PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.5: Dash it all, Let's Just Give Everyone Spells!



OracleofWuffing
2010-09-11, 07:20 PM
A thought I had off of another topic elsewhere...

Given that spells are broken in TO terms, how much does it wreck the game in non-TO terms if I were to use the path of least resistance and houserule everyone gets fullcasting. Just flying by the seat of my pants and not thinking too much of the implications, here, and using core classes for the sake of simplicity...

Wizard, Cleric, Druids all remain the same.
Sorcerer should just play Wizard or Bard (a fault of the idea, I will admit).
Paladin and Fighter casts as Clerics sans Domains and Spontaneous Casting (and for Fighter, no turn undead).
Ranger and Barbarian casts as Druids sans Spontaneous Casting.
Rogue and Bard cast as Wizards.
Monk casts as a double-gestalt Wizard-Cleric-Druid-Sorceror.

Complications that I'm thinking of:

For non-caster casting, spells that use an ability modifier use the non-caster's second highest modifier. If you have two stats at the same mod for your highest mod, the world explodes and you use your highest stat mod.
Wizards are still a choice because they are the only class that can specialize schools.
Druids are still a choice because of spontaneous casting and wildshape. I do not know if I even want to think about giving their AC's full casting.
Clerics are still a choice because of turn undead, spontaneous casting, and being able to walk out in the open public without fear of poor-decision falling.
No learning spells from other peoples' spellbooks.


Since the original casters are still the best at casting, I don't believe and will never assert that this balances the tier-x's with the tier-1's. However, I think it'll lead to having a lot more decisions in battle, ever-so-slightly reduce concerns about how one class can render another class insignificant, and quite possibly the world's tenth-largest trainwreck. Any other concerns I should think about?

Heliomance
2010-09-11, 08:02 PM
I... I'm not sure if you're actually serious. I hope that the "Monk casts as a double-gestalt Wizard-Cleric-Druid-Sorceror" means you're not. Because that is an unholy abomination that should never see the light of day.

Chambers
2010-09-11, 08:16 PM
There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. This is where Monk is the most powerful class in Dungeons & Dragons. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone.

For serious though. What?

On the other hand, it could be fun. Everyone has super-powers! Bam! Pow! Biff! :smallsmile:

Oh, and this:

Druids are still a choice because of spontaneous casting and wildshape. I do not know if I even want to think about giving their AC's full casting.

Do this. Archmage Brown Bears. Red Thay Wizard Wolves. Yes.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-11, 08:38 PM
I... I'm not sure if you're actually serious. I hope that the "Monk casts as a double-gestalt Wizard-Cleric-Druid-Sorceror" means you're not. Because that is an unholy abomination that should never see the light of day.

I'm sort-of-serious about everything except that line. To be more serious about it, though, I'm thinking of giving them the choice to pick which type of casting they want. They like running around naked, so they can go with arcane without worrying about spell failure, but monks are kind of well-associated with religious and nature followings as well.

Caphi
2010-09-11, 08:41 PM
All Lightning Warrior game. Run it.

El Dorado
2010-09-11, 09:18 PM
I'd let the melee classes cast their buff spells as swift and immediate actions. That way they can they can fortify themselves and still charge into combat during the first round.

Swooper
2010-09-11, 09:44 PM
You must really like rocket tag, don't you? :smalleek:

icefractal
2010-09-12, 12:47 AM
I'm pretty sure that a Bard with full Wizard casting is going to be better than a Wizard. Specialization is ok, but it doesn't compare to an entire second set of spells. Rogue, ditto.

Druid - I agree, still competitive with the AC and Wildshape.

Cleric - Unless you endorse Divine Metamagic abuse, they're going to be pretty much all-around worse than a Paladin or Fighter.

I mean, sure, you're using your second highest modifier. This doesn't really matter much unless you're going for a lot of save-or-lose spells. Buffs, battlefield control, and no-save-just-lose spells work fine with a minimal casting stat.

Private-Prinny
2010-09-12, 01:01 AM
All Lightning Warrior game. Run it.
Lightning Warrior
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Bonus feat

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Improved Two-Weapon Mastery

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Bonus feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Greater Two-Weapon Mastery

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Bonus feat

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Bonus feat[/table]



Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
2nd|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
3rd|6|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
4th|6|5|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
5th|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—
6th|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—|—|—
7th|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—|—
8th|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—|—
9th|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—
10th|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—
11th|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—
12th|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—
13th|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—
14th|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) Χ4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-12, 01:05 AM
...Wow, I can see why that's well known on these forums. Does anyone have a link to the page where the clueless berk posted that Tier 0 monstrosity?

Zaq
2010-09-12, 01:15 AM
A thought I had off of another topic elsewhere...

Given that spells are broken in TO terms, how much does it wreck the game in non-TO terms if I were to use the path of least resistance and houserule everyone gets fullcasting. Just flying by the seat of my pants and not thinking too much of the implications, here, and using core classes for the sake of simplicity...

Wizard, Cleric, Druids all remain the same.
Sorcerer should just play Wizard or Bard (a fault of the idea, I will admit).
Paladin and Fighter casts as Clerics sans Domains and Spontaneous Casting (and for Fighter, no turn undead).
Ranger and Barbarian casts as Druids sans Spontaneous Casting.
Rogue and Bard cast as Wizards.
Monk casts as a double-gestalt Wizard-Cleric-Druid-Sorceror.

Complications that I'm thinking of:

For non-caster casting, spells that use an ability modifier use the non-caster's second highest modifier. If you have two stats at the same mod for your highest mod, the world explodes and you use your highest stat mod.
Wizards are still a choice because they are the only class that can specialize schools.
Druids are still a choice because of spontaneous casting and wildshape. I do not know if I even want to think about giving their AC's full casting.
Clerics are still a choice because of turn undead, spontaneous casting, and being able to walk out in the open public without fear of poor-decision falling.
No learning spells from other peoples' spellbooks.


Since the original casters are still the best at casting, I don't believe and will never assert that this balances the tier-x's with the tier-1's. However, I think it'll lead to having a lot more decisions in battle, ever-so-slightly reduce concerns about how one class can render another class insignificant, and quite possibly the world's tenth-largest trainwreck. Any other concerns I should think about?

My first thought upon seeing the bolded passage was "ah, the monk is still MAD as ever."

Edge of Dreams
2010-09-12, 01:35 AM
All Lightning Warrior game. Run it.

You realize what you've done? I am now legitimately tempted to do this.

Draz74
2010-09-12, 03:36 AM
@Private Prinny: Your excerpt leaves out the part where the Lightning Warrior has a d20 Hit Die. :smallfrown:


...Wow, I can see why that's well known on these forums. Does anyone have a link to the page where the clueless berk posted that Tier 0 monstrosity?

(The page no longer exists ... it died in one of the transitions of the WotC forums.)
He wasn't a clueless berk. The people who took him seriously were. :smallbiggrin:


My first thought upon seeing the bolded passage was "ah, the monk is still MAD as ever."

Heh, fair point ... but this is actually a good example (well, a hyperbolic melodramatic example, at least) of how MAD doesn't necessarily mean underpowered. :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2010-09-12, 03:39 AM
Lightning Warrior
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Bonus feat

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Improved Two-Weapon Mastery

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Bonus feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Greater Two-Weapon Mastery

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Bonus feat

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Bonus feat[/table]



Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
2nd|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
3rd|6|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
4th|6|5|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
5th|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—
6th|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—|—|—
7th|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—|—
8th|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—|—
9th|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—
10th|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—
11th|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—
12th|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—
13th|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—
14th|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) Χ4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

Plus d12 HD, the only thing I saw lacking in there.

Or was it d10? The time I saw it it also had 8 skill points, so perhaps there are several variants?

El Dorado
2010-09-12, 03:42 AM
d20 oversells it. I'd stick with d12. :smallwink:

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-12, 03:43 AM
Ah, so was the guy who designed the class parodying anyone in particular?

Douglas
2010-09-12, 10:22 AM
Wait, the Lightning Warrior does not get to cast spontaneously from his unlimited spells known?


Ah, so was the guy who designed the class parodying anyone in particular?
He was parodying a general trend in a large number of homebrew posts on the WotC forums, as I recall.

Zhalath
2010-09-12, 01:56 PM
Lightning Warrior
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Bonus feat

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Improved Two-Weapon Mastery

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Bonus feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Greater Two-Weapon Mastery

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Bonus feat

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Bonus feat[/table]



Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
2nd|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
3rd|6|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
4th|6|5|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—
5th|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—
6th|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—|—|—
7th|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—|—
8th|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—|—
9th|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—|—
10th|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—|—
11th|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—|—
12th|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—|—
13th|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—|—
14th|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—|—
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3|—
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4|—
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|4|3
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5|4
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|5
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) Χ4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

Seems like that thing should get Somatic Weaponry, or whatever the feat is that lets you cast with sword in hand. Also, why does this look like CW Samurai+Wizard?

Also, the monk "double-gestalt Wizard-Cleric-Druid-Sorcerer" seems like it runs into the issue that anyone who gishes does as well: all the power in the world, but only a limited amount of time to do it. Maybe this modded monk should also get the 3.0 haste as an always active special ability. :smallwink:
Seriously though, having a ton of casting actually kind of sucks, especially if they're all really different. It seems like you'd end up focusing on one and using the other one for menial tasks.

Funny thing is, I still bet a well-built wizard could take this thing out. Or CoDzilla. Or both. Definitely both.

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-12, 04:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that a Bard with full Wizard casting is going to be better than a Wizard. Specialization is ok, but it doesn't compare to an entire second set of spells. Rogue, ditto.
Ah, I see, that point wasn't clear. Bards don't get Bard casting + Wizard casting, they trade their Bard Casting for Wizard Casting. Same concept for Rangers and Paladins- what I was aiming for was, if you have partial casting, that gets souped up to full casting. If you don't have partial casting, you get something I picked out of a hat.

I don't think I understand the rogue argument entirely, though... The way I see it, any time a Rogue is getting sneak attack, that's an action the rogue isn't casting a spell. I also don't want to do silly things like drop UMD from the rogue's list, because the idea I'm playing with here is super-buff the melee types.


Cleric - Unless you endorse Divine Metamagic abuse, they're going to be pretty much all-around worse than a Paladin or Fighter.
Oh, I do. I certainly do. :smallbiggrin:

Though I still think that domains + spontaneous casting is going to be a tiny little pull in their favor, still. I mean, since CR's going to go completely out of whack, pretty much the sane way of going about this sort of campaign is to make sure every encounter has class levels with the same rules. Combat's definitely going to be a lot more fatal a lot more quickly. Maybe buffing cure spells in general would also be in order...

In other Lightning Warrior jokery, I would like to point out that the Monk would not receive a familiar. In other monk jokery, it should still be pointed out that having full casting on one's abilities may not synerigize well with Flurry of Blows and it requiring a full round action. In further general jokery, no, I've not played Rocket Tag. Is it anything like Black Hole Chicken?

And to wrap things up on a more serious end, prestige classes. It's pretty much in stone that if you have full casting, thou shalt not take a prestige class that does not continue thy full casting. So, I see two ways of doing this, the first is to give every prestige class ever full casting progression, the second is to go "If the prestige class says nothing about your original casting progression, it progresses everything fully." The crux of the matter is, if you were a melee class with full casting, would you try to get into a Wizard prestige class, or a Melee prestige class? And, furthermore, what can I do to incentivize continuing the melee route?

Koury
2010-09-12, 05:10 PM
I don't think I understand the rogue argument entirely, though... The way I see it, any time a Rogue is getting sneak attack, that's an action the rogue isn't casting a spell. I also don't want to do silly things like drop UMD from the rogue's list, because the idea I'm playing with here is super-buff the melee types.

If my Rogue gets full Wizard casting, expect me to focus heavily on ray spells. :smalltongue:

ThunderCat
2010-09-12, 05:16 PM
Ah, I see, that point wasn't clear. Bards don't get Bard casting + Wizard casting, they trade their Bard Casting for Wizard Casting. Same concept for Rangers and Paladins- what I was aiming for was, if you have partial casting, that gets souped up to full casting. If you don't have partial casting, you get something I picked out of a hat.

I don't think I understand the rogue argument entirely, though... The way I see it, any time a Rogue is getting sneak attack, that's an action the rogue isn't casting a spell. I also don't want to do silly things like drop UMD from the rogue's list, because the idea I'm playing with here is super-buff the melee types.The bard still has more hit points, better saves, more skills, a better selection of class skills, bardic knowledge (or even better, bardic knack), and bardic music. I'm not sure that's worth giving up to get a familiar and the ability to specialise. As for the rogue, Koury said it.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 05:24 PM
1 spell of each level per day while possibly enough to make someone powerful/playable if no one had spellcasting in a game where everyone has spellcasting isn't worth all your actual class features. And DMM abuse is generally just used to get Full BAB.

Druid remains a heavy contender but Wizard and Cleric become the weakest classes.

Dracons
2010-09-12, 06:43 PM
Rogues still get their sneak attack added to any spell they've cast that hits a target that is ether flanked or lost of dex bonus, (assuming they're hit in melee, or within 30 feet).

I'd be using lots of ray spells. And touch spells for fun damage. Hell, if it went 3.0 harm, and it was cleric spell casting, it's an instant win move. Harm + sneak attack. WOOO!

OracleofWuffing
2010-09-12, 06:54 PM
Ah, I see now. I don't want to instate a "melee can't get nice things for the sake of melee can't get nice things" rule, but what about allowing only Clerics and Wizards metamagic access? 'Cause seriously, If I go so far as to cut Clerics and Wizards out, there's little point in even giving everyone spells to begin with.

Also, calling it now, the BBEG of an all Lightning Warrior campaign should be every familiar that has or ever will existed.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 07:03 PM
Ah, I see now. I don't want to instate a "melee can't get nice things for the sake of melee can't get nice things" rule, but what about allowing only Clerics and Wizards metamagic access? 'Cause seriously, If I go so far as to cut Clerics and Wizards out, there's little point in even giving everyone spells to begin with.

Also, calling it now, the BBEG of an all Lightning Warrior campaign should be every familiar that has or ever will existed.

My lightning warrior would take Obtain Familiar (and Improved Familiar).I love familiars

Douglas
2010-09-12, 07:12 PM
Also, calling it now, the BBEG of an all Lightning Warrior campaign should be every familiar that has or ever will existed.
Make it an Arcane Hierophant with every boost you can find to pile on the Companion Familiar. Bonus points if you can shoehorn special mount bonuses onto the same creature and still have room for Halfling Outrider too. Try to end up with an optimized level 20 character whose familiar/companion/mount is more powerful than he is.

Urpriest
2010-09-12, 07:13 PM
My lightning warrior would take Obtain Familiar (and Improved Familiar).I love familiars

That's some serious cheese.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-12, 08:52 PM
Lightning Warrior, IIRC, was more ridiculous than what Private Prinny posted. First, there was the intro with the infamous "trades power for flavor" line or whatever it was, despite the complete lack of flavor. Then there was the d20 Hit Dice, and the full-BAB-plus-extra-iteratives-for-no-apparent-reason, three good saves, full wizard spellcasting with some extra bonuses tacked on, and the super TWF thing.

Myth
2010-10-18, 06:18 AM
While fun at PvE and with lots of versatility and durability, the Lightning Warrior can be taken out by a Wizard with the insane PrCs.

Full BAB + TWF bonus feats means nothing. I'd laugh if he went melee in a CL20 duel.

D20 HD is good but nobody will be killing the other one with HP damage in the CL20 duel. Or if they did, the damage would be in the several hundreds or thousands.

The saves are nice and the bonus feats are even nicer i admit. The worst thing is the 6 lvl 9 spells.

BUT, the LW can't Persist Foresight for free like an Incatatrix can. Guess who wins the initiative then :smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2010-10-18, 08:09 AM
Guess who wins the initiative then :smallbiggrin:
The Lightning Warrior/Incantatrix. LW can take almost any PrC that a Wizard can, and LW keeps its ridiculous spellcasting regardless of (full casting) PrCs.

Myth
2010-10-18, 08:34 AM
Hey we were talking about LW 20 here.

ShriekingDrake
2010-10-18, 08:37 AM
Another option, if we're being serious here, would be to give some of the "casts as" classes a penalty of 2-3 levels and, for the traditionally non-caster classes, the inability to use metamagic. or something like that. So they'll get some utility out of their spells, but they won't get the full bang.

Endarire
2010-10-18, 08:15 PM
I assume a main point of this proposal is to give non-casters similar oomph to casters. Delaying casting only hurts that.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-18, 08:21 PM
Having everyone be "casters" is a fine enough idea, but you don't need to apply sloppy, hasty changes to classes to accomplish this. Want to replace the Fighter? Use the Warblade. The Paladin? Use the Cleric (certain PrCs make this even more appropriate, like Ordained Champion and Prestige Paladin). The Monk? Swordsage! Etc. There is a tier 3 or above version of most common character concepts now.

Endarire
2010-10-18, 08:26 PM
One of the points of giving everyone spells is so they can be especially useful out of combat. No amount of currenty-printed martial maneuvers will cause you to plane shift or create a prismatic wall.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-18, 08:33 PM
One of the points of giving everyone spells is so they can be especially useful out of combat. No amount of currenty-printed martial maneuvers will cause you to plane shift or create a prismatic wall.

True enough.

PopcornMage
2010-10-18, 08:37 PM
One of the points of giving everyone spells is so they can be especially useful out of combat. No amount of currenty-printed martial maneuvers will cause you to plane shift or create a prismatic wall.

I bet I could do something with the subtle knife for the former. Or I could make an argument for the Amber royals.

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-19, 03:06 PM
One of the points of giving everyone spells is so they can be especially useful out of combat. No amount of currenty-printed martial maneuvers will cause you to plane shift or create a prismatic wall.
Maybe this is why people get overly creative about reading Iron Heart Surge. :smalltongue: "There is not a wall over here and its absence is affecting my character so I will strike the enemy so hard that the nothing will turn into a prisma-" *gets pummeled by books*

Skorj
2010-10-19, 07:06 PM
Monk casts as a double-gestalt Wizard-Cleric-Druid-Sorceror.


That would still suck, just because it's a monk (and sorta a mystic theurge now, so double the curse). :smallbiggrin: