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SilverLeaf167
2010-09-13, 07:48 AM
One of my players is playing a barbarian, and he would like to take a prestige class soon. We looked through the Complete Warrior, but found nothing interesting. We yet have to look through the other books.

So, I'm asking YOU (Uncle Sam pose) for a good prestige class for a barbarian. Basic info of the character (ask for more if necessary):

Dwarf, Barbarian 5
Weapon: +1 Greataxe
Abilities: 18, 15, 18, 8, 12, 8
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave

The party is relatively unoptimised, and the barbarian doesn't really have a strategy either: he just hits things. He would probably like something to help him do that. Progression of rage etc. isn't really necessary, he rarely uses it.

Kaskos
2010-09-13, 07:53 AM
One of my players is playing a barbarian, and he would like to take a prestige class soon. We looked through the Complete Warrior, but found nothing interesting. We yet have to look through the other books.

So, I'm asking YOU (Uncle Sam pose) for a good prestige class for a barbarian. Basic info of the character (ask for more if necessary):

Dwarf, Barbarian 5
Weapon: +1 Greataxe
Abilities: 18, 15, 18, 8, 12, 8
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave

The party is relatively unoptimised, and the barbarian doesn't really have a strategy either: he just hits things. He would probably like something to help him do that. Progression of rage etc. isn't really necessary, he rarely uses it.


Not sure if you can do it at 5 but it cant be far from it.
Forget Rage - go Frenzy
Frenzied Berserker:
Will help him hit things and frustrate you with just how hard he is hitting them. Just make sure he has a good healer around for when he is about to come out of Frenzy (especially if he has dropped below -10) but dont stand too close, cos if he cant succeed on coming out of Frenzy, you (Cleric) are next in line, friend or not :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-09-13, 08:10 AM
Well, there's a guide in my signature that may contain something of interest for you.

Telonius
2010-09-13, 08:16 AM
Deepwarden from Races of Stone might interest you. Full BAB, 6+int (much-needed, for this character) skill points, d12 hitpoints, Con (instead of Dex) to AC starting at 2nd, and a bunch of other nifty abilities.

If you want to be really nice, you might let him retrain three levels of Barbarian to Ranger, since Uncanny Dodge is also a Deepwarden ability. (That would also get him the Endurance prereq).

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-13, 08:30 AM
Forget Rage - go Frenzy
Frenzied Berserker:
Will help him hit things and frustrate you with just how hard he is hitting them. Just make sure he has a good healer around for when he is about to come out of Frenzy (especially if he has dropped below -10) but dont stand too close, cos if he cant succeed on coming out of Frenzy, you (Cleric) are next in line, friend or not :smallsmile:
You didn't mention which book it is from, but it wasn't that hard to guess. It looks pretty interesting, and really helps with hitting stuff. He won't be able to take it until 10th level, because of the feat prerequisites, or actually 13th level, as he wants to take Great Cleave as soon as possible. Though I guess I might, as the DM, houserule that you only need Intimidating OR Destructive Rage.

And yes, they have a Cleric. Quite the healbot, he is.



Deepwarden from Races of Stone might interest you. Full BAB, 6+int (much-needed, for this character) skill points, d12 hitpoints, Con (instead of Dex) to AC starting at 2nd, and a bunch of other nifty abilities.

If you want to be really nice, you might let him retrain three levels of Barbarian to Ranger, since Uncanny Dodge is also a Deepwarden ability. (That would also get him the Endurance prereq).
I'll consider that. I don't have the info available right now, might check DnD Wiki.
EDIT: Looked it up. Not really that focused on hitting things, I think he'll prefer the Berserker.

Myth
2010-09-13, 08:46 AM
You really can't go wrong with Frenzied Berzerker. There is also the Runescarred Berzerker but it's Faerun specific, although it is a pretty gosh darn good class, at least as far as melee is concerned.

Really you could mix in some assorted ToB goodies, I'm sure the others will suggest them.

Vangor
2010-09-13, 08:55 AM
You didn't mention which book it is from, but it wasn't that hard to guess. It looks pretty interesting, and really helps with hitting stuff. He won't be able to take it until 10th level, because of the feat prerequisites, or actually 13th level, as he wants to take Great Cleave as soon as possible. Though I guess I might, as the DM, houserule that you only need Intimidating OR Destructive Rage.

Without heavy optimization, frenzieds are simply not worth the trouble. While they can easily destroy enemies, they require certain, constant precautions from the party. The easiest way to qualify is to take a level of fighter, permitting you access at 7th, the minimum, without being a human. Usually two levels of fighter and being human does help to give the necessary shock trooper/leap attack feats which help optimize power attack so much, which frenzieds focus on.

My suggestion is Bear Warrior, from Complete Warrior, for five levels and into Warshaper, also from Complete Warrior. Less danger to the party, and you are not spending valuable feats simply on prerequisites, but you have some great strength boosts. Take Multigrab/Gtr Multigrab from Savage Species to simultaneously grapple enemies as a large animal with +16 strength while still attacking without much fear of losing.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-13, 08:57 AM
Bear Warrior is also nice if you can work around the issues of being a bear, which are minimal. Just ask the druid.:smallbiggrin:

nargbop
2010-09-13, 09:01 AM
Frenzied Berserker is mechanically cool and makes everyone else worry. To offset, take a single level of a Tome of Battle class and take the Iron Heart Surge.
Boom, no more frenzy.

Xallace
2010-09-13, 09:04 AM
Bear Warrior is also nice if you can work around the issues of being a bear, which are minimal. Just ask the druid.:smallbiggrin:

Being a bear makes everything better. I'm not sure how you'd tell when he makes the change from dwarf to bear, though. :smallbiggrin:

Frostburn has the the Frostrager, a five-level PrC that nets you Improved Natural Armor and Ice Claws during rage, not to mention you absorb cold damage into HP. It requires Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, and some feat from the book that gives you the [Cold] subtype when you rage.

Book of Exalted Deeds has the Champion of Gwynharwyf, which nets you a bunch of Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) abilities in addition to stacking with your barbarian levels for determining rage uses and when they improve. Requires Power Attack, Knight of Stars (feat from the same book), and a Chaotic Good alignment.

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-13, 09:06 AM
Without heavy optimization, frenzieds are simply not worth the trouble. While they can easily destroy enemies, they require certain, constant precautions from the party. The easiest way to qualify is to take a level of fighter, permitting you access at 7th, the minimum, without being a human. Usually two levels of fighter and being human does help to give the necessary shock trooper/leap attack feats which help optimize power attack so much, which frenzieds focus on.

My suggestion is Bear Warrior, from Complete Warrior, for five levels and into Warshaper, also from Complete Warrior. Less danger to the party, and you are not spending valuable feats simply on prerequisites, but you have some great strength boosts. Take Multigrab/Gtr Multigrab from Savage Species to simultaneously grapple enemies as a large animal with +16 strength while still attacking without much fear of losing.
He wasn't particularly interested in the Bear Warrior, but I guess I should explain its greatest benefits, as he isn't really a whiz with mechanics.

I think I didn't read the Frenzy entry properly xD I didn't notice that part about attacking all nearby creatures.

Person_Man
2010-09-13, 09:07 AM
The best Barbarian PrC are Runescarred Berserker, Totem Rager, Frostrager, Fist of the Forest, Deepwarden, War Hulk, un-errata'd Weretouched Master, 1 level of Bear Warrior, and Frenzied Berseker - if you know exactly what you're doing.

Most of those have various race or build restrictions, so it wouldn't work for a Dwarf Barbarian 5. But you could still use Runescarred Berserker, Frostrager, Deepwarden, and/or 1 level of Bear Warrior.

Teron
2010-09-13, 09:22 AM
He wasn't particularly interested in the Bear Warrior, but I guess I should explain its greatest benefits, as he isn't really a whiz with mechanics.

I think I didn't read the Frenzy entry properly xD I didn't notice that part about attacking all nearby creatures.
While you're at it, point out that Great Cleave is utterly useless except when fighting opponents so weak he doesn't need a specialised feat to wipe them out.

Unless you regularly throw groups of dangerous mle opponents who die in one hit against him, I guess...

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-13, 09:27 AM
Good point, Teron... xD

dextercorvia
2010-09-13, 09:41 AM
The best Barbarian PrC are Runescarred Berserker, Totem Rager, Frostrager, Fist of the Forest, Deepwarden, War Hulk, un-errata'd Weretouched Master, 1 level of Bear Warrior, and Frenzied Berseker - if you know exactly what you're doing.

Most of those have various race or build restrictions, so it wouldn't work for a Dwarf Barbarian 5. But you could still use Runescarred Berserker, Frostrager, Deepwarden, and/or 1 level of Bear Warrior.

Why only 1 level of Bear Warrior? As I recall, that first bear form (Black?) isn't all that tasty. Sure your strength and con are better than with a standard rage, but you can't use a Two Handed weapon, which hurts Power Attack. I've always thought you needed the Brown Bear form at BearWarrior5 to make the trade-off worthwhile.

MarkusWolfe
2010-09-13, 10:24 AM
Frenzied Berserker. All the way. Increased critical multipliers and diehard while raging. I don't even know why there are any other Barbarian PrCs.

comicshorse
2010-09-13, 10:32 AM
Bear Warrior is also nice if you can work around the issues of being a bear, which are minimal. Just ask the druid.:smallbiggrin:

For a relative newcomer to DnD how do you get around the disadvantages ?
I'm playing a Barbarian/War-Shaper at the moment and had considered Bear Warrior but discarded it because I lost all my magic armour and weapons

SilverLeaf167
2010-09-13, 10:40 AM
Frenzied Berserker. All the way. Increased critical multipliers and diehard while raging. I don't even know why there are any other Barbarian PrCs.
If their frenzy is still on when the battle ends, they can be dangerous to their party. The enhanced killing just makes that worse. Of course, you might have your wizard stun you whenever that happens, but it's a real waste of spells and still risky.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-09-13, 11:18 AM
For a relative newcomer to DnD how do you get around the disadvantages ?
I'm playing a Barbarian/War-Shaper at the moment and had considered Bear Warrior but discarded it because I lost all my magic armour and weapons

Wilding Armor (Complete Adventurer, MIC) allows you to retain armor while under some form of shapechange. Mouthpick weapon from Lords of Madness lets you keep your delicious +X Greatsword while also doing claw attacks. Wilding Clasps (MIC) may or may not work on retaining your other gear, too. I can't remember if they work for all shapechanging abilities or just wildshape.

EDIT:

If their frenzy is still on when the battle ends, they can be dangerous to their party. The enhanced killing just makes that worse. Of course, you might have your wizard stun you whenever that happens, but it's a real waste of spells and still risky.

If you're failing the one will save per round, you're doing it wrong. Check out the Friendly Beserker guide for the details.

Vangor
2010-09-13, 11:27 AM
Frenzied Berserker. All the way. Increased critical multipliers and diehard while raging. I don't even know why there are any other Barbarian PrCs.

Uh...Frenzieds don't have increased critical multipliers. They do in NWN2, if I recall, but this is no a reliable source.


I'm playing a Barbarian/War-Shaper at the moment and had considered Bear Warrior but discarded it because I lost all my magic armour and weapons

Provided the item could reasonably function on the bear form, you can still use without anything special. This tends to apply for belts, cloaks, masks, hats, necklaces, and bracers. As well, get Gloves of Man from savage species and be a bear wielding a great axe, also permits rings.


Wilding Armor (Complete Adventurer, MIC) allows you to retain armor while under some form of shapechange... Wilding Clasps (MIC) may or may not work on retaining your other gear, too. I can't remember if they work for all shapechanging abilities or just wildshape.

I believe you mean Beastskin Armor, which only functions for creatures with Wild Shape expending an additional use of Wild Shape to retain the armor in the new form. As for clasps, irrelevant because Bear Form functions similar to Polymorph which functions similar to Alter Self which allows you to maintain equipment the new form could reasonably equip.

Person_Man
2010-09-13, 11:55 AM
Why only 1 level of Bear Warrior? As I recall, that first bear form (Black?) isn't all that tasty. Sure your strength and con are better than with a standard rage, but you can't use a Two Handed weapon, which hurts Power Attack. I've always thought you needed the Brown Bear form at BearWarrior5 to make the trade-off worthwhile.

1 level of Barbarian, 1 level of Bear Warrior, and the Extra Rage feat add +8 Str/+2 Dex/+4 Con unnamed bonuses for 3 combats per day. As non-magical investments go, that's pretty good. (Alter Self or Polymorph or Wild Shape would be better obviously - but it's superior to many other run of the mill melee feat/class investments).

Bear Warrior 2-4 and 6-9 are essentially dead levels, so you should spend the rest of your build on other more efficient classes, like Warshaper, Totemist, Totem Rager, Frenzied Berserker, etc.

Natural attacks qualify for Power Attack, and you can always add more via Warshaper or Totemist/Totem Rager and various feats and grafts. So while it's not as good as your standard two handed Power Attack->Shock Trooper->Leap Attack, it's good enough for most campaigns.

Remember, the goal with melee damage is not to deal 1,000 damage per turn. Doing so will just bring down the ban hammer from your DM, or worse, enemies with 10,000 hit points. The key is to be able to consistently (relatively high To-Hit) and efficiently (no more then 4-6 feats or class levels, IMO) good damage, and then move on to other combos you find fun to play with. You can do this via a wide variety of methods.

comicshorse
2010-09-13, 05:04 PM
Provided the item could reasonably function on the bear form, you can still use without anything special. This tends to apply for belts, cloaks, masks, hats, necklaces, and bracers. As well, get Gloves of Man from savage species and be a bear wielding a great axe, also permits rings.



I believe you mean Beastskin Armor, which only functions for creatures with Wild Shape expending an additional use of Wild Shape to retain the armor in the new form. As for clasps, irrelevant because Bear Form functions similar to Polymorph which functions similar to Alter Self which allows you to maintain equipment the new form could reasonably equip.

Yeah but surely there is no way armour that fits a human is going to fit a bear ?
And how the hell did I become Cosmichorse on your post

Dr.Epic
2010-09-13, 05:07 PM
Well, my two personal favorites are Frenzied Berserker and Bear Warrior.

MarkusWolfe
2010-09-13, 05:18 PM
Uh...Frenzieds don't have increased critical multipliers. They do in NWN2, if I recall, but this is no a reliable source.

Whoops. Was going by the DDO PrC, sorry about that.

Awnetu
2010-09-13, 05:31 PM
Frenzied Berserkers are incredibly easy to take down, just use marbles.

I second the Bearwarrior/Warshaper combination, but if you are not into mechanics that one is a little harder to get excited about.

Eldariel
2010-09-13, 05:36 PM
Runescarred Berserker is the personal favorite, btw.

Awnetu
2010-09-13, 06:24 PM
Runescarred Berserker is the personal favorite, btw.

Speaking of Runescarred Berserkers, I was looking at using the PrC in my current campaign, I was wondering though, which scars would you lean on, and what would you use polymorph self to get?

herrhauptmann
2010-09-13, 06:53 PM
Frenzied Berserker. All the way. Increased critical multipliers and diehard while raging. I don't even know why there are any other Barbarian PrCs.

Cuz not everyone likes accidentally killing the entire party with a 5x power attack. It's their power attack that gets the boost, not their criticals

Eldariel
2010-09-13, 07:00 PM
Speaking of Runescarred Berserkers, I was looking at using the PrC in my current campaign, I was wondering though, which scars would you lean on, and what would you use polymorph self to get?

You mean, which spells? Polymorph...I wouldn't use it at all since it's cheesy but the usual suspects work; 12-Headed Hydra, War Troll, Octopus Tree, Ironmaw, Battlebriar Warbound Impaler, etc.

And other spells, well, Divine Favor is decent, Righteous Might is nice, Heal is excellent, Air Walk is v. good, Anti-Magic Field is the reason to want the class, True Strike has its uses and Freedom of Movement and Dimension Door are fine.


I'd definitely pick:
- Divine Favor
- See Invisibility
- True Strike

- Invisibility
- Keen Edges

- Air Walk
- Death Ward
- Freedom of Movement

- Improved (Greater) Invisibility
- Righteous Might

- Anti-Magic Field

But if you're gonna use it, feel free to take Polymorph at 5, and go ahead and pick up Restoration as your 3rd level 4 spell if you go all the way.

Awnetu
2010-09-13, 07:39 PM
Cuz not everyone likes accidentally killing the entire party with a 5x power attack. It's their power attack that gets the boost, not their criticals

A frenzied berserker who kills his party is doing it wrong, a party killed by a frenzied berserker is also doing it wrong.

and its x4 power attack.

Hmm would Bear Warrior stack with any of those? Polymorph forms as it is.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-13, 08:45 PM
But after leap attack, combat brute, and shocktrooper, it gets up past 4x Power Attack.
Besides, 'doing it wrong,' or 'doing the normal way?' Outside of charop, I don't see many people making their berserkers in such a way that it's possible to reliably make the will save.

Awnetu
2010-09-13, 08:49 PM
But after leap attack, combat brute, and shocktrooper, it gets up past 4x Power Attack.
Besides, 'doing it wrong,' or 'doing the normal way?' Outside of charop, I don't see many people making their berserkers in such a way that it's possible to reliably make the will save.

Yes with all of that it does, but base Frenzied Berserker has only a x4.

Steadfast Determination, Con bonus to will saves and no more failing on a 1.

There is an extraordinarily large number of ways to boost your will saves.

You don't read the Frenzied Berserker text and think, I had better be able to make that DC 20 Will save when I take this class? :smallconfused:

Also, a bag of marbles immediately stops the Frenzied Berserker, any number of casters can shut it down, especially if his will sucks as bad as you have said the ones around you do.


This does not take much in the way of optimization to do.

herrhauptmann
2010-09-13, 09:18 PM
Yes with all of that it does, but base Frenzied Berserker has only a x4.
Steadfast Determination, Con bonus to will saves and no more failing on a 1.
There is an extraordinarily large number of ways to boost your will saves.
You don't read the Frenzied Berserker text and think, I had better be able to make that DC 20 Will save when I take this class? :smallconfused:
Also, a bag of marbles immediately stops the Frenzied Berserker, any number of casters can shut it down, especially if his will sucks as bad as you have said the ones around you do.
This does not take much in the way of optimization to do.
You're preaching to the choir.
I know these things. I advocate them to people who want advice on a FB. And I rarely see them used in games around here.

Don't forget that the FB can start a frenzy as a result of getting hurt. That's the one where I see parties die the most. The one where the FB suddenly needs a DC30+ save because he just took 20+ points of damage from a trap. At level 15, 20 points from a trap is trivial, but that's enough to trigger a frenzy unless you can make the save (using your lower con mod).

Awnetu
2010-09-13, 09:32 PM
I apologize, I do not know what you know, I can only make guesses based on what you have said so far. :smallfrown:

The Berserker still has a round, then he will be able to stop it, if the party is spread out, the charge might be something to worry about, but I think the party at this time would be aware of his... tantrums.

If you're friends say I wanna play this class but not optimize the will save to make the other check as easy as possible, I would say something along the lines of, you are doing the equivalent to building a wizard who put his 18 in Charisma and 14 in Intellligence, with a 10 in Constitution.

dgnslyr
2010-09-13, 11:41 PM
A Dwarf barbarian is just begging to become a Fistbeard Beardfist. Spirit Lion totem (ACF? Variant? IDK which) gives you Pounce instead of Fast Movement, great for nearly any melee-oriented build.

Retraining a few levels into ranger makes getting the prereqs for Deepwarden MUCH easier, costing you rage progression, which can be compensated by a feat, and 2 less HP/level on average, a small price to pay for the goodies. Deepwarden 2 is usually enough for most barbarians, netting you the CON to AC.

After that, Fist of the Forest gives you CON to AC again, and gives you phenomenal unarmed strike progression. Frenzied Berserker is powerful, but care must be taken to not kill your friends. And of course, Bear Warrior is the manliest of barbarian PrCs. Everything is worse with bears. For your enemies, anyway.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-14, 01:11 AM
Easy tip for the berserker, you can spend 10800gp on a command word at-will item of calm emotions. It's up to the DM (that's you) to decide whether a FB can voluntarily fail his will save against such an item though.

Awnetu
2010-09-14, 01:35 AM
Easy tip for the berserker, you can spend 10800gp on a command word at-will item of calm emotions. It's up to the DM (that's you) to decide whether a FB can voluntarily fail his will save against such an item though.

Yet another way to solve the problem.

It is depressing to think people believe that the Berserker is a real threat to a party, anyone who took that class and didn't bother to actually READ its class abilities, deserves what he gets.

TheAzrael
2010-09-14, 02:34 AM
Ok as they said frenzy berserker is an awesome PrC but if you cant somehow safely end the frenzy your party will face doom. And no, Iron Heart surge doesnt work... when frenzied you have to attack and cant do much else, so no, you cant use that manuver. My best suggestion would be a 2lvl dip on Deepwarder (but the feets and more likly skills will make it hard) or/and Runescarred Berserker (antimagic field and heal are awesome). if he has high charisma and goes down the build of indimidating your foes to death there is Champion of Gwynharwyf gives spells like palladin and dont lose anything.

I would highly suggest (cast suggestion) to read this wonderful guide to Barbarians http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525 it has everything you ned to know... (just in case you missed it when the author suggested it :P )

Nick_mi
2010-09-14, 02:49 AM
You really can't go wrong with Frenzied Berzerker. There is also the Runescarred Berzerker

famous last words?

Vangor
2010-09-14, 05:52 AM
Yet another way to solve the problem.

It is depressing to think people believe that the Berserker is a real threat to a party, anyone who took that class and didn't bother to actually READ its class abilities, deserves what he gets.

Not another way to solve the problem, as per below. Iron Heart Surge likely would not work either due to being unable to use abilities requiring patience or concentration, which a standard action to do nothing but control your emotions in a discipline with the key skill of Balance, a Dexterity-based skill which Frenzy disallows as well (not as though Balance is used for the maneuver, but helps reason why Iron Heart Surge does require what the Frenzied cannot do in Frenzy) likely requires patience or concentration; this is not an attack. Remember, CW was published a few years before ToB, so while Frenzy does not disallow maneuvers by virtue of maneuvers not having been around the ability does contain an "or any abilities that require patience or concentration" clause atop a good list of what is disallowed.

Little aside from strong will saves or a party taking precautions constantly stops the threat of the Frenzied. To get strong will saves, you're investing additional feats into Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and frankly Iron Will, plus you should have at least a +4 Con neck and a +3 Saves cloak, and then you can be reasonably assured you can end a Frenzy prematurely, just end. What you do about unseen damage higher than 10...

Mostly, the same people who suggest the threat of the Frenzied can easily be overcome are the same people who would ignore he will be a Barb 6/Frenzy 1. He won't have the feats or money for much else, and he only has Frenzy as a bonus for four levels; great, but you are now behind on optimizing power attack and a ways away from Frenzied improvements. Not saying the class is bad, but the amount of effort and potential risk is not for most players who are asking about Barbarian PrCs or for groups who do not offer the advice.


Easy tip for the berserker, you can spend 10800gp on a command word at-will item of calm emotions. It's up to the DM (that's you) to decide whether a FB can voluntarily fail his will save against such an item though.

Ignoring the entire "nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls," this would work. Otherwise, I am doubtful a DM would say a Frenzied who is willing and able to hack apart the person with the item likely thinks he should fail his will save. And since any Frenzied should be able to usually beat the will save to stop Frenzy prematurely, he will probably beat Calm Emotions with ease or else remain susceptible to SoD galore and require a ready and conscious user of said magic item at all times.

Psyx
2010-09-14, 06:00 AM
Frenzied Berserker is all fun and good until a PC dies horribly when the FB fails a will save. Not much else is worth worrying about, especially as all the Barby PrCs are pretty heavily themed.

What's wrong with sticking with a Barbarian, if he has no specific theme in mind? PrCs are there to provide theme, rather than just crunch in the case of classes who have reasonable stuff all the way through.

Maybe just pick up a level or two of another base class to broaden abilities?

Awnetu
2010-09-14, 08:59 AM
Mostly, the same people who suggest the threat of the Frenzied can easily be overcome are the same people who would ignore he will be a Barb 6/Frenzy 1. He won't have the feats or money for much else, and he only has Frenzy as a bonus for four levels; great, but you are now behind on optimizing power attack and a ways away from Frenzied improvements. Not saying the class is bad, but the amount of effort and potential risk is not for most players who are asking about Barbarian PrCs or for groups who do not offer the advice.



Of course, but I believe whole heartedly that if you are going down that route, before you even start it, you have the necessary precautions so you can control Frenzy, both for you and the party. Anyone who doesn't bother to do either of those things, is imo 'Doing it wrong', in the same way that pointed the Sphere of Annihilation at the party Wizard is 'doing it wrong'.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-14, 12:41 PM
Not another way to solve the problem, as per below. Iron Heart Surge likely would not work either due to being unable to use abilities requiring patience or concentration, which a standard action to do nothing but control your emotions in a discipline with the key skill of Balance, a Dexterity-based skill which Frenzy disallows as well (not as though Balance is used for the maneuver, but helps reason why Iron Heart Surge does require what the Frenzied cannot do in Frenzy) likely requires patience or concentration; this is not an attack. Remember, CW was published a few years before ToB, so while Frenzy does not disallow maneuvers by virtue of maneuvers not having been around the ability does contain an "or any abilities that require patience or concentration" clause atop a good list of what is disallowed.

Little aside from strong will saves or a party taking precautions constantly stops the threat of the Frenzied. To get strong will saves, you're investing additional feats into Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and frankly Iron Will, plus you should have at least a +4 Con neck and a +3 Saves cloak, and then you can be reasonably assured you can end a Frenzy prematurely, just end. What you do about unseen damage higher than 10...

Mostly, the same people who suggest the threat of the Frenzied can easily be overcome are the same people who would ignore he will be a Barb 6/Frenzy 1. He won't have the feats or money for much else, and he only has Frenzy as a bonus for four levels; great, but you are now behind on optimizing power attack and a ways away from Frenzied improvements. Not saying the class is bad, but the amount of effort and potential risk is not for most players who are asking about Barbarian PrCs or for groups who do not offer the advice.



Ignoring the entire "nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls," this would work. Otherwise, I am doubtful a DM would say a Frenzied who is willing and able to hack apart the person with the item likely thinks he should fail his will save. And since any Frenzied should be able to usually beat the will save to stop Frenzy prematurely, he will probably beat Calm Emotions with ease or else remain susceptible to SoD galore and require a ready and conscious user of said magic item at all times.

I never said that the FB should be the one to use the item. Just that it costs 10800. Divided 4 ways that's only 2700. at level 7 that's really not that bad. The levels of damage a FB is going to reach are worth the risk IMO. Besides, a pumped will save is a good idea anyway.

Vangor
2010-09-14, 04:16 PM
I never said that the FB should be the one to use the item. Just that it costs 10800. Divided 4 ways that's only 2700. at level 7 that's really not that bad. The levels of damage a FB is going to reach are worth the risk IMO. Besides, a pumped will save is a good idea anyway.

Exactly why I noted afterward why he would not auto-fail a save against someone he was trying to kill. A couple charges a day (10 should suffice since I am doubtful the Frenzy will use more) on an item is not a bad idea, just a layer of safety on the numerous other precautions a party and the Frenzied should take.

As for the levels of damage a Frenzied will reach, the problem is "will". While Frenzy is nothing to laugh at, the DC20 starts immediately (and 10+Damage). The amount of feats required to enter and to get a decent save, plus the magical supplies...I don't see the threat worth the damage which will be less than an optimized power attack/charge Barbarian. For people asking for PrCs, Frenzied comes up constantly but has drawbacks unlike most others which deal great damage but do become outclassed, eventually, by the Frenzied.

Jarveiyan
2010-09-15, 03:55 AM
Have you tried Battlerager Races of Faerun pg.179?