[3.5] Spirit Shaman, what tier?

[Vortling]

I was looking over the spirit shaman (complete divine) and it looks like a solid tier 2 to me. Is there anything about its spell list or unusual casting capabilities that would bump it up or down a tier?

[Glimbur]

The druid list is pretty nice, 4+ skills is ok, nontrivial class features... my only qualm about it is that you only get 3 spells retrieved max per spell level. Consider investing in upping that. That said, it's probably still Tier 2.

[BladeofOblivion]

For a typical analogy, Wizard:Sorcerer::Druid:Spirit Shaman. Thus, Tier 2.

[Lans]

Its really on the low end of Tier 1, it can swap out its spells every day which keeps it above the sorcerer favored soul level. Has a couple of interesting tricks, but nothing to spectacular.

[FMArthur]

Eh... the Druid spell list isn't nearly as awesome as the Wizard's, or even the Cleric's without domains. It does have a few of the big awesome ones that the others get but not many - not enough to call oneself as versatile as a tier 1 when you don't have Wildshape or an animal companion. IMO Spirit Shaman is just a tier 2.

Don't forget that it is multiple-ability-dependent like the Favored Soul.

[Leon]

Doesnt need to be alocated a tier, none of it does. Play what you think is good not what a bunch of other people have decided to categorise classes as.

[Ceaon]

The OP never said he wanted to play a Spirit Shaman, he just wants to know what tier it is.


Play what you think is good not what a bunch of other people have decided to categorise classes as.

I'd add that you should also let other people tier classes if they think it is fun and/or useful.

[Lans]

Eh... the Druid spell list isn't nearly as awesome as the Wizard's, or even the Cleric's without domains. It does have a few of the big awesome ones that the others get but not many - not enough to call oneself as versatile as a tier 1 when you don't have Wildshape or an animal companion. IMO Spirit Shaman is just a tier 2.

Don't forget that it is multiple-ability-dependent like the Favored Soul.

Druid is tier 1 on its spellcasting abilities, so spirit shaman should still be on that level. Mad casting hurts though

[Amphetryon]

Druid is tier 1 on its spellcasting abilities, so spirit shaman should still be on that level. Mad casting hurts though

Druid is Tier 1 on its casting combined with wild shape and animal companion. Druid is also a prepared caster, while Spirit Shaman is a spontaneous caster, with the delayed access smaller number of 'retrieved spells' available that WotC thought this required, with no animal companion, and no wild shape for combat options. It's a solid Tier 2.

EDIT: Korrecshun.

[Heliomance]

Personally, I don't really think the Druid spell list is all that. I was probably Doing It Wrong, but having played a Spirit Shaman I found that I frequently wasn't being all that effective in combat.

[Zaydos]

Druid has casting, wild shape, and animal companion.
Spirit Shaman just has casting (and delayed at that).
The druid list is excellent... combined with an animal companion or wild shape.
Without them it is still good, and the re-arrangeable spontaneous casting should actually be better than prepared casting, but I'd hazard that Spirit Shaman is only a Tier 2. They just lack the defensive "Nos" of wizards (Celerity, Fly, Teleport), or combat prowess of a druid (Animal Companion + Wild Shape).

Then again I think I've heard that Shapeshift variant Druid from PHBII is still Tier 1 so I might be wrong.

[JeminiZero]

while Spirit Shaman is a spontaneous caster, with the delayed access that WotC thought this required, with no animal companion, and no wild shape for combat options.


Spirit Shaman just has casting (and delayed at that).

Unless there is some errata I am unaware of, you might want to check CDiv. Spirit Shamans DO NOT have delayed casting, like the Druid, they gain access to a new spell level every odd level.

Their Dual-casting stat IS painful since quite a few good druid spells have save DCs, which is why you should take Dynamic Priest. Its like the same feat tax that Druids have to take Natural Spell.


The druid list is excellent... combined with an animal companion or wild shape.
Without them it is still good, and the re-arrangeable spontaneous casting should actually be better than prepared casting

Re-arrangeable spontaneous casting is stronger, since they qualify for tricks that normally only Sorcerers can access. Namely Versatile Spellcaster and Practical Metamagic. With Dynamic priest + Versatile Spellcaster + Practical Metamagic, as well as Spirit Guide to concentrate on certain spells (e.g. Tsunami, Elemental Monolith) they become even stronger casters than Druids.

Whether this is enough to compensate for the loss of Wildshape and Animal Companion however is another matter.

[JoshuaZ]

Doesnt need to be alocated a tier, none of it does. Play what you think is good not what a bunch of other people have decided to categorise classes as.

And no one needs to play D&D either.

People find discussing the Tier issues interesting. And understanding them can help balance parties and campaigns. If you don't like hearing about it you can not read threads that have the word "tier" in the title.

[Zaydos]

Unless there is some errata I am unaware of, you might want to check CDiv. Spirit Shamans DO NOT have delayed casting, like the Druid, they gain access to a new spell level every odd level.

Their Dual-casting stat IS painful since quite a few good druid spells have save DCs, which is why you should take Dynamic Priest. Its like the same feat tax that Druids have to take Natural Spell.


What book is Dynamic Priest from, it sounds interesting.

[JeminiZero]

What book is Dynamic Priest from, it sounds interesting.

Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins.

[Amphetryon]

The amount of op-fu required to make spontaneous casters better than prepared casters is atypical if we can use a sampling of internet responses to build a statistical base, and still comprises essentially 'niche' cases. Druid is still stronger as a rule. As with all rules, exceptions do exist.

[Fax Celestis]

Personally, I don't really think the Druid spell list is all that. I was probably Doing It Wrong, but having played a Spirit Shaman I found that I frequently wasn't being all that effective in combat.

The druid spell list is very diverse and powerful, if you know what you're doing. It is much more blast/buff/terrain-alteration centric than your typical SoS/SoL/Scry-n-Die batwizard, so if you approach it as if you wanted to Tippy it up, it's going to be a disappointment.

[Gametime]

Druid is tier 1 on casting alone, but it's probably the demonstrably weakest tier 1 at that point. Even slightly weaker casting - and Spirit Shaman does have slightly weaker casting - justifies dropping it to tier 2, in my mind.

It's still a pretty sweet tier 2, though. I love being able to maintain concentration on a spell without using actions, and the retrieval system manages a pretty enjoyable balance between the daily versatility of prepared casting and the pick-n-play speed of spontaneous casting.

[Leon]

And understanding them can help balance parties and campaigns. If you don't like hearing about it you can not read threads that have the word "tier" in the title.

Really.... Understanding that playing sensibly with your group does that too and allows you to play anything that your allowed.
Not if a X class is ranked in power at this tier means its better than Y at this one.
Seen plenty of threads that disscuss it without a tag.

[JeminiZero]

The amount of op-fu required to make spontaneous casters better than prepared casters is atypical if we can use a sampling of internet responses to build a statistical base, and still comprises essentially 'niche' cases.

The problem with this statment is that Spirit Shaman have ALL the advantages of both Prepared and Spontaneous casters, with dual casting stat MAD being the only flaw, and one which can be compensated with a feat. And an additional feat (Versatile Spellcaster) makes them better casters than the Druids they are so often compared against. You can't conclude they are Tier 2 based on their spell system.


Druid is still stronger as a rule. As with all rules, exceptions do exist.

Even amongst the tier 1s, some are stronger than others. The question isn't whether a Spirit Shaman is stronger than a Druid. The question is whether Spirit Shaman are strong enough to be classed as Tier 1.

[Amphetryon]

It's obvious to me that we disagree, and you're unlikely to find further discussion to be useful in swaying your opinion. That's fine. I understand your argument; I personally find it to be based on specific feats while not considering tricks available to classes typically listed in Tier 1, and whether those tricks would pull them further ahead of Spirit Shaman or merely keep their distance. That's what I meant by 'niche' cases, and it appears to go against the stated assumption of the Tiers system - reiterated just today in another thread here at GitP by JaronK, who started the Tiers listing - that Tiers are based on similar levels of optimization across the board for all players at the table.

Happy gaming.

[Thinker]

Really.... Understanding that playing sensibly with your group does that too and allows you to play anything that your allowed.
Not if a X class is ranked in power at this tier means its better than Y at this one.
Seen plenty of threads that disscuss it without a tag.

The entire tier system helps to reveal problems with the dnd mechanics as-is. A useful tool like this can help a group to accidentally avoid problems that can arise with people unaware of how much better one class is versus another. No one is saying that you should restrict what your group plays with, but if you don't understand that a druid is flat out better than a fighter, you can have a lot of games end up being boring for a lot of people.

Are you also complaining that people talk about the tier system without stating it in the subject? That seems a bit ridiculous to me.

[Zaydos]

Honestly having played an Arcane Hierophant from level 12 to 20 I'll say I found myself relying on the Druid spells more than the Wizard ones. Then again I didn't use much BC and mostly limited myself to buffing my Familiar Companion to ridiculous levels and the occasional blast spell against bosses (the character mostly ended up being a DMPC, and I did modify my tactics [but not spells prepared] when he was a PC to more effective ones). Also Maximized Moonbolt takes out things that cannot be hit otherwise (20 Str damage, save for half, 2 targets; Lv 7 when maximized without reducers).

From my experience with a single classed druid, druid's biggest strength is its buffs, its ability to get 2 for one with buffs (Share Spells) and to do double melee (getting almost equivalent melee ability without AC as the optimized Swordsage in the party), and Spirit Shaman loses these. But there's a reason Druid is Tier 1, it is versatile. While that is the strategy I've used as a druid because it is easy, simple, and effective (flying super tigers = win) it is far from the only one able to dominate encounters of CR = to your character level or higher. Spirit Shamans keep that and shift focus slightly.

Without 3rd party books (Dragonlance is in a weird quasi-WotC quasi-3rd party category) the MAD casting might bring them down to Tier 2.

[Vortling]

Doesnt need to be alocated a tier, none of it does. Play what you think is good not what a bunch of other people have decided to categorise classes as.

To clarify on this, I'm asking as a DM. I personally find the tier system useful especially when I want to express to others what power level I'm proposing for a campaign I'm going to run. While gentlemen agreements are very useful for running 3.5 D&D games I find them even more useful when everyone is speaking with the same framework of assumptions. So far I've found the tier system to be a good framework for having that conversation.

Hence my question about the spirit shaman's tier.

[FMArthur]

Spirit Shamans have lots of useful spells but only a handful of the superpowerful broken ones. It is powerful - remember that the difference between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is not really the amount of power that the class can bring to bear, it's the number of ways you can do it with one character. Spirit Shamans can buff and do some battlefield control amazingly well, but it can't do everything, and doing everything is what being Tier 1 means.

[Leon]

Are you also complaining that people talk about the tier system without stating it in the subject? That seems a bit ridiculous to me.


That was to a post that said i shouldn't post in threads discussing the topic and i was pointing out that Ive seen plenty of threads with the topic inside (and often on a tangent) being discussed and that his idea isn't that great. It's annoyed me for quite a while but i sat on it till i came a across what i thought was a thread that was open enough to voice it.

Figures that I'd manage to rile the crowd up with it. Firecracker reactions.

[Thinker]

That was to a post that said i shouldn't post in threads discussing the topic and i was pointing out that Ive seen plenty of threads with the topic inside (and often on a tangent) being discussed and that his idea isn't that great. It's annoyed me for quite a while but i sat on it till i came a across what i thought was a thread that was open enough to voice it.

Figures that I'd manage to rile the crowd up with it. Firecracker reactions.

If people discussing class tiers does annoy you, you should probably avoid it because the discussion isn't likely to go away. Feel free to complain, post, or discuss anything you want; don't censor yourself for my benefit. I suppose I mistook your complaint a bit.