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Morithias
2010-09-14, 04:30 AM
In order to get an idea about what the hell I am talking about I suggest you google "Tubba Blubba" from the first paper mario game for a point of reference.

How as a player would you feel if a DM pulled that one on you? An enemy that it's literally impossible to take head on through what is effectively rule 0. Vorpal? Doesn't work. Finger of Death? Nothing. Wish? Immune. Pun-pun? Still doesn't win.

My question is, Tubba Blubba was probably my favorite Paper Mario chapter, and I think is proof someone on that team was really thinking outside the box. Do you think creating such an opponent would count as "rail roading"? Sure in console games you don't really have all the options in tabletop to go off road in the first place, but I can see why many would complain given what we're used to.

How as a player would you feel if the Dm threw "The invincible Sebba Lubba" at you?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-09-14, 04:42 AM
Gods no! I hate those kinds of bosses, and would probably throw dice at my DM for putting such a creature in the game. It's definitely railroading, especially since the only purpose for that particular plot device is to capture the main characters and put them where you want them. The very fact that it is a plot-device, as opposed to a plot-hook, should make the fact that it's railroading rather obvious. I'd probably go from throwing dice, to throwing books if he proceeded to make the encounter inescapable as well.

Edit: It's kinda in the opposite direction, but as a DM I once gave a powerful, evil, npc more than a few holy weapons to reduce his power. I did it so that after the players nearly defeated him he could simply shed one of them either during, or just prior to his escape. Kind of an "I'm so powerful, that I must handicap myself to try and find worthy foes," deal.

Runestar
2010-09-14, 04:42 AM
Actually, as a DM, I have long toyed with the idea of a seemingly unbeatable foe with a sole Achilles heel. For example, in the Stormriders comic, there is this villian called Jue Wushen (Lord Godless) whose signature skill, indestructible golden body, renders him pretty much impervious to attacks. However, he has a weak spot (his armpits) and once this area is hit, his golden body is negated and can never be used again.

However, as he actually reserves ~50% of his ki to maintain this, it means that while he can now be injured, he is actually faster and his blows, far more deadly.

Never figured out how to implement it properly ingame though. I thought of having this "indestructibility" as a very huge pool of temp hp, but it seemed kinda...weak.:smallconfused:

akma
2010-09-14, 04:44 AM
If the enemy is arbitarly invincible, then I would be bothered.
But if it makes a lot of sense (for exemple, it`s a god), I wouldn`t be bothered, as long as the DM didn`t put us togather in battle.
My suggestion is that you make the characters deal with the effects of the actions of the villain, instead of facing the villain in a battle.

In a diffrent forum on the same topic, someone told a story about a weak invincible villain - the villain was in a political position, and if he would be assasined everyone would know the party did it, but physically he didn`t pose much of a threat.



Never figured out how to implement it properly ingame though. I thought of having this "indestructibility" as a very huge pool of temp hp, but it seemed kinda...weak.:smallconfused:

Immunity to damage.

Mastikator
2010-09-14, 04:55 AM
It's okay if you have a fair chance of defeating him by beating him physically 'till his hp is reduced to -10.
But if that doesn't work then what's the point, I'd throw down my weapon in protest against a meaningless game and not come back the next time.

jumpet
2010-09-14, 04:57 AM
It depends on how you are using it. I think its reasonable for the PCs to come across foes that they are no match for, just as long as the DM gives them every chance to realize they don't stand a chance and take appropriate actions.

On the other hand springing these sorts of villains as a surprise in a hot blooded attempt to retaliate against smarty pants PCs, that is another issue.

It also reminds me of a saying that goes something like. "Give it stats and PCs can kill it."

Alleran
2010-09-14, 04:59 AM
I have been known to sort of do this in the past. A couple of examples that I can think of:

1) The party had found their way to Sigil. In one of the shops, they encountered a wizard that they knew to be an extremely evil demon summoner and necromancer from their home Crystal Sphere, and, thinking that they were doing the right thing, attacked him. Unfortunately, they had forgotten that he was an Epic-level wizard who had just relocated to Sigil, and was simply browsing the shelves. They were about level 9 at the time (I have a policy where you can go where you want and do what you want, but that doesn't stop background events from happening - basically, very sandbox, and this guy could have been a potential villain had they decided to follow that path, but they came across a portal to Sigil and decided that the material world was not for them). It was a massacre, and resulted in their being forced into several quests for him under a geas before he got bored with them and booted their asses to Baator. He wasn't invulnerable per se, but an Epic level caster should not be trifled with (and I don't play stupid wizards, either - mine know what they are doing, as they should for individuals with very high INT scores).

2) They got in the way of the Lady of Pain (not a villain, I know, but really, there's no way of stopping her if she decides to flay you) upon making their way back to Sigil. I facepalmed.

So yeah. Sort of invincible "villains", but it came about more through party stupidity than anything else. Luckily, in a FR game that we were later playing, they were smart enough to not go chasing after Larloch (all that magical loot) when they were approaching 20th level - that lich is, after all, considered to be a DM beatstick to get rid of players more than it is an actual boss to be fought (and the same goes for Ioulaum, that Undead Lich Elder Brain with 41 Wizard/Arcanist/Archmage levels and 20 Psion levels or whatever it is).

EDIT: Oh, and there was a time when the party (a different group) were playing as bandits, and making a name for themselves. A gold dragon in human form was passing through the area (which, according to Draconomicon, they are known to do - put themselves in harms way and act weak before revealing their true form, kicking ass and taking names), and they thought they should rob him. They forgot to cast True Seeing (and they had it in their spell lists, too...). A massacre ensued, albeit one aided by some not-very-good rolling on their part.

Zen Master
2010-09-14, 05:04 AM
It's very frustrating as a player when all your best efforts come to naught.

I've used semi-invincible bosses - that needed to be researched before the fight, or had shields that needed disabling somehow - and those have been more succesful, though it is rather tricky to pull off.

A better option is a boss that escapes from all encounters. This is also frustrating, but still gives a certain feeling of succes - you've droven the boss off, and foiled whatever he was working at. Maybe.

akma
2010-09-14, 05:12 AM
If there is a goal that the party can achieve without defeating the villain, then they could be satisfied achieving the goal and surviving the villain, without actully killing him (for exemple, distracting him while other party members free his captives).
But if it`s just a fight that the party only option to survive is to run away, the invincible villain would suck.

Morithias
2010-09-14, 05:20 AM
Ok perhaps I didn't fully explain what Tubba Blubba was in the game.

Here's basically what happens in his chapter

Part 1: Tubba appears, mario uses ghost to hide
Part 2: Mario goes to Tubba's mansion and sneaks around it eventually finding a key, said key yells resulting in a chase through the mansion.
Part 2a: If the player tries to fight Tubba now, no attacks do any damage.
Part 3: Mario uses key to unlock a windmill, inside he fights Tubba's heart (no literally his heart).
Part 4: After beating heart, heart runs away and reunits with Tubba
Part 5: Tubba is no longer invincible, Mario kicks his butt.

Basically where you have to make the person able to be damaged, before you can kill them. Not a villain that can never actually be beat, but more that you're going to have to do other stuff before you can just kill him with fire.

akma
2010-09-14, 05:24 AM
If the players will fully realise that the enemy is invincible in his initial stage and understand what they would have to do, then I guess it could work.
Also, try to make it more logical then what it was in mario (maybe you got to contact a god so he would remove the villain immortality or something)

kestrel404
2010-09-14, 05:28 AM
I just did this last weekend for a one-shot. I built the big-boss NPC around the feat Troll-blooded (which grants troll-like regeneration at a low rate), immunity to acid, fire and non-lethal damage. He literally became immune to damage. He also had 10 levels of the Bone Knight prc and the Voidmind template, which made him immune to just about everything else, then his castle was warded such that even the weird save-or-dies (like the teleportation based one, which one of the PCs had) were rendered useless.

I also surrounded him with a multi-layered, well thought out, incredibly efficient defense manned by a literal army of undead - he was the commander of a garrison on the border of Karrnath after all.

The thing is, I told them all in the e-mail advertising the one-shot that it would be a ridiculously tough fight (they were level 12, he was level 20 with full Undead Leadership), and to 'Optimize or Die'.

The PCs loved it. The game was a total hit. When they finally got to the big-bad, the Planar Druid had his 10x speed planar bubble up, while the rest of the party was ready to blast the bad guy. They wailed on him for 2 full rounds of combat before he got an action (he rolled a very impressive initiative). He then cast Mind Blank on their Frenzied Berserker who'd been wailing on him, and teleported (actually shadow-jaunted with the Swordsage maneuver that takes a move action) out of the room.

The result was great, and everyone thought it was the perfect d***-move for the bad guy. It was very nearly a TPK, as the Berserker was next on initiative. I gave him a will save to end his frenzy, but he failed (predictably) and since the only people in the room were the party members he went and killed half the party - hooray for Pounce. The Druid finally got to go and plane shifted away with the only other surviving party member.

We called it a draw.

There WERE ways to kill this guy, of course. Sundering his armor would have allowed the PCs to knock him unconscious and rendered him no longer immune to criticals (and therefore Vorpal weapons). The Psion started doing this after his massive blasting attacks utterly failed to have an effect. Searing spell (which the Ultimate Magus had, at my recommendation) bypassed his immunities AND did fire damage - of course, the fact that he was TAKING fire damage was what prompted the bad guy to flee instead of going toe-to-toe with the party. And if the party had managed to sunder his Voidmind tentacle (which came out whenever he cast cleric spells) he would no longer have been immune to acid or mind-affecting. So he wasn't actually COMPLETELY undefeatable, but he started out that way and it required lateral thinking for them to even touch him.

Nihb
2010-09-14, 05:48 AM
Well, the Tarrasque is somewhat invincible. Still beatable.

In the last campain we played, I had a boss fight that couldn't be resolved through damage only. The boss was a über balor that couldn't be killed. Whatever what you did, even wished for it, it wouln't die. Well, he could be trapped.

However, the dungeon he was in was a hidden temple, containing the knowledge to restrain it. Good thing they had a NPC with them because, otherwise, they wouldn't have known how to kill it. Ha well, not as if I was known for being subtile.

The balor was trapped in a grave of holy water, normally pouring from a Decanter of Holy Water, a custom magic item made a few centuries before by a band of heroes. During the last weeks, an earthquake had broken the stand and the bottle fell, stopping the fountain of holy water. The balor could be hurt, but not killed, so when the holy water turned into tainted, unholy water scoring over 9000 on the Detect Evil, he began healing. When the PCs decided to fight it, he had about 300 hp, was only moving bones with a beating heart of vile dark energy. He didn't have most of its powers, but had a fast-healing power, that also prevented it from being destroyed.

So, the party's Paladin charged and attacked, dealing for about 110 damage. Even though the NPC they had with them told him he couldn't be killed this way, the player still wanted to bring it to negatives. I guess, if a creature has HP, players will try to kill it.

The battle was somewhat interesting, and the psion got to grab the bottle of holy water and made it to work. Once the artefact was placed, they fled, closed the door behind and waited. The boss was defeated.

All my players felt great about this victory, minus the paladin's.

So, it all depends on your players. My group almost all has different views on the game. Some of your players will require that everything you do can be explained through rules. Some others will not care, as long as they can do something about the situation, even if it's running away.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-14, 05:53 AM
I take it nobody in this thread has played through the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion, otherwise someone would have mentioned Yaga Shura (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Yaga-Shura). He's a fire giant in command of an army besieging a city, and you find out he's completely invulnerable to all forms of attack. You have to flee, and eventually discover that his heart has been removed and is being kept ablaze with magical fire to make him invincible. You eventually get it extinguished and go back to the besieged city to kill him and force his army to disperse. I've played through that game at least once every two years since first beating it, its one of the best RPGs I've ever played and I would strongly recommend it.

As for fighting an opponent like that in a tabletop game, the characters would have to 1. discover extremely early on in the fight that he cannot be harmed, 2. be able to easily escape the initial encounter with him, and 3. discover how to put an end to his invulnerability without too many headaches. The knowledge of his invincibility and the knowledge of how to end it would have to be discovered in-character, preferably both easily and quickly, not something like a ha-ha-you-have-to-figure-it-out-out-of-character puzzle with only a few vague clues. Otherwise expect the PCs to just walk away and go seek adventure elsewhere, leaving that invincible boss for some other group of adventurers to defeat.

Morph Bark
2010-09-14, 05:54 AM
Thanks to this thread, I'm thinking of making a villain who is "invincible", using a ton of handicaps to keep him level with the party. Holy weapons, eyepatch on one eye, using weapons in his non-dominant hand, wearing heavy iron boots that weigh him down, use of inhibitating drugs, etc.

Wonder how that will turn out. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2010-09-14, 06:02 AM
If I intend to make a villain come back later, I just give them excessive contingency items to allow them to escape before they get killed.

I'm okay with making a villain overtly invicible only if there is a puzzle involved in killing him/her (like Yaga-Shura).

Snake-Aes
2010-09-14, 06:23 AM
Do you know what is an invincible villain in combat? A corporation.

"Congratulations, you have beheaded the owner of the slave trader's guild. Now sit tight while all other slavers don't give a damn, a new leader is elected in a safe distance from you and business go on as usual."

PersonMan
2010-09-14, 07:15 AM
Sundering his armor would have allowed the PCs to knock him unconscious and rendered him no longer immune to criticals (and therefore Vorpal weapons). The Psion started doing this after his massive blasting attacks utterly failed to have an effect. Searing spell (which the Ultimate Magus had, at my recommendation) bypassed his immunities AND did fire damage - of course, the fact that he was TAKING fire damage was what prompted the bad guy to flee instead of going toe-to-toe with the party. And if the party had managed to sunder his Voidmind tentacle (which came out whenever he cast cleric spells) he would no longer have been immune to acid or mind-affecting. So he wasn't actually COMPLETELY undefeatable, but he started out that way and it required lateral thinking for them to even touch him.

Unless you houseruled, that isn't lateral thinking. That's expecting them to break the rules. You can't sunder armor, and you can't sunder body parts, either.


You can't sunder armor worn by another character.
And it doesn't mention body parts.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-14, 08:23 AM
Unless you houseruled, that isn't lateral thinking. That's expecting them to break the rules. You can't sunder armor, and you can't sunder body parts, either.


And it doesn't mention body parts.

Maybe he was playing Warcraft d20? They have a feat to let you sunder armor.

Lysander
2010-09-14, 09:11 AM
Invincible is fine, as long as he's not unbeatable. The sealed evil in a can (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan) that cannot be destroyed directly, only imprisoned, thwarted, or defeated by destroying a MacGuffin is a classic fantasy trope. It's your job as DM to make it so the players know they can't kill the bad guy directly though. Imagine in Lord of the Rings that Elrond is an NPC. Your job is to make Elrond say "the ring must be thrown into the fire", not "go kill Sauron!"

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-14, 09:21 AM
Do you know what is an invincible villain in combat? A corporation.

"Congratulations, you have beheaded the owner of the slave trader's guild. Now sit tight while all other slavers don't give a damn, a new leader is elected in a safe distance from you and business go on as usual."
Even if it doesn't bleed (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060527.html), you can still kill it (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060528.html) :smallamused:

Cyrion
2010-09-14, 09:26 AM
I frequently use villians that are beyond a party's weight class when they are first encountered, thus making them invincible for all practical purposes. It's part of the plot that the characters must gain power and knowledge faster than the villain in order to beat him.

Like others have mentioned, this can be initially frustrating for the party (with the players I have, this usually translates to a "We don't know how, we don't know where, but we WILL kill him!)

The keys to success here:

1) In the first encounter(s), the villain has to have something pressing him to move on, swatting the party instead taking the time to exterminate.

2) Invulnerabilities must fade over time- either through player power growth or knowing how to counter them.

You can get really good rivalries and senses of triumph if you play them right.

Zanatos777
2010-09-14, 09:57 AM
I put an invincible villain once (to good effect). He was a monk enchanted by a powerful sorcerer (the BBEG) to be invincible so that he could find and touch a powerful artifact. When the party encountered him he acted in an extremely arrogant manner and provoked the PCs to fight him (in a bar fight). After easily besting their main fighters he walked away laughing. I played him for dark laughs at first as he flaunted his invincibility by doing incredibly stupid things such as groping an extremely powerful sorcereress.

Eventually he became a very real threat and the party got an antimagic field to cancel his invulnerability and kill him. They discovered his disregard for his own body actually bit him as the spell which kept him alive applied all the damage he had received while invincible once he wasn't. The character who killed him is now well known in the campaign world for killing an immortal.

They liked it.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-14, 10:00 AM
I frequently use villians that are beyond a party's weight class when they are first encountered, thus making them invincible for all practical purposes. It's part of the plot that the characters must gain power and knowledge faster than the villain in order to beat him.

Like others have mentioned, this can be initially frustrating for the party (with the players I have, this usually translates to a "We don't know how, we don't know where, but we WILL kill him!)

The keys to success here:

1) In the first encounter(s), the villain has to have something pressing him to move on, swatting the party instead taking the time to exterminate.

2) Invulnerabilities must fade over time- either through player power growth or knowing how to counter them.

You can get really good rivalries and senses of triumph if you play them right.
Fine advice, but I always worry about the Why Don't Ya Just Shoot Him (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlel164s0xw?from=Main.WhyDontYaJustShootHim) problem: even if the villain had something pressing to do the first time, surely he would want to personally take care of known thorns in his side before they bust into his throne room. Plus, establishing the personal connection of combat makes it less likely that the villain would ignore a particular group of adventurers - he knows their faces.

I mean, you can go the Xykon route, but I've always felt this framing is too problematic to use more than once in awhile.

IMHO, it's better to have the BBEG appear in an "invincible" position (e.g. politically protected, at a distance) either coordinating minions or gloating. This way he can be visibly present to the PCs (and possibly interact with them) while removing the implication that he is someone the PCs could fight.

As I've said before, I worry about presenting "false challenges" to Players - if it looks like the Players have a choice, their choice should influence the progression of the story. Presenting a BBEG in a combat situation implies that the PCs could fight and win; if the BBEG is invincible the Players will feel railroaded (i.e. a loss of autonomy) and be irritated that they wasted time fighting him at all.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-14, 10:48 AM
As I've said before, I worry about presenting "false challenges" to Players - if it looks like the Players have a choice, their choice should influence the progression of the story. Presenting a BBEG in a combat situation implies that the PCs could fight and win; if the BBEG is invincible the Players will feel railroaded (i.e. a loss of autonomy) and be irritated that they wasted time fighting him at all.

And I worry about being in a world where I know what comes to my characters exist solely to be defeated by them. My group actually likes to know that if they "do ****", "**** happens" to them. Preferences are a beautiful thing.

If a villain is just well above the group and they engage in direct combat, the reasons for the villain not to kill the characters must be well played. He could beat them and not care much to check the bodies. He could be fleeing a greater danger and just happened to overrun the party to get away (said greater danger could be an old mentor of the group, who later gets killed by said bigbad). Or he could capture them and use them for horrid experiments?

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-14, 10:53 AM
I played in a published campaign where the final villain was a vampire. We fought him a few times throughout the campaign but he always disappeared.

What was really lame was that, in the end, the only way for us to do anything to him was pull out the wooden stakes and roll a confirmed critical on a natural 20 (we were like, level 7 I think). Nobody could hit him at all except on a 20 (maybe a 19, I wasn't keeping track). The final combat turned into boredom as we surrounded him and swung away with stakes hoping for that double 20.....

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-14, 10:56 AM
And I worry about being in a world where I know what comes to my characters exist solely to be defeated by them. My group actually likes to know that if they "do ****", "**** happens" to them. Preferences are a beautiful thing.
I'm not saying you make it an easy fight - it can be plenty tough. But the villain should not be constructed to be unwinnable - and if the PCs die, so be it.

The way you've presented it, it sounds like "PCs either don't fight, or they lose and the villain lets them live." That's a waste of time IMHO: there is no reason to have the players be there at all, or to roll dice for combat. What I'm talking about is giving them a real choice; the PC can either fight and win, or lose and die. Or maybe they can decide to flee when the combat gets too hard and maybe the BBEG chases them down - or maybe he doesn't. The ultimate outcome of the encounter is unknown to all; the only way to find out is to roll the dice.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-14, 10:59 AM
One time I put my PC's against an "invincible" villain....or at least one incredibly higher than they should have been fighting. He was a recurring villain from 1-20...and ironically, somewhere around level 10 they *almost* killed him...

Snake-Aes
2010-09-14, 11:00 AM
I'm not saying you make it an easy fight - it can be plenty tough. But the villain should not be constructed to be unwinnable - and if the PCs die, so be it.

The way you've presented it, it sounds like "PCs either don't fight, or they lose and the villain lets them live." That's a waste of time IMHO: there is no reason to have the players be there at all, or to roll dice for combat. What I'm talking about is giving them a real choice; the PC can either fight and win, or lose and die. Or maybe they can decide to flee when the combat gets too hard and maybe the BBEG chases them down - or maybe he doesn't. The ultimate outcome of the encounter is unknown to all; the only way to find out is to roll the dice.

A truly invincible villain is more of an environmental hazard than an actual Villain. What you wrote sounded like exactly that: "The guy is bent towards being defeated" instead of earning their associated reputation.

Khatoblepas
2010-09-14, 11:05 AM
I've always wanted to run a Terminator style villain, who is nigh invunerable to the party's attacks but won't overrun them. Maybe an Alaex of a commoner...

"Are you Sarah Conner?"

And it's climatic because the players have to protect this low level commoner against what is basically a commoner, but invincible. Fancing it head on would be impossible, even though it doesn't have much in the way of HP or BAB. (I'm thinking it would stop by a magic shop and steal everything there so it can have an arsenal it can threaten the party with.) And of course, the commoner can't beat the Alaex because she's frightened to death and unwilling to fight the scary invincible thing (and her aim sucks). So you have to run.

By turning the villain into an obstacle rather than a thing you have to kill, invincible villains can be interesting.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-14, 11:11 AM
A truly invincible villain is more of an environmental hazard than an actual Villain. What you wrote sounded like exactly that: "The guy is bent towards being defeated" instead of earning their associated reputation.
No, quite the opposite.

Villains should either be:
- Opponents to be challenged
- Obstacles to be avoided

Portraying one as the other is confusing to Players. If you as a DM introduce someone as an obstacle to be avoided and then conspire to place him before the Players as an opponent to be challenged, then the Players will be rightfully upset that they have been tricked by the DM.

This is just a bit of wisdom I've learned from playing over time. Don't waste your Players' time by having then fight a combat they can't win - or one they can't lose.

Ruinix
2010-09-14, 11:33 AM
as DM i like to throw to the players a boss wich is almost inmune to everything the got in that moment forcing them to retreat and investigate the way of take him down.

as a player i know the same. if everything the all party has to deal with it is completely useless then i have to run and search the way, the weapon, what ever it kick the bad guy a**.

Caphi
2010-09-14, 11:41 AM
If the "win condition" is something other than defeating the enemy, then such an enemy could be fun. As a simple example, say he was blocking a passage - essentially a living indestructible wall that can punch you. You'd have to figure out how to move him, go around him, go over him, fool him into letting you through, etc. It would be a fun puzzle boss.

If he's invincible just because you don't want the players beating him, well, that's just lame.

Devils_Blind
2010-09-14, 11:44 AM
We had a DM pull one of these in an OWoD game. No matter how much damage they did, it was still standing. After 5 or 6 rounds it wiped the party. 4 YEARS later people still get upset if it's brought up, and to the best of my knowledge, that DM was never allowed to run games for that circle again. In other words, approach this idea with extreme caution, and be very open with your players about what you are doing.

Lysander
2010-09-14, 11:48 AM
What's also interested are invincible villains who aren't necessarily that powerful. Say, someone cursed with immortality but otherwise no stronger than a PC. Maybe even weaker.

They can't be injured, but can still be grappled/restrained/imprisoned. Would make for an interesting recurring villain.

Capt Spanner
2010-09-14, 11:55 AM
It would be great fun to try to get the PCs into a world wear killing the villain is actually the worse thing to do, so they have to dethrone him (or whatever) some other way.

Not invincible per se, but may as well be.

RebelRogue
2010-09-14, 11:57 AM
Ok perhaps I didn't fully explain what Tubba Blubba was in the game.

Here's basically what happens in his chapter

Part 1: Tubba appears, mario uses ghost to hide
Part 2: Mario goes to Tubba's mansion and sneaks around it eventually finding a key, said key yells resulting in a chase through the mansion.
Part 2a: If the player tries to fight Tubba now, no attacks do any damage.
Part 3: Mario uses key to unlock a windmill, inside he fights Tubba's heart (no literally his heart).
Part 4: After beating heart, heart runs away and reunits with Tubba
Part 5: Tubba is no longer invincible, Mario kicks his butt.
This actually reminds me of a villain from one of the Mystara Gazetteers (I've been looking through some of them for one of my PbP games recently). From GAZ 10, Xilochtli is a high priest from the city of Oenkmar. He also lacks a heart (he's undead and has a gaping wound in his chest from which his deity, Atzanteotl tore it out). The heart, now turned to stone is stored in a demiplane which is hard to access. He is impossible to destroy, unless you find his heart; in that case one may control him completely (and his stats are rather impressive too).

So, TSR has definitely pulled this trick before. Not sure about WotC.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-14, 12:03 PM
No, quite the opposite.

Villains should either be:
- Opponents to be challenged
- Obstacles to be avoided

Portraying one as the other is confusing to Players. If you as a DM introduce someone as an obstacle to be avoided and then conspire to place him before the Players as an opponent to be challenged, then the Players will be rightfully upset that they have been tricked by the DM.

This is just a bit of wisdom I've learned from playing over time. Don't waste your Players' time by having then fight a combat they can't win - or one they can't lose.

So Lumi Multi-headed (2 heads, Lernean) is immune to all damage and death causing effect (it says only Disintegrate, finger of death, and slay living kill if fail save). Lumi immune to Finger of death/Slay living.
The only way to kill is disintegrate due to a loop hole. Granted it is minimum ECL 6 though.

So you have hp from con/HD, but it only matters if you are disintegrated.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-14, 12:12 PM
So Lumi Multi-headed (2 heads, Lernean) is immune to all damage and death causing effect (it says only Disintegrate, finger of death, and slay living kill if fail save). Lumi immune to Finger of death/Slay living.
The only way to kill is disintegrate due to a loop hole. Granted it is minimum ECL 6 though.

So you have hp from con/HD, but it only matters if you are disintegrated.


:confused:

...ooooookay, that sounds like a poorly designed monster(?).

I'd say don't use it, because it dosn't make any sense. Or did I miss the point?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-14, 12:18 PM
:confused:

...ooooookay, that sounds like a poorly designed monster(?).

I'd say don't use it, because it dosn't make any sense. Or did I miss the point?

Well Lumi are LN outsiders that immune to death effects being made of positive energy (from positive energy plane) rather than partly like everything else. Their head floats a few inches from body (no neck) so vorpal immune.

Trouble is Savage Species template Multi-headed can make you you immune for an extra LA added (2 heads + immune unless heads cut off).

I say trouble as combinition makes a tank type PC a little too good.

It won't break your game, but can't really challenge him unless poorly built (can't fly innately).

TheAzrael
2010-09-14, 03:16 PM
As a player i realy dont like that tactic especialy when it breaks the rules i mean i could accept the he is 10 lvl higher than you so yea you could defeat him but you proly wont. On the other hand just saying you know he is so bad ass that anything you do fails feels so wrong. Talk to your players and ask them their opinion...because something looks cool to you and have thought of something amazing to happen after that doesnt mean that they will find it so and since the game its a group activity where everyone is sopossed to have fun if you want to pull something like that i would ask them if they would have a problem. I was playing once a 3rd edition campain and there was an encounter we were supposed to lose because the opponend was way stronger we where like6-7 he must have been 12. anyway to make a long story short we played smart had good rolls and the Dm cheeted did a 10feet step with full attack and killed the cleric that was keeping up the fighter. magic was useless aganst him becouse of high SR so the fighter dies wth lack of healing and the rest casters soon followed. I realy hated that day we should have won but it "wasnt the plot". to sum up talk to your players even if it mean giving hints so everyone is on board.

Forged Fury
2010-09-14, 03:33 PM
I remember one of the old 2nd Edition Kara-Tur adventures had shadow-like enemies that were only vulnerable if you cast a light spell on them. I think the only time we ever fought them was during the day and no one really thought to cast the spell on the enemies. The DM eventually just had them go away after the party was single-digit hit points away from TPK.

I didn't really like the experience. Yes, they were shadow-like monsters so one could guess that light might make them vulnerable, but it was specifically magical light and actions are so precious that it kind of sucks to have to play a guessing game. From what I recall, nothing in the module provided any hint as to their specific vulnerability. I also think this was the first time they were encountered.

Not a fan, although the 3.5 Knowledge rules could mitigate this problem.

The Big Dice
2010-09-14, 03:33 PM
This actually reminds me of a villain from one of the Mystara Gazetteers (I've been looking through some of them for one of my PbP games recently). From GAZ 10, Xilochtli is a high priest from the city of Oenkmar. He also lacks a heart (he's undead and has a gaping wound in his chest from which his deity, Atzanteotl tore it out). The heart, now turned to stone is stored in a demiplane which is hard to access. He is impossible to destroy, unless you find his heart; in that case one may control him completely (and his stats are rather impressive too).

So, TSR has definitely pulled this trick before. Not sure about WotC.

WotC did it. Or used it. Iuchiban from L5R went from being a necromancer so powerful he could posess anyone and had no real need of his original body anymore, into being something called a khadi. He'd removed his heart and kept it hidden away, very much like Davey Jones in the Pirates of the Carribean movies.

Naturally, the only way to kill him is to destroy the heart.

There's more stuff in the Legend of the burning Sands RPG, I believe.

Cespenar
2010-09-14, 03:45 PM
Meh. If you can mesh it well into the story, everything works. If you can't, nothing does.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-14, 04:56 PM
As a player i realy dont like that tactic especialy when it breaks the rules i mean i could accept the he is 10 lvl higher than you so yea you could defeat him but you proly wont. On the other hand just saying you know he is so bad ass that anything you do fails feels so wrong. Talk to your players and ask them their opinion...because something looks cool to you and have thought of something amazing to happen after that doesnt mean that they will find it so and since the game its a group activity where everyone is sopossed to have fun if you want to pull something like that i would ask them if they would have a problem. I was playing once a 3rd edition campain and there was an encounter we were supposed to lose because the opponend was way stronger we where like6-7 he must have been 12. anyway to make a long story short we played smart had good rolls and the Dm cheeted did a 10feet step with full attack and killed the cleric that was keeping up the fighter. magic was useless aganst him becouse of high SR so the fighter dies wth lack of healing and the rest casters soon followed. I realy hated that day we should have won but it "wasnt the plot". to sum up talk to your players even if it mean giving hints so everyone is on board.

You don't need to cheat just use Scar (Lumi Multi-headed 2 Lernean). Totally rules legit.
Killing him is requires rule lawyering (disintegrate worked due to 3.0 it was a save/die).

Dsurion
2010-09-17, 08:04 AM
What's also interested are invincible villains who aren't necessarily that powerful. Say, someone cursed with immortality but otherwise no stronger than a PC. Maybe even weaker.

They can't be injured, but can still be grappled/restrained/imprisoned. Would make for an interesting recurring villain.

Actually, that'd be pretty cool. Reminds me of Utnapishtim from the Gilgamesh flood story. Within your own game world, you could supply some kind of story similar to his, wherein the character didn't do anything inherently wrong, but somehow managed to earn the ire of a deity and is cursed with immortality.

After living under a curse that long, they'd simply become bitter jealous like the undead.