Do Illithids Breathe?

[Maralais]

So, I'm kinda a newbie DM(and a newbie player) and I plan a few campaigns long story that will probably end with Illithids ruling the world(hooray for downer ending) or stopping the end of the world as we know it in the last minute. Though I have mostly everything planned, I have a rather bizarre question:

Do Mind Flayers need to breathe? Or can they live in aquatic environments just as normal as surface world?

You see, I am planning to make a sunken city a base of operations for the illithid.

[Admiral Squish]

Illithids do breathe normally. I would recommend using aboleths for underwater empires.

[Serpentine]

Next question: What if they infested water-breathing creatures, like aquatic elves or merpeople?

But also: You could always say "magic", or "they pipe air down to their city". Or, just, "they all infested water-breathing creatures like aquatic elves and merpeople"...

[imp_fireball]

No offense, but I think these sort of questions belong in role playing - especially when you can probably get confirmation from the books, or when it will inevitably be covered by GM discretion to matter what we try no reason here.

If you want to reason something and there's no actual home brewing that can quickly get put on here close to the original OP to get involved in, I recommend taking it to role playing.

Anyone else agree?

[DrWeird]

There's nothing explicitly stating them to be water-breathing as fully-ceremorphed Illithids, but then again - there's nothing stopping Mr. DM from saying they can. :smallbiggrin: But straight up rules, no fudging? Aboleths are much better aquatic aberrations, lurking beneath the waves.

a'bethu l'Ashdodu yaqom Baal-Dagon.

[Zaydos]

Normal illithids cannot breathe underwater. You could create truly amphibious ones (illithids are already amphibious in the sense that through their life cycle they spend a phase as aquatic creatures and a phase as terrestrial creatures but they cannot go back to the water after their aquatic phase... I think some salamanders are the same way), possibly as a wholly separate subrace, or just illithids that used aquatic humanoids for cerebromorphosis. Also Aboleths, and Koprus (MMII).

[Warpwolf16]

Well in The Radiant Dragon novel, a ilithid admited the reason he survived adrift in the void or Flow was that they require little air. So one could say the Ilithid Empire was semi aquatic using a slave race which can be the Kopru, or by adapting to the ways of the water by becoming Amphibious.

Here's a idea me and a group of friends built up, the Illithids arrived on the world by Spelljammer but instead of making it on land they found themselves deep under the worlds ocean. The Helm was to damaged to bring the ship up to the surface. They were able to activate a few of the warped machines but required a energy source. They were able to capture a small group of aquatic races and began the process of creating a mutanted illithid tadpole that would allow the soon to be fully grown illithid to be able to travel in water. Some of them worked while others became Kopru. Wth the newly spawned ranks of illithid and the new slave race they searched for a energy source which would be the geo thermal vents where they converted the gas and heat into energy. Now they have expanded their small jammer to the point where it could hold all the labs, temples, and anything else needed to create a race of mindless drones and the things that would aid and the destruction of the surface world.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread moved to Roleplaying Games.

[Jergmo]

Illithids do need to breathe, but if you go by the fluff of Lords of Madness, they need to keep their skin damp and breathe through their skin. Illithids wear +1 suits of Slick leather armor (or Dampsuits) - it confuzzles me a bit that there is no crunch to back this up, but there it is!

Note: From what I understand, this is why they congregate in the Underdark.

[KillianHawkeye]

There's no reason you as the DM can't have the illithids in your game be some previously unknown subrace which is fully amphibious. I mean, they are practically half squid. It's not really much of a stretch is all I'm saying.

Either that, or just give them all mass-produced items of waterbreathing. Most mind flayers are going to be wizards or psions anyway, so it's not like they don't have access to magic item creation.

[Talakeal]

In my capaign world Illithids are fully amphibious. As the previous poster said, it is just silly for cephalopods to not be able to breathe underwater. Its your game, its not cheating anyone if you do the same.

[Killer Angel]

There's no reason you as the DM can't have the illithids in your game be some previously unknown subrace which is fully amphibious. I mean, they are practically half squid. It's not really much of a stretch is all I'm saying.


I agree, but if Illithids can breathe without magic, both in water enviroment and outside of it, then the DM should keep it in account when setting the difficulty of the encounters (more free abilities given to the critters = increase in CR).

Unless, of course:


or just give them all mass-produced items of waterbreathing.

with the cost of such item, included in their gear.

[RebelRogue]

I agree, but if Illithids can breathe without magic, both in water enviroment and outside of it, then the DM should keep it in account when setting the difficulty of the encounters (more free abilities given to the critters = increase in CR).

Unless, of course:



with the cost of such item, included in their gear.
No need to increase CR if it has no effect on how dangerous the encounter is given the environment. And really, are people keeping track of the WBL for each and every NPC on this level of micromanagement? Maybe I've played 4e for too long...

[FelixG]

No need to increase CR if it has no effect on how dangerous the encounter is given the environment. And really, are people keeping track of the WBL for each and every NPC on this level of micromanagement? Maybe I've played 4e for too long...

Its not so much micromanagement if you decide that all the race of X are going to have Y in environment Z.

I would assume that an elf in a forest would have differing equipment than a drow in the underdark for example 0.o

[RebelRogue]

Its not so much micromanagement if you decide that all the race of X are going to have Y in environment Z.

I would assume that an elf in a forest would have differing equipment than a drow in the underdark for example 0.o
Giving all NPCs of a given race powerful/expensive magic items is potentially problematic (at least if there's more than a handful of them). What I'm opposing is the idea of nitpicking WBL for NPCs: a) I think it's a waste of time doing this in detail - changed environment or not (just change those longswords to rapiers - done :smalltongue: ). b) If you insist on doing this, you're ending up with slightly less dangerous opponents (having to spend money on these gadgets); if anything they should have a lower CR!

[Killer Angel]

b) If you insist on doing this, you're ending up with slightly less dangerous opponents (having to spend money on these gadgets); if anything they should have a lower CR!

No. They spend resources to breathe underwater, you spend resources to do the same.
I could agree that a free water breathing isn't too much, but there is: you're not replacing "air breath" with "water breath"... your givin 'em for free "air AND water breath".

You can say that the advantage is negligible and not worth too much, but you cannot negate it's a advantage for free.

[RebelRogue]

No. They spend resources to breathe underwater, you spend resources to do the same.
I could agree that a free water breathing isn't too much, but there is: you're not replacing "air breath" with "water breath"... your givin 'em for free "air AND water breath".

You can say that the advantage is negligible and not worth too much, but you cannot negate it's a advantage for free.
Yes you can, it makes perfect sense (I think it's even suggested in the rules, but not 100% here). Had it been as a PC, I agree a LA might be in order, but for an opponent under circumstances where it will make no mechanical difference what-so-ever? No way I'd change the CR!

[Killer Angel]

Had it been as a PC, I agree a LA might be in order, but for an opponent under circumstances where it will make no mechanical difference what-so-ever? No way I'd change the CR!

But there is a difference. The PC's are spending spell slots only to have water breathing, while the Illithid casters retain all their spells.
(keep in mind that I'm playing the Devil's advocate, here :smallwink:).


No way I'd change the CR!

I agree it's almost negligible, you'd need more advantages to justify 1 point of CR for an encounter.

[RebelRogue]

But there is a difference. The PC's are spending spell slots only to have water breathing, while the Illithid casters retain all their spells.
(keep in mind that I'm playing the Devil's advocate, here :smallwink:).
Demon's advocate here: Who says the PCs aren't aquatic, have picked up items of their own or used other shenanigans to breathe water? :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

Demon's advocate here: Who says the PCs aren't aquatic, have picked up items of their own or used other shenanigans to breathe water? :smalltongue:

If it were for free, then it would be fair... :smalltongue:

[Malbordeus]

the fiend folio has the Half Mindflayer template. its for use with non-human humanoids and monstorous humanoids mostly, as only humans produce true Lithids, the example is a half mindflayer lizardman. you could stick it on shaughin, aquatic elves, and the like to allow them to extend their rule to the bottom of the ocean.

[Flickerdart]

Aberration type creatures breathe unless the creature entry says different. So illithids are stuck with the problem.

You could solve the problem by replacing one of their SLAs with water breathing. It lasts 2 hours/level, so it's a very viable solution. Making it permanent on them also works, since you have to be at least CL11 to do so (following the trends set in the example) and the permanency can't be dispelled by anyone below that caster level.

[KillianHawkeye]

you're not replacing "air breath" with "water breath"... your givin 'em for free "air AND water breath".

You can say that the advantage is negligible and not worth too much, but you cannot negate it's a advantage for free.

So what? The players shouldn't necessarily expect every monster they face to be taken straight from a Monster Manual. Besides, the inability to breathe air is too big a price to pay for the ability to breathe water. How many people do you see playing aquatic elves who can only stay on land for a few hours at a time? I've never even seen one, because most games aren't aquatic.


But there is a difference. The PC's are spending spell slots only to have water breathing, while the Illithid casters retain all their spells.

It's called the home field advantage. Besides, the DM is free to change any monster he wants. If he thinks mind flayers should live in the ocean, BAM! Now they live in the ocean. They shouldn't need to waste their resources on survival if the DM doesn't want them to.


If it were for free, then it would be fair... :smalltongue:

Fairness between PCs and NPCs in a nonissue. There is no requirement that everything be fair.



Improvising on the fly and making stuff up are very important skills for any DM to have. I seriously don't know why you're arguing that the DM has to pay a price in order to customize his own game setting. Even playing as a devil's advocate doesn't make any sense in this situation. :smallannoyed::smallconfused:

[Killer Angel]

Improvising on the fly and making stuff up are very important skills for any DM to have. I seriously don't know why you're arguing that the DM has to pay a price in order to customize his own game setting. Even playing as a devil's advocate doesn't make any sense in this situation. :smallannoyed::smallconfused:

At the risk of repeating myself: a DM can customize all what he wants, even for "free". No problem about it.
But if you're running a campaign with a race that wants to rule the world, you take the race from MM and give the race also the ability to breath underwater, I'm fine with it, as long as you admit that, in this setting, that particular race is stronger than the srd version.
I really don't see what's the problem.

Example: The PCs go adventuring in the desert lands; i customize the setting and decide that, in that area, the spiked chain is not an exotic weapon.
It's my right to do so, but what I'm doing is giving the feat "exotic weapon proficiency" to the bad guys for free.

[RebelRogue]

Example: The PCs go adventuring in the desert lands; i customize the setting and decide that, in that area, the spiked chain is not an exotic weapon.
It's my right to do so, but what I'm doing is giving the feat "exotic weapon proficiency" to the bad guys for free.
But that's a distinct mechanical advantage that might potentially make a difference. The breathing thing only allows encounters in certain terrains that were previously unavailable, but does not increase the difficulty.

[Mastikator]

Create a sub-race of illithids called fisithids, they're like illithids except they breathe water instead, and have fens instead of hands and feet.
Or maybe Octothids/Squidithids, they're pure octopuses, except with all illithid pionic powers.

You're the DM, you are allowed to homebrew :smallwink:

Edit- Oh Oh! Krillthid! Swarm version of illithid! Krill with psionic hivemind

[Killer Angel]

But that's a distinct mechanical advantage that might potentially make a difference. The breathing thing only allows encounters in certain terrains that were previously unavailable, but does not increase the difficulty.

You're right, but in my first post, I've said:

"the DM should keep it in account when setting the difficulty of the encounters (more free abilities given to the critters = increase in CR)"

Note that I used the plural.
If you say: "Illithids live normally not only underground, but also in the deep oceans, so they breathe normally underwater", then you can also say "mmm... if they're a terran AND a water race, their movement apply also to swim". Perfectly logical, isn't it?
And this begins to sound as a template.

(note that I, as a player, wouldn't lament if the DM decide that the Mind Flayers can waterbreath... it's only that I, as a DM, would think twice before doing it)


Create a sub-race of illithids called fisithids, they're like illithids except they breathe water instead, and have fens instead of hands and feet.


Totally agree.