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C.Penguin
2010-09-15, 02:49 PM
Does it exist? I'm looking for something akin to the world building sections in the various WotC books, but more in depth and versatile, as opposed to something operating under the standard D&D setting.

If something like it doesn't exist, can anyone recommend a/some good splat books (3rd party or otherwise) that would help a DM design a campaign setting from the ground up.

Inb4 The Giant's articles, I've read those already.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-15, 03:46 PM
There was a great TSR paperback called "The World Builder's Guidebook" or somesuch. I purchased one in the 1990's and loved it as much as the bluebook The Complete Book of Villains (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Villains-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/1560768371).

Sadly, my copy of "the World Builder's Guidebook" vanished under suspicious circumstances and, for the life of me, I cannot find mention of it even existing :smallfrown:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 03:57 PM
Stronghold builder's guidebook is awesome for what it covers. Cityscape is pretty much your "how to build a city" book.

There isn't, so far as I'm aware, a master book that covers all of D&D world building from wizards itself, but you can do fairly well by piecing together the stuff from the appropriate setting books.

RebelRogue
2010-09-15, 04:06 PM
There was a great TSR paperback called "The World Builder's Guidebook" or somesuch. I purchased one in the 1990's and loved it as much as the bluebook The Complete Book of Villains (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Villains-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/1560768371).

Sadly, my copy of "the World Builder's Guidebook" vanished under suspicious circumstances and, for the life of me, I cannot find mention of it even existing :smallfrown:
First hit on Google: http://www.amazon.com/Builders-Guidebook-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786904348

Ormagoden
2010-09-15, 04:21 PM
Another one with the same title and post was locked a little while ago... anyone know the deal?

Heliomance
2010-09-15, 04:22 PM
Double post by accident, one of them was locked because only one topic on the subject is needed.

Ormagoden
2010-09-15, 04:23 PM
I didn't look at the original post time of this thread! My bad!

So cityscape, stronghold builder guides are mentioned. Are there any others that are worth mentioning?

Yora
2010-09-15, 04:35 PM
Stronghold Builders Guidebook is mentioned, but can really not be recommended. At least not for the things discussed in this thread. There's nothing in that book that would help with this.

the most critical part of world building is to have a good idea, something on which no book can really help. :smallannoyed:
So far, I've never come upon any book that really was a help at world building.

RebelRogue
2010-09-15, 04:37 PM
So cityscape, stronghold builder guides are mentioned. Are there any others that are worth mentioning?
The OP mentioned the Giant's articles on the subject, but it bears repeating!

Oracle_Hunter
2010-09-15, 05:04 PM
First hit on Google: http://www.amazon.com/Builders-Guidebook-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786904348
Well, apparently I suck at Google :smalltongue:

That's the one - and it's superb :smallbiggrin:

C.Penguin
2010-09-15, 07:40 PM
Yeah I checked out that TSR book, it's pretty good.

As an addition to the above, does anyone know any really nice map creating tools? Preferably one that allowed total customization as opposed to random generation.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 07:48 PM
Yeah I checked out that TSR book, it's pretty good.

As an addition to the above, does anyone know any really nice map creating tools? Preferably one that allowed total customization as opposed to random generation.

I would love to know that...Everything I've found so far looks terrible.

Crow
2010-09-15, 09:30 PM
I saw a game where a group gets together and creates the campaign world. Basically each is a diety and builds up power each turn that they can use to create, or make changes to the world. So players could make smallish changes every turn, or make major changes or creations by hoarding power for a bit.

Man I would love to find that one again, but I've never been able to remember the name of it.

In any case, if you are looking for a good map program, nothing beats the old pen and paper. Try Fantasy Mapmaking 101 (http://www.fantasymaps.com/101/) for some tips. That's how I created this (spoilered for size);http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8723/newfullmap.jpg

RebelRogue
2010-09-15, 09:34 PM
Nice map there, Crow. Those kinds of things spark my imagination!

C.Penguin
2010-09-15, 11:01 PM
Nice map there, Crow. Those kinds of things spark my imagination!

Seconded, that is one of the more epic maps I have feasted my eyes upon.

Heliomance
2010-09-16, 05:28 AM
I saw a game where a group gets together and creates the campaign world. Basically each is a diety and builds up power each turn that they can use to create, or make changes to the world. So players could make smallish changes every turn, or make major changes or creations by hoarding power for a bit.

Man I would love to find that one again, but I've never been able to remember the name of it.

In any case, if you are looking for a good map program, nothing beats the old pen and paper. Try Fantasy Mapmaking 101 (http://www.fantasymaps.com/101/) for some tips. That's how I created this (spoilered for size);http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8723/newfullmap.jpg
Lords of Creation is one that crops up on the PbP forums every now and then.

XiaoTie
2010-09-16, 06:03 AM
I saw a game where a group gets together and creates the campaign world. Basically each is a diety and builds up power each turn that they can use to create, or make changes to the world. So players could make smallish changes every turn, or make major changes or creations by hoarding power for a bit.

Man I would love to find that one again, but I've never been able to remember the name of it.

In any case, if you are looking for a good map program, nothing beats the old pen and paper. Try Fantasy Mapmaking 101 (http://www.fantasymaps.com/101/) for some tips. That's how I created this (spoilered for size);http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8723/newfullmap.jpg

Awesome map, and I believe the game is the awesome Dawn of Worlds (http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/rpg/Dawn_of_Worlds_game_1_0Final.pdf) (first hit on google :P)

Doomboy911
2010-09-16, 06:18 AM
I say go with my technique of just mixing all the worlds together.
This way if you want something out of a certain world nothing holds you back.

This won't let you make your map on your own (like which door goes where) but it's pretty cool.
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/27gNoJ/www.1km1kt.net/geomorph/

Thinker
2010-09-16, 09:32 AM
Yeah I checked out that TSR book, it's pretty good.

As an addition to the above, does anyone know any really nice map creating tools? Preferably one that allowed total customization as opposed to random generation.

Campaign Cartographer 3 by ProFantasy is pretty good. You can make detailed maps, 3D maps, hand drawn-style maps, etc. They also have addons for cities and dungeons. The developers put out a YouTube series of tutorials for getting your feet wet and their forums are very helpful. Beware, there is a steep learning curve with the software (unless you're used to AutoCad type software). It costs $30 - $40, but is worth the price in my opinion.

hamlet
2010-09-16, 10:48 AM
Campaign Cartographer 3 by ProFantasy is pretty good. You can make detailed maps, 3D maps, hand drawn-style maps, etc. They also have addons for cities and dungeons. The developers put out a YouTube series of tutorials for getting your feet wet and their forums are very helpful. Beware, there is a steep learning curve with the software (unless you're used to AutoCad type software). It costs $30 - $40, but is worth the price in my opinion.

Yeah, I have that and fiddle with it from time to time, but it's very intensive and, as you say, a steep learning curve.

Instead, I find it's actaully easier to draw up maps by hand, especially if you focus on a smaller area at first and then expand outward with a scale of about 1 inch to 1/2 day travel. Don't worry about artistry, just utility. It works out very nice.

SPoD
2010-09-16, 11:12 AM
WOTC doesn't have any such books because WOTC would rather sell you pre-made campaign settings than give you the advice needed to create one that is fully developed. The last such book, as noted, was printed during the TSR era. I'll explain why.

Figure it this way, there are three potential levels of creativity of DMs:
1.) Those who need no guidance at all to create a compelling campaign world.
2.) Those who need guidance to create a compelling campaign world.
3.) Those who will never be able to create a compelling campaign world, even with guidance.

Group #1 will never need to buy a pre-made setting. Group #3 will always need to buy a pre-made setting. So that leaves us with Group #2, DMs who might need to buy a pre-made setting.

If WOTC puts out a world-building guidebook for Group #2, many (if not most) will buy it. And that would be good for them in the short term. But then those customers will master the skills necessary and convert to Group #1 customers after only one book purchase. They would have the tools necessary to play in a variety of settings, and change setting as many times as they like. They would not need to buy WOTC's pre-made settings anymore.

On the other hand, if WOTC never puts out world-building guidebook, the logic goes, those customers will be forced into Group #3, where they will have to buy pre-made settings in order to play. And WOTC sells many pre-made settings, each with several books apiece. If the Group #3 customer wants to play in a different setting, well, that's another set of book purchases.

So it's fiscally imperative that WOTC never, ever puts out a book that breaks down the entire process of creating a campaign setting from scratch, even though there would be a huge market for it.

Thinker
2010-09-16, 12:20 PM
Yeah, I have that and fiddle with it from time to time, but it's very intensive and, as you say, a steep learning curve.

Instead, I find it's actaully easier to draw up maps by hand, especially if you focus on a smaller area at first and then expand outward with a scale of about 1 inch to 1/2 day travel. Don't worry about artistry, just utility. It works out very nice.
At first I was overwhelmed with all of the options and intricacies of the CC3 software, but after going through the tutorials, everything went much quicker. Also, like I said, the forums are very helpful. Most questions have already been answered and are a quick search away. I find it very useful for its scaling capabilities. For example, if you start with a large continent, you can zoom in to a single country or region and make a map there on separate layers (or export to a totally new map) and keep all of the original details of your larger landmass. You are right, utility is most important with a map, but in my opinion, why settle when you can have both?



WOTC doesn't have any such books because WOTC would rather sell you pre-made campaign settings than give you the advice needed to create one that is fully developed. The last such book, as noted, was printed during the TSR era. I'll explain why.

Figure it this way, there are three potential levels of creativity of DMs:
1.) Those who need no guidance at all to create a compelling campaign world.
2.) Those who need guidance to create a compelling campaign world.
3.) Those who will never be able to create a compelling campaign world, even with guidance.

Group #1 will never need to buy a pre-made setting. Group #3 will always need to buy a pre-made setting. So that leaves us with Group #2, DMs who might need to buy a pre-made setting.

If WOTC puts out a world-building guidebook for Group #2, many (if not most) will buy it. And that would be good for them in the short term. But then those customers will master the skills necessary and convert to Group #1 customers after only one book purchase. They would have the tools necessary to play in a variety of settings, and change setting as many times as they like. They would not need to buy WOTC's pre-made settings anymore.

On the other hand, if WOTC never puts out world-building guidebook, the logic goes, those customers will be forced into Group #3, where they will have to buy pre-made settings in order to play. And WOTC sells many pre-made settings, each with several books apiece. If the Group #3 customer wants to play in a different setting, well, that's another set of book purchases.

So it's fiscally imperative that WOTC never, ever puts out a book that breaks down the entire process of creating a campaign setting from scratch, even though there would be a huge market for it.

WotC is very likely content in publishing pre-generated fantasy worlds. I think that your conspiracy theory is a bit far fetched and I am prepared to explain why. First, lumping people into three categories sounds nice on the face of it, but I don't think that those buckets adequately categorize all people. Second, there is no profitability lost in publishing world building how-to books. Finally, there is simply not a large enough profit gain to justify the investment into a single world building book.

The categories that you presented, those who can, those who could, and those who can't are very broad. You also suggest that those who can build campaigns have no interest in a published setting, as though their own creative tendencies completely rule out enjoying other people's similar accomplishments. Your statements about those who could build campaigns with a little bit of guidance makes it seem that anyone with a little guidance will no longer need future guidance. Finally, your notion that no one without an inclination will never have an inclination is flat out wrong.

Why would Group #1 never purchase a pre-made world? Authors read, don't they? Is it impossible for people to enjoy more than one setting at a time? I see plenty of creative people who enjoy Exalted, including the setting, where they could likely make a setting just as epic. I enjoy Eberron, even though I did not make it, nor have I made anything similar. There also lies the fact that lots of people who can already build worlds would likely pick up a book like this, for more (and professional) advice and to cover things they might have missed.

Somehow Group #2 is filled with people who really want to make their own campaign settings, but simply can't figure out how and are too dim to check the internet. A world-building guide for these people would likely sell fairly quickly and would not see an appreciable loss in sales of their current campaigns. Sure, some might quit their Eberron or Dark Sun campaigns in the short term, but most would continue to play what they are familiar with and occasionally dabble in their premade world. If WotC could market it correctly, they could even suggest that the world builder guide is a way to enhance previously published material through customization.

Group #3 may never purchase a world building guide, but there is certainly a capacity for them to. There are lots of collectors who simply like having every book, despite never using most of them. Plenty of people would get it to look for more character or monster options or for customization. A world building book does not need to only have a simple checklist for what to include a world.

Profitability is always a function of resources invested and an ability to market material. I think that the problem with a world building guide is that the time invested simply isn't worthwhile compared to their other projects. The company has a release schedule and has a limited number of employees and simply doesn't have time to create everything that is worthwhile. I think a campaign guide would be an excellent addition to a product line because there is a market for it. WotC has published multiple campaign settings now and they compete with one another directly and they haven't seen their cash flow slow down from that. Your notion that WotC would take a massive future financial loss is ill conceived.

Steveotep
2010-09-16, 01:41 PM
Gamemastering Secrets 2nd edition from Grey Ghost Games has great articles on world building and map making.

Primal Order is about gods fighting for control of planes of existence, and has a lot of information on designing and populating worlds. It was by a tiny company that went bust after their card game was a massive flop. I mean "collectible card game" what sort of dumb idea is that. If only Wizards of the Coast had stuck with roleplaying...

Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds from Troll Lord Games is at least seven volumes on world creation, partly written by Gary Gygax. I like the first The Canting Crew as it has a real Thieves' Cant dictionary. I imagine Volume 2 World Builder is the one you want although I have not read it.

Crow
2010-09-16, 11:52 PM
Awesome map, and I believe the game is the awesome Dawn of Worlds (http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/rpg/Dawn_of_Worlds_game_1_0Final.pdf) (first hit on google :P)

THAT was it. Thank you sir!

Melayl
2010-09-17, 02:45 AM
A Magical Society: Ecology and Culture (and the free excerpt, Guide to Mapping) by Expiditious Retreat Press, are wonderful campaign and mapping resources.

The Cartographer's Guild (online community -- don't have the link right now), is also a great mapping resource.