

Lans

2010-09-13, 12:47 AM

How is your adept hitting the fighter with those Attacks of Opportunity? You hit at 6 (base attack) + 6 (Str modifier). That's +12.
You forgot the -2 size modifier. So its only a 10 modifier. Which means the Adept has a 50/50 chance of missing a person in full plate with a shield.

Your fighter should have traded out his Tower Shield proficiency for the Extreme shield proficiency for an extra +1 to AC. Which would mean the adept would only hit him with 2.2 heads a round. +2.2 for every skeletal hydra he brings I guess.

Being devoted to an Elder Evil can negate Mind effecting effects( Intimidate and color spray) and Invisibility for pretty much no opportunity cost. Might limit an Adepts Domain list.

Hague

2010-09-13, 02:18 AM

Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark might work out here.

+2 initiative, sacrifice heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies (permanently, it seems). You can add your dex bonus to damage rolls on targets within 30 feet if they are flat-footed.

Zen Master

2010-09-13, 04:01 AM

Schylerwalker

2010-09-13, 04:07 AM

137beth

2010-09-13, 07:03 AM

Good thing the adept can cast Baleful Polymorph as well.

Not until level 16, by which point the fighter's fortitude would be insane.

As long as you stay soundly out of core, there's no doubt you can give the adept enough extra options - and mess sufficiently with action economy - to render the fighter chanceless.

Going outside core basically gives the fighter nothing at all. He only gets further options that are easily negated by the further options granted the adept.

In core, the fighter has a more than decent chance of winning. Depending of course on pre-combat buffs, terrain and possibly initiative. In a fight designed to defeat the fighter, he will be defeated, of course.
Wha?!? The fighter's biggest weakness is that core doesn't have enough good feats! Going outside of core is the best thing you can do for the fighter.

Zen Master

2010-09-13, 07:23 AM

Wha?!? The fighter's biggest weakness is that core doesn't have enough good feats! Going outside of core is the best thing you can do for the fighter.

No. All the fighter really needs to win this particular fight is A) Close to melee range (again supposing we're not going for an archer), and B) Do enough damage to win.

Both can be achieved in core. Non-core doesn't add significantly to this. It does however allow the adept to completely negate the one fighting chance the fighter has.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2010-09-13, 07:24 AM

First of all, there was nothing in the original post about the characters being core-only. It should be assumed that each character has the best options available, which includes non-core. We have one person boisterously claiming that in core-only the fighter automatically wins, so let's clear that up. The adept suffers no drawbacks for armor/shield nonproficiency apart from making touch attacks. He will be starting out with a tower shield and the best armor he can afford, which puts the fighter at less than a 50% chance to hit him, which means less than a 50% chance of winning, without going outside of core. He can even enter the arena with the tower shield in cover-mode, so the fighter will have to spend at least one round moving all the way around to one side of him just to be able to attack, another trick that doesn't go outside of core. If the adept needs to cast some ranged touch spells he can just drop the tower shield once he has some defensive spells up. In core-only, the adept has a tower shield and is using it for cover from the start, and the fighter is stuck doing nothing but circling around for at least one round of the fight. Outside of core the fighter can get travel devotion or an anklet of translocation to get some swift action movement so he'll be able to make an attack on the first round. Otherwise, if you're insisting on core only, then realize that even if the fighter wins initiative the adept will have cast at least one spell before he even gets to attack, which means the adept is more than 50% likely to win at that point.

Eldariel

2010-09-13, 08:07 AM

EDIT:Plus there's the clause that polymorph doesn't allow you extra attacks even if you have a body with extra limbs.

That particular clause refers to attacks such as Multi-Weapon Fighting and such; you still gain all Natural Weapons and as per Natural Weapon rules, you may attack once with all your natural weapons in a round. This gets quoted way too often.

Zen Master

2010-09-13, 08:48 AM

It should be assumed that each character has the best options available, which includes non-core.

No - it shouldn't. That's what you suggest it should. And I suggest it shouldn't.

I'd wager I could sunder that towershield, then kill the adept. No, every way in which the adept can win relies on being pre-buffed to the eyeballs, messing with action economy, denying the fighter the ability to act (as in stopping him from charging). And so on.

But nevermind. I will make my honorable withdrawal from the field of battle at this point.

Quietus

2010-09-13, 09:33 AM

How's the adept do if my Fighter is an Elf, and thus immune to Sleep? Not an unreasonable situation, either, if my Fighter is an archer.

And as to charging vs. the Earth Devotion; Why is this Fighter not using his Jump skill to simply skip over the affected area? Given a charging build, aiming for Leap Attack isn't exactly unreasonable.

true_shinken

2010-09-13, 01:26 PM

The Adept gets Deeper Darkness, which lasts one day per caster level. He should be able to enter the arena with it already active.
Fair enough.

He can have max cross-class ranks in Hide, and the Fighter an equal number of cross-class ranks in Spot, and due to the distance between them the Fighter will have less than a 50% chance just to see where he's standing.
This distance is pretty arbitrary. Also, if you are going with your 'armored adept', your armor check penalty would kill you here. But maybe the 'armored adept' is your idea for Core-only.
Also, Pierce Magical Concealment ignores the miss chance from Deeper Darkness.

He can buff himself with defensive spells, and then Lesser Rod of Maximized Lightning Bolt or Scorching Ray, Circlet of Rapid Casting a Web (or a second Maximized Scorching Ray), and move behind whatever cover is nearby all in one round. He can also get the Raiment of the Four set to access the spells Magic Missile, Fireball, Freedom of Movement, and Teleport.
That's a lot of items and a lot of money. The Fighter could simply have initative boosts (say, +1 Eager Warning weapon and a Belt of Battle) amd an Antimagic Torc at that point, making all the Adept's items (and spells) useless.

The point I'd like to make is that the Adept has plenty of tools at his disposal to not die once the Fighter gets to within melee, you cannot just assume that the Fighter will win once he closes and attacks.
Ourside core, that's doubtul. Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment plus a single Leap Attack would probably lead to a very dead Adept.

I've already pointed out that at 1st level the Fighter has less than a 50% change to hit the Adept's AC, and in the higher levels it's even less favorable for the Fighter.
If you ignore thw two aforementioned feats and an Antimagic Torc, yes.

The two questions to ask are Can the fighter reach the adept? and Can the fighter hit the adept? If neither character metagames other than knowing the base class of their opponent, and if you don't give the Fighter an unfair advantage by putting it in a completely open area, then the Adept is at least 50% likely to triumph at each of the level ranges specified.
Anklet of translocation + charge should solve issues with most arenas. Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment deals with the rest.

First of all, there was nothing in the original post about the characters being core-only. It should be assumed that each character has the best options available, which includes non-core.
I agree.

The adept suffers no drawbacks for armor/shield nonproficiency apart from making touch attacks.
I believe that's quite wrong. It also applies to all Str and Dex based checks. Initiative? That's a Dex check. Trip? That's a Str check. Wearing armor you are non proficient with makes the Adept go last - that alone is already very dangerous. It also prevents him from making Aoos should the Fighter close.

He will be starting out with a tower shield and the best armor he can afford, which puts the fighter at less than a 50% chance to hit him, which means less than a 50% chance of winning, without going outside of core.
I don't know where you are getting this numbers from. Level 1, the adept is broke. He probably can't afford even chainmail + heavy shield (not even the Fighter can, and he gets pretty high starting gold).
At level 5, we're looking at full plate, a tower shield and maybe an extra +2 from miscelaneous magical items. That also nets a whooping -18 at all Str checks, Dex checks and attack rolls. This basically means you lose initiative and that you WILL get tripped. Your AC is 25 - your touch AC is just 10+Dex (maybe Dex+11 if you have Ring of Deflection), and that's what trip triggers. After the Fighter effortlessly trips your armored adept, he attacks his much lower AC 21 now with a free attack from Improved Trip. At level 5, considering a starting Str of 15, a boost at 4th and Weapon Focus and a +1 weapon, the Fighter hits at +9. Yes, that is pretty low. He can't even use Power Attack. He needs a 12 to hit your AC 21. Of course, at level 5 there is absolutely nothing the Adept can do to one-shot the Fighter anyway. He has 2 2nd-level spells and 3 1st level spells, considering elite array (like we did for the Fighter). Web does not kill the Fighter, Scorching Ray is useless because of the armor, Sleep does not work because of the HD cap. You are left with cause fear and burning hands, and if you use burning hands, you lose web. So basically, at level 5 all the adept can do is hold the Fighter in web and run away.

He can even enter the arena with the tower shield in cover-mode, so the fighter will have to spend at least one round moving all the way around to one side of him just to be able to attack, another trick that doesn't go outside of core. If the adept needs to cast some ranged touch spells he can just drop the tower shield once he has some defensive spells up. In core-only, the adept has a tower shield and is using it for cover from the start, and the fighter is stuck doing nothing but circling around for at least one round of the fight.
Touch attacks at a -8 penalty? I don't think that would work.
Also, he can't ready the shield for cover if he acts last (what with that -18 to initiative), can he?

Outside of core the fighter can get travel devotion or an anklet of translocation to get some swift action movement so he'll be able to make an attack on the first round. Otherwise, if you're insisting on core only, then realize that even if the fighter wins initiative the adept will have cast at least one spell before he even gets to attack, which means the adept is more than 50% likely to win at that point.
With one spell? Which spell?

Tyndmyr

2010-09-13, 02:06 PM

I believe that's quite wrong. It also applies to all Str and Dex based checks. Initiative? That's a Dex check. Trip? That's a Str check. Wearing armor you are non proficient with makes the Adept go last - that alone is already very dangerous. It also prevents him from making Aoos should the Fighter close.

From the SRD: character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

So no, initiative is not affected by armor proficiency. And attack rolls, such as that used by trip, are only affected by weapon proficiency, not armor proficiency.

Using non-proficient armor is an old tactic for casters.

I don't know where you are getting this numbers from. Level 1, the adept is broke. He probably can't afford even chainmail + heavy shield (not even the Fighter can, and he gets pretty high starting gold).

Level 1, he probably can't afford everything he wants, no. But he'll buy whatever he can.

At level 5, we're looking at full plate, a tower shield and maybe an extra +2 from miscelaneous magical items. That also nets a whooping -18 at all Str checks, Dex checks and attack rolls. This basically means you lose initiative and that you WILL get tripped.

No. Just...no.

Your AC is 25 - your touch AC is just 10+Dex (maybe Dex+11 if you have Ring of Deflection), and that's what trip triggers. After the Fighter effortlessly trips your armored adept, he attacks his much lower AC 21 now with a free attack from Improved Trip.[quote]

No. Improved Trip does not do that. It merely prevents AoOs.

And like the adept cares. AC 21 is still not low, and tripping doesn't prevent casting.

[quote] At level 5, considering a starting Str of 15, a boost at 4th and Weapon Focus and a +1 weapon, the Fighter hits at +9. Yes, that is pretty low. He can't even use Power Attack. He needs a 12 to hit your AC 21. Of course, at level 5 there is absolutely nothing the Adept can do to one-shot the Fighter anyway. He has 2 2nd-level spells and 3 1st level spells, considering elite array (like we did for the Fighter). Web does not kill the Fighter, Scorching Ray is useless because of the armor, Sleep does not work because of the HD cap. You are left with cause fear and burning hands, and if you use burning hands, you lose web. So basically, at level 5 all the adept can do is hold the Fighter in web and run away.

Scorching ray? Useless because of armor? What? It hits touch, so it doesn't care about the fighters armor, and divine spells are not affected by the caster's armor. So no, not useless at all.

Web, blast till death. Yay.

Touch attacks at a -8 penalty? I don't think that would work.

Armor non-proficiency does not do that.

Also, he can't ready the shield for cover if he acts last (what with that -18 to initiative), can he?

You can presumably enter the arena with your shield and weapon held however you like. If you must start with them undrawn or the like, well, that seems a bit unfair to the poor fighter.

The -18 penalty to init does not exist.

With one spell? Which spell?

Well, since you went non-core, whichever spell he wants, really.

Frozen_Feet

2010-09-13, 02:42 PM

From the SRD: character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

Scorching ray? Useless because of armor? What? It hits touch, so it doesn't care about the fighters armor, and divine spells are not affected by the caster's armor. So no, not useless at all.

Using non-proficient armor is an old tactic for casters.

Armor non-proficiency does not do that.
Huh? If the adept is not proficient with his full plate, he gets -6 to attack rolls. It reads right there in you SRD quote. -8 or -18 if he wields a Tower shield non-proficiently. That's a pretty hefty penalty even for touch attacks, isn't it? Or is there something I'm missing here? Last time I checked, there's no clause that touch attacks don't suffer the penalty...

Your AC is 25 - your touch AC is just 10+Dex (maybe Dex+11 if you have Ring of Deflection), and that's what trip triggers. After the Fighter effortlessly trips your armored adept, he attacks his much lower AC 21 now with a free attack from Improved Trip.

No. Improved Trip does not do that. It merely prevents AoOs.

And like the adept cares. AC 21 is still not low, and tripping doesn't prevent casting.

Improved Trip doesn't do what?

Tripping starts with a touch attack, which the fighter has easy time making. If the touch attack lands, the trip is resolved with opposed ability check - which the adept will likely lose, since he suffers non-prof penalties to ability checks. Again, reads right there in the portion you quoted.

Finally, Improved trip does grant an extra attack on succesful trip. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip)

So far, the thing about initiative is the only thing that's wrong in True_shinken's reasoning. I'm also curious what way you're going to expand Adept's spell list to include whatever spell he wants, outside of multi- or prestigeclassing so heavily the fight seizes to be about Adept part of the character...

Dilb

2010-09-13, 02:53 PM

Initiative is a dexterity check. I can't imagine why armour wouldn't apply, unless there's a difference between a dexterity check and a dexterity ability check?

Why does the fighter care about being webbed? It's only -2 to attack rolls, plus a -4 to dexterity, and provides cover. Full cover even, if they retreat away and put 20 feet of web in between themself and the caster. And as a spell targeting a foe or an area containing a foe, casting web will get rid of invisibility.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-13, 02:59 PM

Initiative is a dexterity check. I can't imagine why armour wouldn't apply, unless there's a difference between a dexterity check and a dexterity ability check?

Right. Not everything that uses the ability modifiers is an ability check. Initiative definitely uses dex. Sometimes other things as well(even in core). Traditionally, an ability check is just ability mod + d20, and they don't have special names. This is similar to an init check, but not identical.

Lans

2010-09-13, 03:02 PM

From the SRD: character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

So no, initiative is not affected by armor proficiency. And attack rolls, such as that used by trip, are only affected by weapon proficiency, not armor proficiency.
Initiative is a dexterity check.

Initiative :: d20srd.org
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity ...

[quote] Your AC is 25 - your touch AC is just 10+Dex (maybe Dex+11 if you have Ring of Deflection), and that's what trip triggers. After the Fighter effortlessly trips your armored adept, he attacks his much lower AC 21 now with a free attack from Improved Trip.[quote]

No. Improved Trip does not do that. It merely prevents AoOs.

Yes it does, its why its better than the other improved feats.

Scorching ray? Useless because of armor? What? It hits touch, so it doesn't care about the fighters armor, and divine spells are not affected by the caster's armor. So no, not useless at all.
If your taking a huge penalty to attack due to armor it might matter. Scorching ray does 42 average if you don't take into account missing. If you are only hitting 70% of the time it drops to about 28

Frosty

2010-09-13, 03:15 PM

Right. Not everything that uses the ability modifiers is an ability check. Initiative definitely uses dex. Sometimes other things as well(even in core). Traditionally, an ability check is just ability mod + d20, and they don't have special names. This is similar to an init check, but not identical.
Init check is a dex check man. that's why Factotums have such awesome Initi mods.

Koury

2010-09-13, 03:17 PM

And as a spell targeting a foe or an area containing a foe, casting web will get rid of invisibility.

I believe this is incorrect. Casting spells such as Grease and Web do not break Invisibility.

Thane of Fife

2010-09-13, 03:31 PM

I believe this is incorrect. Casting spells such as Grease and Web do not break Invisibility.

For purposes of this spell [Invisibility], an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

So yes, I think it does.

Also, just to throw it out there, one might, at low levels, consider Thunderstones or Tanglefoot Bags, which could give the Adept a not-insignificant risk of spell failure.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-13, 03:33 PM

Initiative is a dexterity check.

Right. However, not every check of an ability is an Ability Check.

"Ability Checks
Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

In some cases, an action is a straight test of one’s ability with no luck involved. Just as you wouldn’t make a height check to see who is taller, you don’t make a Strength check to see who is stronger. "

Read through the above. It's different than Init.

Though allowing Init as a dex check does open up interesting options for init abuse.

And if anyone really cared about, say, shield proficiency, it IS available in core via a feat. Realistically, wasting a feat on this is generally pretty suboptimal.

Koury

2010-09-13, 04:08 PM

So yes, I think it does.

Upon further research, I concede this point.

Sidenote: I appreciate when errors I make are pointed out to me. I appreciate it a little bit less when its done in a rude manner. You came off a little passive aggressive, in my opinion.

Thane of Fife

2010-09-13, 04:19 PM

Upon further research, I concede this point.

Sidenote: I appreciate when errors I make are pointed out to me. I appreciate it a little bit less when its done in a rude manner. You came off a little passive aggressive, in my opinion.

My apologies; such was not my intention. Looking back at it, I can certainly see what you mean.

Koury

2010-09-13, 04:21 PM

My apologies; such was not my intention. Looking back at it, I can certainly see what you mean.

Yay, we can be friends! :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2010-09-13, 04:32 PM

Yay, we can be friends! :smalltongue:
Nonsense. Like the Adept and Fighter, you must constantly fight to the death for ill-explored reasons. :smalltongue:

Schylerwalker

2010-09-13, 04:41 PM

Nonsense. Like the Adept and Fighter, you must constantly fight to the death for ill-explored reasons. :smalltongue:

I lol'ed. No, but seriously, there can be no friendship between Adepts and Fighters. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

Frozen_Feet

2010-09-13, 05:04 PM

And if anyone really cared about, say, shield proficiency, it IS available in core via a feat. Realistically, wasting a feat on this is generally pretty suboptimal.
If the Adept really cared about proficiencies, he'd take a Fighter dip. But I guess that would destroy the very premise of this thread...

Tyndmyr

2010-09-13, 05:06 PM

Fighter is an absolutely fine class to dip.

I suppose that's one advantage it has over the Adept. I can't imagine why I'd ever dip that.

Koury

2010-09-13, 05:08 PM

Fighter is an absolutely fine class to dip.

Is it really a dip if you take 1/3rd of the class?

Oh wait, I always forget Fighter has more then six levels. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr

2010-09-13, 05:12 PM

My current record for consecutive levels taken of fighter is....21.

I cant imagine ever doing so again, though.

Dilb

2010-09-13, 05:21 PM

Right. However, not every check of an ability is an Ability Check.

"Ability Checks
Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

In some cases, an action is a straight test of one’s ability with no luck involved. Just as you wouldn’t make a height check to see who is taller, you don’t make a Strength check to see who is stronger. "

Read through the above. It's different than Init.

Right, no specific skill applies to initiative. You get modifiers from stuff like feats or spells, but there's no skill to put skill points into. We still have "an initiative check is a dexterity check". If your reading is correct, then there are no ability checks anywhere in the SRD, and they never actually explain what a "dexterity check" is.

Schylerwalker

2010-09-13, 06:06 PM

My current record for consecutive levels taken of fighter is....21.

I cant imagine ever doing so again, though.

I could see that. Weapon Supremacy is pretty sexy.

Eldariel

2010-09-13, 06:10 PM

I could see that. Weapon Supremacy is pretty sexy.

It also involves taking 4 feats you wouldn't otherwise want to take. I've built more than my share of Fighter 20s and only one could fit Weapon Supremacy; even that 'cause I kinda forced the issue (and it woulda been 10000 times better as Fighter 12/X 8 but I was challenged to do single-classed builds). It looks nice on paper but I can tell you out of experience that the opportunity cost is way, way too huge. Especially in builds that would want it (archery builds don't mind picking up Weapon Mastery anyways so it's "only" 3 feats for them but they rely on flurries of dozens of arrows so the Take 10 and +5 on single attacks suddenly become relatively useless - charger simply won't have the 6 feats to invest but wouldn't mind taking 10 on the attack).

137beth

2010-09-13, 06:48 PM

My current record for consecutive levels taken of fighter is....21.

I cant imagine ever doing so again, though.

I have gone to 30th level with a pure fighter. BUT that was with heavy modifications to make the fighter more viable. I don't think I could stand playing through a 30th level pure fighter with the core rules.

Lans

2010-09-13, 07:24 PM

Right. However, not every check of an ability is an Ability Check.

How ever Initiative is a dexterity check its right in the description

Initiative
Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check.

Which armor adds a penalty too.

armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

Hague

2010-09-13, 07:43 PM

Ability checks are checks against ability scores. Dex is an ability score. Init is a dex check. Therefore init is an ability check and affected by armor check penalties.

The Glyphstone

2010-09-13, 07:52 PM

All these years, and it's never actually occurred to me to think of that. Interesting.:smallconfused:

Lans

2010-09-13, 08:21 PM

Its why martials take motivate Dex.

Siosilvar

2010-09-13, 08:58 PM

How ever Initiative is a dexterity check its right in the description

Which armor adds a penalty too.

An armor check penalty number is the penalty that applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks by a character wearing a certain kind of armor. Double the normal armor check penalty is applied to Swim checks.

You're missing part of the full quote, which is:

A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

Lans

2010-09-13, 11:11 PM

No I didn't, we were discussing the adept using armor and shield that he was not proficient in, and was not going to sink the 5 feats to get proficiency in. So that part of the post was not pertinent.

quiet1mi

2010-09-14, 12:08 AM

I would say that they are both about equal in raw power... The general ineptitude of the adept is what pushes it down to Tier 4...

Does it outshine Tier 6... Check
With the few spells per day, the lame list of spells, and having to prepare the few spells per day. They are vulnerable to overload. Their spell list does allow them to use wands and scrolls quite nicely though...

I would say that it would depend on the situation... outside of their time in the limelight of "Im the person for the job" they are both equally less useful then desired.

Tyndmyr

2010-09-14, 12:40 AM

All these years, and it's never actually occurred to me to think of that. Interesting.:smallconfused:

Yeah. Hmm, guess it is a dex check. I've never heard anyone refer to it that way, though, and I've played a lot.

This opens up new ideas for pumping init though, so I can't really complain.

Eldariel

2010-09-14, 03:21 AM

This opens up new ideas for pumping init though, so I can't really complain.

Marshal-dip, Factotum and Moment of Prescience all are based on that. It is known.

Koury

2010-09-14, 05:30 AM

Marshal-dip, Factotum and Moment of Prescience all are based on that. It is known.

I seem to recall arguements to the effect of MoP not working on initiative. I can't remember the where or why, however. [/tangent]

Eldariel

2010-09-14, 05:45 AM

I seem to recall arguements to the effect of MoP not working on initiative. I can't remember the where or why, however. [/tangent]

It boils to whether Initiative is an Opposed check or not. But sufficient to say, we've mosty concluded there's no RAW answer as "Opposed check" is a nebulously defined term.

JBento

2010-09-14, 08:59 AM

I'm don't think Init checks are ability checks - aren't ability checks 1d20+ability modifier vs. a fixed DC?

Esser-Z

2010-09-14, 09:00 AM

As for the original question, I assume it's cheating for either one to take Leadership. :smalltongue:

Schylerwalker

2010-09-14, 09:02 AM

So...playgrounders what do you think? At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, who wins in a 1v1 duel? (Meaning no Leadership)

Yes. It is, in fact, cheating.

Esser-Z

2010-09-14, 09:04 AM

Heh. But, see, Leadership of buffers doesn't make it not 1v1. Or using a bunch of Experts making profession checks for lots of gold for better items!

Awnetu

2010-09-14, 09:04 AM

Since both sides have access to leadership, its not like that proves anything anyways.

Esser-Z

2010-09-14, 09:06 AM

Oh, of course not. I'm just idly musing because I'm bored!

Lans

2010-09-14, 11:37 AM

Leadership requires DM permission, though things like wild cohort don't. Though they should largely cancel out, unless one class has buffing capability or doesn't have the feats to take it.
The adept can also bring in skeletons or zombies.

I'm don't think Init checks are ability checks - aren't ability checks 1d20+ability modifier vs. a fixed DC?
Its part if initiatives definition that its an ability check, so you would kind of need to find an errata or something in the rules compendium that says otherwise.

LibraryOgre

2010-09-15, 02:05 PM

Fighter is an absolutely fine class to dip.

I suppose that's one advantage it has over the Adept. I can't imagine why I'd ever dip that.

Oh, I can. Spell trigger items. The Adept's list is awesome with spell trigger items you can use, and with variety. Healing spells, sleep, basic protections (Prot evil, energy resistances), utility (comprehend languages), some buffs (all the physical attribute buffs, Aid, invisibility, mirror image), and debuffs (obscuring mist, web, polymorph).

There may be better lists out there for dipping, but it's a good single level dip for the variety it offers in using spell triggers.

Schylerwalker

2010-09-15, 07:41 PM

Wouldn't it be better to just dip into Cleric?

Thurbane

2010-09-15, 08:38 PM

Oh, I can. Spell trigger items. The Adept's list is awesome with spell trigger items you can use, and with variety. Healing spells, sleep, basic protections (Prot evil, energy resistances), utility (comprehend languages), some buffs (all the physical attribute buffs, Aid, invisibility, mirror image), and debuffs (obscuring mist, web, polymorph).

There may be better lists out there for dipping, but it's a good single level dip for the variety it offers in using spell triggers.

0 Level: create water, cure minor wounds, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic, touch of fatigue.

1st Level: bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, endure elements, obscuring mist, protection from chaos, protection from evil, protection from good, protection from law, sleep.

2nd Level: aid, animal trance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, invisibility, mirror image, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web.

3rd Level: animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deeper darkness, lightning bolt, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, tongues.

4th Level: cure critical wounds, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, stoneskin, wall of fire.

5th Level: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone.
...true, there is some decent spells on that list -not sure there's enough to make it a better spell-trigger dip than, say, Cleric with the Magic domain (which also includes allowing Wizard spell trigger items).

If you could suck up a 2 level dip, it would also get you a familiar. Unfortunately, the Adept's familiar suffer from the fact that the Adept is a divine (not arcane) caster, meaning that by RAW, Improved Familiar (and other familiar boosters that rely on arcane caster levels) are out the window.