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Albonor
2010-09-14, 11:39 PM
Hi,

My group tends to stay very close to core rules no matter what we play becase we simply do not want to study t play a game. Are we missing on some fun stuff? Certainy but we also can do with only a few books on the table and everyone knowing what we are talking about.

Since we started a Pathfinder campaign, I discovered that the Dragon Disciple was a much better core choice than in 3.5. Sure you miss out on the full half-dragon template by level 15 but you are a MUCH better caster and the class features make up for a slight lack of to-hit.

So I wanted to try the "good" old-fashioned Barb4/Sorc6/DD10

As stated, we will keep with the Srd and probably stay clear of the new udpate to start with.

I thought with 32 point buy:
Human Str 18 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 14

With level upgrades and DD bonuses I end at Str 26, Con 16 (makes up for the sorcerer levels) Int 14 and Cha 16, caster level 13, dragon based abilites of a 16th level sorc and a BAB of +14.

Not optimal but with +7 in NA, flight, resistances and immunities it does make for a decent gish. Then you turn into a Large Bronze dragon and you have +6 to str, NA, etc...

I am completely at a loss for the feats though. Also, I want a DD, NOT a gish (where I believe an EK with wizard levels would do much better.) Any suggestions?

Player3
2010-09-15, 04:48 AM
I'm assuming the "DD" in the last sentence stands for "Direct Damage" and not "Dragon Disciple"?

Either way, Multiattack (From the bestiary) is nice

However, for a staggering number of attacks combine Multiattack and Two-Weapon Fighting, get a weapon crafted for your dragon form to use and cast (Tenser's) Transformation after shifting to dragon form. I think Double Slice will allow the full Str bonus on all the natural attacks as well. This option does require 15 Dex, though.

An interesting tactical option would be taking Flyby Attack and Great Cleave.

Extend Spell is also nice to keep those buffs lasting longer.

Mark Hall
2010-09-15, 01:57 PM
I'm assuming the "DD" in the last sentence stands for "Direct Damage" and not "Dragon Disciple"?

I believe he means Dragon Disciple, as in "I want to make a Dragon Disciple character, not just a fighter/wizard, for which I am aware there are better methods."

To the OP, it depends on what level(s) you are starting at. If you're starting at level 1, then there's a somewhat different strategy than if you are starting at level 10.

If at level 1, I'd suggest Power Attack and Cleave... you're going to have enough strength to really take advantage of a two-handed weapon. While the two-weapon and multiattack seems good, you're usually going to get more distance out of 2d6 19/*2 than you will out of a bite attack.

Player3
2010-09-15, 06:14 PM
To the OP, it depends on what level(s) you are starting at. If you're starting at level 1, then there's a somewhat different strategy than if you are starting at level 10.

If at level 1, I'd suggest Power Attack and Cleave... you're going to have enough strength to really take advantage of a two-handed weapon. While the two-weapon and multiattack seems good, you're usually going to get more distance out of 2d6 19/*2 than you will out of a bite attack.

That would be the better low level option. I was working off the dragon form's multitude of natural attacks.

Mark Hall
2010-09-16, 10:47 AM
That would be the better low level option. I was working off the dragon form's multitude of natural attacks.

Yeah, but a Dragon Disciple doesn't have a great source of multiple attacks. Without casting spells, he's only in dragon form for 20 minutes a day, even adding in his bite/claw attacks, he's only adding another 8 rounds or so of claw/claw/bite (since claws only last for 3+Cha mod rounds, and bite only lasts as long as the claws do). if you want to use your dragon form for anything but fighting, that eats more time. Unless they're close together, you're looking at 3 fights... and less strategic use of your dragon form.

Paul H
2010-09-16, 07:57 PM
Hi

Paladin 4/Sorc 1/DD 10 xxx (Gold Dragon, since you're LG)

You can only do Form of the Dragon II 2/Day at 10th lvl Drag Disc, but they last 1 Min/CL. You also get Claw/Bite attacks 3+Cha mod/day, plus breath weapons (seperate from Form of Dragon).

Pal 4/Sorc 6/DD 10 has BAB +14, plus Smite Evil 2/Day (On ALL attacks vs opponent until one of you goes down. Lay on Hands, Channel Energy, Immunity to Disease, etc.

Later levels find a way to increase your CL (there's a Trait that adds +2 CL), and use scrolls of Dragon Form III, etc.

Useful Feats:

Eschew Mats (Sorceror Bonus)
Toughness (Bonus)
Pwr Attack
Cleave
Arcane Strike
Dodge (Now works against all opponents)
Lunge
Skill Focus Fly (Bonus)
Quicken Spell (Bonus)
Blind Fight (Bonus)

Bonus Feats are from the Draconic Bloodline.

Cheers
Paul H

ericgrau
2010-09-17, 12:08 AM
If you're a caster and a martial combatant but not a gish, then what are you?

I'd consider only 1 level of sorcerer and maybe some levels in another PrC like EK or something else. You could put off the "something else" until later if you're not sure what, especially if your campaign never gets that far. You might as well get only 1 level of sorcerer instead of throwing away 2 BAB on nothing.

I could see a self buffing melee with still spell and armor, a melee caster with defensive spells to cast at close range (check PF concentration rules first), or someone who switches effortlessly between melee and casting depending on the situation. Probably armorless and you simply don't melee against anything with a weapon, you blast it with spells and then you melee the soft weaponless things instead.

Mark Hall
2010-09-17, 02:19 PM
If you're a caster and a martial combatant but not a gish, then what are you?

I think what is meant is "I want to make a Dragon Disciple, not just the most effective gish possible." Mostly to forestall advice like "Just go Eldritch Knight".

ericgrau
2010-09-17, 02:33 PM
Ok, so he is a gish, just as long as it's done through dragon disciple?

Mongoose87
2010-09-17, 02:35 PM
What do you want to do more, cast sorcerer spells, or crush things?

PinkysBrain
2010-09-17, 02:37 PM
I'm assuming the "DD" in the last sentence stands for "Direct Damage" and not "Dragon Disciple"?

Either way, Multiattack (From the bestiary) is nice
Dragon Bite doesn't work like a normal natural attack, it's always at full bab with 1 1/2 strength, and a greatsword is always better than 2 claws. ... so no need for multiattack.

Albonor
2010-09-17, 08:22 PM
Ok, so Yes, I meant Dragon Disciple when I wrote DD. I should have known there was another expression with the same abreviation!

Obviously, this character is clearly a gish but yes, I want to try and make a good use of the Dragon Disciple PrC. Seemed a good advice.

Kudos on the pally build, I must admit that it does indeed make for a good solution. And with the bonus to ALL attacks from smite evil, I should be a better use of the multiattack feat when I turn level 10 or so.

Starting from level 1 indeed.

I mostly favored sorcerer levels to gain the class features as I kept going. The NA bonus is nothing to sneeze at and it's th best way to gain caster levels.

Thanks for the help, it should be fun to play!

Paul H
2010-09-19, 01:16 AM
Hi

Don't forget that one lvl of Sorceror allows youto use wands of Shield, so you can go 2H wpn in 'normal' form.

Arcane Armour (whatever it's called) ignores 10% ASF (Mithril Shirt)? Arcane Armour Mastery ignores 20%. (Mithril Breastplate)?

Thanks
Paul H
PS Playing a Half Orc Paladin/Sorc build in Pathfinder Society (Living Pathfinder Campaign).

Seffbasilisk
2010-09-19, 01:34 AM
Something to take into account. They changed Cleave from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

It sucks now.


Power Attack has more limitations as well.

Mongoose87
2010-09-19, 02:02 AM
Something to take into account. They changed Cleave from 3.5 to Pathfinder.

It sucks now.


Power Attack has more limitations as well.

Got that backwards. Cleave previously only allowed an attack if you killed the enemy. Now, you do not, making it an effective way to get an extra attack at low levels, and the changes to Great Cleave make it actually worthwhile.