Balancing High Level Play, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the E6.

[FishAreWet]

What is the major balancing point of E6? What logically slows E6's regression into a Trippyverse? In my opinion, it is the removal of all spells 4th level and above. What if we took a lesson from this? Imagine an epic game with these houserules.

-No Vancian casting of 4th level spells or higher.
-No manifesting of 4th level powers or higher.

Now I'm sure there are questions, so let's clarify.

-(Su) and (SpA) remain unaffected.
-Items utilizing higher level spells remain.
-Innate Racial Spellcasting is affected.

My goal is to remove the 'God Wizard' from play. The God Wizard's ability to assume any power in 3.5, even while "specializing" was a problem. Specialization in supernatural abilities means something now. If you want to be a magical man who likes to turn into things, then you go Wizard 5/Thrall of Jubilex 10. Or MoMF. You can no longer say "Wizard 20" and play every archetype at the same time. This obviously requires flavor to be very mutable, as there are only so many PrCs. Thrall of Jubilex being a good example of a class with no 'good' counterpart with similar abilities. But this is okay. Mutable flavor is something we all learned on day 1, right?

Now what does out epic battlefield look like? Well it's dominated by Warlocks, Binders, ToB, Druids(still!), Factotums, Duskblades, DFA and very specific PrC dominated builds. And would you look at that, tier 3 classes are running the show.

Now what does the campaign setting look like? You can no longer call upon singular powers capable of near anything. If you need a Wish, better look for Janni or a Succubus. If you need someone who can shapeshift, better look for that MoMF. Cities no longer spring into and out of existence in Swift Actions.

Issues that remain: Artificers still wreck the game.

Thoughts? Am I missing something major?

[JKTrickster]

What's the benefit of this over the E6 variant? From the looks of it, all you did was removed the level 6 cap so I'm not quite understanding how this has an unique benefit...

EDIT: Oh and someone should correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that this doesn't solve the problem that certain high CR opponents need highly optimized party members (with expected access to spells at that level) in order to be defeated. How does the party remain viable?

[Marnath]

*snip*
to be a magical man who likes to turn into things, then you go Wizard 5/Thrall of Jubilex 10. Or MoMF. *snip

Thoughts? Am I missing something major?

Yes, you're missing something major, namely the level limit of 6 that gives E6 it's name....

[Knaight]

The idea is that with just the spell limit, things are balanced. I'm inclined to disagree, it might actually make martial types too powerful. Testing seems necessary to see how this works.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Does Truenamer still have Gate? Because I can see a high-level Truenamer being quite the force in this setting. Gate on command, teleport anywhere your name is called... carve out a utopia for yourself, where all violent crime is stopped by the threat of the King personally coming to wreck your ****.

[FishAreWet]

@Marnath
The point is to remove the level cap. E6 doesn't balance high level play, it removes it.

@JKTrickster
It expands options and varies power levels while striving to achieve balance and coherency within the setting. I agree, it needs playtested. Do you have any specific examples of difficult creatures?

@Foryn Gilnith
If I were to expand upon house rules I might do something about specific examples such as this. Flat remove certain spells from the game, Gate being the first to go.

[erikun]

A few questions before we can really analyze this variant:

1.) Do higher level spellcasters keep getting higher level spell slots? If so, then Wizard, etc. are not limited in the number of spells available, just it the variety of spells they can cast.

2.) Does this affect Tome of Battle classes and classes which act like spellcasters, such as Warlocks and Truenamers?

3.) Does the Druid still retain Wildshape progression throughout all 20 levels?

4.) How, exactly, does one craft equipment and items requiring higher level spells? Does the Artificer retain their ability to do so?

And finally, what are you attempting to compare this to? To E6, or to standard play?

I can tell you right now that psionics deals with the nerfs far better than magic. They retain full PP, rather than possibly losing spell slots, and can still augment their lower level powers to CR-appropriate checks. Wizards and other spellcasters are stuck with spells with permanently lower DCs and damage caps, requiring the use of metamagic to get higher than 10d6 damage or a 13 + INT modifier difficulty check.

Druids and Artificers are apparently unaffected, as they either ignore or can get around the nerf. Tome of Battle is also unaffected, as are perhaps Warlocks and other psudo-casters.

It appears like it destroys the idea behind E6, if you are comparing it to that. After all, the primary point behind E6 is to keep the HP and other bonuses of the PCs low, within range of "normal" humans. Someone with 200 HP and +30 to checks is well above anything that the "standard" level 1 person could accomplish.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

E6 doesn't remove 4th+ level spells from the game, it just removes their availability from most characters. A Lammasu still has 4th level Cleric spells, a Ghaele still has 7th level Cleric spells, A psionic Mind Flayer (XPH) has 5th level Psion powers, an Immoth (MM2) has 6th level Sorcerer spells, etc. Any of those creatures could take item creation feats to make scrolls, wands, and staves of those 4th+ level spells and a PC who recovers such items can still use the item if the spell appears on their class list. A Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer with Versatile Spellcaster can spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast any 4th level spell from their class list. A Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage casts spells as a 9th level Wizard, so he'd be able to learn and cast 5th level spells in E6. Spells of 4th+ level still exist in E6, but their availability is extremely limited.

[FishAreWet]

@erikun
1. Yes! This allows for metamagic to not be useless.
2. Nope. They become the new powerhouses of the setting.
3. Yes.
4. This is one of the big things I haven't figured out. Any ideas?

Compare this to standard high level play. This is meant to balance out a level 18 game or so. And hopefully stand up to epic.

[Chambers]

@erikun
1. Yes! This allows for metamagic to not be useless.
2. Nope. They become the new powerhouses of the setting.
3. Yes.
4. This is one of the big things I haven't figured out. Any ideas?

Compare this to standard high level play. This is meant to balance out a level 18 game or so. And hopefully stand up to epic.

One of the problems is that by eliminating the spells that can end or avoid the encounter in one shot you are also eliminating spells that are fairly standard, even necessary, at higher levels. Atonement. Break Enchantment. Hallow/Unhallow. Raise Dead. True Seeing. Commune. Mindblank. Greater Dispel Magic. Harm/Heal. Antimagic Field. Teleport. Dominate.

True Seeing & Mindblank, especially. Antimagic Field as well. And you can forget dispelling without Greater Dispel Magic.

Spells like this are needed at higher levels because the monsters are built with the assumption that the players will have access to them. Removing the spells but keeping the monsters means you'll need to adjust the monsters, perhaps heavily.

[balistafreak]

Does this variant still let Artificers scribe/craft with +2 CL? This is a major influx of 4th level spell items, and can possibly be another source of "broke".

Alternatively, use it on purpose. See, now acquiring 4th level spells takes resources!

Is there a (WORKING!) ritual-subsystem of magic for higher level spells? This eliminates all in-combat uses of higher level spells without eliminating high level utility ones.

Although to be truthful some of those are broke as well. :smalltongue:

[JoshuaZ]

ose. See, now acquiring 4th level spells takes resources!

Is there a (WORKING!) ritual-subsystem of magic for higher level spells? This eliminates all in-combat uses of higher level spells without eliminating high level utility ones.


There is the incantation system from Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm). In principle you could make a system out of that. (I've actually been working on a campaign setting where wizards and the like exist but high level wizards are so rare that the vast majority of magic uses the incantation system). It is the closest I've seen to a working system but unfortunately needs a lot more in the way of default incantations. There's a system for DMs to make new ones. If someone made 40 or so that were declared to be common it might be ok. So, um, I guess the answer is probably no?

[Quellian-dyrae]

I think it would work reasonably. I tend to favor higher-powered games myself, but if I were to do something like this, I'd probably add the following additional modifications:

-Remove caster level caps, perhaps with certain rare exceptions (polymorph stuff, maybe). At the very least, this means that mundane Dispel Magic will work throughout your career.

-Save DCs are 10 + 1/2 level + ability modifier, rather than 10 + SL + ability modifier.

-I'd probably allow 4th level spells to be included. I could certainly understand an argument for otherwise, though, since a lot of problem spells start appearing around there. However, a lot of fairly iconic magic (scrying, decent-range teleportation, and as troublesome as it is, polymorph) are there as well, as well as standbys such as Restoration, Neutralize Poison, Panacea, and Death Ward.

-5th, or 4th and 5th if 4th isn't allowed by default, would probably still be available as more ritualized magic, probably with a strict 1 ritual/day limit and a ten minute or longer casting time. A lot of classic high-fantasy effects start appearing thereabouts, such as Teleport, the serious question-answering divinations (Commune and Contact Other Plane), Fabricate, Break Enchantment, Raise Dead, and so on. Though these can be troublesome when easily available, they can go a long way towards adding a really high-power fantasy feel to a game, in my opinion.

[Tyndmyr]

@Marnath
The point is to remove the level cap. E6 doesn't balance high level play, it removes it.


This is not entirely true. It reduces the rate at which you ascend to high level play, yes, but you still get better. Additional 1CR for every 5 bonus feats for the first four CR bumps, IIRC, then an additional 1 CR for every 20 bonus feats. You can eventually get to the point where you are challenging things that are pretty crazy indeed, it's just very slow.

You also have explicit ways to get there, such as dividing out PrCs, including Archmage, into feat chains. This works pretty well so far as balance goes, and actually tend to avoid problems like front loaded or back loaded PrCs nicely.

Level 4 spells are possible to cast in E6 via a wide variety of ways. However, they all require investment, and many are limited in nature. The idea of E6 isn't to stop gameplay at level 6...it's to balance gameplay based around relative balance at level 6.

[Gametime]

Does this variant still let Artificers scribe/craft with +2 CL? This is a major influx of 4th level spell items, and can possibly be another source of "broke".

Alternatively, use it on purpose. See, now acquiring 4th level spells takes resources!

Is there a (WORKING!) ritual-subsystem of magic for higher level spells? This eliminates all in-combat uses of higher level spells without eliminating high level utility ones.

Although to be truthful some of those are broke as well. :smalltongue:

Yeah, adopting a "ritual" system for high-level magic would have to be accompanied by a banlist in any case. Things like Planar Binding already require out-of-combat use, and they're borked.

If your main concern is just reducing combat viability, however, there are any number of crude fixes you could adopt. I'm fond of making most standard action spells instead require one full round action per spell level, making anything above fifth level spells highly infeasible for most combats.

Even then, you have to decide case-by-case whether short duration buffs are excluded from this increase in casting time. There's really no quick 'n' easy fix for the 3.5 magic system.

[Runestar]

So instead of fighters getting the shaft in higher lv play, now everyone gets shafted?

I guess it is balance, in a rather roundabout and lose-lose way...:smallbiggrin:

[FishAreWet]

Atonement. Break Enchantment. Hallow/Unhallow. Raise Dead. True Seeing. Commune. Mindblank. Greater Dispel Magic. Harm/Heal. Antimagic Field. Teleport. Dominate.

True Seeing & Mindblank, especially. Antimagic Field as well. And you can forget dispelling without Greater Dispel Magic.

Why? Why are these spells something that EVERY caster needs? They're still obtainable by class abilities, SLAs and such.

Uncapping Dispel Magic would be a great houserule. As would uncapping most spells. Great idea Queliian. And the DC change is something to think about too.

@Tyndmyr
You're right. I was oversimplifying it in my statement.

[Chambers]

Why? Why are these spells something that EVERY caster needs? They're still obtainable by class abilities, SLAs and such.


My answer was right below what you quoted...


Spells like this are needed at higher levels because the monsters are built with the assumption that the players will have access to them.

I didn't say every caster; I said the players, i.e. the party. The party should have some way to greater dispel, to teleport, to raise dead. Things like that, plus the other spells I listed.

[FishAreWet]

I read what you posted. I'm asking for an expansion on it. Yes, the monsters are built with the assumption the players have access to those spells. They do have access to those spells, they're just more difficult to obtain. All of those things are doable with this system, it just stops all casters from being able to do them.

[Chambers]

I read what you posted. I'm asking for an expansion on it. Yes, the monsters are built with the assumption the players have access to those spells. They do have access to those spells, they're just more difficult to obtain. All of those things are doable with this system, it just stops all casters from being able to do them.

Okay.

So the spells are still in the system. How easy/hard is it for the players to can reliable access to them? And while I understand what you're going for here...your last sentence is kinda strange. The things are doable within the system, yet casters are no longer able to do them? Seems kinda...I dunno.

I guess it all comes down to how easy/hard it is to get access to those things. If there's no reliable access than the encounters with monsters where the players need those things are going to be harder.

[SigCorps]

Spell balance is one of the hardest things in 3.x .


Atonement. Break Enchantment. Hallow/Unhallow. Raise Dead. True Seeing. Commune. Mindblank. Greater Dispel Magic. Harm/Heal. Antimagic Field. Teleport. Dominate.

True Seeing & Mindblank, especially. Antimagic Field as well. And you can forget dispelling without Greater Dispel Magic.

Some of these spells, as they are, mainly just take place of RP. Teleport just makes life easier on everyone by avoiding the encounters on the way back to town. If your toning down magic, then it has to include the monster also. Personally I like taking the higher level spells and making them rituals instead of standard actions, this works for most, but even then there are a few spells I just plain oulaw.

[FishAreWet]

Okay.

So the spells are still in the system. How easy/hard is it for the players to can reliable access to them? And while I understand what you're going for here...your last sentence is kinda strange. The things are doable within the system, yet casters are no longer able to do them? Seems kinda...I dunno.
All is the key word. My issue with high level casters is that they can do everything. Now you must devote significantly more resources to accessing these certain abilities. And we now have a world where a single level 20 wizard can't do... everything.

[Tyndmyr]

Extra Spell is a key way to get spells when all other means fail in E6. It's a pain, but at least it's always possible. And with abuse, can be used for access to higher level spells to a certain degree.

And it has the side benefit of giving you an obviously rare spell that will be in great demand. If using the organizations described in the completes, then there's an easy way to pick up reputation. If not, oh well, just sell access for gold.

[Glimbur]

Uncapping Dispel Magic would be a great houserule. As would uncapping most spells.

This is a bad idea. Ray of Enfeeblement from a 20th level wizard will do 1d6+10 str penalty from a first level slot. Magic Missile will do 9d4+9, no save or attack roll. Hail of Stone(Spell Compendium) does 20d4 with no save, sr, or attack roll. First level slots are cheap. Quickening into a 5th level spell slot hurts a little, but for an extra 20d4 damage in an area with no save or sr I would do it every round.

Likewise, Dispel Magic caps out to encourage you to use higher level slots for dispelling. Otherwise it is cheap to dispel things at high levels.