Is a level 12 warlock really tier 4?

[gomipile]

At level 12, a warlock with scribe scroll can make and use a scroll of nearly any arcane spell, and of probably at least level 4 divine spells. By level 20, a warlock with very little optimization can make a scroll of any non-epic spell. This is without the aid of any other party member. And that is just with scrolls, not including what can be done with other item creation feats.

How, exactly, does this fit with the warlock being a tier 4 class? Given that XP is a river and all, that is.

[RMS Oceanic]

At best, he can only make one scroll a day, right? Great if you have three weeks and knowledge of the spells you need to succeed, but this isn't always the case. And his other class feature, while generally fun, are painfully limited. I'd happily let him have a few more blast shapes and stuff.

[0Megabyte]

Heh.

Well... this is rather indirect, but the topic reminds me of this. You might like it. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8270.0

Heh heh heh.

Seriously, though. The ability to use such items is something anyone with UMD can do.

But you know what? Spellcasters can do all of that. Plus cast a bunch of spells that don't cost money and experience points every day. And can cast those or others again the next day, at their leisure.

Hey, Warlocks can be useful. I like Warlocks. I'd love to play one sometime, and looks like fun. But it's not that strong, and the ability to utilize scrolls is no better than what a Truenamer has. That doesn't make Truenamer any less "Tier Truenamer".

Of course, unlike truenamers, Warlocks look like they can be a lot of fun. Much more fun than a Hexblade, and with more interesting and flavorful abilities than a Dragon Shaman. I say, "tier" is helpful, but the point is to have fun with it.

And Fell Flight is awesome fun. :smallbiggrin:

[gomipile]

Seriously, though. The ability to use such items is something anyone with UMD can do.

Ah, but can those "anyones" do that without access to a magic Wallmart or a caster with item creation feats? What other tier 4 or below single-classed character can make a divine item one day and an arcane item the next?

[Tukka]

By RAW, magic marts aren't that uncommon. Chances are, if you have the time and raw materials necessary to make the item in question, you have time and resources to find someone to buy it from.

It's a nice ability, but doesn't seem like it would be a game-changer in most settings.

[Morph Bark]

By RAW, magic marts aren't that uncommon.

RAW actually talks about how many magic marts there are? Strange. I must have missed that in the many times I went through the books. I.e.: RAW says nothing of the sort, but it is often assumed that magic items are readily available in the average DnD setting - and that there is one on every corner in one where magic is the prime drive of the economy.

[Tukka]

Well, I suppose RAW technically does not dictate plentiful magic marts ... it's just that the assumed/recommended baseline is that most-all magic items are quite readily available for cash.

[Koury]

RAW actually talks about how many magic marts there are? Strange. I must have missed that in the many times I went through the books.

DMG, Page 137.
Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population.
The gold piece limit (see Table 5–2) is an indicator of the
price of the most expensive item available in that community.
Nothing that costs more than a community’s gp limit is available
for purchase in that community. Anything having a price under
that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical.

[kestrel404]

And according to that chart, 85% of all communities will not stock items worth more than 3k gold. Indeed, fewer than half will stock any level 3 scrolls.

Although, that ruling is a LOT more optimistic than the general ruling of GMs I play with.

[Endarire]

An Artificer can make said scrolls, and has his own 'spell' list (infusions). He probably won't be zapping people round after round with a ranged touch attack, though a Stafficer blaster might.

[Urpriest]

An Artificer can make said scrolls, and has his own 'spell' list (infusions). He probably won't be zapping people round after round with a ranged touch attack, though a Stafficer blaster might.

More to the point, the difference is that Artificers can create magic items earlier and more often than they become practical by WBL, while a warlock doesn't get universal crafting powers until level 12, when WBL is high enough that scroll access is essentially part of the versatility baseline. Artificers aren't Tier 1 for their ability to make anything alone, they're Tier 1 because they can make things efficiently and at an early level.

[Boci]

@0Megabyte: Might want to check the 27th reply on the thread you linked.

[Koury]

And according to that chart, 85% of all communities will not stock items worth more than 3k gold. Indeed, fewer than half will stock any level 3 scrolls.

...:smallconfused:

Yes, you need a larger town to get stronger magics. Touche, sir.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, I would call Warlocks Tier 3. They have some versatility, but it takes some cheese to completely break a game.

For the ultimate mage-mart, Warlock12 needs to be paired with Chameleon2 for the floating feat necessary to make almost anything.

[Darklord Xavez]

I think maybe warlocks are high on tier 3, going to tier 2 eventually.
-Xavez

[Tyndmyr]

Tier 2? No.

I can buy tier 3, but they're not on the high end. Then again, I put more weight in endurance than some do.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Tier 2? No.

I can buy tier 3, but they're not on the high end. Then again, I put more weight in endurance than some do.

Agreed. Barring certain builds, they are low Tier 3, with the ability to handle a lot of different situations. Even those builds tend to be high-end Tier 3, rarely crossing into T2, simply because it is difficult to have a warlock able to have a counter to everything, which is the litmus test for T2.

[awa]

i agree maby tier 3 with heavy optimization but not tier 2 tier 2 does not need the scrolls because hes already a caster.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

i agree maby tier 3 with heavy optimization but not tier 2 tier 2 does not need the scrolls because hes already a caster.

A Hellfire Ur-Lock is definately a Tier 2 build, mostly due to 9th level cleric spells on top of Warlock. A straight Hellfire Warlock is... very close to T2, simply because he does have a win button in the form of damage. When you can dish out several thousand damage a round, no save and no SR, it becomes a no-save-just-die effect. The only reason it wouldn't is because it lacks the defenses necessary to be a true Tier 2.

[Urpriest]

A Hellfire Ur-Lock is definately a Tier 2 build, mostly due to 9th level cleric spells on top of Warlock. A straight Hellfire Warlock is... very close to T2, simply because he does have a win button in the form of damage. When you can dish out several thousand damage a round, no save and no SR, it becomes a no-save-just-die effect. The only reason it wouldn't is because it lacks the defenses necessary to be a true Tier 2.

A Hellfire Warlock kills things by damage. While it's good at it, it's not much better than TWF Rogues and optimized Warmages, both of which are still Tier 4. "Able to kill things via damage" does not Tier 3 make, let alone Tier 2.

Hellfire Ur-Locks are a different matter entirely, and are why there is a PrC Tier system. Ur-priest isn't something that can or should be taken into account in the base tier system.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A Hellfire Ur-Lock is definately a Tier 2 build, mostly due to 9th level cleric spells on top of Warlock. A straight Hellfire Warlock is... very close to T2, simply because he does have a win button in the form of damage. When you can dish out several thousand damage a round, no save and no SR, it becomes a no-save-just-die effect. The only reason it wouldn't is because it lacks the defenses necessary to be a true Tier 2.

Adding PrCs to a tier system made for base classes doesn't really work. :smallbiggrin:

Ur-Priest is a +2 tier class under many situations, so it would obviously bring the Warlock up a lot. Hellfire Warlock might bump you into low Tier 3, but you only have one real trick, so you can't be Tier 2, or even really high Tier 3. I can make, for example, a Frenzied Berserker who will may a DM cry, or break the world record in damage for a charge build, but that won't make me a higher tier. Hell, Fighter can deal hundreds to thousands of damage per round, but they're still solidly towards the bottom of the tier list, 'cause that's all they do.

[Gametime]

A Hellfire Warlock kills things by damage. While it's good at it, it's not much better than TWF Rogues and optimized Warmages, both of which are still Tier 4. "Able to kill things via damage" does not Tier 3 make, let alone Tier 2.



No, but even a normal warlock can afford to branch out significantly more than, say, a Warmage in his class abilities, and he does UMD (the Rogue's principle source of versatility) better than the Rogue.

Tier 3 asks if a build can contribute strongly in one area and competently in a few others. A Hellfire Warlock can. I'm not convinced it's got the chops to make tier 2, but tier 3? Sure.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A Hellfire Warlock kills things by damage. While it's good at it, it's not much better than TWF Rogues and optimized Warmages, both of which are still Tier 4. "Able to kill things via damage" does not Tier 3 make, let alone Tier 2.

Hellfire Ur-Locks are a different matter entirely, and are why there is a PrC Tier system. Ur-priest isn't something that can or should be taken into account in the base tier system.

Sorry, but your argument has the following gaps:

1) Hellfire Warlock can dish out damage, no save, no SR, just die now kkthxbai. Warmages do not have that ability, and rogue's damage output is *highly* dependent on a number of factors, any of which completely shut him down. The Hellfire Warlock can blast down Big T as easily as a Golem as easily as a Litch. His damage output is universally applicable, and there is *NOTHING* immune to it, thanks to Vitriolic Blast or simply Supernatural Transformation.

2) A Hellfire warlock does *FAR* more damage than either an optimized Rogue OR Warmage. Eldritch Glaive alone takes care of this. Neither Rogue nor Warmage can guarantee one-shot kills on everything they run across. Hellfire Warlock *CAN*.

3) Warmages run out of spells. Warlocks don't. You can run a Warmage out on endurance, or at least run him out on the flavor he needs to blast with. A Hellfire Warlock can do thousands of damage every round, all day long.

This isn't 'able to kill things with damage', this is 'guaranteed one-hit kill' which makes it a no-save-just-die without the [death] descriptor so you can't be protected from it. This is on par with Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos with a CL boosted to arbitrary levels. Only it also doesn't allow SR, so you can use it on golems and such. And you don't have to worry about alignments.

PLUS, there's no reason the Hellfire Warlock can't pick up, for example, Chilling Tentacles, for unlimited battlefield control, as well as having amazing defenses like Flee The Scene, lovely anti-caster abilities like Reaving Dispel, and still be able to do his usual Hellfire Warlock shtick.

[Urpriest]

Sorry, but your argument has the following gaps:

1) Hellfire Warlock can dish out damage, no save, no SR, just die now kkthxbai. Warmages do not have that ability, and rogue's damage output is *highly* dependent on a number of factors, any of which completely shut him down. The Hellfire Warlock can blast down Big T as easily as a Golem as easily as a Litch. His damage output is universally applicable, and there is *NOTHING* immune to it, thanks to Vitriolic Blast or simply Supernatural Transformation.

2) A Hellfire warlock does *FAR* more damage than either an optimized Rogue OR Warmage. Eldritch Glaive alone takes care of this. Neither Rogue nor Warmage can guarantee one-shot kills on everything they run across. Hellfire Warlock *CAN*.


I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Orb series, and in particular the Mailman build. A Warmage can use most of the Mailman's tricks. All of the above applies to them. Also, they can do them from range, while a warlock must close, at which point the uberchargers have already gutted the target. Oh, and uberchargers are also Tier 4.




3) Warmages run out of spells. Warlocks don't. You can run a Warmage out on endurance, or at least run him out on the flavor he needs to blast with. A Hellfire Warlock can do thousands of damage every round, all day long.



First, uberchargers do the same, and are Tier 4. Second, this is essentially a point for versatility. While I will grant you that warlocks do indeed have more options than warmages, this was true from the point where they got battlefield control and warmages didn't. However, their battlefield control is generally not level-appropriate. While warlocks can deal with a few unusual situations (yes, running all day until the casters have run out of spells is an unusual situation), they don't have nearly the versatility of an actual Tier 3 like a Beguiler or a ToB class.

[Susano-wo]

Isn't the benchmark of Tier 2 that they can do one thing suberbly well? (as in game-breakingly well?) I thought it was the tier 1s who have counters for everything, thus can deal with any situation, possibly to game-breaking levels...

[Urpriest]

Isn't the benchmark of Tier 2 that they can do one thing suberbly well? (as in game-breakingly well?) I thought it was the tier 1s who have counters for everything, thus can deal with any situation, possibly to game-breaking levels...

Generally a Tier 2 can do any one of a wide selection of things game-breakingly well, but must pick a small number of them. So a sorceror can be optimized to do nearly anything very very well, but will only be optimized to do one or two of these things.

In any case, one-shotting monsters=/=breaking the game, especially if it takes a full attack to do it.

[Tyndmyr]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Orb series, and in particular the Mailman build. A Warmage can use most of the Mailman's tricks. All of the above applies to them. Also, they can do them from range, while a warlock must close, at which point the uberchargers have already gutted the target. Oh, and uberchargers are also Tier 4.

The mailman build relies on incantatrix, a +2 tier PrC.

So, that does not in any way negate his claims about the hellfire warlock.

[Urpriest]

The mailman build relies on incantatrix, a +2 tier PrC.

So, that does not in any way negate his claims about the hellfire warlock.

I don't understand how Incanatrix could have been listed as a +2 Tier PrC. Its intended entry classes are Tier 1 or 2, and Tier 0 is essentially fictional and not a real category. As such, given the logic of the PrC Tiers system I don't understand where that number comes from.

Regardless, Incanatrix has that value because free metamagic means not only free maximize and twin, but free quicken, persist, and the like. Incanatrix increases versatility, not merely damage. A warmage mailman variant is still probably a Tier 4.

[Tael]

The mailman build relies on incantatrix, a +2 tier PrC.

So, that does not in any way negate his claims about the hellfire warlock.

No it doesn't. Any caster can do ridonkulous amounts of damage with just Arcane Thesis.


I don't understand how Incanatrix could have been listed as a +2 Tier PrC. Its intended entry classes are Tier 1 or 2, and Tier 0 is essentially fictional and not a real category. As such, given the logic of the PrC Tiers system I don't understand where that number comes from.

Regardless, Incanatrix has that value because free metamagic means not only free maximize and twin, but free quicken, persist, and the like. Incanatrix increases versatility, not merely damage. A warmage mailman variant is still probably a Tier 4.

The +2 is a generalization. It's just a way to differentiate between lower and higher power PrCs. And an incantatrix Warmage would be tier 3.

[lsfreak]

Part of the problem here is that the Tier List and the PrC Tier List really work differently. Taking a +2Tier PrC means nothing about how powerful your character is, except that it's likely to be better than the base character. Likewise, a -2Tier PrC doesn't drop a T1 character down to T3, it merely makes the character an unspecified amount worse. Arguably, a T1 PC with a T-2 PrC is still T2 and possibly still T1, just worse than a normal T1.

[Susano-wo]

@ Urpriest: That makes sense (the clarification RE Tier 2). Also, I wasn't really weighing on on the specific tier issues. I have waaaaaay too little experience in that dept. (Hell, the one Warlock PC I've played along side is a social warlock. Oh the hax and bull**** that Beguiling Influence brings to the bluff table! :D)

[Tyndmyr]

No it doesn't. Any caster can do ridonkulous amounts of damage with just Arcane Thesis.

It helps, and the build is also reliant on that. However, the additional -1 MM modifier is huge. It's a feat starved build.


The +2 is a generalization. It's just a way to differentiate between lower and higher power PrCs. And an incantatrix Warmage would be tier 3.

Eh, I'm quite comfortable with the use of negative numbers. It allows for a system that applies all round.

Hellfire warlock is probably justifiable as at least a +1 PrC, at any rate.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Orb series, and in particular the Mailman build. A Warmage can use most of the Mailman's tricks. All of the above applies to them. Also, they can do them from range, while a warlock must close, at which point the uberchargers have already gutted the target. Oh, and uberchargers are also Tier 4.




First, uberchargers do the same, and are Tier 4. Second, this is essentially a point for versatility. While I will grant you that warlocks do indeed have more options than warmages, this was true from the point where they got battlefield control and warmages didn't. However, their battlefield control is generally not level-appropriate. While warlocks can deal with a few unusual situations (yes, running all day until the casters have run out of spells is an unusual situation), they don't have nearly the versatility of an actual Tier 3 like a Beguiler or a ToB class.

Uberchargers are Tier 3... a one-trick pony whose trick is pretty darn game-breaking. Warlocks fit into this for that alone. When you put in all the other things they can do, it puts them solidly in T3.

Also, Flee The Scene can be used to put you into Glaive range, or if you want to give opponents a save, just use Eldritch Ball/Line and swat swarms of non-evasion mooks down. I don't think there's a single effect the Warmages have access to that do both area effect insta-gib *AND* does not allow SR, *AND* does not have a specific flavor to be immune to.

To get to Tier 2, it must not only have multiple game-breaking tricks, but also have an array of defenses which make it very difficult to take down if not specifically prepared for. Warlocks do not qualify for this, because they can only have one game-breaking trick (unless you want to count Diplomancy, but that's something completely different), and doesn't have a suitable array of defenses to qualify for Tier 2 by any means.

[Urpriest]

Also, Flee The Scene can be used to put you into Glaive range, or if you want to give opponents a save, just use Eldritch Ball/Line and swat swarms of non-evasion mooks down. I don't think there's a single effect the Warmages have access to that do both area effect insta-gib *AND* does not allow SR, *AND* does not have a specific flavor to be immune to.


Nitpick on this: Warlocks can't get "does not allow SR, *AND* does not have a specific flavor to be immune to". Their method for avoiding SR flavors the attack with acid.

And I had the understanding that a game-breaking one-trick pony is still Tier 4, but I'll go read the Tier definitions again.

[awa]

Isnt hellfire warlock a prestige class and thus not relevant to the tier discussion at all?

[Tael]

Isnt hellfire warlock a prestige class and thus not relevant to the tier discussion at all?

Accessibility to good material can really improve a class. See Bard. But you cannot assume a certain PrC when rating a class.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nitpick on this: Warlocks can't get "does not allow SR, *AND* does not have a specific flavor to be immune to". Their method for avoiding SR flavors the attack with acid.

And I had the understanding that a game-breaking one-trick pony is still Tier 4, but I'll go read the Tier definitions again.

Nope. Because they can pick up the feat Supernatural Transformation to make a SLA into a (Su) ability, which naturally ignores SR. Vitriolic Blast is only the most common way to bypass SR, which does add the Acid type, however the Hellfire bonus damage is actually untyped (or rather, Hellfire, which is so hot it ignores immunities to normal fire).