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RdMarquis
2010-09-14, 01:45 PM
Spells like Produce Flame require a Melee Touch attack to deal damage. If a character has Weapon Finesse, can Dexterity be used for the attack bonus, or is the modifier based on Strength?

RebelRogue
2010-09-14, 01:50 PM
Spells like Produce Flame require a Melee Touch attack to deal damage. If a character has Weapon Finesse, can Dexterity be used for the attack bonus, or is the modifier based on Strength?
I'm not sure it's 100% RAW-proof, but it applies to all natural weapons, so I'd say yes.

Telonius
2010-09-14, 02:00 PM
Touch Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks):

Touch Attacks

Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Says nothing about what modifies the attack roll there, just about what you add to your AC against touch attacks.

Just above that, in the main section onAttack Rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll):


Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

...

Attack Bonus
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier



And, for Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse):


Weapon Finesse [General]
Prerequisite
Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit
With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special
A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.

The "Attack Rolls" in Weapon Finesse aren't limited to regular melee attack rolls. It's a blanket statement to all attacks, so Dex applies to Touch Attacks as well.

Forged Fury
2010-09-14, 02:06 PM
Edit: Sorry, I realize I was derailing the thread with my comments below. In any event, Weapon Finesse should certainly apply to melee touch spells. I believe the rules were first confirmed in Complete Arcane.

Derailing Comment: I've always found it odd that you receive your STR modifier or penalty to melee touch attacks. I mean, does it really matter how hard you push against your target in order to discharge a touch spell? DEX seems to make much more sense, but I can see the potential game balance issues.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-14, 02:14 PM
Touch spells are weaponlike spells and as such you can apply weapon feats to them, like Focus or Improved Critical. Weapon finesse is specifically stated as valid for touch spells in the rules compendium.

RdMarquis
2010-09-14, 02:21 PM
Great. Thanks to all of you.

jpreem
2010-09-15, 11:42 AM
Weapon finesse should apply by raw (maybe some ambiguity there)
I also usually houserule that melee touch attack is "automatically finessed".
Just seems to make sense, that you just have to be quick to make that tap.

Shenanigans
2010-09-15, 01:05 PM
Derailing Comment: I've always found it odd that you receive your STR modifier or penalty to melee touch attacks. I mean, does it really matter how hard you push against your target in order to discharge a touch spell? DEX seems to make much more sense, but I can see the potential game balance issues.
I agree with you. As far as using Str to modify attack rolls with melee weapons, that always seems to have made sense to me; you're swinging around what is usually a fairly heavy item, so a better Str would allow you to control it better.

For touch attacks, though, I think it became a minor victim of rules consistency. While making touch attacks always use Dex (kind of a default Weapon Finesse) might seem advisable, then it would seem like light weapons and other Weapon Finesse weapons should get that too, vitiating the need for Weapon Finesse at all.

Greenish
2010-09-15, 01:26 PM
I agree with you. As far as using Str to modify attack rolls with melee weapons, that always seems to have made sense to me; you're swinging around what is usually a fairly heavy item, so a better Str would allow you to control it better.

For touch attacks, though, I think it became a minor victim of rules consistency. While making touch attacks always use Dex (kind of a default Weapon Finesse) might seem advisable, then it would seem like light weapons and other Weapon Finesse weapons should get that too, vitiating the need for Weapon Finesse at all.Not to mention that there are ways of turning your attacks with even the heaviest of melee weapon into touch attacks (such as Wraithstrike and Emerald Blade).

Eldariel
2010-09-15, 01:56 PM
I agree with you. As far as using Str to modify attack rolls with melee weapons, that always seems to have made sense to me; you're swinging around what is usually a fairly heavy item, so a better Str would allow you to control it better.

For touch attacks, though, I think it became a minor victim of rules consistency. While making touch attacks always use Dex (kind of a default Weapon Finesse) might seem advisable, then it would seem like light weapons and other Weapon Finesse weapons should get that too, vitiating the need for Weapon Finesse at all.

Removing Weapon Finesse doesn't break anything though; indeed, as by default Finessing characters are MAD, it's actually still more efficient to go Str-focus in melee. I've always granted Weapon Finesse as "a free feat" for everyone (alongside Point Blank Shot which just seems obvious; "short range shots hurt more and are more accurate" - oh really?) and it's never been a problem. Just takes some stupid feat tax away.

If you want it to really make sense tho, you need to modify hitting with both Str (your ability to break through armor, wield your weapon accurately and so on) and Dex (your ability to aim your attacks, control your weapon, etc.) and somehow emphasize Str against creatures' Armor/Natural Armor/Shield bonuses and Dex against their Dodge/Dexterity bonuses. But that's just a tad complex to be worth the effort it takes to model it properly. Hell, best would just be splitting AC into Touch AC and Armor AC and rolling Dex-attack against Touch first to see if you hit, and then Str-attack against Armor to see if you penetrate (with some feats granting Dex-based attack to find a gap instead). Or maybe good enough Touch Hit would grant bonus to Armor Hit as finding the gap.

Ruinix
2010-09-15, 02:41 PM
Touch spells are weaponlike spells and as such you can apply weapon feats to them, like Focus or Improved Critical. Weapon finesse is specifically stated as valid for touch spells in the rules compendium.

yup.

that's include weapon focus tocuh attack.

thompur
2010-09-15, 02:49 PM
Could sneak attack damage be applied to a touch attack or a ranged touch attack(within 30')? I thought It could, but I can't find a difinitive rule. It may have been a house rule in the last game in which I played.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-15, 02:53 PM
That is also part of the weaponlike spells (core, complete arcane, rules compendium. You can sneak attack with spells that do hit point damage. It is damage of the same type.

Greenish
2010-09-15, 02:53 PM
Could sneak attack damage be applied to a touch attack or a ranged touch attack(within 30')?Of course, why not?

RebelRogue
2010-09-15, 02:56 PM
Could sneak attack damage be applied to a touch attack or a ranged touch attack(within 30')? I thought It could, but I can't find a difinitive rule. It may have been a house rule in the last game in which I played.
In short: yes.

Edit: Damn ninjas.

Forged Fury
2010-09-15, 02:57 PM
Could sneak attack damage be applied to a touch attack or a ranged touch attack(within 30')? I thought It could, but I can't find a difinitive rule. It may have been a house rule in the last game in which I played.

I think Complete Arcane also first addressed this issue. As long the appropriate conditions are met to generate a sneak attack, you can do it with any attack that requires a d20 roll, including touch attack and ranged touch attack spells. Extra damage dice are of the type created by the spell. Volley spells only count extra damage dice once. I thought I remembered that spells that don't normally cause hit point damage deal negative energy damage, but I could be completly making that up. I probably am, since it doesn't seem to make sense.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-15, 03:30 PM
I thought I remembered that spells that don't normally cause hit point damage deal negative energy damage, but I could be completly making that up. I probably am, since it doesn't seem to make sense.
You're misremembering. For spells that normally cause ability damage, sneak attack damage is negative energy damage instead of more ability damage. But you can't apply sneak attack unless the spell causes some sort of damage in the first place.

cfalcon
2010-09-15, 06:43 PM
Touch attacks use your Strength bonus?

I had no idea lol

Shenanigans
2010-09-15, 06:58 PM
I think Complete Arcane also first addressed this issue. As long the appropriate conditions are met to generate a sneak attack, you can do it with any attack that requires a d20 roll, including touch attack and ranged touch attack spells. Extra damage dice are of the type created by the spell. Volley spells only count extra damage dice once. I thought I remembered that spells that don't normally cause hit point damage deal negative energy damage, but I could be completly making that up. I probably am, since it doesn't seem to make sense.
It's been a while since I've played a caster with sneak attack, but for volley spells like Scorching Ray, you get the sneak attack damage as long as one of them hits, correct?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-15, 07:18 PM
It's been a while since I've played a caster with sneak attack, but for volley spells like Scorching Ray, you get the sneak attack damage as long as one of them hits, correct?

Yes, but only to the first one. Subsequent attacks apply normal damage.

Thus, if I caught someone flat-footed, and had 4d6 sneak attack on my scorching rays, the first one that hit would do 8d6, the second and third would only do 4d6. Assuming target was vulnerable to precision-based damage or didn't have a half-dozen other ways to negate sneak attack.