3.5 epitome of elven light infantry Help

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Heres the deal. Saturday, we were playing our game. The DM sucks, but Im just glad I don't have to do it for once, so I help him out where I can, and just enjoy playing.

The party is fairly large (six people) but most of the people are new-ish to the game. The DM also lacked an understanding of ECL, which i managed to enlighten him on. However, the characters were made, so... ?

Half Nymph, Ranger 2
Tiefling Favored Soul 3
Drow Wizard 1 (wants to focus on Necromancy??)
Half Dragon Elf Cleric 1
Pureblood Yuanti Sorcerer 1

I had a Rogue 2/ Ranger 2. However, being the most experienced player, I was constantly looking out for my less well built brethren. This culminated in my character dying for the Drow, by leaping in front of a Scorching Ray trap. It sucks when you lose a character, and i can write one up in 20 minutes or less, if I need to. The Drow player can't, and he spent time on his spells and all that. I felt bad for him. *shrug*

I refuse to make the same character concept twice in a row. I want to make the "perfect" Elf Light Infantry, modeled on the Companion Guard Style feat from Greyhawk. I believe it was in Dragon Magazine 315.

I have access to all core classes. I do not have access to any splatbook classes. However, I can use feats and skill tricks and whatnot from them. I also cannot use Tome of Battle, before it gets mentioned.

I want to an Elf, I want to be good with both bow and sword, and maybe some spells, Divine or Arcane, i dont care. I also want skill points. I want to dislike the Drow that got my last character killed. just for kicks.

I was thinking maybe Ranger 4, with the Loner Flaw, which would give me the Companion Guard Style Feat at level 4. I would go the archery route, and pick up Rapid Shot at 2, Manyshot at 6, and Improved Precise Shot at 11. I was also of course going to pick up Arcane Hunter for Favored Enemy 1.

STR 14
DEX 20 (includes level 4 boost)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 10

1 Quick Draw
3 Power Attack
6 point blank shot
9 precise shot
12 Improved Buckler Defense?
15 Practiced Spellcaster?
18 Improved Favored Enemy?

I also have gold for my level, which I believe is 5400 gp. thats all I got so far. Any Help would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance everyone!

[Flickerdart]

It's a shame you can't use the Scout, because it's pretty much exactly what you want.

You may find it beneficial to take a 4-level Fighter dip to grab Dodge (except you'll want one of the alternative dodges), Mobility and Spring Attack, then get Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz when you can to increase your attacks. Snap Kick will increase them further, and a Barbarian dip for Whirling Frenzy further still. Dual Strike lets you attack with a second weapon when you're dual-wielding.

So eventually you will get 6 attacks on a Spring Attack. Not too shabby, eh? Let's get a feat progression going here...

Wood Elf

1 Dodge
Fighter 1 Two Weapon Fighting
Fighter 2 Mobility
3 Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 4 Spring Attack
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Dual Strike
12 Bounding Assault
15 Snap Kick
18 Rapid Blitz

You can get all the feats in earlier if you use Flaws or take Fighter for some more levels. Spring Attack, ITWF, Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz are sadly set in stone due to BAB requirements - you'll need full BAB to get Rapid Blitz at the end.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Snap Kick is from Tome of Battle, which is not allowed by the DM. NO classes, no feats, nothing. Its the one splatbook that I can have absolutely nothing out of. All the other splatbooks, I can have feats and whatnot. But not Tome of Battle...

Also, I don't particularly want to TWF. my last character was a dual wielding Rogue Ranger, I want to focus more on archery, and have a good melee, via power attack.

Thanks for the Spring attack chain though... i hadnt given it much thought.

[Eldariel]

If you want some arcane magic and skill, simple Ranger 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight -> should work. Starting off as Ranger 1/Wizard 3 'cause it's failtastic to not have level 2 spells yet; maybe take 2nd level of Ranger next and then Wizard into EK.

Pick Rapid Shot off Ranger (it's really all you need for archery competence), focus your feats on martial competence, profit of your arcane power. It won't be as good as a straight Wizard but goes for the quintessential Elf-feel quite well and is reasonably competent overall. Practiced Spellcaster is obvious, as is Arcane Strike eventually, and Knowledge Devotion.


Ranger covers all the Elven skills like Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently and so on so you can cram some points in those. I'd consider Fire Elf for the Int-boost. This would get you respectable 16 starting Int, at the cost of some Cha (infantry doesn't care).

And I see your party is short a trapfinder now; how about the Trap Expert alternative class feature for Ranger from Dungeonscape to cover for that now? Trades Track (not really all that necessary anyways, and can be picked up for a feat) for Trapfinding and the necessary skills in class (which, of course, works out for you since Int is your casting stat going this route and thus will probably be heavily buffed). I'd imagine your DM would just be happy that that particular issue gets covered without much hassle too.

[Gavinfoxx]

Elven light infantry to me, means Swift Hunter builds:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0

[Flickerdart]

Snap Kick is from Tome of Battle, which is not allowed by the DM. NO classes, no feats, nothing. Its the one splatbook that I can have absolutely nothing out of. All the other splatbooks, I can have feats and whatnot. But not Tome of Battle...

Also, I don't particularly want to TWF. my last character was a dual wielding Rogue Ranger, I want to focus more on archery, and have a good melee, via power attack.

Thanks for the Spring attack chain though... i hadnt given it much thought.
4 attacks on a Spring Attack, then. Saves you 5 feats. When you said infantry, I naturally assumed you wanted to be infantry, not an archer. :smalltongue:


Elven light infantry to me, means Swift Hunter builds:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0
Swift Hunter isn't that useful when you can't take scout.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, I missed the "do not have access to splatbook classes" clause. Damn.

Do you have access to SRD classes as 'core'? How about classes that are official and fully findable online? How about SRD variants of PHB classes?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I have access to all of these things. However, the DM is not allowing these things. Yes, I very easily could have built a swift hunter with greater manyshot, but that isnt an option.

"When you said infantry, I naturally assumed you wanted to be infantry, not an archer."

When i say Elven Light Infantry, I mean: A lightly armored elf foot soldier who can hit things with a sword as well as a bow. Just to clear that bit up. As far as I am aware Infantry includes ranged soldiers, and does not mean specifically melee. I believe infantry just means you are on foot.

Otherwise, we ought to be taking away our infantry soldier's M16's and Beretta M9's. and giving them just KA-BAR knives and machetes. Which I believe would suck.

[Gavinfoxx]

In all eras, Romans had plenty of throwing spears, throwing darts, etc. etc. Even the ones that were basically the heavy infantry.

To me, light infantry means "mobility" and "skirmishing" which is why I said the swift hunter thing. Can you plead with the DM to allow Scout and that sort of build? Buy him a cake or something.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Hehe. Buy him a cake?

1.) He isnt a good enough DM to deserve a cake.

2.) He certainly doesnt need another cake. He might have a heart attack, and then I'd have to DM. Again. As always.

3.) The cake is a lie.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

By the way peoples, this doesnt have to be optimized or anything. We are in a large group (equals more actions for our side, and actions are the greatest currency in D&D) and no one else is optimized. At all. Drow Wizard? Tiefling Favored Soul? Come on guys. Optimization is not necessary. As long as it works fairly well, my in depth and tactical understanding of D&D will make me the hero my group needs.

Don't sweat the crunch. :amused:

[Eldariel]

By the way peoples, this doesnt have to be optimized or anything. We are in a large group (equals more actions for our side, and actions are the greatest currency in D&D) and no one else is optimized. At all. Drow Wizard? Tiefling Favored Soul? Come on guys. Optimization is not necessary. As long as it works fairly well, my in depth and tactical understanding of D&D will make me the hero my group needs.

Don't sweat the crunch. :amused:

Well, I'll repeat my suggestion anyways; Wizardy is very "Elven" in D&D and an Archer/Warrior weaving magic into the arrow and sword seems like the quintessential elf warrior to me so the shell seems way most natural. The fact that you can be rather efficient while at it shouldn't hurt.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I dont quite care so much about the spellcasting... we have a wizard, sorcerer, and cleric. Im okay with a skillful half spellcaster. If I were going to go wizard/gish thing, I'd go ranger/wizard/Knight Phantom. (from Eberron). Knight Phantom is like Eldritch Knight except better...

Right now, I'm really leaning towards Ranger, maybe ranger fighter... is this wrong of me? am I perverted for wanting to play a tier 4 class through to level 20...?

Is it feasible? For some reason, this really is appealing to me... Is the non-spellcasting Ranger from Complete Champion worth it? Are Fighter levels (2?) worth it?

[mobdrazhar]

have you possibly though of taking some levels in duskblade for the casting/melee aspects?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I have thought of duskblade... in fact, Im on the fence as to whether to create a duskblade or ranger thingy deal. However, making a optimized Duskblade isn't difficult. power attack, Obtain familiar, Knowledge devotion.... I got the duskblade down.

However, I don't really think our party needs another low skill, arcane magic user... seeing as that we have a wizard and sorcerer. If i can't make a decent Elf sword/bow/skill character.... then I will make a duskblade, yes. But that isn't a challenge, and therefore isn't as fun.... :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

I dont quite care so much about the spellcasting... we have a wizard, sorcerer, and cleric. Im okay with a skillful half spellcaster. If I were going to go wizard/gish thing, I'd go ranger/wizard/Knight Phantom. (from Eberron). Knight Phantom is like Eldritch Knight except better...

I thought you said you didn't have non-Core classes? Well, whatever. And actually, I'd rate Eldritch Knight higher than Knight Phantom; it gets you two more feats (one less prerequisite, and a bonus feat) vs. Knight Phantom's spell-likes-you-might-as-well-just-cast.


Right now, I'm really leaning towards Ranger, maybe ranger fighter... is this wrong of me? am I perverted for wanting to play a tier 4 class through to level 20...?

Is it feasible? For some reason, this really is appealing to me... Is the non-spellcasting Ranger from Complete Champion worth it? Are Fighter levels (2?) worth it?

Non-spellcasting Ranger is quite poor. It doesn't gain anything much and gives up access to...well, spells. Fighter isn't worth it unless you're taking them for a specific reason; look at what you'd get and then what you're missing and if it's two huge feats, you should consider Fighter. Straight Ranger could still take Sword of the Arcane Order and enjoy a decent spell list for some combat ability, so that's something to think about.

Ranger in and of itself doesn't really give you much for fighting; it's more focused on general utility. You'll probably spend your feats on that. Feel free to run Ranger through if you want to; it sounds like you've already decided and if that's what you want, go for it.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

oh... right... Knight Phantom. haha. Yeah. I have these books, the DM justdoesnt like them... I forget sometimes. sorry about the confusion there, haha...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, suggest that the Necromancer get a Skeletal Minion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) in place of his Familiar, and give that thing a tower shield. Have it use the shield for total cover and go set off traps for the party, use the shield for total cover and stand in the way of a powerful opponent, use the shield for total cover and block a doorway to hold off enemy reinforcements, hold the ladder when you're hanging up a picture, wash the dishes, and anything else it could prove useful for.

Companion Guard's availability is limited to Gray Elves of a certain region, so you're likely to be stuck with a Dex/Int-based character. Swashbuckler would be perfect assuming you could add Insightful Strike to your Companion Guard weapons, its just a shame you can't use it though. If you can get it allowed, start out Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 1, and plan to go Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian.

Judging by what you have available, what's already in your party, and the character you just lost, I'd suggest going with something like a Fighter/Wizard build. This is assuming you can use prestige classes, of course, as most hybrid builds like that won't even function without them. Start out Fighter 1/ Wizard 3, and plan to go Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8. Use the Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) variant from UA to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. If you can use Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#elfParagon) from UA you should begin play as Wizard 1/ Elf Paragon 3 (taking Elf Paragon at 1st level) and switch the first six levels of the build to Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Elf Paragon 3. Champion Guard would have to be delayed until 6th level, but you can use a bow and spells until then. Get an Elvencraft bow from Races of the Wild, since it can be used as a melee weapon when necessary.

You can get a Hummingbird familiar from Dragon 323 page 98, and get as many of the Elf Wizard racial substitution levels as you can. Wizard 1 gets you Generalist Wizardry, which grants an extra spell per day of your highest level available and gives you extra spells gained per level. If you're not using Elf Paragon you can get the Wizard 3 substitution level, which will double your familiar's benefit. A Hummingbird grants +4 Initiative, so this makes it +8 Initiative instead. Elf Paragon is definitely the better choice, considering the higher HD, amazing skills, and other bonuses, so definitely go that route if possible.

Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration from MIC starting out, and cast Luminous Armor (BoED) on yourself every day. Eventually try to get a Lesser Rod of Extend to use on that and other buffs. Shield is going to be one of your primary defensive spells once you get Abjurant Champion, which will increase the AC bonus granted by both of those spells. Grease, Color Spray, and Wall of Smoke are good spells to pick, and Web and Glitterdust are strong choices for 2nd level spells. Once you start getting into melee Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, and Whirling Blade should prove useful, and be sure to use a Lesser Rod of Extend whenever you cast Wraithstrike. Eventually plan on taking Extend Spell and Persistent Spell to persist your low level buffs the old fashioned way, so you'll have Wraithstrike and Bladeweave up for 24 hours at a time.

This is designed to be an extremely powerful character build, so you should play it as a Batman primarily (stop the enemies from being effective, buff your allies so they're more effective) but still be able to get into the fight when necessary. If you're keeping the opponents from killing the party and making the party more effective at killing the opponents, instead of just killing everything for them, they should end up feeling like their characters are highly capable and have a lot of fun playing.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

That skeletal Minion is a brilliant idea. I did not know that existed. At all. As well as a hummingbird familiar. haha.

Anyway, I talked with my DM and a couple of my fellow players. The DM has crafted his own little campaign world, and he says that if I want a campaign specific feat or substitution levels, I can only choose from one other campaign setting. (such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, etc.)

The other spellcaster players say that they will take your advice and use it themselves, if I play a half spellcaster or skill monkey.. Im okay with that. Basically, they want at least a secondary combatant. I don't blame them, they want to be the spellcasters, they need someone to stand in front of them for a few levels, and sneak around and shoot/stab things. I get it.

So back to that half spellcaster thing...

Im looking at Shooting Star Ranger Sub levels (level four only, since I believe it still gives me the bonus spells for levels 8, 11, and 14). In combination with that, I am looking at The Sword of The Arcane Order, and Practiced Spellcaster. So, at level 20, I should have a caster level of 16, with Practiced Spellcaster and The Shooting Star Ranger sub levels...

I will have Ranger Combat Style feats... Skill Points... armor... SO i have questions.

1.) Combat Style I should take? (can use any Dragon magazine alternate ones too.)

2.) I assume the arcane spells that SoTAO feat gives me have spell failure like a wizard as well. Am I wrong? are they somehow "Divine-Arcane" spells?

3.) Any Flaws that I ought to take to get all these feats in? Any that wouldn't cripple me too badly?

4.) Any suggestions for weapon and armor to use to complement the feat choices and Arcane spells?

5.) Any other feats I really ought to have?

Thank you everyone for being so helpful, I know I've been difficult to answer within the parameters that both myself and my DM have.

[Dralnu]

So you want to be an elf, you want to shoot with a bow and swing with a sword equally well, and you have no desire to be optimized?

Elf Fighter 4. Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Hooray! Mission accomplished.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"So you want to be an elf, you want to shoot with a bow and swing with a sword equally well, and you have no desire to be optimized?

Elf Fighter 4. Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Hooray! Mission accomplished."

There is a difference between not being optimized and shooting myself in the foot. And then the other foot. And then my right arm for good measure.

Besides, I'm looking at Ranger with Shooting Star substitution levels and The Sword of the Arcane Order. As I explained in my previous post. It may not be optimized yet, but it definitely beats a regular old ranger, let alone an elf fighter.

So, any advice geared towards that would be much appreciated.

[Andion Isurand]

You can get a Hummingbird familiar from Dragon 323 page 98, and get as many of the Elf Wizard racial substitution levels as you can. Wizard 1 gets you Generalist Wizardry, which grants an extra spell per day of your highest level available and gives you extra spells gained per level. If you're not using Elf Paragon you can get the Wizard 3 substitution level, which will double your familiar's benefit. A Hummingbird grants +4 Initiative, so this makes it +8 Initiative instead. Elf Paragon is definitely the better choice, considering the higher HD, amazing skills, and other bonuses, so definitely go that route if possible.

You may want to consider the domain wizard variant over the generalist wizardry of the first elven wizard substitution level. But the 3rd level of elf wizard substitution is golden.

[Greenish]

Besides, I'm looking at Ranger with Shooting Star substitution levels and The Sword of the Arcane Order. As I explained in my previous post. It may not be optimized yet, but it definitely beats a regular old ranger, let alone an elf fighter.

So, any advice geared towards that would be much appreciated.Mystic Ranger? Longsword is good enough, and quite elf-y, so losing other martial melee proficiencies isn't that bad.

[Eldariel]

Mystic Ranger? Longsword is good enough, and quite elf-y, so losing other martial melee proficiencies isn't that bad.

Listen to the man. And it's actually a good character; relatively powerful up to how strong you want to be, really. Pick Archery combat style since it bypasses the horrible prerequisite of PBS entirely, saving you a feat. Lacking Precise Shot could be a problem for a focused archer but if you intend on wielding a melee weapon in addition anyways, it's fine. So...yeah, Ranger (Mystic or just standard with Shooting Star substitution) with Sword of the Arcane Order from 1 to 20; should have you covered just fine.

[Psyx]

I like Companion Guard style.

You'll be wanting a high dex for it, and that's a shame to take without getting combat reflexes, too. As far as the reach/not reach thing goes, maybe consider taking improved unarmed combat. It's not 'optimal', but I love the idea of someone stepping up close who then provokes getting an elbow to the face. Or you could just use gauntlets to do the job.

Champion of Cor. Lor. from RoW is really good. Dex to damage, and makes it easier to move in armour. Lots of feats, though.

Dread commando is cool, too.

I'd be tempted to start Elf Ranger 1 (CoW substitution level) for a bucket of skill points (8 base) and perhaps an enhanced favoured enemy bonus (+3 versus drowkind). Level 2 gets you rapid shot, of course.

If you can use material from Drow of the Underdark, then Fighter 1 with the Hit and Run ACF (not specifically for drow only) adds 2 to initiative and dex to damage vs. flat footed foes and you loose heavy armour and shields. Perfect for a skirmisher.

Power attack of course, because you have a two-hander.

Maybe rogue in there for sneak attack and evasion. Three levels at most, going for the half sneak attack on flanking thing ACF.


I would go for a wild elf myself (are those the ones who have +2str for no apparent reason?!), or a wood elf. My first three levels would be:

Elf ranger 1 Feat: Power attack
Elf ranger 2 Bonus feat: Rapid shot
Fighter 1 Feat: Companion guard style. ACF: Hit and Run Bonus feat: Combat Reflexes

You'll have a whole load of skills and some cool skirmishy stuff, and can then start eyeing up prestige classes.

[Eldariel]

I'd be tempted to start Elf Ranger 1 (CoW substitution level) for a bucket of skill points (8 base) and perhaps an enhanced favoured enemy bonus (+3 versus drowkind). Level 2 gets you rapid shot, of course.

I prefer Undead; it's enhanced too and a really common FE.

[Greenish]

I would go for a wild elf myself (are those the ones who have +2str for no apparent reason?!), or a wood elf.Wild Elf is +2 dex, -2 int. Wood Elf is +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int.

[Edit]: Whoops, reading fail on my part.

[Psyx]

I prefer Undead; it's enhanced too and a really common FE.

So do I, but the OP said he wanted to specifically dislike drow.


"+2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int."

That's where the money is. Those elves are sure strong but dumb!
[+2 dex, -2 cha would have made a million times more sense, based on fluff and reasonableness]

[Greenish]

[+2 dex, -2 cha would have made a million times more sense, based on fluff and reasonableness]I think the WotC designers with their hard-on on elves couldn't even imagine giving one a charisma penalty.

[Eldariel]

So do I, but the OP said he wanted to specifically dislike drow.

The way I understood it, he wanted to play an Elf so that he could naturally hate Drow; that is, hating Drow comes with the race and thus doesn't need to be emphasized in the build.

[Psyx]

I think the WotC designers with their hard-on on elves couldn't even imagine giving one a charisma penalty.

Which always strikes me as odd, considering the fluff that pretty much portrays wild elves as psychopathic maniacs! I see no sense in any elf ever getting a str bonus. Dumping the Con penalty to reflect their rugged lives and replacing it with Cha just makes so much more sense to me.

It annoys me, because I love wild and wood elves and yet I massively resent the blag that they've been given.

I don't think we can really claim a hard-on for elves on WoTC's part... not after reading the amount of blag that Kobolds get, anyway. Elves pale into insignificance.

[Shenanigans]

Although you already have stated that you can go beyond Core, have you considered Arcane Archer? It's a gishy class and you would have to focus a bit more on archery, but it's very handy to pop certain spells into your arrows. Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) is also pretty sharp, and not as arcane.

[Eldariel]

Which always strikes me as odd, considering the fluff that pretty much portrays wild elves as psychopathic maniacs! I see no sense in any elf ever getting a str bonus. Dumping the Con penalty to reflect their rugged lives and replacing it with Cha just makes so much more sense to me.

It annoys me, because I love wild and wood elves and yet I massively resent the blag that they've been given.

I don't think we can really claim a hard-on for elves on WoTC's part... not after reading the amount of blag that Kobolds get, anyway. Elves pale into insignificance.

Actually, in 3.0 Wood Elves had penalty to Cha and Int. The issue was that they kinda sucked so they'll make do with just one and since Wood Elves are apparently close to Wild Elves, they decided on the same penalty.

And Elf hard-on...well, they gave most Elves a Con-penalty and used Mialee art which makes me think they hate Elves.


Although you already have stated that you can go beyond Core, have you considered Arcane Archer? It's a gishy class and you would have to focus a bit more on archery, but it's very handy to pop certain spells into your arrows. Peerless Archer (Silver Marches) is also pretty sharp, and not as arcane.

Issue with AA is that it sucks. It doesn't advance spells and its only worthwhile class feature is attaching spells to arrows. The remaining 9 levels could literally be blank for all it matters. As such, I'd be wary of suggesting it to anyone.

[Cieyrin]

Listen to the man. And it's actually a good character; relatively powerful up to how strong you want to be, really. Pick Archery combat style since it bypasses the horrible prerequisite of PBS entirely, saving you a feat. Lacking Precise Shot could be a problem for a focused archer but if you intend on wielding a melee weapon in addition anyways, it's fine. So...yeah, Ranger (Mystic or just standard with Shooting Star substitution) with Sword of the Arcane Order from 1 to 20; should have you covered just fine.

That's what the Precise weapon special ability is for. :smalltongue:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Wow, thanks for the sudden flood of posts everyone, very helpful...

Mystic Ranger: As much as I like the idea of having full casting up to level 10, d8 HD, 6 sp per level, and decent class abilities.... It seems a tad cheese. The shooting Star sub levels and Sword of the Arcane Order are meant to be with each other... I think Mystic Ranger is a little cheesy and abusive of it... So I think Im gonna skip that part.

Companion Guard Style: I get to choose only one campaign setting to draw extra feats and sub levels from, and it's Forgotten Realms now. Shooting Star ranger sub levels and Sword of the Arcane Order is about 80 times better than Companion Guard Style, no matter how much I like the flavor.

Favored Enemy: Drow: I'm taking Arcane Hunter variant. that is, my first Favored Enemy applies to all spellcasters and monsters that cast spells from a list. It seems odd combining that with a follower of Mystra, and Sword of the Arcane Order... But it does state that the Order of Shooting Stars hunts down magical experiments and evil spellcasters. So I already hate that Drow, being as that he is a Drow Wizard who happens to be evil.

I like this character concept a lot; he can shoot things with a bow, cast some divine spells up to level 4, can cast any wizard spell up to level 4, and can hit things with a sword. Heres what i got so far:

STR 14
DEX 20 (including L. 4 boost)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 10

Flaw: Foe Specialist (-1 on bluff, sense motive, spot, survival against non-favored enemies)

Feat: Sword of the Arcane Order ( I justified attaching this feat to this flaw, by saying the Mystra followers trained me to kill Arcanists specifically, and to use arcane magic. It was the only way to get this feat at level 4.)

1. Finesse
3. Improved Buckler Defense
6.
9.
12. Practiced Spellcaster
15. Improved Favored Enemy?
18.

What feats should I fill up on everyone? As always, thanks for all the help.

[Greenish]

Both Finesse fighting and ranged have a dilemma: where does the damage come from?

I should think you'd do better to lower the dex a tad and perhaps invest some to strength. Using two-hander is the least feat hungry of melee styles. Swap Finesse for PA, and perhaps grab Favored Power Attack at some point.

Buckler isn't that amazing: +1 AC for -1 to-hit isn't a very good trade, especially since you pay a feat for it.

With a high dexterity, Combat Reflexes (and perhaps Robilar's Gambit later) wouldn't go amiss.

An Elvencraft bow (RotW) can also be used as a melee weapon in a pinch, so I suggest looking into it.

[Edit]: Of course, there are finessable two-handed weapons too, for PA, if you're willing to burn feats for them. Spiked Chain might not be within the style, but an Elven Courtblade (1d10, 18/x2, RotW) could be nice. Imp. Weapon Familiarity (CWar/RoS) gets you proficiency to it and a couple of other elf-y exotic weapons.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"I should think you'd do better to lower the dex a tad and perhaps invest some to strength"

The DM says I rolled what I rolled, and the attribute scores are no longer negotiable. I gotta work with what I got.

"Both Finesse fighting and ranged have a dilemma: where does the damage come from?"

I was thinking about that too, but i can't really think of a way around it.... Too much Dex for my own good, I guess. hehe. Dex.

"Buckler isn't that amazing: +1 AC for -1 to-hit isn't a very good trade, especially since you pay a feat for it."

I am allowed a mithral buckler. If i take the I. Buckler Defense i can retain my shield AC while casting spells. +1 to AC isnt great, but unless its a ray or touch attack or the like, there's no -1 to attack to take. Plus, the buckler will not stay un-enchanted forever... If it's really not that good, I'll probably drop it. I was thinking of Shield Specialization and Shield Ward though...

Yes, I was going to have an Elvencraft bow from races of the Wild... Its always good to have, just in case...

The finessable two handed weapons might not be bad (im looking at you elven Courtblade!) but Im notsure yet if I want to burn a feat on it. I'll think on it. :smallwink:

[Greenish]

I am allowed a mithral buckler. If i take the I. Buckler Defense i can retain my shield AC while casting spells. +1 to AC isnt great, but unless its a ray or touch attack or the like, there's no -1 to attack to take. Plus, the buckler will not stay un-enchanted forever... If it's really not that good, I'll probably drop it.Well, the penalty to hit still applies when attacking with melee or ranged, which I understood you wished to do. (And I'm not sure Imp. Buckler Defense allows you to cast with that hand, it only says you still retain it's AC when using that hand to attack.)

The finessable two handed weapons might not be bad (im looking at you elven Courtblade!) but Im notsure yet if I want to burn a feat on it. I'll think on it. :smallwink:You could ask your DM to swap your racial proficiencies to Imp. Weapon Familiarity, or just EWP: Elven Courtblade. They're not doing anything for you as is, and the courtblade isn't that amazing. It stands for a reason that if elves train even all the non-combatants to use bows and swords, they'd put some extra effort on their dedicated fighter.

For ranged damage, you could ask your DM to homebrew Power Shot (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) as a feat, port over PF's Deadly Aim (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#deadly-aim) or just try to buy the bow linked. That'd allow you to (indirectly) transfer you Dex to damage.

Rangers got two of the big knowledges (Dungeoneering & Nature), and Knowledge Devotion (CChamp) would add a third one, as well as increasing your damage and to-hit for both ranged and melee. (I don't remember the Shooting Star sub-levels, but they might have an extra knowledge too.)

Yeah, lots of "ask stuff from your DM". :smallfrown: 3.5's archery isn't hugely well supported, and trying to get the resources for both melee and ranged combat is a bit tricky.

[Cieyrin]

And I'm not sure Imp. Buckler Defense allows you to cast with that hand, it only says you still retain it's AC when using that hand to attack.

You don't need the feat to cast with a buckler, as bucklers and light shields don't block up that hand from casting, since they're strapped to your arm. I assume such is so, given there are rules for carrying items, meaning your hand should be free for casting purposes.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"Well, the penalty to hit still applies when attacking with melee or ranged, which I understood you wished to do. (And I'm not sure Imp. Buckler Defense allows you to cast with that hand, it only says you still retain it's AC when using that hand to attack.)"

It would only apply to attacks made with my off hand. Yes, this would include my bow (being 2 handed) and any spell that uses an attack roll.

Theres been some debate on whether or not bucklers allows the casting of spells... technically, your hand is free for somatic components (as that the D&D buckler is strapped to the forearm). Improved Buckler defense would be there to retain the AC while doing so. The DM said it was okay, but if there is official ruling elsewhere that counters this argument, please let me know.

"just try to buy the bow linked. That'd allow you to (indirectly) transfer you Dex to damage."

I don't know what this means... Linked?

"(I don't remember the Shooting Star sub-levels, but they might have an extra knowledge too.)"

Shooting Star sub levels get Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana as class skills. Knowledge Devotion might be worth it, especially if it does give me an extra knowledge as a class skill... I only ever used it with a Duskblade, which got all the knowledge skills anyway...

"You could ask your DM to swap your racial proficiencies to Imp. Weapon Familiarity, or just EWP: Elven Courtblade."

Yeah, that didn't fly... He's granted some good things already, like Shooting Star levels, Sword of the Arcane Order, using bucklers while casting.... I'm by far the most experienced player, and he is well aware of that. He says I don't need more help. Apparently lifting a Tier 4 class up out of the muck to low Tier 3 with a feat and substitution levels makes me equal to a poorly built Wizard or Cleric. Or Sorcerer and Favored Soul. Like my party members. bleh.

Anyway, got any more suggestions for feats? still got to fill em up, and Im not sure what to take...

[Cieyrin]

"just try to buy the bow linked. That'd allow you to (indirectly) transfer you Dex to damage."

I don't know what this means... Linked?

The hyperlink Greenish posted for Powershot was to a weapon, the Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

oh, I see. I just read Power Shot, and kind of figured out what it did. Power Attack for bows. I just figured it was just another home brewed thing. Thats a fairly sexy bow, minus the shedding light as a torch.... hm...

I doubt the DM will allow homebrew. I am familiar with Pathfinder, but he is not, and I doubt that will go anywhere. However, I might be able to buy this bow at some point...

[Greenish]

Shooting Star sub levels get Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana as class skills. Knowledge Devotion might be worth it, especially if it does give me an extra knowledge as a class skill...Indeed, Knowledge Devotion gives you a knowledge skill of your own choosing as a permanent class skill. You'd have quite a good cover what with the sublevels bumping up your skill cap for Know: Arcana, ranger getting dungeoneering and nature, and KD giving you a fourth. Know: Local would give you humanoids, such as drow. Religion is for undead, planes for outsiders and elementals. Pick the one you're most likely to encounter and you get nifty bonuses for both attack modes.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

"Indeed, Knowledge Devotion gives you a knowledge skill of your own choosing as a permanent class skill."

Yes... I recall using it with a Duskblade NPC. He haunted my players for awhile as a result. Anything they could summon was easily cut down with a combination of Knowledge checks, power attack, and channeled Vampiric Touches through a bloodstone weapon... Needless to say, they were afraid of getting into melee range with him. Knowledge Devotion + Power Attack makes it so easily to turn a decent +4 bonus to hit into +8 damage.

I just hadnt thought of using it with a Ranger, considering how similar the Favored Enemy bonuses are in end result, i.e. damage. Something to ponder...