Defending Azure City.

[Ricky S]

I was re-reading oots the other day and I was particularly interested in the defence of Azure city.

If you were given the same resources and the same army to defend the city with as in oots. Would you have done anything differently in protection of the city? Is there any way that the city could have defeated Xykons army with their current forces?

[monomer]

Truthfully, I think the Order was wasted standing on the walls killing mooks. They should have been sent out as a team to attack the Goblin Army command post or harass their flanks.

Their spots on the wall could have been manned by either some of the mid-level paladins defending the throne room, or some of the clerics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html), who it seems were left completely in reserve behind the second walls.

[Obani]

I, personally, would have pulled a Tsukiko the second Team Evil started winning, and just handed them the keys to the castle. In all honesty, not the best defense strategy...:smallbiggrin:

[Warren Dew]

I would have committed the reserves to the breach when it became clear that's where the main threat was. In one of the comics, you can see a huge proportion of the Azure City army doing nothing behind the wall section most of the order is on, while the hobgoblins pour through the breach at the other end of the wall.

Basically, the problem was that Hinjo had abandoned his duties as overall commander by getting involved in a skirmish.

[slayerx]

Basically, the problem was that Hinjo had abandoned his duties as overall commander by getting involved in a skirmish.

Abandoned? that assumes he CHOSE to get involved in a skirmish when the fact of the matter is that he was AMBUSHED by the Xykon decoy and a ninja

[Gandariel]

if we don't count Xykon, yes, maybe
mmm.... V could have easily used in a better way her spells..like walls of fire +tons of archers.. or something else.
Another Control Weather (assuming Thor hasn't read the rules yet..) by Durkon would really have crushed many people...
Elan should have taken 10 on his check to try to raise the morale before the battle
Haley, well... she can't do much in a battle like this.... maybe she could have sneaked in the goblin camp during the night and poisoned the food...
Roy could have lead a team of strong fighters or paladins to flank from the side the hobgoblin's army...
and Belkar... i can't think of how he could have been more useful...

Hinjo could have distributed the troops better...for example the high level casters could have helped in the battle from the beginning, instead of waiting...

But.
if we count xykon, there's actually nothing they could do, since xykon can easily defeat the whole order with no effort...
maybe all the order could have tried to keep busy Xykon while Roy tried to Disrupt him, but i don't think so

[Cizak]

Abandoned? that assumes he CHOSE to get involved in a skirmish when the fact of the matter is that he was AMBUSHED by the Xykon decoy and a ninja

What ninja? :smallconfused:

[Zwums]

Something that people always seem to take for granted is the simple effectiveness of the most basic defensive weapons. With the amount of soldiers in the City, a trench filled with sharpened logs would have been a very simple deterrent, especially where gaps were made in the wall. Oil could have been heated, lit, and poured down on invaders. Said trench could also have been filled with oil, and lit, if it was provided. Even large stones and boiling water can make a difference in large numbers at key choke points. As stated before, certain members of the Order could have been used versus commands. Haley would have been the best candidate for cutting off the snakes head, so to speak. What would really be beneficial would have been seige weapons on the walls, and I didn't see many, if any, that I can remember.

[Warren Dew]

Abandoned? that assumes he CHOSE to get involved in a skirmish when the fact of the matter is that he was AMBUSHED by the Xykon decoy and a ninja

He was standing exposed on the curtain wall, as opposed to a more sensible location for a top commander.

[TreesOfDeath]

Travel back in time and make sure to distract Miko doesn't overhear Shojo, does avoiding the crapfest chain of events that happened when he died, thus avoiding the loss of the other lord's support and AZ having higher morale and a much larger army.

Simarly distract Redcloak a little so he arrives to late to stop Soon destroying Xykon and causing a premature Good End.

[SPoD]

Something that people always seem to take for granted is the simple effectiveness of the most basic defensive weapons. With the amount of soldiers in the City, a trench filled with sharpened logs would have been a very simple deterrent, especially where gaps were made in the wall. Oil could have been heated, lit, and poured down on invaders. Said trench could also have been filled with oil, and lit, if it was provided. Even large stones and boiling water can make a difference in large numbers at key choke points. As stated before, certain members of the Order could have been used versus commands. Haley would have been the best candidate for cutting off the snakes head, so to speak. What would really be beneficial would have been seige weapons on the walls, and I didn't see many, if any, that I can remember.

Then you should reread it. The Azurites had catapults on their towers, but many of them are coincidentally destroyed by Julio Scoundrel's ship two nights before the battle. Also, they DID try to have hot oil, but due to disruptions in the command structure, it was interpreted as coconut oil (and still proved somewhat effective anyway).

And as far as "cutting off the snake's head," that's an unrealistic strategy when the commanders of the enemy army are an epic-level lich sorcerer and an artifact-bearing high priest. The Order was never capable of defeating the leaders of that army in the first place. If Haley had snuck out alone to try to assassinate Redcloak, it would have ended up with a dead Haley.

Just about the only suggestion that you give that wasn't tried is the pit, and given that the enemy was willing to use its own troops' corpses as a ramp, that wouldn't have done much more than delay them anyway. "Deterrrents" only work in real life against human soldiers, not against zombies or fanatical fight-to-the-death hobgoblins.

[jidasfire]

I believe under the right circumstances, the battle might have been won. Okay, so you have two major problems: one is Xykon, who simply does his own thing, and the other is Redcloak and his massive army. If the Azure City troops had been distributed with any sort of actual strategy, they could have held out much longer. For one thing, putting the actually powerful members of the Sapphire Guard on the front lines would have devastated the hobgoblins and their undead support. Having them in the throne room and waiting for them to die and become Ghost Martyrs was a terrible decision. Also, rather than having the High Priest of the Twelve Gods sit back behind the lines and not use whatever powerful spells he had instead of, oh, I don't know, doing ANYTHING could have easily turned the tide somewhat for the rank and file, and perhaps given the good guys some magical creature support on par with Redcloak's Titanium Elementals (which were total BS and my first cry of foul in the battle, but whatever). Next, I'm still a little unclear as to why the Azurites didn't use their catapults much, since that would have again helped out the troops on the ground with minimal risk. I know Scoundrel took out a couple, but a city that size should have dozens. In the end, the only formidable threats on the board were the Elementals (which V managed to handle pretty well), the Death Knight, and Redcloak himself. The latter two were quite capable of doing significant damage, but I think this is where the Order comes in. Rather than just keeping them with the rank and file, where they're somewhat wasted, it makes sense to give them some reliable and probably magical means of communication and fast transport across the field, so they can put out the various fires created by the real threats. Instead of charging off after Xykon, where his awesomely powerful sword was still not much use, had Roy fought the Death Knight, he would have been on more even footing and could probably have won (of course he did actually kill said Death Knight, but that was an accident). I also think the combined power of the Order could have made its way to the center of the enemy ranks and taken down Redcloak, or at least caused him to make a strategic withdrawal. Hence, with a bit more planning and use of resources, that end of things could have gone much better.

Of course, none of that stops Xykon himself. Under pretty much any circumstances, he would have made it to the throne room and killed everyone in his path. But assuming Roy stuck with the Order and the Sapphire Guard was fighting on the front lines, he wouldn't have killed anyone particularly powerful. He would still have his dragon in this scenario, but he might have left it outside to do more killing. So anyway, Xykon makes his way to the throne, where waiting for him are Soon Kim and the Ghost Martyrs. Not quite as many, but still enough, since Kim is still there, and far and away the most powerful. With Redcloak and his clerics at least held back behind the walls, no one can do any anti-turning and Xykon has to burn more of his spells to beat them while Kim hacks away at his hit points. Also, assuming Miko still shows up to ruin things, the situation is different enough that she might not. There's no room of dead Sapphire Guard and no frozen O-Chul or his sword to give her the idea of destroying the gate, so perhaps she doesn't do it at all. The only major downside of this scenario is that without Redcloak in the room, Kim doesn't figure out how to kill Xykon permanently. So in that case, we're left with Xykon reforming, but given that Redcloak is either dead or fleeing, he's back to square one and likely to lick his wounds for awhile.

Now, there are some X-factors I haven't dealt with here, like the Monster in the Darkness, Nale and the Linear Guild, Kubota's assassins, Miko's stupidity, and Tsukiko's betrayal, but I believe that under the circumstances I describe, they are not particularly likely to turn the tide. Even if they did, it would turn Team Evil's brutally decisive victory into a nearly Pyrrhic one. Plus, the Order would probably not have been shattered, or Roy killed, or the Sapphire Guard destroyed, leaving the heroes in a better position to retake the city in a more timely manner if need be.

So yeah, they could have won. I'm not saying they would have exactly, but they most assuredly could have.

[Obani]

If Haley had snuck out alone to try to assassinate Redcloak, it would have ended up with a dead Haley.

That shouldn't make me happy, but it does...
So ashamed... of secret pride... gah!

[pendell]

With benefit of hindsight which I could not have had before the battle...

1) Ignore Xykon. Let him fly into the tower and get smacked by Soon. Do NOT let Roy jump heroically to attack him.

2) Pull back about 30% of the troops into a mobile reserve. Use them to plug gaps as needed. Place the reserve under O-chul. He's competent, cool under fire, brave but not stupid.

3) For that matter, pull the sapphire guard out of the tower where they are Xykon fodder and put them at the tip of the mobile reserve spear. Let Xykon go into the unoccupied tower and get smacked by Soon. That way the best force in the AC Order of Battle might accomplish something useful other than be massacred by an archlich to no gain.

4) Keep the OOTS together as a strike force. Do NOT let V go off on his own no matter the temptation, no matter how many guards get killed. The OOTS is deployed as a high-level fire brigade *as a team*. Roy doesn't get to heroically fight Xykon. V doesn't get to heroically fight a death knight by himself. They fight together at all times and are deployed against specific high-level threats that require PCs. The sole exception is Haley, for whom I have a different task.

5) If the entire goblin army is charging a breach in the wall, GET OUT OF THE WAY. Find some way, if possible, for the troops to sidestep in good order, then close the door behind them. I'm not quite sure how to do this , but it would seem to me that if the enemy is absolutely determined to get as many of his troops to point A as possible, it is important not only to let him get there but to ensure point A is the target for as much concentrated firepower as we can muster.

To put this crudely: If the enemy is determined to stick his **** in a particular spot, it is our job to ensure said spot is made into a garbage grinder. Put up token resistance until the equipment is in the garbage grinder, than throw the switch. VRROOOOOOM.

6) Have a withdrawal plan such that, if the battle is lost, the AC army can be preserved as a fighting force.

7) Have someone with a great deal less testosterone and a great deal more tactical sense in command of the city defenses. Take Hinjo's sword away, put him at an observation post, and make him fight with his brain. Put Haley at his side to advise him.

Alternate plan: Abandon the city entirely and leave a decoy force in place. Draw as much of the goblin army into the immediate vicinity of the castle as possible.

Then destroy the sapphire.

The resulting explosion destroys the castle and most of the goblin army.

Then sweep in with the intact AC army and clean up what's left. To really make this work, we would need the fantasy equivalent of an atomic bomb in the city -- once the majority of the goblin army is in the city, atomize the city and everything in it. Then clean up what's left. Property can be rebuilt or restored, but it takes generations to rebuild lost population and soldiers.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gandariel]

actually i think you totally forgot a thing about Xykon's plan.
Xykon decided to go to the throne room only after the Order found him and Roy fought him.

the plan, as Redcloak said, was that xykon would have ran at the opposite end of the castle, kill everyone, animate zombies and summon some monsters, and then guide this second army....
i think, if that worked, there would have been totally NO chance for azurites

[pendell]

actually i think you totally forgot a thing about Xykon's plan.
Xykon decided to go to the throne room only after the Order found him and Roy fought him.

the plan, as Redcloak said, was that xykon would have ran at the opposite end of the castle, kill everyone, animate zombies and summon some monsters, and then guide this second army....
i think, if that worked, there would have been totally NO chance for azurites

I'm afraid I must disagree with you. Respectfully, of course.

Xykon crafted that ball with a symbol of insanity because he had no intention whatsoever of adhering to redcloak's plan. He hasn't got the slightest respect for Redcloak or his ideas. He slept through the strategy session, then went off and did his own thing. It didn't have anything to do with Roy or the OOTS, who posed no threat to him whatsoever. It's just that Xykon is a loose cannon. It almost proved his undoing at Soon's hands, and would have , if not for the almighty power of Plot.

From that point until V broke into his throne room, Xykon was much more respectful of Redcloak and went along with his ideas, idling away his time while Redcloak did what Redcloak believed needed doing. Then, when V and O-chul took his philactery, Xykon reverted to his previous contempt for Redcloak, demanding that the entire goblin army find his philactery, and once this is done they leave. Xykon is back in charge and is no longer listening to Redcloak.


I half expect Xykon to destroy the city when he leaves, since he has no further use for them. It's even possible he'll force Redcloak to do it, and Redcloak will, "for the sake of the greater good", making a complete mockery of his speech to himself in the mirror that this would all be worth it.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

I think most of you is too optimistic about the impact those mid level paladins and casters could have had on the battle, still I agree that both the paladins and the mid level casters could have been used better.
In particular, I would have used the casters to buff the troops (think on how much a single +1 to hit would mean when it comes to that kind of numbers), while the paladins could have doubled as healers.
Also, Tsukiko on the front line would have had less chances of betray azure city.
Using the oots as a strike team, I'm not sure. They had no means of teleporting, and while they could have probably took down redcloak alone, they had no way of being sure not to stumble on Xykon and die there. Plus, too many mooks around, and even invisibility and fly have their limits.
On putting the oots together, that is good advice. The way pc classes are written, they work better as a team than as individuals. So let V go on his own to defeat the elementals, but have the rest of oots regroup with him immediately thereafter.
Hinjo on the fron line, I think was a good thing. In the real world a general in the front is just another soldier, but in oots hinjo is high level enough to be worth a few hundred soldiers.

Still, I'm not sure that would have been enough to turn the battle.

EDIT @ pendell, the problem with your spoiler is
If Xykon gives that order, andRedcloak refuses, Xykon would kill Redcloak and then destroy the city himself. So, what could Redcloak really do?

[pendell]

@King of Nowhere, in response to your spoiler comment.


If Xykon gives that order, andRedcloak refuses, Xykon would kill Redcloak and then destroy the city himself. So, what could Redcloak really do?

That's really the point I'm trying to make. Redcloak will do exactly what he is told, commit any atrocity, so long as he can continue to tell himself it will be worth it.

What could he do? Right-eye knew the answer to that. Doesn't matter. I don't think it will ever occur to him but to walk down the path that the Dark One and Xykon have laid out for him. Because doing otherwise would require him to admit that he's wrong. It would require him to admit that he's thrown away the lives of goblins and his own brother for NOTHING. Nothing at all.

Still ... he had the ability to recognize that what he was doing to the hobgoblins was wrong, and he changed his actions based on that. So who knows? Maybe there will be a Heel Face Turn somewhere down the line. Certainly he seems to have more potential for it than Xykon.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Draconi Redfir]

I believe under the right circumstances, the battle might have been won. Okay, so you have two major problems: one is Xykon, who simply does his own thing, and the other is Redcloak and his massive army. If the Azure City troops had been distributed with any sort of actual strategy, they could have held out much longer. For one thing, putting the actually powerful members of the Sapphire Guard on the front lines would have devastated the hobgoblins and their undead support. Having them in the throne room and waiting for them to die and become Ghost Martyrs was a terrible decision. Also, rather than having the High Priest of the Twelve Gods sit back behind the lines and not use whatever powerful spells he had instead of, oh, I don't know, doing ANYTHING could have easily turned the tide somewhat for the rank and file, and perhaps given the good guys some magical creature support on par with Redcloak's Titanium Elementals (which were total BS and my first cry of foul in the battle, but whatever). Next, I'm still a little unclear as to why the Azurites didn't use their catapults much, since that would have again helped out the troops on the ground with minimal risk. I know Scoundrel took out a couple, but a city that size should have dozens. In the end, the only formidable threats on the board were the Elementals (which V managed to handle pretty well), the Death Knight, and Redcloak himself. The latter two were quite capable of doing significant damage, but I think this is where the Order comes in. Rather than just keeping them with the rank and file, where they're somewhat wasted, it makes sense to give them some reliable and probably magical means of communication and fast transport across the field, so they can put out the various fires created by the real threats. Instead of charging off after Xykon, where his awesomely powerful sword was still not much use, had Roy fought the Death Knight, he would have been on more even footing and could probably have won (of course he did actually kill said Death Knight, but that was an accident). I also think the combined power of the Order could have made its way to the center of the enemy ranks and taken down Redcloak, or at least caused him to make a strategic withdrawal. Hence, with a bit more planning and use of resources, that end of things could have gone much better.

Of course, none of that stops Xykon himself. Under pretty much any circumstances, he would have made it to the throne room and killed everyone in his path. But assuming Roy stuck with the Order and the Sapphire Guard was fighting on the front lines, he wouldn't have killed anyone particularly powerful. He would still have his dragon in this scenario, but he might have left it outside to do more killing. So anyway, Xykon makes his way to the throne, where waiting for him are Soon Kim and the Ghost Martyrs. Not quite as many, but still enough, since Kim is still there, and far and away the most powerful. With Redcloak and his clerics at least held back behind the walls, no one can do any anti-turning and Xykon has to burn more of his spells to beat them while Kim hacks away at his hit points. Also, assuming Miko still shows up to ruin things, the situation is different enough that she might not. There's no room of dead Sapphire Guard and no frozen O-Chul or his sword to give her the idea of destroying the gate, so perhaps she doesn't do it at all. The only major downside of this scenario is that without Redcloak in the room, Kim doesn't figure out how to kill Xykon permanently. So in that case, we're left with Xykon reforming, but given that Redcloak is either dead or fleeing, he's back to square one and likely to lick his wounds for awhile.

Now, there are some X-factors I haven't dealt with here, like the Monster in the Darkness, Nale and the Linear Guild, Kubota's assassins, Miko's stupidity, and Tsukiko's betrayal, but I believe that under the circumstances I describe, they are not particularly likely to turn the tide. Even if they did, it would turn Team Evil's brutally decisive victory into a nearly Pyrrhic one. Plus, the Order would probably not have been shattered, or Roy killed, or the Sapphire Guard destroyed, leaving the heroes in a better position to retake the city in a more timely manner if need be.

So yeah, they could have won. I'm not saying they would have exactly, but they most assuredly could have.


too avoid haveing Miko distroy the gate, you could always have her fight the goblins to the death on the premise that she will be redeemed if she dose so.

though the palidans wouldent be able to do that, or the tieing up/blindfolding probibly required to bring her out to one of the armys flanks, but so long as someone other then the order did it, she could do some real damage.

maby give her a cleric or something to make sure she dosent die right away.

[slayerx]

He was standing exposed on the curtain wall, as opposed to a more sensible location for a top commander.

How so? he's one of the most powerful fighters in a battle where they are greatly outnumbered. Every goblin he kills is one soldier saved... he could probably kill hundreds or even thousands of goblins with enough clerical support... furthermore they would only have relatively few soliders, himself included, that could resist ghouls... the walls may have been lost if he was not there to help in the fight directly

Also being on the battlefield did not stop him from issuing orders to go and protect the breech... in fact beginning anywhere else would have prevented him from actually taking part in protecting the breech. Maybe we should go tell Gandalf that he should not be on the frontlines either despite how much good he can do.


Something that people always seem to take for granted is the simple effectiveness of the most basic defensive weapons. With the amount of soldiers in the City, a trench filled with sharpened logs would have been a very simple deterrent, especially where gaps were made in the wall.
It takes a long amount of time to build such trenches... they would not be able to build them mid-battle in time to protect a gap. The trenches would have to be built before hand and would be simple to get by... for instance if you built them around the edge of the walls on the outside, the enemy could just build ladders long enough to reach over the trenches and up to the wall... If you build them around the inside of the wall for the event of a breach, well the pits might get filled up with broken wall, or the enemy would just fill up the trenches with rumble from the wall

Its better than nothing, but not all that effective... and they would have only had about a day to build all those trenches

[DaveMcW]

Of course, none of that stops Xykon himself. Under pretty much any circumstances, he would have made it to the throne room and killed everyone in his path.

Wait - if we KNOW what Xykon wants, why don't we just give it to him??

[Kish]

Wait - if we KNOW what Xykon wants, why don't we just give it to him??
Disintegrate! Gust of Wind!

[jidasfire]

Wait - if we KNOW what Xykon wants, why don't we just give it to him??

You know, if Hinjo were less of a paladin, he'd have sent Kubota out to negotiate with Xykon. Because of course Kubota would have died within seconds, which would either rally the nobles to avenge him, or cow them to the point that they'd listen to Hinjo about this guy being dangerous. Even if they still ran, there'd be no second-string mustachioed jerk making things worse.

[Zwums]

Then you should reread it. The Azurites had catapults on their towers, but many of them are coincidentally destroyed by Julio Scoundrel's ship two nights before the battle. Also, they DID try to have hot oil, but due to disruptions in the command structure, it was interpreted as coconut oil (and still proved somewhat effective anyway).

And as far as "cutting off the snake's head," that's an unrealistic strategy when the commanders of the enemy army are an epic-level lich sorcerer and an artifact-bearing high priest. The Order was never capable of defeating the leaders of that army in the first place. If Haley had snuck out alone to try to assassinate Redcloak, it would have ended up with a dead Haley.

Just about the only suggestion that you give that wasn't tried is the pit, and given that the enemy was willing to use its own troops' corpses as a ramp, that wouldn't have done much more than delay them anyway. "Deterrrents" only work in real life against human soldiers, not against zombies or fanatical fight-to-the-death hobgoblins.

Well, I guess I should reread it then! :smallwink: And my history major is apparently corrupting my mind, because you're right that I reasoned it as if it was humans versus humans in a traditional sense. Stupid schooling.

But, under the assumption that the hobos used some semblance of structure, could Haley take out slightly lesser leaders? Would that not lead to disorganization?

[Urist McDwarf]

Why not just flood the feild infront of the city with magma? PERFECT PLAN!

[Liwen]

First, I'd like to point out that they were two ninjas ambushing Hinjo, not just one and Xykon-Decoy.

And Second, with benefit of hindsight, the entire Battle Strategy should have resolved around delaying or killing Redcloak. No Redcloak means No Chlorine elemental meaning Tsukiko won't Shout the prison wall while killing said elemental, Miko and Linear Guild will remain in prison, no gate shall explode and Soon will have free play to pound Xykon into dust. With Xykon down and a proper distribution of all the casters, (clerics and paladins) that were sitting at the castle waiting for their pals to die and rendering their healing capabilities useless, in front line positions would have made for a much more capable defense. The oil should have been heated and Catapults should have been used during the entire fight.

Use of the Order of the Stick :

1) Have Durkon and Roy Regroup with V at the breach. Make sure both Roy and Durkon become one of the magically enhanced soldiers and Stack it with Thor's might for devastating psychological effect on the Hobos since Durkon would become as tall as the wall breach, effectively becoming the wall. Add O-Chul to the mix since he's one hell of a tank. The presence of two healers would also makes all the big soldiers practically invincible for as long as healing is available.

2) Have Haley close to Hinjo at all times as an adviser. He's too much of a paladin to be an effective war commander. Plus she would likely spot the ninjas (okay maybe not)

3) Let Belkar do his own thing. Seriously that was beast. Back him up with an entire squad of clerics. Have the Mark of Justice modified to allow killing of evil creatures within the confines of a city.

4) When Redcloak calls retreat of the forces at the breach and while he comes charging in with the entire army, have the High Priest of the Twelve Gods and any clerics high level enough to be capable of casting 3rd level spells Stone Shape the rumbles into a new solid wall(keeping the limitations of the spell in mind, they will never have the time or the spells slots to rebuilt it completely but certainly high and solid enough to effectively nullify the charge), then tell all archers to volley the dude on the giant elephant until he drops. At the same time, have V, who conserved AOE spells up until now to nuke the Hobos. HPotTG could also participate in that effort. (flame strike and such)

5) Should Redcloak ever die, claims the phylactery after the battle and destroy it for a deader than dead Xykon. (theoretically the knowledge of the phylactery would be transferred from Soon, but I'm not entirely sure he knew what the phylactery was in advance or if he learned it using some kind of magical detection of knowledge skill check during his fight with Xykon and Redcloak)

6) Mock Evil side by calling GG and advance to Diamond League.

[Doomboy911]

Given the option I'd go for the Gobwin Knob method of putting the city high up. Should the hobgoblins attack they'd face pitfalls placed all over the hill AND fill the holes with different kinds of monsters. Once they fall in the monsters come out and wreak havoc.

[blunk]

I would've swapped out the background music - less solitary woman singing in minor key, more tympani played in 3-3-2 rhythm.

[Detrinex]

Problem 1: A crisis could have been averted if the team was not split up during the siege by the titanium elements. They tore holes in the walls (massive ones, in fact) that eventually led to the death of the giant pikemen, at least 20 soldiers, General Chang, and possibly an indirect reason why Tsukiko ditched Azure City.

Problem 2: If Shojo was still alive, troop morale would be a helluva lot higher, and Hinjo wouldn't have to split his Lord of the City role with the Paladin role. Miko would still be a valuable asset to Azure City, being an insane Paladin who could easily take out 100 hobgoblins before Xykon blasts her.

[whitelaughter]

There are several good ideas here, but consider:

1) taking out the Big Bads: this was the plan originally, but was scuttled by the appearance of 3 extra Xykons on the field.

2)Do something different with Tsukiko: this is limited by how much was known about her and her spell list. Keep her behind for buffing and healing? On a rooftop for lobbing fireballs, while flanked by Roy and Haley? Something else? Whatever the plan, it depends on knowing her memorised spells: and she'd have the Wisdom to list spells that would encourage putting her where she wanted to be. Even Mark of Justice isn't an option because there isn't time for a Cleric to swap the spell out.

3) Keep Hinjo back from the front: no, because he has spells/Turning/Smites/multiple attacks/lay on hands/Wolfie to let loose, and only needs to save a few HP for leadership duties. It makes more sense to be out the front early, and then when worn down pull back to handle strategic decisions. Also, consider his AC; arrows would only have a 1 in 20 chance of hitting him, so he can soak more arrows than a grunt soldier in lesser armour.

4) Moat, spikes and flaming oil: good stuff, but would requires several days to set up, not hours. The city *could* have done this if the warning towers hadn't been neutralised, and probably would have. (And yes the goblins would have swarmed the walls anyway, but at the cost of another few thousand goblins, so well worth while).
================================================
So what could have been done? well, understand that the city went from long term peace - and a festive holiday - to a war footing in only a few hours. That's the real problem; Hinjo didn't have time to give all the orders that needed to be given.
If he *had* had the time, or a reliable adjuntant giving orders then:
1) organise the civilians to build barricades behind the walls, so that when the walls are breached, a second line of defence can be formed rather than having the city fall. The citizens should be organised into militia units that are placed on the rooftops with orders to hurl tiles etc (the 1-in-20 chance cuts both ways, a thousand commoners means 50 hits per round) while the soldiers prevent the goblins from getting onto the rooftops, and archers engage in counterbattery fire.
2) Reassign all commercial/festive uses of magic to protect the city; a city this size will have magic for non-combat purposes, especially given the peace the city has known. Any spell has combat applications though!
3)Prepare to torch the city; ideally section by section. If the hobs cannot exploit a breach because the city is on fire, then the battle can continue along the rest of the wall. (Civilians should torch the city when they run out of rooftiles, they and soldiers draw back: once the fire is firmly ablaze the soldiers move to a different sector while the civilians stop the blaze from spreading).
4) Call in help: V's master comes to mind here. Given the city can teach Power Words, they might even have something to offer in return!
5) Give speeches. Hinjo is on a Paladin's charisma; a few simple pep talks could greatly reduce the damage caused by his uncles death and the betrayal of the nobles. If the soldiers had tried to hold the line, they *might* have succeeded and would definitely have done more damage.

[Ricky S]

One thing I never understand is why don't the archers fire earlier? I mean doesn't a bow have 10 range increments? So even with the horrible accuracy it wont matter because the hobgoblins were bunched up so close together anyway. Sure they will raise their shields but a lot of arrows will still hit their mark.

I would have released Miko. I would have given her the chance to help. Then she might not have blown up the entire castle. But one does have to ask the question, even if Miko hadn't blown up the castle and Soon had killed Xykon how would they deal with the massive force of hobgoblins and undead inside their walls? They would have still lost the city.

[derfenrirwolv]

Send the order down to the docks the night before. Have V fireball one of the nobles boats. Inform the other nobles that their men will be on the front lines or the nobles will be at the bottom of the ocean.

[pendell]

Then ninjas attack and the City now faces an internal civil war against the nobles as well as an external war against the goblins.

I don't think this is a good plan.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't know, trying to force the nobles to cooperate would be worth a try: they had a lot of mid-level people in their payroll that could have made a difference.
Of course, Hinjo would never do that, because he'll stick to the law and the paladin's code. No way, Shojo was a better ruler

[Kish]

I don't know, trying to force the nobles to cooperate would be worth a try: they had a lot of mid-level people in their payroll that could have made a difference.
You don't seem to be getting what pendell's saying. Could the nobles' agents make a difference? Certainly. Would the nobles' agents make a difference if the new ruler had fireballed one of their boats and openly threatened them? Certainly.

Would that difference be anything Hinjo would like? Absolutely not. More along the lines of, "All the other nobles now recognize Kubota as the true Lord of Azure City, you may leave in peacepieces."

[derfenrirwolv]

Would that difference be anything Hinjo would like? Absolutely not. More along the lines of, "All the other nobles now recognize Kubota as the true Lord of Azure City, you may leave in peacepieces."

Good, they're now unified and Kubota has a vested interest in seeing that HIS city doesn't get sacked. :smallamused:

[pendell]

Only if Hinjo surrenders immediately, which he won't.

Your solution only works if one side or the other is altruistic enough to immediately surrender for the greater good. And if that were so, the nobles wouldn't be evacuating in the first place.

No, the result would be civil war, and that's a luxury Azure City can ill afford with an army knocking on their door.

*MY* choice would be to mindrape Kubota. Once he unreservedly puts all his resources at Hinjo's disposal and himself in the front line, the other nobles will fall swiftly into line :smallamused:.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[derfenrirwolv]

Only if Hinjo surrenders immediately, which he won't.


Well, the premise is how would we defend azure city assumes we're in charge somehow, which means either we are Hinjo or for some reason have control over him.

There isn't a good strategic solution to dealing with the invasion. Given the rather creative tactics by redcloak and numeric advantage of the invaders the only thing that might have made a difference is more power. Getting more power requires getting the nobles in the boat and their guards and wizards off of their keisters. If that means risking civil war or giving the city to Kubota then so be it.

[Obani]

I would have released Miko. I would have given her the chance to help. Then she might not have blown up the entire castle. But one does have to ask the question, even if Miko hadn't blown up the castle and Soon had killed Xykon how would they deal with the massive force of hobgoblins and undead inside their walls? They would have still lost the city.

I agree, if you're going to let Tsukiko (clearly evil) out to fight, you should at least let Miko (good, if absolutely insane) do her part. That seems like a duh to me. Miko's a good fighter, and she really hates goblins. In fact, why not send her on a suicide mission to kill as many goblins as possible? You'd be killing, like fifty goblins and one annoying paladin with one stone! ^_^

[hamishspence]

At the time, Hinjo's criteria for release included "must not be charged with a capital crime"

Miko was on death row- Tsukiko wasn't.

[King of Nowhere]

If burning some noble's boats lead to civil war, I fail to see how mindraping one of them should have a different outcome. Assuming Kubota don't already have some protection from nmental domination (imo would be a fairly common precaution for nobles and kings in such a world) and the Azurites had access to that kind of spells (Hinjo didn't have access to teleportation during the battle).
I'd rather try to gather all the nobles together and then threaten them.

Anyway, we mnay disagree on the details, but we cuncur that forcing the nobles to cooperate somehow was a key to winning.
The azurites were outnumbered three to one, and the fortifications don't count much if you can tear them down with titanium elementals. So having more power was the only real way of wining.

Of course Hinjo would never do any of that. But I would have risked civil war to force the noble to protect the city.
Not only because it was the better way of defending the city, but also because it is completely wrong that the nobles can go out at sea with their men and leave the commoners to defend their city. A paladin shouldn't allow that

[Detrinex]

One thing I never understand is why don't the archers fire earlier? I mean doesn't a bow have 10 range increments? So even with the horrible accuracy it wont matter because the hobgoblins were bunched up so close together anyway. Sure they will raise their shields but a lot of arrows will still hit their mark.

I would have released Miko. I would have given her the chance to help. Then she might not have blown up the entire castle. But one does have to ask the question, even if Miko hadn't blown up the castle and Soon had killed Xykon how would they deal with the massive force of hobgoblins and undead inside their walls? They would have still lost the city.

Bad move, considering Miko killed Shojo, tried to kill Hinjo, attempted to kill the OotS entirely (in Shojo's throne room where Miko smashed Belkar into the throne room), and no longer trusts them in order to be on their side.

[blackjack217]

Plan:
1 force the nobles into line by confiscation their samurai. They can leave they just get no protection from ninja death squads.
2. Revive the wizard have him with the order of the stick.
3. give miko a atonment spell and tell her to kill redcloak. If she kills him then great if not then one more member of the martyrs, one who is as powerful as redcloak. Also Miko will die eather way so that be good
4. Modify the greater mark of justice to say this: except hobgoblins.
3. Have Sojio's daddy show up in the martyrs, cause you know, he was a paladin too and presumably a powerful one.
run out the battle as the comic with the following exceptions:
1. reassign the pallys to form a mobile force ready to deal with the breach.
2. equip roy with an item that allows him to teleport to the castle (not throne room) (it works like a word of recall). he uses it when he falls
3. have v set the rampart of corpses on fire then the pallys move to defend the breach W/ casters and have them summon mounts and uranium elementals. :smallsmile:
4. when roy teleports himself and the rest of the party to the castle they arrive in the throne room after Xkon has killed all of the lords retainers who were guarding the castle (so I sent them on a suicide mission I be terrible and am deprive unscrupulous nobles of their private army at the same time) and enters the empty throne room to be attacked by the gost martyrs led by One epic and two high level paladins. Basically lure him in and hit him with everything we can pull off the battle line.
5. the fire will prevent the undead from exploiting the breach giving the casters a long enough time to cast wall of stone fixing the breach.
6. the catapults will focus on the enemies trying to get through the breach stopping redcloaks charge from ever occurring (and helping out at the breach) without readcloaks timely assistance and with a higher level force facing him Xkyon will get smashed allowing the goast martyrs to charge forth
have dead miko clear the walls with most of the martyrs while the order kills any left at the breach with some order backing him up.
endgame with the walls cleared and the breach sealed soon and the martyrs crush red-cloak, discover the phylactery and have the order destroy it and the cloak. End campaign.

[Kish]

3. give miko a atonment spell

The Atonement spell conspicuously does not do anything for an unrepentant fallen paladin who doesn't believe she did anything wrong.

[Irbis]

I'd call Konan to borrow her 600 billion Explosive Tags, then stuck half of them in the Throne Room, the other half sprinkled outside the walls.

Problem solved :smalltongue:

[Gray Mage]

Some of the proposed ideas in this thread are good, except for one that everyone is saying, so I'll contest it, don't worry, it'll make sense (I hope). Don't fire the catapults. The boulder that hit the mook that saved the hobgoblin is what drove RC to break through the breach with the army. Had it not happened, he wouldn't be in the throne room, so Xykon wuld be dead and the hobgoblins would still be being killed in the walls. The only problem is that the couldn't have known that this would turn out this way.

[Ricky S]

Bad move, considering Miko killed Shojo, tried to kill Hinjo, attempted to kill the OotS entirely (in Shojo's throne room where Miko smashed Belkar into the throne room), and no longer trusts them in order to be on their side.

Yea except by her being in prison when it all went down she went off and did her own thing. At least if she was on the walls defending she wouldn't have blown up the gate and would have killed many many hobgoblins.

[slayerx]

Yea except by her being in prison when it all went down she went off and did her own thing. At least if she was on the walls defending she wouldn't have blown up the gate and would have killed many many hobgoblins.
You really think that if Miko was on the walls, that she would NOT go and hunt down the "obviously evil order of the stick before they could betray azure city and aid Xykon"? honestly, the only reason she didn't try to kill them when she broke out is because she didn't know where they were and just headed for the throne room instead... had she run into anyone from the order you can be sure she'd try to kill them... hell even if you put her in the throne room instead of the walls, if she new the order was in this fight and on the walls she likely go hunt them down

honestly she was less trustworthy than the prisoners... i mean atleast you could find a way to bribe them to be loyal (Though Hinjo apparently didn't bribe enough)... really Miko was like 99% certain to screw things up with her horribly skewed perspective on things

[rewinn]

I would've swapped out the background music - less solitary woman singing in minor key, more tympani played in 3-3-2 rhythm.

More cowbell.

Definitely MORE COWBELL!

---

Seriously, most of these suggestions are good ideas in retrospect, but only because we know what actually happened.

Remember: the Curtain Wall never fell - it was abandoned because of the breach (which happened only due to the elemental innovation) AND the ninja attack on the inner gate AND the slaughter of the midlevel spellcasters by Tsukiko. Take away any one of these unforeseeables and you're left with an army of hobbos in a yard surrounded by bluebeards shooting at them ... especially a whole lotta midlevels who've been waiting for just that moment.

[The_Admiral]

Just about the only suggestion that you give that wasn't tried is the pit, and given that the enemy was willing to use its own troops' corpses as a ramp, that wouldn't have done much more than delay them anyway. "Deterrrents" only work in real life against human soldiers, not against zombies or fanatical fight-to-the-death hobgoblins.

ah Russians

[Swordpriest]

From a tactical and strategic point of view, the Azurites definitely spread their hardest-hitting troops (that is, high-level characters) much too thin. They should have been concentrated into one, or at most two, death squads to deal with whatever needed to be dealt with.

To use a real-world tactical analogy -- Alexander the Great used his army as a the "anvil" and his elite heavy cavalry, the Companions, as the "hammer." Putting all of the Companions together turned them into a hard-hitting, almost unstoppable force. If he'd deployed them one here, two there, one in a third place, they would not have been a decisive force. The heroes and the high priest of Azure City, plus probably Hinjo, should have been together as a mobile strike team, going wherever they were needed.

(I still can't figure out what the high priest was doing standing in that courtyard, actually.)

Mistake number two was letting Xykon decide where the attempts to kill would take place. Obviously, they knew he might get to the throne room; they knew the ghost-martyrs were there. Therefore, since killing him was their main goal, turning the throne room into an even more deadly trap would have been an excellent tactic to employ. They know he's going there; they know they have a force there that's going to give him a hard time; so having more of their heavy hitters there would be almost certain to lead to his demise.

Roy jumping up to fight him was just dumb; he separated himself from all support and basically let Xykon take on their strongest forces piecemeal. If you're going to fight him, make it on ground of your own choosing. Give him a golden bridge into the throne room, and have ALL of your anti-Xykon forces concentrated there. Roy would have done better to just ignore Xykon and kill hobgoblins than waste part of their force in a cavalry-against-tanks attack like that.

[derfenrirwolv]

(I still can't figure out what the high priest was doing standing in that courtyard, actually.)

Exactly what you thought he should be doing: Putting the most possible power in a small space that the enemy was almost guaranteed to go to.

Given the 4 prong redcloak attack, the only spot you had a good chance of meeting the charge was at the bullseye itself: near the throne room. Since only paladins could apparently be raised as "backup" it was as close as he could get and still be an obstacle to anyone heading for the throne room.

[blackjack217]

The Atonement spell conspicuously does not do anything for an unrepentant fallen paladin who doesn't believe she did anything wrong.

Fine have the ghost of soon talk to her and explain things, she will trust him right? Still my point about burning the corpses was a good one I think. And seriously where was Shojo's dad?

[loser0ll]

Alright - here's my basic concepts. I'll assume I have only the resources and knowledge that Hinjo/OotS had access to. I'll also leave out long-term flaws, of which there were an incredible number for a militaristic order who regularly went on crusading offensives, were designed for absolute defense, and who knew in advance that some very nasty forces were meddling with the Gates. That's right - never forget that while they didn't know the actual army was arriving soon, they did know that not only was someone aware of the gates, but -two- others had been destroyed. And they -did- know about Lirian's gate being destroyed for some time - remember the joke comic about "So... got any Ranks in Search?"


1) In a Feudal situation like that, refusing to serve in a battle is a defection and treason - no question about it. So, if the nobles demanded negotiations or they would leave... accept, but require two of the representatives by nobles - one selected by Hinjo and one selected by the Nobles themselves. If they can't do this within the hour, the second choice falls to Hinjo. They can't refuse without admitting that Xykon not only can't be negotiated with, but can't even be -approached- without a guarantee of death. This refusal to accept demands of negotiation wasn't just stupid - it was borderline out of character. While this has flaws, it add credibility to your own case, follows the rules of war, and gives you a way to punish outright treason.

2) Do -not- release any of the prisoners. That was stupid on an incredible level. The value of a heavy defensive position is -entirely- limited by it's greatest weakness. When you deliberately unleash untrustworthy, powerful, lawbreaking characters into your ranks (INCLUDING A FREAKING NECROMANCER, WHEN YOU ARE AN ARMY OF PALADINS AND THE ENEMY IS LEAD BY A EPIC LEVEL SORCERER LICH!!!) you are a moron of such an incredible class that you should be forced to surrender immediately. If I were one of the Nobles, when I learned of this action, I WOULD HAVE LEFT TOO.

3) Remove Belkar's Mark of Justice. He has aptly shown that he was under reasonable control by Roy. And there had to be -someone- with a Remove Curse handy that could be given the Password to remove the Mark very easily. Or a freaking scroll, or something -so no claims of not having enough time to swap out spells. This could have seriously altered the battle.

4) Slap the PC's. They have repeatedly shown a disdain for NPC's - especially Roy. There was even a joke strip about it. Roy acted like all that mattered was the PC's versus Xykon... but even if they had engaged Xykon and magically held their own somehow, he would have been a quick hop-step-and-jump over to an army of Casters ready to heal him - while the PC's had to stick with running around much less quickly, and find an already overtaxed Cleric to slowly heal them, if the army hasn't already collapsed by then. Xykon has repeatedly beaten otherwise superior foes by bashing them with magical damage, then resorting to Energy Drain - for once, Soon had the upper hand. Hinjo knew that the PC's weren't critical for taking out Xykon - they weren't even a real option. He should have at least told them that it was under control. The PC's could have turned the tide in a number of critical locations, and probably could have just swamped Redcoat all at once if he made himself too vulnerable. But that's bonus - the key is just getting the PC's to try and save the city instead of rush for their personal quest.

5) Even in just a few hours, some basic defenses could have been prepared. Shallow trenches could have kept Hobgoblins from Running - just a couple feet of rough terrain here and there would have cut them down to under 1/2 of their otherwise maximum speed. Shooting when they were further away would have helped this too. Assuming the Hobos have AC 15 (MM entry) and the archers only have about a +1 Bonus each, that means a roll of 14 or higher hits. They certainly qualified for that +1 Height advantage - no doubt about that. Knock them on up to +2. If they have either a Weapon Focus (Longbow) or 12+ Dexterity, that's another +1 - we'll assume they only have 1 of these though, to be fair. That's +3. Ready an attack to fire as soon as they're within range - steadily sniping. Even with small numbers being killed, you are -not- going to run out of arrows by any reasonable measure in a large city like this. Each corpse also makes things a little slower for the next round of Hobos. More and more dead before hitting the walls. This is all without considering a bonus for them being so tightly packed either.

6) Factor in reality. Titanium Elementals is a stretch - you'd still need an incredibly strong catapult to hurl them that far, and they shouldn't be able to do that much damage. Think about the extra distance they traveled, and how much velocity they must have lost to wind resistance. If you want to factor in reality (extending the Range of the Catapults by using unusual ammo) factor it in negatively too. Real castle walls take how many shots before they suffer any real damage at all? That was Plot Power, plain and simple.

7) Take a fair number of those Paladins away from the Gate. Why? Because the important part is making sure that you -don't lose your whole city and army- since even if the ghosts had scared off the victorious Hobos, that wouldn't matter - sooner of later, they could come back. If you're worried about Xykon getting back there alone, leave it to Soon - he proved he could handle it. Let's not forget - if you didn't let loose the prisoners, the tiny crack that allowed Miko to escape (again, totally Plot Power, even with the Greater Shout by Tsukiko) wouldn't have formed, etc... you get the idea.

8) Pull in the high level Clerics of the 13 Gods. That's a no-brainer. If you keep your LEADER in because of his combat abilities, don't keep the best freaking CLERICS out of the fight!

9) I'd keep going... but really, the battle wasn't just winnable - it should have been won. Even with many, many errors... it was clear that Plot was the real destroyed of Azure City. No hole in walls from Elementals because of unreasonable mix of real and DND physics, and ignoring the strength of walls? That alone could spell win. Even with the stupidity displayed... this battle should have been won, and was taken away on several turns by sheer Power of Plot. A costly victory, yet - but a victory still. With more intelligence, it would have been an absolutely crushing victory.

[Werbaer]

Several people suggested to abandom the throne room, and ignore Xycon - either because Soon was strong enough to handle Xycon, or because losing the gate wouldn't be an immediate thread.

But who know this? Who knows in advance how strong Soon is, and whether Xycon will fight efficient or stupid against him, and who would win?
And who knows exactly what's Xycon's goal. And who knows what will happen when a gate is opend instead of destroyed?

Not trying to stop Xycon at all means could be the end of the world, as far as they know.

[Elemental_Elf]

The only real way to have made the battle win-able would have been to kill Miko. If she were dead, then Xykon and Redcloak would have been killed in the throne room, which means the Azurites would really only have to defend the city from a mass of goblinoids who (now) have no leader. :smallfrown:

[SoC175]

Plan:
1 force the nobles into line by confiscation their samurai. I don't think the samurai would follow that order, otherwise they would not have left with the nobles in the first place. They seem to serve the nobles rather than the ruler of AC

Fine have the ghost of soon talk to her and explain things, she will trust him right? Assuming he's free to manifest whenever he pleases and not only when a serious threat has entered the throne room.

Still my point about burning the corpses was a good one I think. I think that without seeing that this was getting him his stairway, the DK would have used a different tactic to get in.

And seriously where was Shojo's dad? Who says that any mid-to-high-level paladin can simply become such a positive energy spirit? The freshly slaughtered SG paladin were there because they died just no defending the throne room so shortly before Soon himself manifested, but who says that they could simply bind any paladin that ever died in service of the SG in such a way? If they could, they wouldn't have needed the living SG paladins there, they could have let them fight on the battlefield and only go there after dying.

[King of Nowhere]

It's not that easy to burn a human body. We are made of 70% by water, you know. There's no reason to suppose hobgoblins are much different.

And removing the mark from Belkar was a terrible risk. Belkar could have realized that killing Azurites was much more fun than killing hobbos. Remember, he sided with Haley against Tsukiko for very frivolous reasons, and yet when Haley pointed out that Xykon could have removed the mark Belkar wanted to get back with the bad guys. Without the mark, he was less trustworthy than Tsukiko (well, maybe not less, but not much more either way).

Also, it is easy to make plans that should theorically work, here knowing exactly how the enemy deployed their forces. Hinjo's plan would work on theory: deploy the troops on the walls to repel the enemies, have the paladins in the throne room to face Xykon and eventually defeat him as ghost marthyrs, if the wall falls retreat into the castle, where there are the mid level casters to form a strong force to be kept in reserve. Without knowing what would happen in the battle, this plan sounds no less reasonable than any proposed here.
We say he may have foreseen the guys left out of prison would have betrayed, then we propose that he risks civil war by forcing the nobles (something whcih he hadn't the legal autority to do). He knew Tsukiko was in prison for "unnatural acts of wizardry", how was he supposed to know she was a necrophiliac that would fall for Xykon immediately?

The best of the battle plans only hold until the first arrow is fired.

EDIT: the titanium elementals destroied the walls with their fists after landing, they didn't destroied them at the impact - otherwise, they woudln't have been different from catapult boulders. There are no physical laws broken. And even from a gaming point of view, I think those elementals had enough strengtrh to overcome the wall's hardness and damage it - thus the breaches.
EDIT 2: Just because we assume Shojo's father was a paladin (it isn't stated anywhere, as far as I recall, even if it is a reasonable assumption), it don't mean he was epic, or even mid level. For all we know, he may have been an high level aristocrat like shojo.

[blackjack217]

EDIT 2: Just because we assume Shojo's father was a paladin (it isn't stated anywhere, as far as I recall, even if it is a reasonable assumption), it don't mean he was epic, or even mid level. For all we know, he may have been an high level aristocrat like shojo.
Soon said that Shojo's father was a "worthy successor" and considering soon it is extremely unlikely that he would chose anything other than a paladin (see only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable) and a high level one at that.

[Grendus]

Was the city saveable? Probably not, considering that Redcloak was basically ignoring most of the rules of both real life and the game. The titanium elementals were ridiculously overpowered, but not more overpowered than being able to force-march your soldiers and immediately siege the city. The catapults would have had troubles without a road (which they almost certainly wouldn't have had, given that it was between a city of hobgoblins and paladins), so they would have either struggled to keep the things together or would have disassembled them and rebuilt them on site (granted, they might have managed it with some arcane casters using all their spell slots on mending, but that would have cost them all their arcane casters). They also had several very powerful monsters on their side (the Xykon lookalikes) which could easily have turned the battle without some deus ex machinas.

However, there were some things that the defenders could have done better. Putting all the paladins in the tower as martyrs actually makes no sense, seeing as they would have returned to the tower whether they died defending the gate or the city. In fact, putting all of them together to face Xykon and his symbol of insanity basically wasted them. They would have been much more useful against the hobgoblins, and if you needed them as martyrs they could always make some heroic stand on the battlefield. They'd still end up martyrs, but they'd take scores of hobgoblins with them.

They should have put a Mark of Justice on all the prisoners they used for their defenses, set to go off if they willingly committed an act of treason. Tsukiko was very powerful when she turned on them, but she would be far less powerful with one of her primary spellcasting stats reduced by 6 points - you could actually probably lock her out of either her cleric or wizard spells with the curse.

The Cleric that Redcloak faced shouldn't have been defending the tower. A 15th or so level cleric could do some real damage against the hobgoblin hoard. Likewise, we never see Hinjo's wizard (the one V was copying spells from) in the battle. It's possible they went with the nobles, but I would imagine that Azure City would have at least a few medium to high level wizards on staff.

The city should have had back up siege weapon parts for basic repairs. Wooden catapults and ballistas rot, warp, and suffer from other damage, so they should have not only had spare parts but should have had experts on hand to quickly replace them. They also should have had magical ammunition on hand; alchemical fire, acid, or even just flasks of oil with fuses could have taken down large numbers of hobgoblins per shot.

If V or Elan had Grease, they could have slicked the breaches. Hobgoblins only have a dex of 13 and no ranks in Balance, so they would have been tripping all over themselves. Against dozens or hundreds of goblins, that adds up very quickly in terms of power, all for a level 1 spell. The more grease, the more you can slow the hobgoblin advance, the more time your archers have to pick them off. There's also a 2nd level spell, Incendiary Slime, that's like Grease but with some damage. Both would have inflicted some serious chaos on the invading army, for fairly low level spells.



Now, for the OOTS:

Belkar was at his most useful. He took down dozens of hobbos, which is way more than anyone could expect considering he had the Mark of Justice. He also took out the Eye of Fear and Flame and used it to kill things inside the city limits. So he's off the hook for suggestions.

Durkon's failure is the most noticeable. Notably, he didn't do much the entire battle except buff Roy before he attacked Xykon and crushing the hecuva. While Xykon is much more powerful than he was, his spells would have been the most effective against both Xykon and his flying mount. Even with Roy's +5 Greatsword (with, I'm guessing, Undead Bane though it's never explicitly stated), Durkon would have been in a better position to blast the dragon and drive off Xykon. Searing Light, for example, would have done 10d6 if you succeeded in a ranged touch attack. Of course, with 27-ish d12 hit dice (holy meat shield batman) that would at best make Xykon go "ouch", but he could almost certainly have fried the dragon outright.

I think people undervalue Roy's accomplishments in the battle. While he didn't kill Xykon or a hoard of enemies, he did several very important things. He killed the zombie dragon, he killed the Death Knight, and he irritated Xykon enough that he ignored the plan and instead charged into the Sapphire throne room and faced the only character on the battlefield strong enough to threaten him - the ghost martyr of Soon Kim. Compared to Redcloak's plan of him slaughtering some of the reserve squads and reanimating them, that's about an order of magnitude on the list of good results. His only failing was not having a backup plan to land - someone get that man a Ring of Feather Falling.

V, likewise, was actually probably at her most useful. Between the scrolls of dismissal, buffing the soldiers to hold the gap, and disintegrating the Death Knight's mount, she actually held her own. Some people have pointed out that V would have been more useful with the rest of the OOTS, but I disagree. Until the hobgoblins charged, V and a single squad held the largest breech. I would fault her for not having Grease, but that's from one of her barred schools. So she actually did ok.

Elan... well, Elan is Elan. He should have taken 10 to buff the soldiers, he should have been put near a large squad during heavy combat and buffed them with his bard song (+2 morale bonus adds up when dozens or even scores of troops gets it). It would be nice if he had had Grease, but if he didn't know it prior to the battle then I won't hold it against him. We can't all have the spell range of the tier 1 classes.

Haley likewise did her best. Rogues aren't really designed for mass combat. About the only thing she could have done would be to have snuck through the hobgoblin lines and tried to assassinate Redcloak, but since he was protected by the MitD and a Hecuva, in addition to being a level 15 or so himself (according to the class and level geekery theory), it wouldn't have been a very even fight unless she got a crit right out of the box on her sneak attack. She did the best she could, can't fault her for not being as effective as the tier 1 classes.



All in all, I think the OOTS actually were very useful. The battle only went in their favor as long as it did because Redcloak was an jerk to his troops and wasted them attacking fortified positions instead of going after the breeches. If we remove Redcloak's physics violations, I'd say it was an even shot (unless Xykon had stuck to the plan, then I'd give it 5%). The hobgoblins would have needed a day of rest after a force march or they would have suffered from a morale penalty, the catapults would have needed a day or two to be constructed, and the titanium elementals just seem wrong, even if some argue that rock elementals would have done the same thing. Combine that with the city defenses having been repaired (if the goblins took time to rebuild or repair their catapults, the city would have had time too) and being used with chemical weapons, and it would have come down to how long it took for Redcloak to realize he was being racist and how many hobgoblins they could take down before that time.

But I'm no strategist. The odds were stacked against them, but they did the best they could.

[blackjack217]

redcloak was 15th level see 15d6 points of whirling death for humans

[Grendus]

At least 15th level. Blade barrier maxes out at 15d6, if an epic cleric cast it it would still only be 15d6.

[King of Nowhere]

Soon said that Shojo's father was a "worthy successor" and considering soon it is extremely unlikely that he would chose anything other than a paladin (see only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable) and a high level one at that.
Actually, I don't see any mention of "worthy successor" in the comic. At most, Soon said that the command of the city and of the sapphire guard "be held in the same capable hands".
Capable implies someone who knows how to rule, not necessary a high level paladin. I concede that, given what we know of soon, he was unlikely to leave the city to someone different from a paladin (not something assured, he may as well have chosen a lawful good aristocrat who followed the paladin's code).
Still, being a good ruler has nothing to do with having powerful combat abilities. A high level paladin may as well be a bad ruler and take the wrong decisions. In fact, probably soon did just that many times.
And last, even accepting the idea that shojo's father was a high level paladin, 13 level is high level in his own rigth, but would do very little to Xykon. So it may even be possible that Shojo's father was a high level paladin ghost marthyr, but not high level enough to turn the battle and was therefore killed with the rest.
By the way, we're not even sure if all the paladins become ghost marthyrs. Maybe only those who dies in specific conditions do. If that would be the case, it may even be possible that Shojo's father was an epic paladin but died in a way that avoided him becoming a ghost marthy.
In the end, the idea that he must be an epic paladin and should have turned the battle really don't hold. Too much careless assumption.

[Souhiro]

With the privilege of Ultra-Insight, I would have chloroformed all the paladins, and withdraw from the city; since Xykon was bound to survive this: Since the oracle said: "The lich known as Xykon will be at less than 100 feet from Girard's Gate" and Xykon nor Redcloak gives a damn from the life of a hundred Hobbos (Well, RedCloack changed his mind in the siegue, but he initially was eager to have them all killed in battle)

But if Oracle's prophecies can be avoided, I would have
- Get somebody to cast Atonement on Miko. She was able to defeat RedCloack (She did, in fact, defeat him some strips before)
- Buy a few scrolls of AntiMagic Field, and cast it where Xykon is, and have TONS of paladins beat him, and a few dogs EAT him: In a antimagic field, Xykon is just another skeleton. AND he can be smitted!
- Put Belkar on any breach. He is capable of guarding it.



And I'm with Grendus: Redcloack ignored a lot rules from life and game. Titanium Elementals was an example: Jokes >>> Plot > Rules > Reality. But since Jokes is WAY over Plot and Rules, I would have the whole city desserted, and have Elan and Belkar to defeat by themselves the whole goblin army, since they are the source of most jokes. Surekly, they would have succeded

[Kish]

- Get somebody to cast Atonement on Miko.

What is it with people thinking the Atonement spell is an "ex-paladin to paladin" button?

[Souhiro]

Well, In my games, Atonement IS a ritual that brings the penitent to the very presence of his patron god. His companions are welcomed (So they won't be bored) and he must defend their actions and plea for mercy. The companions can speak for him.

I have put an evil god and a deceased foe that will speak against the defendant. And finally, the god itself ask what will the character do to gain the atonement (So, he must made an oath!) No dices are thrown during all the process.

So the Atonement is theway back, but it isn't an easy way.


A Druid who revered the spirit of civilization for a very-much-needed refresh of spells got himself fallen from druidhood; so he promised not sleep in a city unless it is needed for the greater good (Pity of him if he got himself in prison) But since his defense was quite good, his sin was for the sake of a companion, and the Oath was quite strong, he re-gained nature's favor.

Diferent was the paladin: He wasn't the most holy, nor the most good of the group; but he drugged and raped (Yes, raped) the female eidolon of the summoner. He was quite surprised when he discovered that he had fallen from paladinhood. And then, happily said that he will have someone cast atonement. When I told him that he would need to surprise and please the god he had offended, he "suicided" his PC (I.E. cast himself unarmed, naked and without strategy into a castle taken by ogres... and he took a FULL session to do!)


Atonement isn't a "Paladinhood in a Can" but I think that having Miko back, and giving her a good use would have been, at least, significant.


----

Sorry for my awful grammar. I'm an evil spaniard from the vile Spain

[Kish]

Well, In my games,

Your house rules aside, I thought we were discussing something that happened in OotS?

Also, the "I'm an evil Spaniard from the vile Spain" thing stopped being funny after you'd done it a certain number of times, just so you know. (That number being 0.)

[slayerx]

Your house rules aside, I thought we were discussing something that happened in OotS?

Still, atonement requires that the subject be truly repentant for their sins... which Miko clearly was not as she was still under the delusion that she was right on some level

Which is why it would be such a horrible idea to put her back on the battlefield... 10 to 1 states that she would likely attack the order as she is so convinced that they are evil and will betray the saphire guard at the right opportunity

[137beth]

I think that in #414, they should have told Kabuto that "Xykon is after an artifact that would allow him to rule the universe! The problem is that we don't have it, so we can't give it to him, and we can't use it against him." It may have reduced the dissent caused by Kabuto's argument (granted, Kabuto himself and his servants would still have betrayed Hinjo, but others who were convinced by his argument may have fought.) Also, they should have killed Miko earlier. That would have solved everything. Putting her back on the battlefield would NOT have helped. In fact, she DID get back in the fight. And that was the reason Xykon was not destroyed.

[Souhiro]

Having her back into the fight was the cause for Redcloak victory. Fact.

But that was because she wasn't informed at all. Very mucho like Tarkin in the recent strip. A truly repent ant atoned Miko would have turned the odds upside down: Redcloack is Xykon's Number two, and Miko can still defeat him, we have seen her doing it. And since a repent and atoned Miko won't try to do stupid things, like destroy the shappire, Soon would have indeed destroyed Xykon. Then it just would need to find the Soul-Hidey-Thing and cast it and cast Dissintegrate on it a ton of times.


So, the battle could have been won, just by convincing Miko that pride is a sin.

-----------
Sorry if you can't understand everything. And sorry if this make you laught when you must stay silent: Yo hablo español

[137beth]

Uh, who's going to atone her? She already said she doesn't trust Hinjo (she attacked him) or shojo, or anyone else in azure city for that matter. The "repent ant atoned Miko" would not happen. Hinjo even gave her a chance after she killed Shojo, but she decided to attack Hinjo instead.

[derfenrirwolv]

Atonement doesn't work unless the person repents what it was that they did. Miko doesn't, so that's out of the question even IF miko's alignment didn't slide out of LG then there's no helping her with a spell.

Still, she's a 17ish level fighter without bonus feats. She could have been marked of justiced and left to guard the priest in the courtyard.

[King of Nowhere]

The point was, they had a much worse situation that they tougth in the beginning.
Redcloak said "We have greater numbers and tougher soldiers, but they have massive fortifications and more mid and low level casters", general chang reached the same conclusions and said it was "an even figth".
Seems reasonable, but it would have been more accurate a different statement:
"they have us outnumbered 3 to 1, have an epic lich sorcerer and a 15+ level cleric with a major artifact on their side when we have no one over level 13 (Soon can't leave the throne room and therefore don't count), but we have massive fortifications that they can easily take down with magic they have.
Our troops are suffering from severe morale deficiency, and are likely to break under strain. Most of our mid and high level forces cannot be trusted, and are lilkely to either leave the city or betray us. The loyalty of our very troops in under question, after their ruòer has been misteriously assassinated yesterday and the current leader is suspected.
Last, many nobles may ally with Xykon if they knew of the gate thing.
Our only chance of victory is that Xykon goes in the throne room and gets killed by soon before he realizes that he can just leave the room and no one is going to follow him, while the hobbo troops attaks the walls without a strategy and get slaugthered."

Which is what almost happened, by the way...

[Swordpriest]

Odd to think that killing Miko would have defeated Xykon and Redcloak, and resulted in an overall victory for Team Azure. :smallamused:

[pendell]

@Swordpriest: How so? The goblins still captured the city. If Xykon and Redcloak were both killed in the throne room, the hobgoblins simply wall the place off and continue to found Gobbotopia under a new leader.

Miko's actions didn't prevent the hobgoblins from overrunning the breach in the north wall or breaking into the keep with ninja help. Once these things are done, the city is fated to suffer hobgoblin occupation regardless of whether the castle blows up or not.

Of course, getting Xykon's phylactery back as well as the Crimson Mantle will present a problem. Soon can't destroy the phylactery but can smack Xykon whenever he regenerates and prevent anyone else from retrieving those items. So it's stalemate in the keep while the goblins have the entire rest of the city to themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rewinn]

.... If you keep your LEADER in because of his combat abilities....
AC's plans were devised when Shojo was still alive, when it made complete sense to put Hinjo in charge of defending the curtain wall.

"Let the boy earn his spurs. I desire, if it be God's will, that the day be his, and that the honour of it remain to him and to those whom I have appointed to support him." -- King Edward III, speaking of his son The Black Prince, at Crecy (http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/june/15.htm).

Then Shojo died; Hinjo had very little time to make changes ...:miko: AND his most powerful warrior was imprisoned ... AND there weren't really any decisions he could have made mid-combat that would have made any difference. All he could have done in defense of the gate was to become an insignificant addition to the ranks of ghost-martyrs.


...With more intelligence, it would have been an absolutely crushing victory.
:redcloak: They faced a surprise attack with numerous unpredictable innovations, a brilliant general with divine aid PLUS ninjas. They did well to survive.

===EDITTED===

The goblins still captured the city. If Xykon and Redcloak were both killed in the throne room, the hobgoblins simply wall the place off and continue to found Gobbotopia under a new leader.
And THAT is a victory for the Sapphire Guard (albeit a nasty one). Remember, the city is there to protect the Gate, not the other way around.

[137beth]

@Swordpriest: How so? The goblins still captured the city. If Xykon and Redcloak were both killed in the throne room, the hobgoblins simply wall the place off and continue to found Gobbotopia under a new leader.

Miko's actions didn't prevent the hobgoblins from overrunning the breach in the north wall or breaking into the keep with ninja help. Once these things are done, the city is fated to suffer hobgoblin occupation regardless of whether the castle blows up or not.

Of course, getting Xykon's phylactery back as well as the Crimson Mantle will present a problem. Soon can't destroy the phylactery but can smack Xykon whenever he regenerates and prevent anyone else from retrieving those items. So it's stalemate in the keep while the goblins have the entire rest of the city to themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
I'm not quite sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Soon couldn't destroy the phlactery. You also seem to be missing the possibility that the Hobgoblins flee when Xykon/RC are killed. That would also boost the morale of the azurites. Even if they DO capture the city, a lot of them will likely wander into the throneroom before they figure out that it's certain death. Which makes them that much weaker when the remaining Azurites return.

[Kish]

I'm not quite sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Soon couldn't destroy the phlactery.
Probably from Soon telling Xykon that he couldn't destroy the phylactery himself.

[SoC175]

Even if they DO capture the city, a lot of them will likely wander into the throneroom before they figure out that it's certain death. Which makes them that much weaker when the remaining Azurites return. A lot? 10? Let's be generous and make it 50 before they notice that none ever leave the room. That's 50 out of several thousand.


Putting all the paladins in the tower as martyrs actually makes no sense, seeing as they would have returned to the tower whether they died defending the gate or the city. There was Soon and the recently deceased at the very front steps of the saphire, none other paladins from the long history of the SG. I would assume it's more likely that only Soon is able to manifest at the tower and has the ability to call upon the recently deceased whose corpses are present. That would also explain why Shojo's dad wasn't there, regardless whether he was a paladin or not.

[HalfTangible]

There's one line of thinking everyone seems to have overlooked: that the fight was not a loss.

Ok, yes, Azure City was taken, but that wasn't the point of the battle. The point was to prevent Xykon from taking the gate. It's the reason all their strongest paladins were in the throne room instead of on the front lines. It's the reason Haley and the order left after the tower was destroyed. It was, in fact, the whole reason the war started in the first place: because they couldn't negotiate the release of the macguffin, partly because it couldn't be moved and partly because it could end the world if put in Xykon and Redcloak's hands.

Had they committed their strongest warriors to the front lines, Xykon would have taken the tower, zombified everyone inside, summoned a few monsters for flavor and BOOM, second front, just as redcloak put it. Granted, Xykon would have done it so he could rub his power in somebody's face.

Instead, they very nearly managed to kill Xykon and Redcloak - something accomplishable in large part because the paladins in the throne room were ghosts-paladins capable of becoming loyal ghosts for to take away half of Xykon's firepower, and high level enough to be able to take the fire/lightning the half of the time it did work.

Furthermore, while Miko was the one who actually destroyed the gate, she was able to in large part because Team Evil was winning. Had they not, Redcloak wouldn't have summoned his chlorine elemental in the courtyard, and Tsukiko wouldn't have been in the courtyard to have it sicked on her, which then led to her shout spell shattering part of the tower and releasing Miko.

[NegativeFifteen]

My one thought? Put O-CHUL on the front lines. Seriously, the man was lucky enough to survive TWO fights with Xykon and live, i imagine he would probably apply that luck to a couple hundred hobgoblin asses.

[King of Nowhere]

There's one line of thinking everyone seems to have overlooked: that the fight was not a loss.

Ok, yes, Azure City was taken, but that wasn't the point of the battle.

You try saying that to Hinjo, Daigo, Kazumi, or the azurite population. With Hinjo the paladin code may save you, but with the other I wouldn't bet on you walking away on your legs...

Even from the "big picture" point of view, saving the city was still a secondary objective. In fact, knowing what happened, they should have destroied the gate when they learned of the incoming army, so they wouldn't have had a reason to attack anymore.
Redcloak would have wanted to take the city anyway, but Xykon may have prevented it.

By the way, that gave me another idea: evacuate the city, put an explosive rune (or some other kind of booby trap, just in case they recognize the explosive runes and avoid triggering them) on the sapphire. Xykon would have wandered in, started the ritual (it takes weeks, so no hurry), sooner or later he would have read the script. The explosion would trigger the much bigger explosion of the gate.
Goodbye Xykon, goodbye redcloak, goodbye to a good part of the hobbo army. At this point, the hobbo army is without its main leaders, and without food (of course you bring most the food with you when you evacuate the city, even if in the haste of it you may leave something behind) they would be forced to leave the city anyway.
Imo it is a brilliant plan and would defeat the villains and decimate the hobbos without costing the life of a single azurite, but I'm sure a dozen people here will see flaws...

[blackjack217]

like say weakening the fabric of reality? plus the paladin code woulds probably not allow it, not to mention the oath to defend the gate

[StreetPizza]

Why not just flood the feild infront of the city with magma? PERFECT PLAN!

This. Oh, for the love of Armok, this.

In all seriousness, I think, given the massive advantage an epic level Sorcerer gives the besieging forces, the best option would be probably to abandon the city and, like some people in this thread have recommended, rig the gate to explode in Xykon's face somehow.

[Ricky S]

I am pretty sure that Xykon being the epic spell caster that he is will be able to stop any sort of giant explosive rune. He also has red cloak with him who is a stupidly high level as well.

Also the problem with destroying the gate is that it would then be destroyed. I am sure that before Xykon came along there were many attempts to destroy the gate but they were all defended until now. The idea for the gates was a good one but surely when they were making them they realised that one day they would all be destroyed thus unleashing the snarl back onto the world and universe

[137beth]

The explosive runes thing is dangerous--would if Xykon dispels it? Then he completely wins. Instead, simply rig it to explode automatically whenever a Lich-sorcerer with at least 21 class levels enters...

[StreetPizza]

Oo, right. Forgot about the whole "his magic > our magic" thing. Assuming he or Redcloak (probably Redcloak) prepare for a booby-trapped gate or maybe even just cast a few Detect and Dispel Magics, we may have just handed the gate over to them without a fight.

From there, assuming the besiegers won't fall for a booby trapped gate, I would revise my plan to "retreat and maybe blow up the gate before Xykon gets his hands on it" (the closer he is to the epicenter, the better). At the least, it would have the same outcome as the battle in the story, but with far fewer Azure City casualties.

Of course, this is not considering how Miko kinda screwed everything up by taking the gate out after it was necessary.

[Cizak]

Durkon's failure is the most noticeable. Notably, he didn't do much the entire battle except buff Roy before he attacked Xykon and crushing the hecuva.

It's not shown in the online version, but he did help the archers fry the flying zombies.

[Souhiro]

You know, It is something about the paladin code. They WON'T flee from the city, not without a fight.

I think... Azure city could be saved by having Kamina at your side. :) Just a few words, and the morale is skyrocketed.

[Irbis]

The point was, they had a much worse situation that they tougth in the beginning.
Redcloak said "We have greater numbers and tougher soldiers, but they have massive fortifications and more mid and low level casters", general chang reached the same conclusions and said it was "an even figth".
Seems reasonable, but it would have been more accurate a different statement:
"they have us outnumbered 3 to 1, have an epic lich sorcerer and a 15+ level cleric with a major artifact on their side when we have no one over level 13 (Soon can't leave the throne room and therefore don't count), but we have massive fortifications that they can easily take down with magic they have.
Our troops are suffering from severe morale deficiency, and are likely to break under strain. Most of our mid and high level forces cannot be trusted, and are lilkely to either leave the city or betray us. The loyalty of our very troops in under question, after their ruòer has been misteriously assassinated yesterday and the current leader is suspected.
Last, many nobles may ally with Xykon if they knew of the gate thing.
Our only chance of victory is that Xykon goes in the throne room and gets killed by soon before he realizes that he can just leave the room and no one is going to follow him, while the hobbo troops attaks the walls without a strategy and get slaugthered."

This. So much this.


Odd to think that killing Miko would have defeated Xykon and Redcloak, and resulted in an overall victory for Team Azure. :smallamused:

We discussed this in the other thread and Dead Miko = one intact gate belonging to Xykon.


Probably from Soon telling Xykon that he couldn't destroy the phylactery himself.

Owned :smalltongue:

And I must say the point about Reddy forcing Tsu to cast Shout was great. I haven't noticed this before. He literally pissed away almost sure victory!

[pendell]

You know, It is something about the paladin code. They WON'T flee from the city, not without a fight.

I think... Azure city could be saved by having Kamina at your side. :) Just a few words, and the morale is skyrocketed.

Kamina from Gurren Lagann? Yeah, that's the ticket. Roy and co. just need more FIGHTING SPIRIT!!! If they've got enough of it they can stop the moon from falling!

For those of you who don't get it ... it's an anime that makes Dragonball Z look realistic. And yes, they do stop the moon falling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Draconi Redfir]

i still think blindfolding Miko, takeing her out of the city and to the edge of the hobgoblin army, giveing her all her gear back and some health potions, maby a cleric freind to keep her healed, and telling her that killing the hobbos would redeim her would make a huge impact. might even reduce the 3 to 1 problem to 2 to 1.

[King of Nowhere]

i still think blindfolding Miko, takeing her out of the city and to the edge of the hobgoblin army, giveing her all her gear back and some health potions, maby a cleric freind to keep her healed, and telling her that killing the hobbos would redeim her would make a huge impact. might even reduce the 3 to 1 problem to 2 to 1.
I think you're higly overstimnating the impact she could have had. She kills a couple dozen goblis, Xykon shows up, she's dead two rounds later.
Even if Xykon find more amusing looking than intervening, Redcloak would intervene. Sure, last time she won, but last time she still got to add her cha mdifier tto her saving throws, something that really matters when figthing a cleric. Plus, last time she could directly attack redcloak, this time she could not because there would a bajillion hobbos in the way, while redcloak could still use ranged spells.
So, in the end, she could kill a hundred hobbos and burn a couple of high level spells from redcloak.
That, of course, assuming she don't just turn back and try to hunt the oots

[whitelaughter]

the real problem with releasing Miko is that she killed 'the crazy guy with the cat'.
Morale was already low due to his death; having Miko out and about would have destroyed Hinjo's remaining support - the army would have bolted earlier.
Further, if she - the most powerful Paladin in the Sapphire Guard - gets killed at the start of the fight, then morale sinks even lower as the army realises how hopeless the fight is.
Combine those two influences, and the troops might flee before the hobbos reach the wall.

[Cerlis]

would have been nice if Durkon had prepared Stone form or Stone Wall..


.....

you know....


For the giant hole in the wall....


seriously...i havent played DnD in a while but i want to play a caster cus those Wall spells truely alter the battlefield like no other. Wall of fire, wall of stone, wall of thorns, Wall of force (dang it V!)

[Maxios]

Listen, they had to have fully planned out their strategy. Look at the Battle of Thermanopole, 300 soldiers versus a million persian warriors. And the 300 won.

I would've found a way to make Miko fight in the battle, and have V cast feather fall on Roy or something before jumping on Xykon's zombie dragon.

[Kish]

Look at the Battle of Thermanopole, 300 soldiers versus a million persian warriors. And the 300 won.
You might want to adjust your history learned from history books/history learned from movies ratio.

[Maxios]

Well in the history books it may have been half a million or at least twenty thousand. But I know they were really out numbered.

[Cerlis]

Well in the history books it may have been half a million or at least twenty thousand. But I know they were really out numbered.

Problem is it was a small amount of well trained men shoulder to shoulder in a narrow pass. Not a small amount of well trained men spread out so few where even near each other over an entire wall of a city.

Further more Spartans didnt have to deal with the undead or magic. One well placed fireball and the persians woulda won easily.

[Souhiro]

Listen, they had to have fully planned out their strategy. Look at the Battle of Thermanopole, 300 soldiers versus a million persian warriors. And the 300 won.

You know... Spartans really LOST that battle since they were vanquished, no survivors. But they managed to accomplish their mission: To make time, enought time to create a HUGE greek army.

Spartans werent just 300, but 300 "Senior" soldiers, and every soldier had a few slaves with them, altough that don't change the fact they were outnumbered.


So, I think that the drama rules made that battle was lost from the begining. And Redcloack... well, titanium elementals isn't that bad (he could have summoned earth elementals instead for the same efect, but that won't have been a joke) but his troops were WAY too Zealot. NOBODY would take part in a strategy which involves killing TONS of soldiers in front a breach, and use the corpses of your companions, your people, just as a ladder. Nobody, Goblin or not, would take part on if!

If Redcloack side had to cope with psyche of the soldiers, like the Azurites had to do, he would had TONS of dessertors. He also didn't have anybody who tryes to seize his power (And remember, we're talking about EVIL Goblins and Hobgoblins. They have a treachery nature)


Perhaps the way to win the battle was ELAN.

Alter Self -> Hobgoblin.
Diplomacy-Charisma-whatever. "Hey, Why are we letting Redcloack slaughter us? I knew this guy (points to any hobbo corpse) and he only will come back as a zombie! I don't want this for me, nor for nobody! I defect and you should do it too!"
When a few rows defects, the rest of the army will follow them.

The battle is won.
By the bard.

[hamishspence]

We discussed this in the other thread and Dead Miko = one intact gate belonging to Xykon.

Was that the consensus? The impression I got was that it was still highly debatable.

Could Soon have kept the hobgoblins from regaining Redcloak's body and the phylactery until good guys showed up?The impression I got was: Quite possibly.

There was also a case made that if Redcloak and Xykon had fought even slightly more optimally (with the resources they went into the throne room with) Soon would have been toast.

This is harder to refute- since we don't know exactly how powerful or well protected Soon was at the time.

[pendell]

You know... Spartans really LOST that battle since they were vanquished, no survivors. But they managed to accomplish their mission: To make time, enought time to create a HUGE greek army.


QFT. The Spartans made a gallant stand but in the end the Persians won and massacred them for all save one man who left before the battle started.

The Persians forced the pass and continued their invasion of Greece. The sacrifice of the Spartans was not in vain, however, as IIRC they bought time for the Greeks to continue mustering their forces; this contributed to eventual Greek victory at Salamis and Plataea.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[snikrept]

Why not just flood the feild infront of the city with magma? PERFECT PLAN!

Dwarf Fortress FTW

[137beth]

Spartans: there was actually an additional force of ~1000 others. They all fled before the persians reached them, which made it easier for the persians to flank the remaining spartans.

Magma: the walls of Azure city are not fire proof, and Xykon/Redcloak probably have protection from fire.

[Gray Mage]

Magma: the walls of Azure city are not fire proof, and Xykon/Redcloak probably have protection from fire.

Xykon does. He wasn't hurt by his own meteor swarm when darth V was fighting him.

Now I'd like to ask what do you think would happen if RedCloak wasn't in the throne room?

[137beth]

If redcloak wasn't in the thronerooom, Xykon would have lost his body, but re-spawned OUTSIDE of the castle.

[Gray Mage]

If redcloak wasn't in the thronerooom, Xykon would have lost his body, but re-spawned OUTSIDE of the castle.

Yes, but it'd have cost time. Also RC would have run and possibly left the army behind.

[slayerx]

Yes, but it'd have cost time. Also RC would have run and possibly left the army behind.

not at all, the hobgoblins were winning that battle... even if Xykon was destoryed by the ghost they still would have won in the end. Plus RC would not abandon his people

[Gray Mage]

not at all, the hobgoblins were winning that battle... even if Xykon was destoryed by the ghost they still would have won in the end. Plus RC would not abandon his people

I meant in the senario that I proposed a few days ago, where AC never used the catapults and Redcloak never got his epiphany. Sorry I wasn't clear before.

[slayerx]

I meant in the senario that I proposed a few days ago, where AC never used the catapults and Redcloak never got his epiphany. Sorry I wasn't clear before.

ah i see... though i don't think RC would abandon the battle
Even if he did not care about the hobgoblins, he still wanted revenge and would make sure to use every last one of the hobgoblins to do so.

However, when Xykon dies his soul would go back to RC... at that point it becomes Xykon's call. If he was too intimidated by soon and the ghosts, then he might say screw it and go for a different gate... but i don't think Xykon would do that and would rather push on and take another shot at the ghosts. Granted, one thing that Xykon would not be taking into account, since RC never made it to the throne room, is that Soon can see his what-cha-ma-call-it and thus would know how to destroy Xykon

[Swordpriest]

We discussed this in the other thread and Dead Miko = one intact gate belonging to Xykon.


Care to elaborate? Because that sounds like the exact opposite of what I see in the comic -- specifically, that Xykon and Redcloak are literally within half a second of being coup-de-graced/executed by Soon, when they're saved by a Diabolus ex machina courtesy of Miko. Otherwise known as "mile-thick plot armor because they need to survive to be defeated by Roy, rather than perishing here at the hands of an NPC, as they logically should have."

[137beth]

Care to elaborate? Because that sounds like the exact opposite of what I see in the comic -- specifically, that Xykon and Redcloak are literally half a second of being coup-de-graced/executed by Soon, when they're saved by a Diabolus ex machina courtesy of Miko. Otherwise known as "mile-thick plot armor because they need to survive to be defeated by Roy, rather than perishing here at the hands of an NPC, as they logically should have."

Yes. There was a "discussion" on the other thread about whether killing Miko would have helped or not. IIRC all but 1-2 people thought that killing Miko would have been one of the best moves Hinjo could make. The few other people seemed to have the impression in their mind that Miko saved the day.

[MReav]

I probably would have had a few wizards capable of casting greater invisibility running around with wands of fireball in order to sow confusion amid the enemy ranks. It's got huge range, and can easily kill a level one warrior.

I probably would have moved up a cleric capable of casting Blade Barrier when the hobgoblins were charging en masse. Heck a Wall of Fire would likely have done significant damage, and burned the ramp.

[137beth]

I probably would have had a few wizards capable of casting greater invisibility running around with wands of fireball in order to sow confusion amid the enemy ranks. It's got huge range, and can easily kill a level one warrior.

I probably would have moved up a cleric capable of casting Blade Barrier when the hobgoblins were charging en masse. Heck a Wall of Fire would likely have done significant damage, and burned the ramp.

Well, we finally have someone suggesting battle tactics that are at least a tiny bit reasonable.(no, letting Miko loose is not reasonable, it makes about as much since as Miko-logic).
The most prominent flaw in your strategy is that there may not even have been any good clerics who COULD cast blade barrier. A cleric would have to be 11th level to use BB, and there seemed to be almost no mid-level NPCs on Hinjo's side. Durkon maybe, but then again we don't know if he uses blade barrier. Wall of fire is more feasible, though remember that Redcloak ended up withdrawing from the breach anyways. Greater invisibility+wand of fireball would also have lowered goblin morale (how would you feel if fireballs started flying at you out of mid-air).

Good ideas overall (a lot better than "set Miko free").

[Tychris1]

Hmmmmm, well one thing I would do is dump **** from the top of the wall, large scale. I'm talking spikes, wooden stakes, and hot boiling oil. Hobgoblins aren't that strong and gravity seems to love things dropping on peoples heads, adding in the factor of dead bodys piling up you have a second wall made of corpses, metal spikes, cheap splintering stakes, boiling hot disfigured bodys wreathed with hot tar burns and maybe a torch thrown in for goodeasure to create a firewall only without magic. Then we cast a fire wall so it's THREE walls. Two of them firey, one of them made of stone. Oh and lastly if there is any breach in defences dispatch a squad of paladins in medium high levels then use vaarsivuses spells so they don't get decapitated by a death knight.

[slayerx]

I probably would have had a few wizards capable of casting greater invisibility running around with wands of fireball in order to sow confusion amid the enemy ranks. It's got huge range, and can easily kill a level one warrior.

I probably would have moved up a cleric capable of casting Blade Barrier when the hobgoblins were charging en masse. Heck a Wall of Fire would likely have done significant damage, and burned the ramp.
2 problems...
first, wall of fire and blade barrier are spells that only last minutes, and thus would not be too useful. frankly if you have access to Wall spells i might go with stone or iron and patch up the hole (though it might still be a weak spot)

Second, you are giving azure city access to resources they did not have... like being able to cast so many greater invisibilities and wands of fireball... Granted, if they actually revived Shojo's personal wizard he MIGHT have had the conjuration spells to patch up the breech. It might have also not hurt to try and ask the elves to quickly send aid in the form of mid-level conjurers; between sendings and teleportation, such aid is possible in just 24 hours... though whether or not the elves would respond in time is another question.

[Acero]

Spartans: there was actually an additional force of ~1000 others. They all fled before the persians reached them, which made it easier for the persians to flank the remaining spartans.



The Soildiers sent to guard that mountain pass fled. Head Spartan dude (forgetting name) told most of the army (10,000 or so) that came from other city states to leave and about half or so stayed. So it was closer to 5,000 soilders than just 300 Spartans.

[137beth]

Ack, yes, I meant to type 10000, not 1000:smallsmile:

Ty: well they did dump coconut oil, which scared the hobgoblins. But I suppose actually dangerous stuff would do more than scare the few who heard it was coconut oil.

[Mutant Sheep]

It might have also not hurt to try and ask the elves to quickly send aid in the form of mid-level conjurers; between sendings and teleportation, such aid is possible in just 24 hours... though whether or not the elves would respond in time is another question.
OR just contact V's teacher-guy. Same thing really, but since it was stated in-comic that the teacher guy would help with a dragon, he could just smash Xykon and Redcloak. The only reason V couldn't beat Xykon and Redcloak was because he lost his best evil-person and was acting dumb. His teacher-guy would know how to use magic, so it'd be like V, but better. I only read comic about 3 times though, and none of the prequels, so I don't know best.
:belkar: without the mark could have done more though, like, kill Redcloak with Haley or something. Blah.

[King of Nowhere]

We know nothing of Aarindarius, except that he's powerful. We surely have no evidence at all that he may be more powerful than Xykon.
Not that calling him would be bad. He would surely be a big bonus. The same for calling all the help that could be called. Probably some among the elves knew of th gates (they have a rift in their territory), so sending to them warning of a threath to a gate should get them moving.
By the way, if I were in charge of the military of a nation, I would stockpile scrolls of sending and teleport; instant comunication-transportation mixed with mid or high level adventurers used as commandos are a great avantage. But it appears azure city was lacking resources.

Or maybe they had rsources, but without shojo who knew how to coordiante all the stuff, many things were forgotten in the chaos of the pre-battle

[137beth]

Aarindarius could have helped the fight within the throneroom. first off, he could have killed Miko, so they'd pretty much already have won. If Soon has trouble with RC+Xykon, Aarindarius could have helped. Either way putting him in the throneroom would have been a near-certain win for Azure City.

[pendell]

Aarindarius could have helped the fight within the throneroom. first off, he could have killed Miko, so they'd pretty much already have won. If Soon has trouble with RC+Xykon, Aarindarius could have helped. Either way putting him in the throneroom would have been a near-certain win for Azure City.

Only if he had the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, as we do.

There's a lot of ways both parties would have fought the battle differently knowing what we do now, but any realistic 'what-if' scenario has to portray the actors using the knowledge they actually had at the time.

So Aarindarius could not have been sent in to kill Miko. He would not have known that Miko would even escape from jail. If he'd been deployed in the throne room with the rest of the sapphire guard, I doubt it would have availed anything other than to be slaughtered by an epic-level archlich, same as the rest of them.

If we're going to talk what-ifs --- if AC were ruled by someone like Tarquin who summarily slit Miko's throat rather than putting her in prison and hoping for her atonement, Miko would never have destroyed the gem.

For that matter, an evil mastermind could have put Kubota and company in his place, probably with blackmail, rather than allow half their military forces to sail away.

So maybe that's an answer: Maybe not have an actual evil mastermind commanding AC rather than a brave but naive paladin, but at least have someone who can think like one.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[137beth]

Only if he had the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, as we do.

There's a lot of ways both parties would have fought the battle differently knowing what we do now, but any realistic 'what-if' scenario has to portray the actors using the knowledge they actually had at the time.

So Aarindarius could not have been sent in to kill Miko. He would not have known that Miko would even escape from jail. If he'd been deployed in the throne room with the rest of the sapphire guard, I doubt it would have availed anything other than to be slaughtered by an epic-level archlich, same as the rest of them.

If we're going to talk what-ifs --- if AC were ruled by someone like Tarquin who summarily slit Miko's throat rather than putting her in prison and hoping for her atonement, Miko would never have destroyed the gem.

For that matter, an evil mastermind could have put Kubota and company in his place, probably with blackmail, rather than allow half their military forces to sail away.

So maybe that's an answer: Maybe not have an actual evil mastermind commanding AC rather than a brave but naive paladin, but at least have someone who can think like one.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I never said he was sent in specifically to kill Miko. Were he present, he would almost certainly be sent in to fight Xykon, even without hindsight. Once in the throneroom, he could either help Soon destroy Xykon, or zap Miko in the round before she destroyed the gate. Killing (or even disabling) Miko would have required ONE action, so its not like he would need to plan very far ahead of time. Once he is in the throneroom (which he would enter to fight RC+Xykon), its pretty easy to cast hold person on an insane ex-paladin who announces that she is going to destroy the gate, as Miko did.

[seraine]

I never said he was sent in specifically to kill Miko. Were he present, he would almost certainly be sent in to fight Xykon, even without hindsight. Once in the throneroom, he could either help Soon destroy Xykon, or zap Miko in the round before she destroyed the gate. Killing (or even disabling) Miko would have required ONE action, so its not like he would need to plan very far ahead of time. Once he is in the throneroom (which he would enter to fight RC+Xykon), its pretty easy to cast hold person on an insane ex-paladin who announces that she is going to destroy the gate, as Miko did.

Why wouldn't Xykon slaughter him just as Xykon got in the throne room?It took a while for the ghost martyrs to arrive,Xykon probably could have disabled him by then.Anyways,he probably wouldn't be able to do anything significant(kill Miko)before Xykon kills him.

[slayerx]

If anything, if Aarindarius was brought in to help azure city, he would most likely be sent to the front lines. As hinjo said, high level casters can alter the entire course of the battle... If he does not stop Xykon along with the order at the gate (he could have backed up Roy), he will be casting massive spells that will seriously help azure city. for instance, a few well placed conjuration spells might have done wonders for the breech which was key in the city's fall.

Placing Aarindarius in the throne room seems a tad wasteful... if the gobbo's took the city then it might not matter whether or not they managed to kill Xykon. Hell i might even argue that with a high level wizard presence in addition to soon, might have caused Xykon to keep a teleport handy for a quick escape instead of fighting until he drained his spells, or that it might have lead to Redcloak playing it a bit safer and not putting himself in danger; so we can't call his permanent death a certainty. I'd also add they had no way of being certain that Xykon would make a bee-line for the gate and might have decided to destroy the city first... Really placing Aarindarius on the frontlines not only means he might be able to engage Xykon before he even reaches the throne room, but it also means he can lend his power to the azurites and help make sure they keep the city aswell.

[seraine]

If anything, if Aarindarius was brought in to help azure city, he would most likely be sent to the front lines. As hinjo said, high level casters can alter the entire course of the battle... If he does not stop Xykon along with the order at the gate (he could have backed up Roy), he will be casting massive spells that will seriously help azure city. for instance, a few well placed conjuration spells might have done wonders for the breech which was key in the city's fall.

Placing Aarindarius in the throne room seems a tad wasteful... if the gobbo's took the city then it might not matter whether or not they managed to kill Xykon. Hell i might even argue that with a high level wizard presence in addition to soon, might have caused Xykon to keep a teleport handy for a quick escape instead of fighting until he drained his spells, or that it might have lead to Redcloak playing it a bit safer and not putting himself in danger; so we can't call his permanent death a certainty. I'd also add they had no way of being certain that Xykon would make a bee-line for the gate and might have decided to destroy the city first... Really placing Aarindarius on the frontlines not only means he might be able to engage Xykon before he even reaches the throne room, but it also means he can lend his power to the azurites and help make sure they keep the city aswell.

I agree.Even if he is close to as powerful as Xykon,which is unlikely,Xykon still would probably decide to kill Aarinarius because he would be easiest to kill,and when Redcloak comes...

So I agree with you that he would be best placed on the front lines.

[137beth]

I agree.Even if he is close to as powerful as Xykon,which is unlikely,Xykon still would probably decide to kill Aarinarius because he would be easiest to kill,and when Redcloak comes...

So I agree with you that he would be best placed on the front lines.

Um, Xykon AND RC nearly died from just Soon. So where are you getting the idea that they could have killed Aarinarius and Soon together? You seem to be making the assumption that Xykon could OHKO Aarinarius, which is unlikely.

[Swordpriest]

Well, regardless, even if he was nowhere near the throne room, Aarindarius would have been an immense help to the defense. I mean, look at what V alone managed to do -- add in an even more powerful mage, and you've more than doubled the effectiveness.

[blackjack217]

This is of course assuming that he was stupid enough to come alone. :smallbiggrin: Also where be Soon's armor?

[LtNOWIS]

Xykon does. He wasn't hurt by his own meteor swarm when darth V was fighting him.

Now I'd like to ask what do you think would happen if RedCloak wasn't in the throne room?
Well, he crafted a magic item that gave him this ability. He could have had it during the invasion, or it could have been one of the many item's he's crafted during the occupation period.

[whitelaughter]

Alter Self -> Hobgoblin.
Diplomacy-Charisma-whatever. "Hey, Why are we letting Redcloack slaughter us? I knew this guy (points to any hobbo corpse) and he only will come back as a zombie! I don't want this for me, nor for nobody! I defect and you should do it too!"
When a few rows defects, the rest of the army will follow them.

The battle is won.
By the bard.

Not bad...it wouldn't actually win the battle, because a) Elan almost always screws up, and b) the first deserters would be killed and animated as an example to the rest of the army, or eaten alive by the ghouls.
However, you've immediately prevented Elan's morale crushing speech to the AC troops, and any deserter killed in one less that the defenders need to kill, so it could make a significant difference.
Good work.

[Doomboy911]

Coat the walls with a reflective substance turn it into a mirror of opposition.
How do you fight a massive army, simple with a massive army.

[Kish]

Coat the walls with a reflective substance turn it into a mirror of opposition.
How do you fight a massive army, simple with a massive army.


Mirror of Opposition

This item resembles a normal mirror about 4 feet long and 3 feet wide. It can be hung or placed on a surface and then activated by speaking a command word. The same command word deactivates the mirror. If a creature sees its reflection in the mirror’s surface, an exact duplicate of that creature comes into being. This opposite immediately attacks the original. The duplicate has all the possessions and powers of its original (including magic). Upon the defeat or destruction of either the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear completely. The mirror functions up to four times per day.

Strong necromancy; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, clone; Price 92,000 gp; Weight 45 lb.
Setting aside the lack of any established spellcasters of level 15 or higher at the time, the fact that the only wizard established as being alive and anywhere near that level appears to have barred Necromancy, and the massive idiot ball Xykon and Redcloak would have to be carrying to not take any effective countermeasures ("launch a catapult stone and shatter the mirror" comes to mind immediately) if the wall of Azure City started producing hostile duplicate hobgoblins...


The mirror functions up to four times per day.

[Doomboy911]

Why not line the walls with tons of them than?

[Kish]

For the same reason they didn't defend Azure City by casting a single spell which atomized Xykon, Redcloak, and every hobgoblin in the army.

[Doomboy911]

Fine than fetch me some arcane pollution the effects should at the very least make things fun.

[Kirgoth]

My overall Strategy would be to preserve the majority of my forces while denying the enemy the capture of resources which would allow them to maintain a long term presence in the city and increase their forces (undead). I would provide a full complement of professional soldiers to aid the paladins in the defence of the citadel and gate but hold little hope for their victory against an epic threat. Once the fight is over, and the litch leaves as does the majority of the enemy due to lack of resources I would retake and rebuild the city.

Tactics
1) Delay the enemy
I would send a force to harrass and delay the enemy without getting bogged down in a full on fight, attack baggage trains, destroy bridges, set stakes in long grass the enemy have to walk through and such to give me more time.

2) Deny Resources
I would destroy any crops, bodies in graveyards, food supplies which cannot be moved, water supplies with poison and burn the city to the ground once evacuated. I would send forces to reinforce any groups defending the land supply routes with new orders to set them on stopping trade, after years fighting bandits such troops would be ideally suited to banditry. Once the ships have evacuated the civilians i would set many of them to piracy to blockade the city from the sea.

3) Defence
I would be faced with the paladins refusing to leave the citadel and the gate and so would provide a full complement of volunteer professional troops to help them concentrate the defence on the citadel, this would include the OOTS. I would hold little hope of their sucess against an epic threat but at least give them a fighting chance.

4) Withdrawl
I would have the fleet shuttle all civilians, militia, the first born sons & noble women of the nobility and those paladins i could convince to a nearby island, with as many supplies and treasure as they can move in the time available. Food and water I would have supplied by the fleet providing resupply if these were not available on the island. This is not to move the city but as a place of refuge so the population is protected. I myself would move here.

5) Evil Prisoners. Execute end of story.

6) Retake the city
Once the majority of the enemy have departed i would get the majority of my forces with any allies i could muster and retake the city. Of course if there is a huge weird broken hole in reality within it i wouldn't bother and would just find somewhere to build a new city.

[Doomboy911]

I like the beholder's idea but totally throw in some arcane pollution to wreck havoc on them.

I feel as though with us all working together (at least as strategists for the city) the story would be over faster.

[Kondziu]

I would provide a full complement of professional soldiers to aid the paladins in the defence of the citadel and gate but hold little hope for their victory against an epic threat.
You do realise that the fight was ultimately not for the city, but for Soon's Gate? :smallconfused:

[King of Nowhere]

That's the reason I suggested similar ideas, with the inclusion of booby-trapping the gate to avoid Xykon using it (and maybe kill him or Redcloak in the process).

of course, to plan to destroy the gate you were trying to protect, you first need to acknowledge that you're incapable of defending the gate, and making it explode after luring the enemy near it is the best scenario. And that's something the azurites failed to do.

[blackjack217]

I would make it so that the guard towers had to make twice daily reports, which if they fail to make you assume that they have been captured, so they would have a week or more of warning.

[Doomboy911]

I would make it so that the guard towers had to make twice daily reports, which if they fail to make you assume that they have been captured, so they would have a week or more of warning.

Yes but it's still a matter of whether they can prepare in time. Perhaps with the first tower being destroyed they could at least get everyone out of there but I can't help thinking that the OOTS would stick around thinking that they could handle Xykon. If Xykon did take the city just imagine the pain in taking it back.

[Maxios]

My plan would've been in the days before the attack, train a lot of citizens to be part of a militia. That would've seriously made the Azure army larger.

[Souhiro]

Aarindarius Stopping Miko would be a FREE action. because Talking is a free action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction)

She was Lawful Neutral, or more specifically, "Wannabe Lawful Good". Since Aarindarius was a high priest of the 12 Gods and an authority figure of his own, he just need to give her an order (I.E. : Don't hit the shappire, attack for the Crimsom Mantle instead!) In her insides, she is lawful good, but she is too dumb to live at her stantards.


You know, if Haley could have hit redcloack in the elephant, and drawed attention to her, RedCloak won't have made in time into the Shappire Chamber to help Xykon. If Bruno Scoundrel didn't have damaged the defenses, most of Hobbos won't have crossed the gate...

The three things I don't buy of the Azure City Siege are:

a) They didn't asked Team Peregrine help, since they could have powerful spellcasters
b) They didn't have any paladins on the walls or on the city (They fight against a NECROMANCER! Hello? Smite Evil/Turn undead, anyone?
c) Hobbos were fanatical followers of Redcloak. They even agreed to use their own bodies as a ladder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/Jm1k8pD0PPxQ9ci1EIZ.gif)!! I don't see Redcloak as a charismatic leader at all, but that would have any army to quit, Hobbo or not Hobbo. You could handwave that, yeah, but the Azure City guard has issues about the low moral of the troops.


How would I have defended Azure City? Eight words: "Vaarsuvius uses Blessed Scroll of Genocide on Hobgoblin". No Hobbos = No Army = No occupation.

[137beth]

Miko probably wouldn't have listened to Aandarius. She didn't listen to Soon, after all. She would likely say that Aandarius is an impostor sent by Roy to help Xykon.
Still, Aandarius could have stopped her in less than a turn. Quickened hold person...or quickened something else. Assuming he isn't capable of pulling out some serious wizard cheese and killing her before his turn started.

[Souhiro]

Miko probably wouldn't have listened to Aandarius. She didn't listen to Soon, after all. She would likely say that Aandarius is an impostor sent by Roy to help Xykon.You know, we are drawing an scenario where Aandarius IS fighting against Xykon and his minions.

She was dumb, but not braindead (Well, now she is brain plain dead, and her corpse is bound to be in a worst state than Roy's when he was dead)

[Felixc-91]

Was that the consensus? The impression I got was that it was still highly debatable.

Could Soon have kept the hobgoblins from regaining Redcloak's body and the phylactery until good guys showed up?The impression I got was: Quite possibly.

There was also a case made that if Redcloak and Xykon had fought even slightly more optimally (with the resources they went into the throne room with) Soon would have been toast.

This is harder to refute- since we don't know exactly how powerful or well protected Soon was at the time.really? seriously? no way no miko means a gate falls. soon was an epic level paladin, spirit paladin at that, the common hobgoblins couldn't have hurt him. given that he beat both high level spell casters leading the army, there was no one left that could have even scratched him. there were no high level or mid level hobgoblin spell casters. so you have an epic level paladin who is effectively indestructible, guarding the throne room... do i really need to say more?

[Souhiro]

Was that the consensus? The impression I got was that it was still highly debatable.

Could Soon have kept the hobgoblins from regaining Redcloak's body and the phylactery until good guys showed up?The impression I got was: Quite possibly.

There was also a case made that if Redcloak and Xykon had fought even slightly more optimally (with the resources they went into the throne room with) Soon would have been toast.

This is harder to refute- since we don't know exactly how powerful or well protected Soon was at the time.

Oookay.

Xykon fought Soon, and he LOST. He couldn't use any trick, nor ultra-epic, nothing. Redcloak spent TONS of spells in the battle. "Wait, instead of preparing something for the siege, I will prepare lots of anti-epic-ghostMartyr-paladin spells. And won't waste my greatest spells in the case they have Uber-epic protections in the throne room"

That isn't "Fight slightly more optimally" that would be having insight 200%.

[hamishspence]

There were arguments (mostly from Trixie) that Xykon, and Redcloak, already had good ways to defeat Soon- Energy Drain for Xykon, Inflict X Wounds for Redcloak- and it was only because they didn't use them until very late, that they lost.

I was disagreeing with those arguments, when I said "It's still highly debateable".

[137beth]

Oookay.

Xykon fought Soon, and he LOST. He couldn't use any trick, nor ultra-epic, nothing. Redcloak spent TONS of spells in the battle. "Wait, instead of preparing something for the siege, I will prepare lots of anti-epic-ghostMartyr-paladin spells. And won't waste my greatest spells in the case they have Uber-epic protections in the throne room"

That isn't "Fight slightly more optimally" that would be having insight 200%.

Yes. Xykon could have fought better in the thrownroom if he used spells that are more effective against incorporeal creatures (not fire or lightning) from the beginning. That still wouldn't guarantee a win for him though, and you are right that is would be absurd to assume RC could have possibly known exactly what was guarding the gate.

Then there's the fact that after RC and xykon are dead, not only would Soon essentially be unbeatable, but so would all the other ghost-martyrs, since the other goblin clerics weren't a high enough level to overcome the consecration effects and use turn undying.

[Pyron]

I was re-reading oots the other day and I was particularly interested in the defence of Azure city.

If you were given the same resources and the same army to defend the city with as in oots. Would you have done anything differently in protection of the city? Is there any way that the city could have defeated Xykons army with their current forces?

Origins of the PCs spoiler:
I'd get Vaarsuvius, and any Azurite wizard who is capable, to prepare a few Distant Inferno and Empower Distant Inferno spells. With a few resist energy spells, flight and stealth buffs to approach the hobgoblin forces, the spells should do considerable damage.