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Jallorn
2010-09-12, 08:17 PM
What tier is the Wilder in? How does it compare to, say, a psion?

DragoonWraith
2010-09-12, 08:20 PM
It's weaker than a Psion (Cha is worse than Int, fewer Powers Known, no specialist Powers), but probably still Tier 2.

Milskidasith
2010-09-12, 08:23 PM
Wilder is probably a strong T3/weaker T2. It's very inflexible, doesn't get specialist powers, and has a worse chassis than a psion (not a hugely worse one, but slightly), so it's teetering the line between "can break the game in a few ways or do good in a lot of ways" (T3) and "Can win at anything" (T2).

JoshuaZ
2010-09-12, 08:43 PM
Tier 3 generally. Some people argue that it is the low end of Tier 2, but the wilder gets so few powers that this isn't generally accurate. On the other hand, the variant wilder from Mind's Eye that replaces volatile mind with copies of Expanded Knowledge is much more plausibly Tier 2. (Also one of the quick and dirty fixes to deal with the soul knife that has been suggested is to gestalt the soul knife with the wilder. This is tier 2. )

HunterOfJello
2010-09-12, 08:53 PM
A properly made Wilder is in the lower Tier 2.


An improperly made Wilder can fall down into upper Tier 3.

JoshuaZ
2010-09-12, 09:19 PM
A properly made Wilder is in the lower Tier 2.


An improperly made Wilder can fall down into upper Tier 3.

What powers are you selecting to put the wilder into lower Tier 2? I've seen this claim before but no one has shown me a list of powers and it isn't obvious to me which to choose.

PId6
2010-09-12, 09:55 PM
What powers are you selecting to put the wilder into lower Tier 2? I've seen this claim before but no one has shown me a list of powers and it isn't obvious to me which to choose.
Generally, just pick lots of flexible and augmentable powers. Astral Construct, Psionic Charm, Inertial Armor, Vigor, Energy Stun, and Time Hop are all quite nice, with Astral Construct being the best. Psychic Reformation lets you redo your powers known for specific situations when you need it. You'll be very feat-starved (especially if not Educated Wilder), and you'll never be as flexible as a psion, but if you only pick very strong and augmentable powers to maximize wilder's strengths, you should be able to make a T2 wilder.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-12, 10:03 PM
Shifter Wilders can take a Racial Substitution level to gain access to the Egoist powers list. Shifters also gain other good abilities from their shifter substiution levels. Shifters have -2 Cha which is a big penalty to the class, but that can be overcome by taking the Magic-Blooded Template which gives +2 Cha, -2 Wis.

Taking the Educated Wilder alternate class feature from The Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Web Enhancement. Will give the Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level increasing the maximum powers known and allowing access to powers from other lists.

Mantled Wilder can improve the character if you really like the powers from one of the mantles, but it depends on the player.


Wilder's Wild Surge ability lends itself to Metapsionics pretty well especially after you grab Psionic Meditation.



Schism also allows for other shenanigans when used properly.

~

I've never built up a Wilder before, but I think that by using certain alternate class features, racial substitution levels, and the right feats, a Wilder can easily be a Tier 2 class.

With these in place the character won't be as versatile or useful as a Psion, but will be much better than a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer (Tier 3 spellcasters).

~

Purely powers wise, there are lots of versatile powers that can be highly useful.

JoshuaZ
2010-09-12, 10:35 PM
Generally, just pick lots of flexible and augmentable powers. Astral Construct, Psionic Charm, Inertial Armor, Vigor, Energy Stun, and Time Hop are all quite nice, with Astral Construct being the best. Psychic Reformation lets you redo your powers known for specific situations when you need it. You'll be very feat-starved (especially if not Educated Wilder), and you'll never be as flexible as a psion, but if you only pick very strong and augmentable powers to maximize wilder's strengths, you should be able to make a T2 wilder.

Hmm, this is close to the build I was thinking of when I commented above that the educated wilder was Tier 2. I'm not convinced that you can get enough useful powers from a standard wilder build. I'll have to think about this. I hadn't thought about using Psychic Reformation which is a good point and adds a lot of flexibility.

Zaydos
2010-09-12, 10:36 PM
I'd say with web enhancement probably Tier 2. Without it, though, Tier 3.