Horizon Walker: Wow, Just Wow

[wayfare]

So I was flipping through the SRD today and I saw the Horizon Walker, a class that seems only marginally playable.

Which, of course, makes me want to play one.

The abilities seem nice, in a "I was having a rough day and couldn't think of anything else" sort of way, right up until the Planar Terrain Mastery. These abilities actually seem useful, but I wonder If they are only restricted to when the character is operating on that plane.

For example, does a person with Shifting Planar Mastery get to use dimension door on any plane, or only on shifting planes?

I know prestige classes don't translate well to the tier system, but if you had to rank this class, where would you place it?

[CyMage]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618

The class is used in some of the Core Only builds and yes, the terrain mastery can be used in any plane.

[Quietus]

It's actually not a terrible class.. it makes a nice segue for rangers, I find, who easily qualify, and since those iterative TWF attacks aren't that great, they can spread out a little in terms of abilities.

As to the planar masteries - they get those always. So things like Planar Mastery does indeed let you dimdoor on any plane. The fiery/cold/whatever give you permanent resistance. Aligned gives you immunity to Blasphemy and the like, because of the "spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don't affect you".

Also, check out Saph's Horizon Tripper build : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

[Spiryt]

Horizon Walker in World of Warcraft?

[Peregrine]

The abilities seem nice, in a "I was having a rough day and couldn't think of anything else" sort of way, right up until the Planar Terrain Mastery. These abilities actually seem useful, but I wonder If they are only restricted to when the character is operating on that plane.

Nope. It's always available.


Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

...

Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery...

The exception, of course, being Weightless planar mastery. In addition to Shifting, Cavern is also good (tremorsense!), and Aligned may be good or may be totally wicked awesome. (Do you gain it just once and thereafter mimic the alignment of any plane? Or must you take it for each alignment? In either case, being on a Neutral plane -- like the Material -- makes you immune to absolutely everything that doesn't specifically affect Neutral characters. But the former is clearly much, much nicer.)

Also, don't count out the non-planar terrains just yet. Desert is easy immunity to fatigue. Underground gives you (more) darkvision. The others are... okay. (A pity that they're typed, though. Competence bonus rules out a lot of other sources of skill boosts, and while insight bonuses aren't as common, +1 is going to be fairly easily overlapped whenever you do get another insight bonus from something.)

[wayfare]

Down 1 level -- thats harsh!

So Expert into Horizon Walker = Truenamer? Gah!?

Since the abilities can be used on any plane, this actually becomes pretty nice. Though the ability for weightless planes becomes soewhat useless.

Any ideas on how to improve the class?

[Paul H]

Hi

@Wayfare - Pathfinder version? (Even better if you're using the Pathfinder Ranger)! :)

Cheers
Paul H

[wayfare]

Hi

@Wayfare - Pathfinder version? (Even better if you're using the Pathfinder Ranger)! :)

Cheers
Paul H

Nope, just pulled it off the System Reference Document. Is the pathfinder version much better?

[Killer Angel]

Nope. It's always available.

The exception, of course, being Weightless planar mastery.

Eh, good luck with it. :smallfrown:
Sadly it can be interpreted in different ways...


OK, I've got some problem with my Dm on the interpretation by RAW of some planar terrains abilities of the Horizon Walker; here's how my DM read the thing.

the description of terrain mastery says:
Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery.
and
Terrain mastery gives a horizon walker a bonus on checks involving a skill useful in that terrain, or some other appropriate benefit. (snip)
Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.


My DM says: You retain terrain mastey bonuses on skill, attack and damage wherever you go, because they don't need that kind of terrain to work.
For the same reason, you retain all the other benefits that don't need a specific terrain to work.
The immunity to fatigue of the desert, works in every enviroment, because the description says: "You are immune to fatigue". point.
The fire resistance 20 of the fiery (planar), works in every enviroment, because the entry says: "This kind of planar terrain mastery provides you with resistance to fire 20". point.

But for Shifting Planar, the description justifies the dimension door every 1d4/round, because: "You have the SA ability to use the ever-shifting nature of planes such as Limbo to travel faster. You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane that bring you closer to your destination".

So, his reasoning is that, even if you take with you the shifting planar ability, you can use the dimension door only in Planes with the trait "morphic", because you cannot anticipate shifts in the reality, if the plane isn't shifting.
The same applies with "Aligned - planar"... you mimic the alignment of the plane you're in, and you're unaffected by spells that harm those of the opposite alignment (of the Plane you're in). But when you're in the Prime material, which is unaligned, you cannot mimic nothing.
His position is that many of the Planar terrains are useless, unless you effectively play a PlaneScape adventure.

In the end, it's DM's prerogative to negate the benefit of the class, if he believe so, so it's better to clarify the thing with him BEFORE making your character.

[The Big Dice]

Horizon Walker has one thing that bugs me. Or rather, it doesn't have something and bugs me because of that.

There's no way for someone with that class to get from one plane to another.

[wayfare]

Buy a bag of holding and a portable hole. Problem solved.

[Cespenar]

Buy a bag of holding and a portable hole. Problem solved.

That's a one-way ticket, and a pretty expensive one as well. Oh, and it goes only to the Astral Plane.

[Greenish]

Down 1 level -- thats harsh!

So Expert into Horizon Walker = Truenamer? Gah!?Truenamer isn't tier 6.

Horizon Walker mostly gives minor perks. Core-only, it's quite good, but getting to splats, it loses some shine.

[wayfare]

Ah, the astral plane -- if you can make it there you can make it anywhere! :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Horizon Walker has one thing that bugs me. Or rather, it doesn't have something and bugs me because of that.

There's no way for someone with that class to get from one plane to another.

Most worlds tend to contain planar portals. Horizon Walkers make for wonderful Planar Guides.

[wayfare]

Would adding Astral Caravan as a class feature be too powerful?

[John Campbell]

Nope, just pulled it off the System Reference Document. Is the pathfinder version much better?

Hard to say. They changed the way the powers are split up - there's now a weak and a strong for every terrain type, with no distinction made between "planar" and ordinary terrain, and you have to take the weak power to get that terrain's stronger power later - and they evened out the power levels to some degree within those tiers. It's got more good options, but fewer really good options, it's harder to cherry-pick good options, and it takes more investment to get to some of the really good ones... you can't, e.g., dip one level for immunity to fatigue anymore. On the other hand, you only need three levels in the class to get dimension door now - and they removed the weaselly language that would let a nasty DM interpret it as not being useful - instead of six levels. On the gripping hand, the dimension door power has a uses-per-day limit instead of a cooldown time.

In the "clear win" column, though, it's got a d10 hit die.

[n00b killa]

Is the pathfinder version much better?

I would say so.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/horizon-walker

[Peregrine]

But when you're in the Prime material, which is unaligned, you cannot mimic nothing.


I find it very odd that nobody corrected your DM on this in the thread to which you linked, Killer Angel. (Nor corrected the Simple Q&A RAW thread you linked to in the linked post, for that matter.)

The Material Plane is mildly Neutral-aligned. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes#neutralAligned)

It is not "unaligned". And aligning yourself to the plane's dominant alignment when on the Material Plane means you cannot be detected, affected or smitten as a good, lawful, evil or chaotic creature. That's not bad.

[Killer Angel]

I find it very odd that nobody corrected your DM on this in the thread to which you linked, Killer Angel.

The Material Plane is mildly Neutral-aligned. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes#neutralAligned)

It is not "unaligned". And aligning yourself to the plane's dominant alignment when on the Material Plane means you cannot be detected, affected or smitten as a good, lawful, evil or chaotic creature. That's not bad.

Yeah, you're right, it's not bad, but for some things is anyway useless... for example, Blasphemy affects Nonevil creatures. So, even if I can mimic to be neutral (instead of good), I'm affected by it.

[tyckspoon]

On the gripping hand, the dimension door power has a uses-per-day limit instead of a cooldown time.

Losing the ability to teleport everywhere instead of walking just because you can is annoying, but practically speaking I don't think it's a nerf; you'll get 4-5 DimDoors with a typical Ranger entry, which is already more than your party Wizard will normally ever bother to prepare.

[Person_Man]

You can get unlimited Dimension Door every round with the Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) feat. It's a Standard Action, with a range of 10 ft + 10 ft for every point of essentia invested in it. You can get essentia as a racial ability, with feats, with spells, and with levels of Incarnum based classes. If you bind it to your Totem chakra (requires a 2 level dip in Totemist) you can do it as a Move Action, which opens up Shadowpounce shenanigans.

The range is not as impressive as the Horizon Walker, but it can be used every round, and you don't have to slog through 5 levels of garbage to get it.

[Paul H]

I would say so.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/horizon-walker

Hi

Actaully - I think you'll find that practically ALL PF PrC's are better/stronger than the standard 3.5!

(Which is why as a GM, I'd never allow PF with 3.5 splat books. Far toooo broken)! LOL :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H

[Chipp Zanuff]

Truenamer isn't tier 6.

Horizon Walker mostly gives minor perks. Core-only, it's quite good, but getting to splats, it loses some shine.

Especially considering Dimension Door at will costs a feat thanks to Magic of Incarnum.


(Which is why as a GM, I'd never allow PF with 3.5 splat books. Far toooo broken)

Because they have no idea how to balance classes, feats, or magic items. The only thing Paizo does well is Encounters.