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Kaskos
2010-09-12, 07:43 AM
Heya Guys,

Now in the group i play in with mates of mine, Bards ALWAYS get a bad rep and no one has ever played one because of this.

Is it possibly to make a Bard really useful? and apart from playing music to inspire courage etc, what uses do they have?

If possible could anyone post an example build of a good Bard with their uses etc? I am interested in looking to play one, starting at level 1 so all advice is well received

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-12, 07:50 AM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8334.0

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/185372-inspire-courage-optimization.html

Vangor
2010-09-12, 08:05 AM
Inspirational Boost (SpC Spell), Badge of Valor (MiC Item), Melodic Casting (CM Feat), Song of the Heart (ECS Feat), and Dragonfire Inspiration (DrMa Feat) as a Silverbrow Human or Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling (DrMa Races). Plus, the Lyric Thaumaturge (CM) or Sublime Chord (CArc) PrCs help immensely. Bards are tremendous fun and capable of fairly ghastly things.

Kaskos
2010-09-12, 08:08 AM
Inspirational Boost (SpC Spell), Badge of Valor (MiC Item), Melodic Casting (CM Feat), Song of the Heart (ECS Feat), and Dragonfire Inspiration (DrMa Feat) as a Silverbrow Human or Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling (DrMa Races). Plus, the Lyric Thaumaturge (CM) or Sublime Chord (CArc) PrCs help immensely. Bards are tremendous fun and capable of fairly ghastly things.

Such as?
By using?

Eldan
2010-09-12, 08:10 AM
The Sublime Chord is a prestige class which gives a bard full sorcerer casting, essentially turning you into a sorcerer with more skill points.

Dragonfire Inspiration makes you add fire (or other energy, in some cases) damage to all your allies attacks, instead of a bonus to attack and damage.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 08:11 AM
Dragonfire Inspiration makes you add fire (or other energy, in some cases) damage to all your allies attacks, instead of a bonus to attack and damage.And of course you can stack the benefits from normal Inspire Courage with DFI.

Kaskos
2010-09-12, 08:20 AM
The Sublime Chord is a prestige class which gives a bard full sorcerer casting, essentially turning you into a sorcerer with more skill points.

Dragonfire Inspiration makes you add fire (or other energy, in some cases) damage to all your allies attacks, instead of a bonus to attack and damage.

So wheres a good palce to start?

Bard - Human or Gnome:
Highest stat in Charisma of course

Max out Bluff - Gather Info - Hide and Listen

And look into the feats suggested i this post mebbe?

Vangor
2010-09-12, 08:28 AM
Such as?
By using?

Well at first level (assuming you can purchase/find the Badge of Valor which is more than plausible by third) you can begin giving everyone +4d6 Fire on all attacks by using the Badge of Valor (3/day), Inspirational Boost (Spell), and Song of the Heart and converting the +4 Inspire Courage into Dragonfire Inspiration. Melodic Casting means you can still cast spells while maintaining the song, and who doesn't love throwing a puddle of grease around? Lyric Thaumaturge fairly early will give you some nice additional spells and spell slots plus free Captivating Melody (increasing Enchantment/Illusion DCs by 2 fairly easily), and follow this with Sublime Chord to begin gaining Wizard spells all the way to 9th level at level 19.

Other ways exist to enhance Dragonfire Inspiration, too, including changing the damage type. Trying to remember how you gain Sonic damage, and drawing a blank on I think a double sonic damage in area spell Bards can gain. Hopefully someone can remember.

Tyger
2010-09-12, 08:29 AM
Human is good. Extra feat is always handy and the extra skill points go a long way on a character that is essentially built around skills.

For a great guide, which was already linked to you I am certain, check out the Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0) over at BrilliantGameologists. Its a great guide.

Some of the stuff that is getting tossed at you here is great advice. DFI (that's Dragonfire Inspiration) is a way of taking the bonus you normally grant to hit and damage with your Inspire Courage ability, and turning it into fire damage on your and all your allies attacks. +3 to hit and damage is nice, but +3d6 fire damage on those attacks is even better.

Skills - look into the Bluff that you noted, but also look into Diplomacy. Even when played moderately, the Diplomacy skill is one of the most useful skills in the game, and really captures what the class is designed to do.

In short, properly built and creatively played, the bard class (with access to out of core options) is one of the better support classes in the game, and one class that makes the whole party feel better about their characters, while ruining the DMs carefully crafted plans. :)

What sourcebooks do you have access to? That is an important consideration in any advice we can give you.

Kaskos
2010-09-12, 08:36 AM
Human is good. Extra feat is always handy and the extra skill points go a long way on a character that is essentially built around skills.

For a great guide, which was already linked to you I am certain, check out the Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0) over at BrilliantGameologists. Its a great guide.

Some of the stuff that is getting tossed at you here is great advice. DFI (that's Dragonfire Inspiration) is a way of taking the bonus you normally grant to hit and damage with your Inspire Courage ability, and turning it into fire damage on your and all your allies attacks. +3 to hit and damage is nice, but +3d6 fire damage on those attacks is even better.

Skills - look into the Bluff that you noted, but also look into Diplomacy. Even when played moderately, the Diplomacy skill is one of the most useful skills in the game, and really captures what the class is designed to do.

In short, properly built and creatively played, the bard class (with access to out of core options) is one of the better support classes in the game, and one class that makes the whole party feel better about their characters, while ruining the DMs carefully crafted plans. :)

What sourcebooks do you have access to? That is an important consideration in any advice we can give you.


Well, its a 3.5 campaign and most books are open.
Not allowed for certain is ToB and MoI.
The DM for this isnt into variants or Homebrew so i need reasons he cant try and damage the creation of the character too.
He is abit ALOT strict

Greenish
2010-09-12, 08:47 AM
Melodic Casting means you can still cast spells while maintaining the song, and who doesn't love throwing a puddle of grease around?Melodic Casting is hardly necessary, since the songs last for 5 rounds after you stop singing, 10 rounds with Lingering Song. You can start a song (or two, normal Inspire Courage and DFI) and then cast stuff just fine.

Gray Mage
2010-09-12, 09:06 AM
Melodic Casting is hardly necessary, since the songs last for 5 rounds after you stop singing, 10 rounds with Lingering Song. You can start a song (or two, normal Inspire Courage and DFI) and then cast stuff just fine.

But it's necessary for the Virtuoso PC, which I think isn't too bad.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 09:18 AM
But it's necessary for the Virtuoso PC, which I think isn't too bad.Ah, a fair point, even though Virtuoso alone isn't anything to write home about.

It's nice, however, for progressing Sublime Chord casting along with having good skills per level.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 09:21 AM
Even if core only, a Bard with beefed up Perform can be quite powerful with fascinate and suggestion. Have others do your dirty work for you.
I believe that's the basis of the Joker Bard build, even.

MarkusWolfe
2010-09-12, 09:33 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, judging by everything I saw in those links, the most important Bardic Song is 'Inspire Courage'. Which makes a lot of sense to me; it's what I'd use a bard for IRL.

InkEyes
2010-09-12, 09:38 AM
So wheres a good palce to start?

Bard - Human or Gnome:
Highest stat in Charisma of course

Max out Diplomacy

And look into the feats suggested i this post mebbe?

Fixed that for you. Bluff is nice, but that's what the Glibness spell is for.

Another good route to go if you want to try for a melee bard is Snowflake Wardance. Add your Charisma bonus to attack rolls? Yes please!

Also, if you have access to Book of Exalted Deeds, Nymph's Kiss and Words of Creation are great feats for good-aligned bards.

There's also some insane cheese you can get into if you want to harness the power of divine meta magic. It's not a kind thing to do, but it'd certainly show your friends the power of bards.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, judging by everything I saw in those links, the most important Bardic Song is 'Inspire Courage'. Which makes a lot of sense to me; it's what I'd use a bard for IRL.

The big thing is Inspire Courage received the most splatbook support. All of the coolest powers (Dragonfire Inspiration) work off your inspire courage bonus.

Vangor
2010-09-12, 09:42 AM
Melodic Casting is hardly necessary, since the songs last for 5 rounds after you stop singing, 10 rounds with Lingering Song. You can start a song (or two, normal Inspire Courage and DFI) and then cast stuff just fine.

Necessary for entrance into Lyric Thaumaturge, and being able to maintain concentration helps make Lingering Song less necessary, especially if you use Song of Timelessness from Sublime Chord eventually which ends immediately when you stop. Plus, you are saving yourself the skill cost of Concentration by generally replacing with a Perform which is a nice bonus.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 09:43 AM
Fixed that for you. Bluff is nice, but that's what the Glibness spell is for.Grab both.


Another good route to go if you want to try for a melee bard is Snowflake Wardance. Add your Charisma bonus to attack rolls? Yes please!For a limited time by burning a bardic music use for one-handed slashing weapons only. Eh, it could come in handy.


There's also some insane cheese you can get into if you want to harness the power of divine meta magic. It's not a kind thing to do, but it'd certainly show your friends the power of bards."Bardzilla" uses Metamagic Song and a few other tricks, actually, not DMM.

[Edit]:
Plus, you are saving yourself the skill cost of Concentration by generally replacing with a Perform which is a nice bonus.It only replaces Concentration with Perform for casting defensively, I seem to recall. There are quite a few other instances where you'd want to Concentrate.

TurtleKing
2010-09-12, 09:52 AM
There is another way to make an awesome bard. Enter the Diplomancer.
Bards are one of the classes (with the least amount of cheese) that can be a diplomancer.

Now you are probably wondering what a diplomancer is if you haven't already heard about them before. A diplomancer can diplomancy their way around turning most they interact with into helpful. Turning most people into being helpful tends to nullify most battles the DM has planned for you. This build is best used if you want a more roleplaying feel than a hack and slash. At level one you will notice some success with improving peoples attitudes to you. At level two is when the diplomancer can truly start to shine for by now you have most of what you need to diplomancy.

Now for the mechanics if this build.
Races: For starters you are going to want a race that has a charisma bonus. The races with those are: Death-touched, Drow, Umbragen Elf, Chaos Gnome, Mephling (all), Catfolk, Doppleganger, Dragonkin, Harssaf, Witchknife, Yuan-ti Pureblood, Mind Flayer, Giant-Sand, Ogre Mage, Aasimar, Celadrin, D'hin'ni, Gloaming, Hound Archon, Janni, Rakshasa, Naztharune Rakshasa, Domovoi, Gruwaar, Pixie, Satyr, Bozak, Dracotaur, Adu'ja. This listing is from Crystal Keep. Some of these have some hefty level adjustments and/ or racial hit die. With those races if you want to play one you might have to use racial progression levels. Half-Elves are also an option due to the racial +2 bonus to diplomancy.

Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomancy) +3 and Negotiator +2 are your two feats that increase diplomancy. There might be a few others out there in non core that I don't know about.

Skills: Diplomancy should be maxed out. Having five or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge Nobility/ Royalty, and Sense Motive give skill synergies. If skill synergies are able to stack then with this method you gain a +6 to diplomancy.

If you rolled an 18 for one of you base stats and put that into Charisma plus a Chaos Gnome's +2 racial bonus =20 with a modifer of 5.

Add any items or spells that increase your Charisma or even diplomancy.
(rolling max) 20+5+6+5 (if you can get both feats by now)+any spells/ items= at least 36. With this you can shift a person from hostile to friendly with one roll.

Edit: Spells that could work are Eagle Splendor +4 to Cha for 1 min per level, and Heroism and eventually Greater Heroism that adds among the bonuses a +4 to skill checks. Good Hope +2 for 1 min per level.

Gray Mage
2010-09-12, 10:01 AM
Ah, a fair point, even though Virtuoso alone isn't anything to write home about.

It's nice, however, for progressing Sublime Chord casting along with having good skills per level.

I know, that's why my favorite barb build is Bard 5/ Vituoso 5/ Sublime Chord 10

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 10:08 AM
I know, that's why my favorite barb build is Bard 5/ Vituoso 5/ Sublime Chord 10

Wait, what? Why are you taking Sublime Chord to 10 if you are advancing it with Virtuoso? O.o

Greenish
2010-09-12, 10:11 AM
I know, that's why my favorite barb build is Bard 5/ Vituoso 5/ Sublime Chord 10What are you doing with the Virtuoso in such a build? Bard 10 (or 9) would be better.

Vangor
2010-09-12, 10:24 AM
[Edit]:It only replaces Concentration with Perform for casting defensively, I seem to recall. There are quite a few other instances where you'd want to Concentrate.

Any time a Concentration check is used alongside a spell or spell-like ability, Melodic Casting lets you replace with Perform. This involves the majority of uses of Concentration which are relevant to the Bard, and considering the difference between Cha and Con for most Bards this should function similar to having taken Skill Focus (Concentration).

Tyger
2010-09-12, 10:43 AM
Yeah, Melodic Casting is a great feat. No need to spend points in Concentration (which is awesome!), can cast spells while maintaining songs (which is handy), and can use command or spell completion activated magic items while maintaining the song (which rocks). All in all, a great feat for any bard.

To the OP, if you let us know what you want to do with your character, we can certainly guide you better.

Some basic options:

1) Bard Warrior - wade into combat and kill your enemies.
2) Bard Wizard - cast spells of awesome power, be the party's primary caster.
3) Bard Buffer - use your bardic abilities to make your allies into machines of unstoppable power.
4) Bard Face - get others to do everything for you, and talk your way out of every problem with nothing more than a wink and a smile.
5) Bard of all Trades - a bit of everything, but not excelling in any. You'll still be pretty awesome.

That's not an exhaustive list, but it touches on the basics. Once you let us know what you really want, we can certainly give better and more focused advice.

There are a lot of bard fans here. It's an awesome class. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-09-12, 10:47 AM
Any time a Concentration check is used alongside a spell or spell-like ability, Melodic Casting lets you replace with Perform.Ah, I remembered it wrong. That's pretty handy then.

Kaskos
2010-09-12, 03:06 PM
Yeah, Melodic Casting is a great feat. No need to spend points in Concentration (which is awesome!), can cast spells while maintaining songs (which is handy), and can use command or spell completion activated magic items while maintaining the song (which rocks). All in all, a great feat for any bard.

To the OP, if you let us know what you want to do with your character, we can certainly guide you better.

Some basic options:

1) Bard Warrior - wade into combat and kill your enemies.
2) Bard Wizard - cast spells of awesome power, be the party's primary caster.
3) Bard Buffer - use your bardic abilities to make your allies into machines of unstoppable power.
4) Bard Face - get others to do everything for you, and talk your way out of every problem with nothing more than a wink and a smile.
5) Bard of all Trades - a bit of everything, but not excelling in any. You'll still be pretty awesome.

That's not an exhaustive list, but it touches on the basics. Once you let us know what you really want, we can certainly give better and more focused advice.

There are a lot of bard fans here. It's an awesome class. :smallbiggrin:


Am just looking for a Bard that can show up in my friends group and shine. Make em look and think Oh, Bards can do quite well actually.
I dont mind Combat or Buffing


The party as is so far is a Gnome Barbarian, human cleric, human or elvan wizard and a unknown race Rogue if that helps
Arcance caster is very inexperienced. Gnome Barbarian is very experienced.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 03:14 PM
The party as is so far is a Gnome Barbarian, human cleric, human or elvan wizard and a unknown race Rogue if that helps
Arcance caster is very inexperienced. Gnome Barbarian is very experienced.What level are you? Especially at the low levels, IC & DFI are excellent force multipliers.

[Edit]: Level 1, from the OP. Silly me. Well, DFI on, few spells here and there. Silverbrow human is an excellent choice for a race.

Boren
2010-09-12, 04:09 PM
Right now I've been having a really good time with a bard/mindbender/sublime cord in our groups savage tide game.
He is a crazy diplomancer then top that off with a full plait of arcane spell-casting. Can't talk my way out of it? Fine...SIT! *dominate*

truekender
2010-09-12, 04:29 PM
Sublime Chord is the SUPER OVERPOWERED bard prc - if you want to be classy avoid it. Why play a bard if you're going this route? Just be a sorcerer.

Note: I focus on bards for the most part.

Bard 6/Lyric thaumaturge 10/Bard 4 (I dislike having multiple PrCs, I think it's cheesey)

32 Point buy
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 16 +4 from levels

ACFs:
1st: Spell Breaker Song, Bardic Knack (with jack of all trades this is also like a minor bardic knowledge)
3rd level: Song of the Heart

Feats
Human: Melodic Casting c.mag
1: Jack of All Trades
3: Versatile Spellcaster RotD (combined with Lyric Spell and bonus spells from Lyric Thaumaturge you can out class other spontaneous casters with versatility)
6: Lyric Spell c.adv

Good blend of casting and buffing. Don't forget captivating melody from Lyric Thaumaturge!
Suggested Wizard Spells:
1: Color Spray
2: meh, nothing too crazy, do what you want.
3: Fly
4: Polymorph
5: Telekinesis
6: your pick!

Tyger
2010-09-12, 05:27 PM
<Some advice - a mix of good RP and specific build advice>

ACFs
3rd level: Song of the Heart


You can't take Song of the Heart as the 3rd level ACF... it requires Inspire Competence.

[hr]

For the basic buffer bard with a dash of combat, give these ideas a shot...

Race: Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic, page 6) which grants you the dragonblooded type and opens all sorts of fun. You lose your extra skill point though... trade off.

Level 1: Prioritize CHA and DEX for your stats. Take Melodic Casting (for the reasons mentioned above) and Dragonfire Inspiration as your feats. Grab a whip - trust me. If your DM will allow it, look into the Dagger Whip from Arms and Equipment guide. Skills are Diplomacy, at least one Perform, and the rest to suit your vision and RP. Hide and MS are always good choices.
Level 2: You get your spells. Go with Inspirational Boost (now your Dragonfire Inspiration does 2d6 fire damage) and Improvisation (giving you more bonuses to pretty much whatever you want). Both spells are in the Spell Compendium.
Level 3: Grab Song of the Heart as your 3rd level feat. It boosts all your Inspire Courage and other bonuses. Now your DFI does 3d6 fire damage. You are officially the most damaging character in the party.
Level 4: Boost your CHA, or your DEX if it was an odd number.

Some magic items to look at include the Badge of Valour from the MiC (+1 to your Inspire Courage 3/day - which means more DFI damage), the Harmonizing enchantment, also from the MiC, for its ability to maintain songs for you, and slap that on a Crystal Echoblade - again from the MiC - for your 1/2 bard level to sonic damage while singing.

That whip you have allows you to hit anything within 15 feet unlike the poor barbarian who needs a spell to do so) for 4d6 fire damage. If you talked your DM into the Dagger Whip, its 1d6+4d6 fire damage. And you get a bonus to Disarm with it. Disarm is highly under-rated by a lot of folks, but think how easier a fight is if the warriors on the other side don't have any weapons. :)

You can take a look at the Snowflake Wardance feat at 6th (Frostburn) for the ability to use your CHA to a hit bonus, and buy yourself a pair of Slippers of Battledancing (DMGII) for CHA to hit and damage again, along with a bunch of other great benefits (but its 33K, so its just something to shoot for).

General use magic items that will come in handy are those that will boost your CHA and CHA skills, so look into a Cloak of Charisma asap. Also take a peek at the Circlet of Persuasion for +3 to all your CHA skills.

For skills, Diplomacy is your bread and butter. There are thousands of posts on the internet about how this can be broken beyond belief by level 5 - don't do that unless your DM is OK with it... its bad form. :smallwink: Knowledges can also add a tonne of your use to the party - it is power after all.

If your Wizard is a rookie, look into some of the spells that can help the party / hinder the enemies, as the Wizard will likely make the classical "Blaster" mistake... so look at Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, etc for your spell choices.

Sublime Chord is a great PrC (despite its detractors) with great fluff and a good mechanic to back it up. It is the cornerstone of a few "broken" bard builds, but still very flavourful - so it certainly isn't a "sorcerer" in disguise, though it casts almost as well as one. You retain all your bardic goodness while progressing it.

Mindbender is another classic choice, mostly for the telepathy, which can help to deal with that pesky language barrier, and also add another level of RP and use to the party.

Whew...

TL:DR version - bards kick ass. Play one. Show the chumps that it is great.

holywhippet
2010-09-12, 05:44 PM
Bards are good for people who actually want to do roleplaying rather than just hitting everything until it dies. It's worth noting that they have all of the knowledge skills, most of the talking skills and speak languages as class skills. This is on top of the general purpose bardic knowledge.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-12, 07:04 PM
Bards are good for people who actually want to do roleplaying rather than just hitting everything until it dies. It's worth noting that they have all of the knowledge skills, most of the talking skills and speak languages as class skills. This is on top of the general purpose bardic knowledge.

What? But Bards are good for people wgho want to hit things to kil them as well. Snowflake dance adds Cha to Attack bonus (this is in addition to Str/dex).

You are letting flavor blind you to the Bard's power.

onthetown
2010-09-12, 07:15 PM
It's been mentioned to death, but Sublime Chord is awesome. You get a wizard's spell list to choose from, so you basically turn into a sorcerer.

Add a decent INT score for lots of useful skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Open Lock, Move Silently), plus the fact that their BAB is nicely in the middle of bad to worse, choose some nice combat feats to give you two-weapon fighting or power attacks, and take a few healing spells before you go into Sublime Chord. Ta-dahhh: Musical rogue/ranger/sorcerer/somewhat of a healer (especially if you buy healing items). You're officially a stand-in for when the other party members, whatever their class, are incapacitated... Not to mention that you can hold your own fairly well.

I think bards are pretty much one of the most versatile core classes there are. There's the all-purpose bard like I described (probably missing some things, those just seemed like the basics) or you can focus on skills, songs, spells, or battle.

truekender
2010-09-12, 08:05 PM
@ pretty much everyone

The OP specifically stated that s/he wanted to know useful tips about bards other than inspire courage. Nearly every single person is maxing out inspire courage with dragonfire lol.

Also, person above me is incorrect, it's typically seen as better optimized to do the following. So if you DO want to go Bardzilla with inspire courage...

Play human, not silverbrow.

Human Feat: Dragontouched
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
(inspirational boost spell at level 2 for +1 to inspire courage)
3: Draconic Heritage (Amethyst, or any sonic based)
Take the Eberron Campaign Setting Alternate Class Feature for bard level 3: Song of the Heart for +1 to inspire courage (as well as other bardic music abilities) in place of inspire competence.

Now you still get the bonus skill points AND you give +3d6 sonic damage to your allies' attacks. Fire damage is more commonly resisted, plus if you're in a zone of silence your music wouldn't be working anyway.

this bard build I find kind of boring as all you do is buff really, look back at my earlier post for a more versatile bard build that can buff as well as cast.

Tyger
2010-09-12, 08:35 PM
@ pretty much everyone

The OP specifically stated that s/he wanted to know useful tips about bards other than inspire courage. Nearly every single person is maxing out inspire courage with dragonfire lol.

Also, person above me is incorrect, it's typically seen as better optimized to do the following. So if you DO want to go Bardzilla with inspire courage...

Play human, not silverbrow.

Human Feat: Dragontouched
1: Dragon Fire Inspiration
(inspirational boost spell at level 2 for +1 to inspire courage)
3: Draconic Heritage (Amethyst, or any sonic based)
Take the Eberron Campaign Setting Alternate Class Feature for bard level 3: Song of the Heart for +1 to inspire courage (as well as other bardic music abilities) in place of inspire competence.

Now you still get the bonus skill points AND you give +3d6 sonic damage to your allies' attacks. Fire damage is more commonly resisted, plus if you're in a zone of silence your music wouldn't be working anyway.

this bard build I find kind of boring as all you do is buff really, look back at my earlier post for a more versatile bard build that can buff as well as cast.

Well, that option (human rather than Silverbrow) exchanges a feat for the skill points really. If you want to change your draconic type to get Sonic damage instead of fire (which is a good idea), you can undergo the Rite of Draconic Affinity for 5000 GP instead of a feat... much cheaper opportunity cost. See page 59 of Races of the Dragon.

And no, once more you can not trade Inspire Competence at third level to get Song of the Heart. Inspire Competence is one of the pre-requisites for Song of the Heart, so if you trade it away, you don't qualify for Song. So while you may disagree with the posters above you, they are at least following the rules. :smallsmile:

EDIT: And why is the build you posted "boring"? It can still cast, buff, fight, forge, fabricate and fornicate. In short, almost all bard builds can do a bit of everything, some just do certain things better than others.

El Dorado
2010-09-12, 08:45 PM
Take the Eberron Campaign Setting Alternate Class Feature for bard level 3: Song of the Heart for +1 to inspire courage (as well as other bardic music abilities) in place of inspire competence.


Song of the Heart is a feat not an ACF. You can take it at 3rd level but it requires 6 ranks in Perform and the Inspire Competence ability. That said, it really is one the best bard feats out there.

At 1st level (like everyone else), you're not going to be knocking over any evil empires. Tactics-wise, you're best served hanging in the back, shooting stuff with your bow while using whichever flavor of inspire courage you prefer (vanilla or draconic).

Melodic Casting is a solid choice for a first level feat. It'll free up some skill points and be in place later when you start casting and using bardic music at the same time.

Good early skills: Bluff, Perform, Diplomacy, Tumble, Listen, Gather Information, Spellcraft, Knowledge (history). Concentration if you don't take Melodic Casting. You'll want to eventually max out Use Magic Device but you can skip it early on. Since you have a wizard and a rogue in your party, it's a good idea to find out which skills they're taking so there's not too much overlap.

Good early spells: Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Charm Person, Bladeweave, Grease, Inspirational Boost, Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Charm Monster, Haste, and Displacement.

Look for items that will boost your Charisma into the stratosphere; so much of your power is Charisma. Looks for an echoblade at later levels.

Core bard isn't bad if you play to your strengths. Non-core bard can be amazing whatever path you choose.

Tyger
2010-09-12, 08:52 PM
Song of the Heart is a feat not an ACF. You can take it at 3rd level but it requires 6 ranks in Perform and the Inspire Competence ability. That said, it really is one the best bard feats out there.

<some other great advice>


Actually the ACF in question allows you to not take your new musical ability, and take a feat (from a defined list which includes Song of the Heart) instead. So truekender is partly correct, but it doesn't work for the reason I've noted already.

The rest of this advice is pretty good though!

Vangor
2010-09-12, 09:27 PM
Actually the ACF in question allows you to not take your new musical ability, and take a feat (from a defined list which includes Song of the Heart) instead. So truekender is partly correct, but it doesn't work for the reason I've noted already.

The rest of this advice is pretty good though!

Where is the ACF? I cannot seem to locate this in ECS.

Tyger
2010-09-12, 09:30 PM
Where is the ACF? I cannot seem to locate this in ECS.

Page 34, under "Music of Creation". Its a darned handy ACF (if it is really an ACF... not sure there!), and I agree with truekender that its likely a good trade for some of the music types. Just doesn't work like tk is suggesting. :smallbiggrin:

Dr.Epic
2010-09-12, 09:30 PM
I played a bard that was a pretty good rogue: I maxed out bluff and took mostly illusion spells. Also I was a changeling so my disguise was insanely high.

Vangor
2010-09-12, 09:34 PM
Page 34, under "Music of Creation". Its a darned handy ACF (if it is really an ACF... not sure there!), and I agree with truekender that its likely a good trade for some of the music types. Just doesn't work like tk is suggesting. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, thank you. I was mistaking "Music of Creation" for "Music of Making", and could find no similar entry for SotH. Would be an ACF or a Campaign Substitution or something. Usually a feature will mention "even if X does not normally qualify", but considering this is gained as a bonus feat, you would need all of the prerequisites in order to qualify and therefore would not have inspire competence, as mentioned.

CapnVan
2010-09-13, 06:21 AM
Sublime Chord is the SUPER OVERPOWERED bard prc - if you want to be classy avoid it. Why play a bard if you're going this route? Just be a sorcerer.

Because you're a bard who's improved his spell-casting significantly, not a sorcerer? That makes you not "classy"?



Note: I focus on bards for the most part.

Bard 6/Lyric thaumaturge 10/Bard 4 (I dislike having multiple PrCs, I think it's cheesey)

Multiple PrCs is "cheesy", but using feats from setting books isn't? We'll have to agree to disagree.


Suggested Wizard Spells:
1: Color Spray
2: meh, nothing too crazy, do what you want.
3: Fly
4: Polymorph
5: Telekinesis
6: your pick!

I assume you meant to do a bard spell list, not sure why you didn't.

1. Silent Image — it's incredibly versatile
2. Glitterdust, tongues, invisibility, minor image
3. Does anyone play a bard without glibness?
etc.

Kaskos
2010-09-13, 06:23 AM
I am trying to find out from ym DM if he will allow a Silverbrow Human as he can be strict over alot of things.

Does the fact were in Faerun or v3.5 affect any advice i've been given so far?

I just wanna make sure there are as few reasons as possible for him to stop me making this build the ways suggested

Vangor
2010-09-13, 08:39 AM
I am trying to find out from ym DM if he will allow a Silverbrow Human as he can be strict over alot of things.

Does the fact were in Faerun or v3.5 affect any advice i've been given so far?

I just wanna make sure there are as few reasons as possible for him to stop me making this build the ways suggested

The only difficulty might be Song of the Heart from the Eberron Campaign setting, but in my experience any campaign which uses a setting permits all or most other settings. Silverbrow Humans, on the other hand, should not be any significant difficulty, just be prepared to learn spells since this route lends itself more to DFI being a terrific bonus rather than significant strength.

Kaskos
2010-09-13, 08:46 AM
DM was asking about Silverbrow Human because much like myself, he had never come across them.
Does anyone know the usual details you get for most races?

History, Habitat, Culture and Favoured Classes etc?

Any info or a link would be great

Vangor
2010-09-13, 09:02 AM
They're from Dragon Magic, effectively humans with silver dragonblood somewhere in the line. Not too different.

Greenish
2010-09-13, 09:24 AM
Bards are good for people who actually want to do roleplaying rather than just hitting everything until it dies.You can roleplay with any class (though some are worse in social interaction), and one can roleplay hitting things until they die.

But yeah, bards are made of awesome.

Saintheart
2010-09-13, 10:19 AM
There's an awesome homebrew e-motivator around here somewhere that calls bards "the fifth wheel" of the party.
The wheel, of course, being the steering wheel.

Bards rock, in more than one sense of the word. Not only do you get to be a witty smart@$$ in conversation and get away with it, but by 7th level you're putting out +4 bonuses or higher to everyone's attack, damage, and some saves. If your DM (unlikely by the sound of it) allows Book of Exalted Deeds and in particular the Words of Creation, it gets hilarious: anyone for +6, +7 bonuses to attack and damage at 8th level or so?

And that's before we get into Snowflake Wardance if you really just want to stab things. Although the one thing about the Wardance is that it doesn't raise your damage, just your attack rolls, so either carry a keen rapier (with the harmonising quality on it, of course) around or just spend the 4,000 or so and pick up a Crystal Echoblade instead.

Tini
2010-09-13, 11:06 AM
I've been playing Bards for years now and even though our group is limited to core rules only, it's the best class to play - at least if you're a five-piece-party (I like the steering wheel idea, though..:smallsmile: )

Just some ideas that I've figured out for my built:

Originally based on flavor, I picked halfling as my race - and those racial traits proved to be quite useful, ecspecially the bonus on saves..

Melodic Spellcasting is extremely powerful, not because of singing and casting combined but it replaces magical concentration checks by your (usually much higher) performance skill. this is great for:
Mobile Spellcasting. As long as you overcome the DC (no problem here), it gives you two move actions while casting a spell. Just stay outside the room, come in and blast and then out again.
And for even more defense: Force of personality makes almost any will save a success as it replaces wisdom (poor!) by charisma (hooray!)...


As someone already mentioned the sublime chord pretige class, I agree that this totally rocks! It gives you the incredible song of arcane power which actually hightens your effective caster level - again based on your performance check. Then coordinate your spells with the other casters, you can even create whole concepts (illusions, sound-based attac-spells and so on)... great fun!

Kaskos
2010-09-13, 02:40 PM
So whilst i wait for the DM to decide on the Silverbrow Human Idea
Assuming he does allow it - is this the kind of idea i shold go for?

Silverbrow Human

Feat 1) Dragonfire Inspiration
Feat H) Melodic Casting
Feat 3) Song of the Heart

3 highest stats are 17, 16 and 14
So Charisma - Dex - Int?

Try to max out (or get high) Skills such as@
Bluff - Diplomacy - Perform (possible 2 of these) - Knowledge and Gather Info

Keep an eye our for:
Sublime Chord PrC
Badge of Valor
A decent M/Work Instrument
A Whip (with dagger if possible)


And if i am not allowed Silverbrow - slow it down by one Feat?
Is it worth looking into Draconic Heritage? I think thats the one that lets me change the damage type i throw out?

Tyger
2010-09-13, 04:45 PM
So whilst i wait for the DM to decide on the Silverbrow Human Idea
Assuming he does allow it - is this the kind of idea i shold go for?

Silverbrow Human

Feat 1) Dragonfire Inspiration
Feat H) Melodic Casting
Feat 3) Song of the Heart

3 highest stats are 17, 16 and 14
So Charisma - Dex - Int?

Try to max out (or get high) Skills such as@
Bluff - Diplomacy - Perform (possible 2 of these) - Knowledge and Gather Info

Keep an eye our for:
Sublime Chord PrC
Badge of Valor
A decent M/Work Instrument
A Whip (with dagger if possible)


And if i am not allowed Silverbrow - slow it down by one Feat?
Is it worth looking into Draconic Heritage? I think thats the one that lets me change the damage type i throw out?

That's all good. If Silverbrow is out, ask about the Ritual mentioned above before you look into Draconic Heritage as a feat. Personally I like fire, but if I was going to get an alternate energy type, I'd rather pay 5,000 GP than a feat. :)

Urpriest
2010-09-13, 05:16 PM
The feat requires Sorceror 1, so it's a little awkward to have it and keep full casting.

The ritual might change your damage type, but without the feat it's...ambiguous. I'd say it's DM's call.

holywhippet
2010-09-13, 07:06 PM
You can roleplay with any class (though some are worse in social interaction), and one can roleplay hitting things until they die.

But yeah, bards are made of awesome.

I mean rollplay and succeed a lot though. If your barbarian has a charisma penalty and no ranks in diplomacy you aren't going to be convincing people of things politely.

One time I used a bard to do paperwork - we were trying to make nice to a young man who's father had just been killed. He was trying to sort through a pile of documents so I told the DM I was going to help him. One decent knowledge: nobility check later (I think it was about 23 in total) and I had an NPC ready to talk to us earlier and friendlier.

Optimator
2010-09-13, 09:47 PM
Yeah, Bards are one of those classes that get very strong with spat books but appear impotent in core-only environments. Inspire Courage optimization is great even without DFI (and even without the roleplay-intensive Words of Creation--WoC makes it extra-superfly). I love DFI, but I certainly don't think all Bards need to have dragon ancestry just to "keep up". Besides, you weren't quite as interested in that talk, were you OP?

Stacking a hard-to-resist Inspire Awe (DM) with a Haunting Melody (ECS) can be very potent combo. A friend of mine made a Bard that did this combo and took the Dirgesinger PrC (LM) for a very flavorful and suprisingly potent debuffer Bard. Using Song of Awakening to revive a big monster/NPC into a disposable death machine is pretty cool.

A lot of the Bard spells in the SpC, PHB2, Frostburn, et al are fairly strong and can add a lot of variety to individual Bards, although normal Bards get them quite late and in smaller-than-is-necessary-for-balance numbers. Early designers sure were timid with the Bard's casting (example of similar lines of thought and subsequent nerfing: Hexblade). Score one for Sublime Chords then. It seems a lot of newer Bard spells are more powerful and actually balanced with the levels at which you obtain them, so getting 5th and 6th level Bard spells early with the Sublime Chord is prett-ay, pretty good.

Bards are sooo full of win.

P.S. Sublime Chord is not overpowered. Spells are delayed 2 levels compared to a normal full caster plus the number known is fairly small. Dual-advancement shenanigans using SC on the other hand... :amused:

Keld Denar
2010-09-13, 09:53 PM
The feat requires Sorceror 1, so it's a little awkward to have it and keep full casting.

Dragontouched, a feat on the very next page, allows you to be treated as a Sorcerer1 with regards to qualifying for any other draconic feat, including Draconic Heritage.

Its another feat tax, but worth it if you want to change your flavor from fire to anything else.

A word of caution. I play a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard in my IRL campaign, and my DM is having a horrible time with it. He's used to everyone having a rather low damage output, and my character pretty much DOUBLES the amount of damage my party does with a 3d6 Dragonfire...and the party is average level 6-8. Yea. Your DM might restrict it after a session or two.

That said, there is nothing wrong with dropping Dragonfire Inspiration. Normal Inspire Courage is actually a little better if your group consists of mainly PAing fighter/barbarian types and ray specialist wizards. DFI doesn't do anything for rays, but IC at least gives a boost to hit. Also, 2 handed PA converts IC from +x/+x into +3x damage, which is slightly lower than DFI's 3.5x, but also bypasses energy resistance and since its physical damage tacked on top of normal damage, it generally avoids DR as well (except for super high DRs).

Its still really strong, but a lot more subtle, in case your DM likes to swing the Banhammer. Its also less feat intensive, freeing up some feats for things like Rapid Shot (if you go the archery route) or Lyric Spell (if you go the caster route).

gorfnab
2010-09-14, 04:22 AM
A bard build I'm partial towards is Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. It's fairly versatile, gets you 9th level spells, and can still be used to pump Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration.

Greyfell
2010-09-14, 07:24 AM
On a completely different note... if you want a facesmashing bard/fighter feel, go Battle Caster feat (com arcane), mithral full plate (counts as medium armor). You can now cast in full plate with no spell failure. Of course, if you have a decent dex, you'll most likely need a nimbleness enchant on the armor as well. Mithral + nimbleness allows a dex mod of +4 iirc (away from books atm)

The prestige class Warchanter is nice too for combat. You lose your spellcasting advancement, but gain full BaB, d8 HD, a good FORT save and some truly amazing new songs/abilities for combat. Especially awesome are 'Combine Songs' (use two songs at once) and 'Inspire Legion' (everyone affected now has the BaB of the highest person affected).

Saintheart
2010-09-14, 08:07 AM
And if you think mithral plate just isn't enough bonus to say "Can't hit me" to your enemies, contemplate the fun that is the Alter Self spell, which bards pick up as a level 2 spell (not sure whether you're starting around level 5, which IIRC is when bards first get to that level of spell).

Alter Self is not as potent as the druid's Wild Shape ability, of course, but if you use it to turn yourself into a Troglodyte, it rather handily gives you +6 natural armor bonus, which stacks with mithral plate's armor bonus. And Alter Self doesn't destroy your ability to keep on singing.

This gives you an AC of at least around the, oh, 24-25 mark (AFB, can't remember what the armor bonus is for mithral full plate) before we even go to factoring in Dex bonuses or other refinements. This is an armor bonus that your fighter-y friends will have to have spent feats or phat cash on magic items to access. The spell also gives you a couple of (admittedly, piddling) natural attacks.
But never mind the AC total.
Just contemplate the awesomeness.

You are now a six-foot-tall singing reptile in shimmering Elvis Presley armour.

Greyfell
2010-09-14, 09:23 AM
Hmmmm, technically, you need to pick up medium armor profiency somewhere for the mithral full plate idea.... Dragonslayer 1 (iirc) should do it.

Saintheart: Geez, thats a hilariously potent image.... I wish I knew someone who could make that my avatar. It' be awesome

Draz74
2010-09-14, 10:24 AM
Whatever you do, don't miss out on the spell Improvisation from the Spell Compendium! It's a Level 1 spell, and all by itself it makes the Bard a much better skillmonkey.


That said, there is nothing wrong with dropping Dragonfire Inspiration.

This is true ... but I'd also like to point out that serious optimization of Inspire Courage involves hitting the party with normal Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration. :smallamused: