[3.5] Rainbow servant + beguiler + initiate of mystra: so... how does this work?

[fortesama]

so i've finally went through with my plan and tried a beguiler/rainbow servant. it's all fine and dandy and i've been a good boy with all those spells so no problems. i've hit a couple of snags here and there such as what's my turning level for the air domain or if it can be used to fuel DMM but everything was settled after a while. then i picked up initiate of mystra for a nice boost in spells known... then I hit this new problem:

Anyspell and Greater Anyspell. My list simply says i can prep a sor/wiz spell. simple enough. then i took a look at the actual spell and says i prep them in a domain slot

... what domain slot? does this mean i learned a couple of useless spells?

[DanReiv]

It's in the same book Comp.Div. Extra domains in chapter 2.

And beguiler cast spells like a sorcerer, except they have a fixed list. You have to add them to your spell list through Advanced learning. (edit : which you can't since they are transmutation domains spell only, and you would need to burn a scroll each time)

If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely.

By RAW, you're screwed, I'd work a way with the DM to add them on the beguiler spell list.

The fact that you'll need a scroll of it each time you want to cast it is a serious limitation anyway, there's no real reason for your DM not to be kind on this one.

In the end it's true for all extra domain, since a beguiler can't add the spell to its spell list, and hence can't use them. Maybe a few exceptions with advanced learning, but illusion enchant sorc/wiz spells doesn't leave much I bet and if you can add it normally, then you don't need the extra domain.

[Caphi]

^ Did not get the topic.

I would say that one of your spell slots - specifically, the one used to cast anyspell - gets prepared with an arcane spell, in much the same way that a sorceror (or beguiler for that matter) can prepare spells he knows using Arcane Preparation.

[Douglas]

RAW, yes they're useless. RAI, it seems clear to me that the intent is the spell gets prepared in the slot you cast (Greater) Anyspell from. It was worded to use the domain slot because Anyspell is normally a domain-only spell so the domain slot and the slot it was cast from would always be the same. Too bad the writer didn't consider that there might be ways to take a domain spell and make it a non-domain spell, but that's what DMs are for.

[fortesama]

It's in the same book Comp.Div. Extra domains in chapter 2.

And beguiler cast spells like a sorcerer, except they have a fixed list. You have to add them to your spell list through Advanced learning. (edit : which you can't since they are transmutation domains spell only, and you would need to burn a scroll each time)

If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely.

By RAW, you're screwed, I'd work a way with the DM to add them on the beguiler spell list.

The fact that you'll need a scroll of it each time you want to cast it is a serious limitation anyway, there's no real reason for your DM not to be kind on this one.

In the end it's true for all extra domain, since a beguiler can't add the spell to its spell list, and hence can't use them. Maybe a few exceptions with advanced learning, but illusion enchant sorc/wiz spells doesn't leave much I bet and if you can add it normally, then you don't need the extra domain.

had i picked the spells up through some form of extra domain, that would be the case. thing is i picked it up by the aforementioned method. kinda why i'm still thinking of some way of getting the domain spells given by the rainbow servant itself. either way, having a chance to use my stuff in an AMF or dead magic zone is fun

[KellKheraptis]

Holt Warden gets a domain slot at each level even if you didn't have one to begin with. Also, Beguilers use the same mechanic as Warmages, meaning you add the entire Cleric spell list to yours. Not cherry pick with advanced learning, all of it. This is why Rainbow Warsnakes are so common now.

[fortesama]

does that extend to domain spells to?

edit: also, i checked out the holt warden. what part of it gives domain slots?

[KellKheraptis]

does that extend to domain spells to?

edit: also, i checked out the holt warden. what part of it gives domain slots?

I'll have to look myself, as it's going from memory, but IIRC that's the PrC that spells it out on the domain slot issue. Lemme see if I can find the relevant thread.

EDIT : Even better. Complete Divine, page 20. For a spontaneous caster, they are added to spells known and cast normally from your slots. No 1/day crap, either.

[Greenish]

EDIT : Even better. Complete Divine, page 20. For a spontaneous caster, they are added to spells known and cast normally from your slots. No 1/day crap, either.They aren't added straight to spells known for spontaneous casters. The text was quoted above, and the annoying part is the "If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell."

Beguilers & Co. get to add new spells to their spells known only when they get Advanced Learning.

[Rad]

I still don't get how you got anyspell to begin with. The rainbow servant capstone ability should give you only the general cleric spells, not the domain specific ones (like Holy Smite and,... anyspell).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anyspell among others is granted by the feat Initiate of Mystra in PGtF. You should note that it has "Cleric level 3rd" as a prerequisite, so you cannot take Initiate of Mystra without at least three levels in the Cleric class. The most obvious route from there would be to keep taking Cleric, which will give you high enough level domain spell slots to use Anyspell and the Greater version.

The most recent printing of Anyspell and the Greater version appear in the Spell Compendium. Like the older printings, they specifically say that they allow you to prepare an arcane spell from a magical writing which occupies your domain spell slot of a particular level. If you do not have domain spell slots in which to prepare something via Anyspell, then you gain no benefit from casting that spell. They were extremely specific in establishing that it must be prepared in a domain spell slot, intentionally preventing non-Clerics from using it.

[KellKheraptis]

They aren't added straight to spells known for spontaneous casters. The text was quoted above, and the annoying part is the "If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell."

Beguilers & Co. get to add new spells to their spells known only when they get Advanced Learning.

Beguilers/Warmages/Dread Necros =/= Sorcerer learning mechanic! EVER. When you expand a list with these guys, it's straight added, because they know all spells of all levels from level one.


I still don't get how you got anyspell to begin with. The rainbow servant capstone ability should give you only the general cleric spells, not the domain specific ones (like Holy Smite and,... anyspell).

Evidently took something with the Spell domain, or Initiate of Mystra, which leads me to...


Anyspell among others is granted by the feat Initiate of Mystra in PGtF. You should note that it has "Cleric level 3rd" as a prerequisite, so you cannot take Initiate of Mystra without at least three levels in the Cleric class. The most obvious route from there would be to keep taking Cleric, which will give you high enough level domain spell slots to use Anyspell and the Greater version.

The most recent printing of Anyspell and the Greater version appear in the Spell Compendium. Like the older printings, they specifically say that they allow you to prepare an arcane spell from a magical writing which occupies your domain spell slot of a particular level. If you do not have domain spell slots in which to prepare something via Anyspell, then you gain no benefit from casting that spell. They were extremely specific in establishing that it must be prepared in a domain spell slot, intentionally preventing non-Clerics from using it.

Either Complete Divine or Complete Champion spells out taking Initiate feats if you share a spell list. It even calls out Favored Souls being eligible for them. Initiate of Mystra is just as legal on a Guilesnake or Warsnake as it is on a Favored Soul once they get the capstone.

[Greenish]

Beguilers/Warmages/Dread Necros =/= Sorcerer learning mechanic! EVER. When you expand a list with these guys, it's straight added, because they know all spells of all levels from level one.Yeah, and the text specifically says that spontaneous casters get to add domain spells as spells known when they get the option of adding a new spell known.

And beguilers/warmages/dread nectromancers only get the option to add new spells to their list with Advanced (or Eclectic) Learning, by RAW.

[Edit]: C. Divine (surprise surprise) doesn't say anything about beguiler-like spontaneous casters. It wouldn't hurt to houserule it, but by RAW they don't gain domain spells as spells known just by gaining the domain.

[fortesama]

Either Complete Divine or Complete Champion spells out taking Initiate feats if you share a spell list. It even calls out Favored Souls being eligible for them. Initiate of Mystra is just as legal on a Guilesnake or Warsnake as it is on a Favored Soul once they get the capstone.

It'd Dragon Magic actually. Page 15. I investigated this when i saw someone try to put a Sword of the Arcane Order on a rainbow warsnake with prestige paladin 1. turned out illegal actually.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For the issue of gaining additional spells known, gaining a domain automatically adds its spells to your class spell list. You are immediately able to use wands and scrolls of those spells, and you are immediately able to acquire them as spells known. Beguilers, Warmages, and Dread Necromancers automatically know every spell of a given level on their class spell list from the moment they're able to cast spells of that level via that class. Therefore, characters of those classes who gain a domain will automatically gain that domain's spells as spells known along with the rest of their list at every level they're able to cast.

The Rainbow Servant's access to Cleric spells is a bit different from this, however. "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has... This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day. The 10th-level rainbow servant can likewise read scrolls with cleric spells on them and use wands and staffs that contain cleric spells." That you can use wands, staffs, and scrolls of those spells would imply that they're added to your class spell list, but the first sentence contradicts that. It says you're capable of learning and casting those spells, despite them not appearing on your class spell list. The most elegant solution would be to just treat them as though they were added to your class spell list, which would grant them to a B/WM/DN as spells known. However, due to the wording it looks like they don't intend for the spells to be added to your class list, but it gives specific situations in which you can treat them as though they were. If you're going with the elegant solution and adding them as spells known to those classes it gives those classes a significant power boost. If you're going by a strict RAW interpretation it does not add them to your class list and a B/WM/DN character would only be able to learn those spells via Advanced Learning.


Note that any way you rule any of that, (Greater) Anyspell will still not work for a character with no domain spell slots.

[Analytica]

Actually, concerning the Rainbow Servant capstone it was explicitly pointed out in the FAQ (close to the end of 3.5s run) that a warmage/rainbow servant 10, at least, could cast all cleric spells spontaneously. By extension this should apply to beguiler. I know some claim that the FAQ is not trustworthy, but it was an official WotC source, so I would go with it.

[fortesama]

the question wasn't about whether or not i could spontaneously cast the entire cleric spell list. it's a tad too late for that and my mildly insane DMs let me do that since we don't have a divine spellcaster in the group. rather it's about whether the anyspell spells given by initiate of mystra is worthless or not. From the looks of things, it looks like i'm screwed as far as RAW goes. RAI apparently suggests that i could use it with regular slots if I learned those spells through initiate of mystra though our group is divided on that issue.

Any ideas on how i could sneak in domain spell slots though just in case they go for the RAW interpretation, preferably without losing a caster level?

if it's cheesy and wrong on so many levels, just assume i have Epic Dodge for flying DMGs.

[Douglas]

Holt Warden from Complete Champion is a full casting PrC and gives you domain slots at level 1. It's specific to divine casting classes, though, so you'd have to talk your DM into ruling that Beguiler counts as a divine casting class once you have the Rainbow Servant capstone. It's not that much of a stretch given that a large portion of the spells Rainbow Servant grants you (all the ones not available to sor/wiz or bard) count as divine when you cast them, so you can cast a large number of divine spells with your Beguiler slots purely through class features.

[fortesama]

Holt Warden from Complete Champion is a full casting PrC and gives you domain slots at level 1. It's specific to divine casting classes, though, so you'd have to talk your DM into ruling that Beguiler counts as a divine casting class once you have the Rainbow Servant capstone. It's not that much of a stretch given that a large portion of the spells Rainbow Servant grants you (all the ones not available to sor/wiz or bard) count as divine when you cast them, so you can cast a large number of divine spells with your Beguiler slots purely through class features.

Hmmm... checked it again and it's rather indirect in it's statement, but it looks like it's plant affinity ability does give domain slots. Kinda difficult to justify a beguiler/rainbow servant/holt warden though.