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Allanimal
2010-09-12, 07:48 AM
I have a question about the Defensive Throw feat from Complete Warrior.

The feat's benefit text is:

If the opponent you have chosen to use your Dodge feat against attacks you and misses, you can make an immediate trip attack against that opponent. This attempt counts against your allowed attacks of opportunity in the round.

One of the prereq's for Defensive Throw is Improved Trip. The SRD says:


You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt.


OK, with that in mind, here are my questions. In all cases, assume that there are no reach conflicts (that is, the mentioned opponents are all within reach of each other to make the trips and attacks)

1) Suppose I am moving and provoke an attack of opportunity from my selected dodge opponent during the move. The enemy takes the AOO, and misses. Defensive Throw implies that I should get a trip attempt, assuming I have AOOs of my own remaining. Is this correct that I can use Defensive Throw on an AOO against me by my dodge opponent that missed?

2) Same situation as #1, assuming answer is yes. If my trip attempt is successful, do I get the "free" attack granted by the Improved Trip feat?

3) Same situation as #1, assuming answer is yes. If the move action that provoked the original AOO was incomplete (hadn't moved my full movement), and I took the trip attempt, can I finish my movement?

4) Same situation as #3, but also assuming answer to #2 is yes and I did the "free" attack granted by improved trip. Can I finish my movement?

5) Assuming #4 is yes, after I finish my movement, can I still make my standard attack? Remember, the trip and attack were triggered by the enemy's AOO missing, not my intended standard action.

6) OK, assuming any of the above answers are yes, instead of normal movement in #1, what if I am charging? Can the the free trip attempt (and possible attack) be used in the middle of a charge? And more importantly, can the charge be continued to attack the original enemy?

I'm pretty sure #1 is yes and #6 is no, but the others are a grey area. What do you GitPers think?

Greenish
2010-09-12, 08:05 AM
1) Yes, I'd say.
2) Yes.
3) Uhm, I guess it's yes, since AoO (and the other stuff that results) interrupts your normal action, which you may continue after the AoO (and, by extrapolating, other stuff tied to it) have been completed.
4) Yeah, the attack from Imp. Trip is a non-action.
5) Yes.
6) I should say yes (if the answers to above truly are yes), assuming there's no range conflict.

But different DMs may hold different rulings.

Fitz10019
2010-09-12, 08:40 AM
The attack from Impoved Trip is not a 'non-action.' If anything, Improved Trip makes the trip a non-action, allowing the successful tripper to reclaim his normal attack afterwards. My reading of Defensive Throw says it gives you a trip, not an attack, and I think you would not get an attack after that trip, even if you have Improved Trip, because their is no normal attack to reclaim.

In other words, Improved Trip means when you use a melee attack to trip, you may reclaim the attack after a successful trip. Defensive Throw does not give you a melee attack. It specifically gives you a trip.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 09:17 AM
In other words, Improved Trip means when you use a melee attack to trip, you may reclaim the attack after a successful trip. Defensive Throw does not give you a melee attack. It specifically gives you a trip.
But Improved Trip triggers on a trip attempt, not on an attack. Mayb you should read the feat a bit more closely.

Greenish
2010-09-12, 09:24 AM
But Improved Trip triggers on a trip attempt, not on an attack. Mayb you should read the feat a bit more closely.I believe he meant the line "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt."

It seems to me that it's just wizards tripping over their own over-specificity, given that Defensive Throw is quite a bit later addition. Since Defensive Throw requires Imp. Trip, I should think it was also intended to trigger it.

Fitz10019
2010-09-12, 09:25 AM
"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt."

Let's all read Improve Trip closely. The phrase "as if you hadn't used your attack" does not apply to tripping through Defensive Throw.

Allanimal
2010-09-12, 11:55 AM
Ok, as I expected, there are two viewpoints.
I wonder if Curmudgeon will show up and give his strict RAW interpretation?

I also realized there is an unasked question. What if, on my dodge opponent's turn, he attacks me and misses? There is no question that if I have any AOOs remaining, I get a trip attempt. If I succeed, do I get the bonus attack granted by improved trip?

I guess it boils down to - do the bonus attacks granted by Improved Trip apply to the "free" AOO-like trips granted by Defensive Throw? I think it is true that the last clause of Improved Trip was supposed to limit or somehow define the post-trip attack, but it isn't clear enough, to me, when it applies and when it doesn't.

true_shinken
2010-09-12, 11:59 AM
"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt."

Let's all read Improve Trip closely. The phrase "as if you hadn't used your attack" does not apply to tripping through Defensive Throw.

So? That's just a clarification. Nowhere does it say it requires an attack. The sentence is 'as if you hadn't used your attack'. Well, did you use any attack? No. It's not even contradictory. Take a look at this:

A metamagic feat lets a spellcaster prepare and cast a spell with greater effect, albeit as if the spell were a higher spell level than it actually is.
Does this mean metamagic that does not increase a spell level does not work? I believe not.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-14, 07:05 AM
That phrase ("as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt") just means you use the same attack bonus for the follow-on melee attack as you used for the trip attack, to clarify that you're not using up your iterative attacks in a full attack. As part of an AoO there's no change in your AB anyway.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-14, 07:21 AM
On #3 an #4, both AoOs and attacks granted by improved trip are non-actions, so they shouldn't interrupt movement unless movements are specifically stated to interrupted by attacks.

The rest is "Yes"

Person_Man
2010-09-14, 08:45 AM
The correct answer is that you shouldn't take Defensive Throw, because it has too many pre-conditions.

It requires four feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge - the last two of which are mostly cruddy feats (although Imp Unarmed Strike is useful for a few very specific builds). It only works against one enemy at a time, the target of your Dodge. It doesn't work before you act in Initiative, because you need to designate your target of Dodge. It requires that said enemy attack you, when there is no guarantee that he will not attack one of your allies instead. It requires that your enemy miss. It requires that when the enemy attacks you and misses that he be within your reach, otherwise you cannot make an AoO on him. And then it requires that you make a successful Trip attempt against him. Oh, and if you fail that Trip attempt, you need to drop your weapon to avoid being Tripped yourself.

Seriously, how often in combat will all of those factors align in your favor? Wouldn't you be better served by spending all those feats on something better?

Allanimal
2010-09-14, 10:31 AM
The correct answer is that you shouldn't take Defensive Throw, because it has too many pre-conditions.

It requires four feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge - the last two of which are mostly cruddy feats (although Imp Unarmed Strike is useful for a few very specific builds). It only works against one enemy at a time, the target of your Dodge. It doesn't work before you act in Initiative, because you need to designate your target of Dodge. It requires that said enemy attack you, when there is no guarantee that he will not attack one of your allies instead. It requires that your enemy miss. It requires that when the enemy attacks you and misses that he be within your reach, otherwise you cannot make an AoO on him. And then it requires that you make a successful Trip attempt against him. Oh, and if you fail that Trip attempt, you need to drop your weapon to avoid being Tripped yourself.

Seriously, how often in combat will all of those factors align in your favor? Wouldn't you be better served by spending all those feats on something better?

:smallannoyed:I guess I wasn't clear about the situation when I asked the question. Why would I even want to consider the Defensive Throw feat? Maybe this will help.
1) The DM has some pretty specific rules that limit the kinds of optimization you see around here. A) A character can have only one PrC. B) Tome of Battle is right out. C) Anything outside of core has to be approved. Feats, spells, PrCs, magic items, everything. A lot of things get nixed or nerfed.
2) I'm playing in a relatively unoptimized group (partly due to #1, I suppose). 3 of the 6 characters are melee types. One's an archer. One's a bard. The wizard casts evocation spells. Everybody thought my lvl 7 Barbarian 7 with cleave was really bad-ass.
3) Despite how mechanically inferior the class is, I have wanted to play a Drunken Master for a long time, and I have a great, flavorful background, personality, etc. for him. I'm really excited about him joining the group, and I hope everyone likes him as much as I do already.
4) The build is a Monk 6 / Drunken Master 2. Maybe he'll live long enough to get DM3 or 4. Since he's an inferior build, I'm sure he'll die before he even wakes up the 1st morning. That said, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike are bonus feats for a 6th level monk, and Dodge is one of the Prereqs for Drunken Master, therefore I have all of these feats anyway.
5) My goal for this character was to stagger in (100' on a charge that isn't in a straight line, woo hoo!) and soak an AOO or two to let the swashbukler/rogue and the two-weapon mace clobberer get into better position. If I can trip a person along the way, why not? I just want to be sure that's how it works before I beg my DM to allow it (and hope he reads it the same way I do).

So please, don't tell me not to take the feat. I am well aware of how situational it is, how expensive it is and I am still considering it. For the flavor. For the fun.

At this point, I expect to see someone say that I should change DMs, or get a different gaming group. But consider the following:
A) The 6 people I play D&D with are my friends. One of them is my wife. We have fun doing it. We cook each other dinner. We laugh. We get scared. We (try to) save the world together, even if we are a bunch of unoptimized misfits. We enjoy it how it is, even if we can't squeeze the last bit of mechanical advantage from every D&D book ever printed. Finding a different group won't happen - I like gaming with these people.
B) The campaign is coming to an end, and someone else form the group will take over as DM. So the DM will change soon. He'll have his own house rules, too. We'll all have new characters. But until then, I am playing a Monk 6 / Drunken Master 2. And I'm gonna have a lot of fun doing it.