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Bobmufin52
2010-09-15, 06:16 PM
Hey forumers, I have a quick question about the ring of sustenance.

My player wants to get the ring very soon, mainly for the effect of getting 8 hours of rest only in 2 hours. He said he wants this because that means he can gain back all of his spells in 2 hours instead of 8.

Now what’s confusing me is that I’ve seen other magic do the whole need only x hours of rest to gain effects of 8 hours of rest, but they all had a part saying you still need 8 hours rest to regain spells; all except or the ring of sustenance.

So my question is doses that make the ring OP, or is it properly priced and such so that you can have only 2 hours’ rest to regain spells?

Malfunctioned
2010-09-15, 06:18 PM
Nope, the ring doesn't let you regain spells quicker. The text for wizards and other spellcasters states that you need 8 hours of rest to regain spells. That's time for preparing spells and gathering components, things like that. The ring wouldn't help for these.

ericgrau
2010-09-15, 06:20 PM
It doesn't let you get your spells back in 2 hours. You always need 8 hours whether you need to sleep or not. Even elves need 8 hours, not 4.

To the thread title, no it is not an OP item.

Karsh
2010-09-15, 06:20 PM
Unless you rule that Elves can refresh spells after only 4 hours of meditation, the Ring of Sustenance does not allow you to re-prepare spells after 2 hours of rest.

If your player really wants something like that, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll from Complete Mage does it in 1 hour once every 48 hours for 3000 gp. Given that, the argument that the Ring of Sustenance does this an unlimited number of times per day every 2 hours falls apart.

Also, remind your player that any spells cast in the last 8 hours still count against the total spells per day, even with the Fortifying Bedroll.

Malfunctioned
2010-09-15, 06:21 PM
Also, a quote from the SRD.


If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Edge of Dreams
2010-09-15, 06:26 PM
Another way to look at it is to realize that you need 8 hours of REST to prepare spells, but nowhere does it say you need 8 hours of SLEEP per night. A ring of sustenance reduces the amount of SLEEP you need to function without fatigue, but it has no effect on class features which require a certain amount of REST.

The White Knight
2010-09-15, 06:31 PM
Since you didn't specify what kind of caster we're talking about, it is also worth noting that Divine casters don't need rest at all to prepare spells and instead receive their spells by praying at a specific time each day. Indeed, a Divine caster capable of casting Lesser Restoration need never sleep at all, from what I can tell.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 06:34 PM
Sleep is a type of rest.

The ring reads " so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep"

Therefore, it works.

However, you still can only prepare spells once every 24 hours, and the limitation on spell slots you've recently cast from still applies. All he's really accomplished is ensure that he's on guard duty for part of the night. Not overpowered.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-15, 06:39 PM
Sleep is a type of rest.

The ring reads " so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep"

Therefore, it works.

No it doesn't.

You have to rest for eight hours, even if you don't need to sleep that long.

Shenanigans
2010-09-15, 06:46 PM
I've always read it (and ruled it) that a wizard (or whatever) still needs to be resting during the six hours, but can be awake. They can't really be walking the perimeter "on watch" but they can be awake, and hence make unpenalized Spot and Listen checks.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 06:52 PM
No it doesn't.

You have to rest for eight hours, even if you don't need to sleep that long.

This depends on the idea that sleeping is not actually resting. This is...counterintuitive.

It also does not mesh well with the way in which the SRD uses the terms.

"
Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-15, 06:55 PM
Sleeping is resting, but even if the Wizard for some reason doesn't need eight hours of sleep, he still has to rest for eight consecutive hours to prepare his spells.

It's written right there in the rules! Specifically because of elves and Rings of Sustenance!

This isn't some magic item printed in a later book which they didn't take into account - it's printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Edit:


Rest
...
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

This bit! Right here!

tenshiakodo
2010-09-15, 07:01 PM
The fact that sleep =/= rest really busts the verisimilitude of the game for a lot of people. But it's a necessary rule, otherwise undead spellcasters or warforged would quickly make a mockery of any 3.5 campaign.

If it helps, you can always think of it as if you're mentally exhausted; your body is awake, but your mind just wants to sit in front of the TV and vegetate.

Alternately, here's a healthy dose of DM doubletalk for you:

"I don't think you appreciate what's really going on here when you go to cast spells. You're drawing power from other planes of reality, sources of power that include realms of ever-shifting chaos, the brains of lobotomized gods, and the uneffable certainty that beyond this fragile veil you call reality, there exists something vastly older, more powerful, and indescribably alien. And every time you cast a spell, invoking it's ancient names, it LOOKS at you.

Taking that power and encoding it into a magical formula that you can pull out of your head whenever you want to doesn't just tax your body, it taxes your sanity. Your very soul. Your existence, as you know it. Now, if you want to risk all of that just to get a few more spells off in a 24-hour period, be my guest.

Just remember this. That which is not dead can eternal lie. And with strange aeons, even death may die."

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 07:03 PM
Sleeping is resting, but even if the Wizard for some reason doesn't need eight hours of sleep, he still has to rest for eight consecutive hours to prepare his spells.

It's written right there in the rules! Specifically because of elves and Rings of Sustenance!

This isn't some magic item printed in a later book which they didn't take into account - it's printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

It's NOT written right there in the rules.

It says you need eight hours of sleep is what you need to prepare spells. Therefore, if you "gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep", you have satisfied that. Done deal.

It does not say that you no longer need to sleep...it says that you gain the benefits AS THOUGH YOU HAD SLEPT. That's what matters.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-15, 07:08 PM
:smallsigh:

Again.


Rest
...
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Read. Be enlightened.

Mnemnosyne
2010-09-15, 07:09 PM
Sleeping is resting, but even if the Wizard for some reason doesn't need eight hours of sleep, he still has to rest for eight consecutive hours to prepare his spells.

It's written right there in the rules! Specifically because of elves and Rings of Sustenance!

This isn't some magic item printed in a later book which they didn't take into account - it's printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
If sleeping is resting, then the ring of sustenance counts as 8 hours of rest in only 2 hours. Note that the description of the ring specifically says "needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep." It does not say that they only need to sleep for 2 hours in order to prevent fatigue or any other terminology. It says they gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

If it said 'the character only needs to sleep for two hours a night' or something along those lines, then you would be correct, but since you actually gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep...

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-15, 07:12 PM
I'm finding it difficult how one can parse


Rest
...
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

as meaning "but if you have an ability that lets you gain the benefits of eight hours of sleep in less time, go nuts!".

Elves also gain the benefits of eight hours of sleep by meditating for four - should they be able to prepare their spells after only four hours? Because they quite specifically cannot.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 07:13 PM
:smallsigh:

Again.



Read. Be enlightened.

So? It does not negate your body's need for sleep.


The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

See? You gain the benefits as if you had slept 8 straight hours. Therefore, the clause you quoted never becomes relevant.

Incidentally, the "and mind" portion contradicts Tend's refluffing.

Susano-wo
2010-09-15, 07:14 PM
Just...no. You gain the effects of sleep, which, in game are: not getting fatigued.
The requirements of gaining new spells are that you must rest for 8hrs, even if you don't need the sleep.

Rest=rectangle
sleep= square

Ravens_cry
2010-09-15, 07:15 PM
Think of it this way, all sleep is rest, but not all rest is sleep. It explicitly says you need 8 hours of rest to regain spells, and only needing 2 hours of sleep does nothing to change that.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 07:22 PM
Just...no. You gain the effects of sleep, which, in game are: not getting fatigued.
The requirements of gaining new spells are that you must rest for 8hrs, even if you don't need the sleep.

Rest=rectangle
sleep= square

No, the requirement is, by raw, you need 8 hrs sleep.

If you do not sleep, you instead need 8 hrs rest. For those that DO need to sleep, this clause is obviously never relevant.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-15, 07:22 PM
No, the requirement is, by raw, you need 8 hrs sleep.

No, the requirement, by RAW, is that you need eight hours of rest. Sleep is just one way of resting and something most people have to do anyway.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 07:25 PM
Neither the DMG nor the SRD use the word rest in the universal requirement. The exact requirement is "eight hours of sleep".

The rest clause only is triggered in the case where the individual does not need to sleep. This clause is say, relevant for warforged and elves(who trance instead of sleeping). It is not relevant for those who still need to sleep.

I have quoted where RAW requires 8 hours of sleep. By all means, do so for rest, and explain how, within the rules of english, the sentence still applies. Note the existance of the "if" at the beginning of the sentence regarding rest.

Zhalath
2010-09-15, 07:27 PM
I thought that the rule was that you needed 8 hours of not-doing-anything. Like, you need 8 hours to pull magic into your brain. I suppose if you could self-accelerate time, you could acquire 8 hours without 8 hours actually passing (Persisted Time Stop with Incantatrix, mebbe). Like, with elves and elan, who trance for 4 hours, sure, they're no longer tired, but they still need to sit and gather energy.

Arcane magic is kind of like drivers ed. It doesn't matter what loophole you find to get equivalent knowledge, you still need to fulfill the hourly component. Otherwise, no fly and no drive.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-15, 07:29 PM
I have quoted where RAW requires 8 hours of sleep. By all means, do so for rest, and explain how, within the rules of english, the sentence still applies. Note the existance of the "if" at the beginning of the sentence regarding rest.

No. There's no point, you're not going to accept anything anyway.

I'll just be safe in the knowledge that WotC's official stance is that you need eight hours of rest, with or without actually sleeping, to regain spells and leave this thread alone.

Pretend this is a victory for yourself if you like, I don't care.

Binks
2010-09-15, 07:31 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

It's not open to debate, it's discussed in the official 3.5 FAQ. Ring of Sus (and the Elf trance) does not allow you to refresh spells in 2h. Sorry, but refreshing arcane spells is not a 'benefit of sleeping' but something separate that is also gained in 8h of rest.

Zaydos
2010-09-15, 07:33 PM
The Rules Compendium does change 2 words in the description of what an arcane caster must do to prepare spells. The first usage of sleep is replaced with rest; also they removed the word fairly before strenuous.

Shenanigans
2010-09-15, 07:34 PM
The rest clause only is triggered in the case where the individual does not need to sleep. This clause is say, relevant for warforged and elves(who trance instead of sleeping). It is not relevant for those who still need to sleep.
I would argue that you can interpret "does not need to sleep for some reason" to include "does not need to sleep for eight hours." The more inclusive wording of the introductory clause allows for characters who don't ever need to sleep, such as elves, and characters who don't need to sleep as much, such as those wearing a ring of sustenance. This is the whole "greater includes the lesser" principle at work. At times, the ring of sustenance ("some reason") allows a character to "not need to sleep." If the intention was just to include characters who don't require any sleep, then they could have written it as "does not ever need to sleep for some reason."

Also, with the way the elven trance description was written, it seems like designer intention was to limit casters in this way.

EDIT:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

It's not open to debate, it's discussed in the official 3.5 FAQ. Ring of Sus (and the Elf trance) does not allow you to refresh spells in 2h. Sorry, but refreshing arcane spells is not a 'benefit of sleeping' but something separate that is also gained in 8h of rest.
Ummm..what he said.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-15, 07:35 PM
Just...no. You gain the effects of sleep, which, in game are: not getting fatigued.
The requirements of gaining new spells are that you must rest for 8hrs, even if you don't need the sleep.

Rest=rectangle
sleep= square

Um, where does no sleep list fatigue in the books? i don't mean realism, but RAW.

shadowkiller
2010-09-15, 07:37 PM
Ok you're the DM if you want you're campaign to run faster and have higher power spellcasters go ahead and allow it, otherwise don't allow it. If you do allow it and ever need that player to have less spells per day make a time sensitive objective so the caster does not have time to rest or do a surprise goblin raid or whatever is right for their level to interrupt spell preparation.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-15, 07:38 PM
Um, where does no sleep list fatigue in the books? i don't mean realism, but RAW.

Technically, it only happens if you sleep in armor.


Sleeping in Armor

A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He or she takes a -2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue.
...which also has the hilarious implication because of poor wording that a fighter who succumbs to a sleep spell while wearing full plate is fatigued tomorrow.

Susano-wo
2010-09-15, 07:56 PM
well, a cursory search of the SRD only indicates that sleep removes fatigue, not lack of sleep causing it, so you are probably right about RAW not making people atigued if they don't sleep :facepalm:

also:


Quote:
Sleeping in Armor
A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He or she takes a -2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue.
...which also has the hilarious implication because of poor wording that a fighter who succumbs to a sleep spell while wearing full plate is fatigued tomorrow.

That is freakin hilarious :D

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 08:00 PM
The Rules Compendium does change 2 words in the description of what an arcane caster must do to prepare spells. The first usage of sleep is replaced with rest; also they removed the word fairly before strenuous.

See, a RC change is valid. That I'll accept.

And the sleeping in armor thing is...mindboggling. Heh.

Mnemnosyne
2010-09-15, 08:34 PM
The key point is that whether you need to sleep for 8 hours or rest for 8 hours, sleeping for 8 hours is resting for 8 hours.

Since you gain the benefit of sleeping for 8 hours in only 2 hours by wearing the ring of sustenance, you therefore gain all benefits of sleeping for 8 hours.

The ring of sustenance does not reduce the amount of sleep you need or not require you to sleep, like some other items. It gives the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, in 2 hours. As the item is worded, that means you rested long enough to memorize spells, since sleep is rest, and you gained the benefits of 8 hours of it.

It does not, however remove any other limitations such as only being able to memorize spells once per day, or the fact that any spells you cast in the previous 8 hours count against your spells used for the following day. So you can't burn off all your spells, sleep for two hours, then be full on spells again. Just like you can't get up at 8 AM, cast your entire repetoire of spells by 9 AM, rest until 5 PM, then re-memorize your spells.

What you can do is stay up most of the night, as long as you don't cast any spells, then after six hours without casting spells, sleep for two hours and memorize your spells. So it basically means you get to stand watch more.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 08:36 PM
In a no RC/FAQ world, that's correct.

But RC does trump DMG/SRD, so far as I'm aware.

Binks
2010-09-15, 08:44 PM
What you can do is stay up most of the night, as long as you don't cast any spells, then after six hours without casting spells, sleep for two hours and memorize your spells. So it basically means you get to stand watch more.

As long as you don't cast any spells or do anything non-restful. You have to rest 8h, regardless of anything else, it's directly spelled out in the FAQ. The ring of sustenance (or elf trancing) doesn't do anything about that. Seriously...why is this still being debated when it's already been directly addressed by Wizards in the official FAQ?

Urpriest
2010-09-15, 08:53 PM
Tyndmyr, I'd like to point out that if your argument was valid, then it would also allow the following:

Suppose you had a curse on you that lasts six hours. If you were to sleep for eight hours, you would be rid of it. If you sleep for two hours wearing a ring of sustenance, and your argument is valid, then the curse goes away, because it going away is a benefit you can get from eight hours of sleep.

Or suppose you're about to be tortured for four hours, but they let you sleep two hours first, and you're wearing a ring of sustenance. Then you gain all benefits as if you had slept for eight hours: in particular, you are treated as if you had slept through being tortured! You thus tell your tormentors nothing, because you are treated as if you were asleep at the time, despite being awake (and perfectly able to feel/respond).

In short, your interpretation implies that a ring of sustenance is basically a low-level Dal Quor Planar Shepherd. Which is probably a bad idea.

Mnemnosyne
2010-09-15, 08:55 PM
Unless sleep is not rest, requiring 8 hours of rest doesn't make any difference, since sleep is rest, and you gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep, therefore gaining the benefit of 8 hours of rest.

If there's a specific distinction stating that sleep does not count as rest, then it would prevent that from working, but such a distinction would seem to indicate that a wizard must sleep as normally required by their race, as well as rest, which means they'd have to be inactive for sixteen hours a day (8 hours of rest, and sleep being entirely separate and also taking ~8 hours) since sleep doesn't provide rest.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-15, 09:04 PM
Tyndmyr, I'd like to point out that if your argument was valid, then it would also allow the following:

Suppose you had a curse on you that lasts six hours. If you were to sleep for eight hours, you would be rid of it. If you sleep for two hours wearing a ring of sustenance, and your argument is valid, then the curse goes away, because it going away is a benefit you can get from eight hours of sleep.

That is not a benefit you get from six hours of sleep. That is something that occurs simply from six hours passing.

You only gain the benefits of sleeping for eight hours. You don't actually gain additional time.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-15, 09:09 PM
That is not a benefit you get from six hours of sleep. That is something that occurs simply from six hours passing.

You only gain the benefits of sleeping for eight hours. You don't actually gain additional time.

Otherwise Ring of Sustence becomeas a time machine (to go to the future).

Marnath
2010-09-15, 10:21 PM
Elves can't prepare spells after 4 hours? O.o
I always thought that they halved that time requirement as well. I'd take a balanced approach here, the ring lets you count as 8 hours rested in 2, so you can run around after that and do strenuous things but still not renew spells for 8 full hours. Not only do you get to stand watch but you can actually contribute too in the mean time. It's hardly that broken compared to everything else a wizard can do, not to mention it takes up one of the most valuable item slots.

Coidzor
2010-09-15, 10:28 PM
Really, the main balancing mechanic is the whole only refreshing spells once every 24 hours anyway, so how much downtime one needs in the day to wait to refresh the spells is negligible. It doesn't really give that much, especially because without some means of negating the whole spells cast within the last 8 hours before spell prep are still expended means that one can't waltz into a dungeon, nova all the spells away, and then rest for two hours and come back and nova through the second half or anything like that.

kestrel404
2010-09-16, 08:20 AM
If this is a RAW semantics issue, let's look at the relevant pieces of text, shall we?

From Ring of Sustenance:

The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.

From Elves:

An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.

Effectively identical text. Anyone tempted to argue that 'gaining the same benefit as a human' is different from 'gaining the same benefit', you're just being silly.

Now:

From prepping spells:

If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elf wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds, even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies.

I'd say that's pretty clear, right there. For those of you who missed it, both elves and RoS users can 'gain the benefit of' 8 hours of sleep in less than 8 hours. Elves and the general case (anyone else who gains 8 hours of sleep in less than 8 hours) are stated as not being able to override the 8 hour restriction, and therefore you cannot re-prepare spells faster.

And now to settle a LOT of arguments (and also to validate some cheese, as a side effect)!

From Heward's Fortifying Bedroll:

Heward's fortifying bedroll grants you
the benefits of a full 8 hours of rest—including
the elimination of fatigue or exhaustion, natural
healing, and the ability to prepare or ready arcane spells—
over the course of a single hour. Spells cast within the last 8
hours still count against your daily limit as normal.

Well, that's very specific. And the rule is that the specific overrides the general, meaning that you CAN prep new spells. And, from the wording, only spells cast in the last 8 hours count against your daily spell count - meaning that you can fully regain ALL of your spells by waiting/resting 8 hours and then prepping them as normal (takes an hour, total of 9 hours).

So, from the way Heward's Fortifying Bedroll is written, it's pretty clear that the INTENDED rule is that a prepared caster, after resting or sleeping for 8 hours and taking an hour (or less) to prepare spells, can regain all their spells, rather than being limited to a 24 hour refresh period.

Personally, I would have ruled the other way, but that's how it seems by RAI and RAW.

jiriku
2010-09-16, 09:15 AM
"I don't think you appreciate what's really going on here when you go to cast spells. You're drawing power from other planes of reality, sources of power that include realms of ever-shifting chaos, the brains of lobotomized gods, and the uneffable certainty that beyond this fragile veil you call reality, there exists something vastly older, more powerful, and indescribably alien. And every time you cast a spell, invoking it's ancient names, it LOOKS at you.

Taking that power and encoding it into a magical formula that you can pull out of your head whenever you want to doesn't just tax your body, it taxes your sanity. Your very soul. Your existence, as you know it. Now, if you want to risk all of that just to get a few more spells off in a 24-hour period, be my guest.

Just remember this. That which is not dead can eternal lie. And with strange aeons, even death may die."

This is totally worth a cookie. Would you prefer thin mints or trefoils?

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-16, 09:25 AM
The ring of sustenance doesn't work that way. However, there is an item called Heward's Fortifying Bedroll in the Complete Mage that lets you prepare spells after 1 hour rest, but after using it for this you can't use it again for 48 hours. It's only 3000 gp, though.

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 09:29 AM
I think the assumption made was that "the benefit of 8 hours rest" as defined by Heward's Fortifying Bedroll, include the ability to prepare arcane spells.

Therefore (using the way the Bedroll is written) whenever you gain the benefit of 8 hours rest- either by actually resting 8 hours, or using the Ring of Sustenance, you automatically regain the ability to prepare arcane spells.

This may be an unwarranted assumption though.

EDIT: If the Ring of Sustenance only says "sleep" and not "rest" or "restful calm" it may not count.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-16, 09:44 AM
EDIT: If the Ring of Sustenance only says "sleep" and not "rest" or "restful calm" it may not count.

Sustenance

This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.

Don't understand why we're still having this argument.


The description of the ring of sustenance says the user gets all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours. How does this affect a bard, sorcerer, or wizard who wants to regain spells? Specifically, how does this interact with the casting limit rule in the PH?

In the case of a ring of sustenance, “all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep” means the character sleeps for 2 hours and regains 1 hit point per level (see the rules for natural healing on Chapter 8 of the PH). If the ring wearer is fatigued, 2 hours of sleep removes the fatigue.

A wizard must have 8 hours of rest before regaining spells. If the wizard doesn’t have to sleep for some reason, she still requires 8 hours of rest to regain any spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells on page 177 of the PH). A ring of sustenance doesn’t change that.

A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that. A ring of sustenance also doesn’t exempt the wearer from the casting limit rule. Whenever a spellcaster gets a new set of spells, any spell slot she used in the last 8 hours is not available. This rule has nothing to do with how much sleep the spellcaster gets; it reflects how long a spell slot must remain empty before the character can refill it. The ring doesn’t make 8 hours pass, so it doesn’t help the character refill the used spell slot.

Urpriest
2010-09-16, 09:49 AM
That is not a benefit you get from six hours of sleep. That is something that occurs simply from six hours passing.

You only gain the benefits of sleeping for eight hours. You don't actually gain additional time.

Your logic: "Normally, when you sleep eight hours, you rest for eight hours. Resting is a benefit. Therefore, after sleeping for two hours with a ring of sustenance you are treated as if you had rested for eight hours."

My logic: "Normally, when you sleep eight hours, eight hours passes. Eight hours passing is (in this situation) a benefit. Therefore, after sleeping for two hours with a ring of sustenance you are treated (in this situation) as if eight hours had passed."

I see no difference in the arguments. The flaw in both of them is that "benefit" is not meant to be read as covering anything good that might come of a condition. "Benefit" only refers to a specific list of outcomes associated with the condition. For example, removing fatigue is a benefit of eight hours of sleep. Resting for eight hours is not, it is simply something good that can come from eight hours of sleep.

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 09:54 AM
Some people say "FAQ is not RAW" but this doesn't seem like much of an argument to me.

What I was wondering was- is there anything that says spells can only be regained "once per day" and overriding the theory that 8 hours of rest is all that's needed, so you can do it twice per day instead of once.

I think Sage Advice said something about this in Dragon- but I'm not sure if Sage Advice is as well regarded as FAQ.

Psyx
2010-09-16, 09:57 AM
Don't understand why we're still having this argument.

Shouldn't it have ended about a page ago?

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-16, 09:58 AM
Don't understand why we're still having this argument.

I refer to it as the "Duty Calls Effect".

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png (http://xkcd.com/386/)

Unfortunately it even happens when you're wrong.

Morph Bark
2010-09-16, 10:00 AM
It's OP only for those who don't rely on "daily" stuff, but that is only OP in the sense that Warforged are.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-16, 10:00 AM
Warforged aren't overpowered. Dwarves and (especially) humans are still better.

The best +0 LA races in the game are, in rough order:

1. Human
2. Strongheart Halflling
3. Azurin
4. That Vile human subspecies that I can't remember the name of
5. Dwarf

Are we seeing a pattern here? Hint: the free feat is just that good.

Zaydos
2010-09-16, 10:03 AM
Warforged aren't overpowered. Dwarves and (especially) humans are still better.

The best +0 LA races in the game are, in rough order:

1. Human
2. Strongheart Halflling
3. Azurin
4. That Vile humanoid subspecies that I can't remember the name of
5. Dwarf

Are we seeing a pattern here? Hint: the free feat is just that good.

I thought #1 was Strongheart Halfling; it's better for casters (okay anything non-melee) than human as a whole.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-16, 10:04 AM
Well, I said rough order. Strongheart Halflings and Humans are pretty much tied for first.

Zaydos
2010-09-16, 10:05 AM
Also do people realize that Tyndmyr stopped arguing when the Rules Compendium got mentioned? People have been arguing with no one for a whole page.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-16, 10:06 AM
Some people say "FAQ is not RAW" but this doesn't seem like much of an argument to me.

What I was wondering was- is there anything that says spells can only be regained "once per day" and overriding the theory that 8 hours of rest is all that's needed, so you can do it twice per day instead of once.


How many times in a day can a priest have his or her spells replenished? I have a player who cites the PH as saying that the priest need meditate for only 1 hour to regain his spells. Please shed some light on this if you can.
A cleric (or other divine spellcaster) regains spells once a day. This requires 1 hour of meditation at the correct time of day (which can vary depending of the character and his deity). See Preparing Divine Spells in Chapter 10 of the PH.


How do I know when my cleric can prepare spells? Does he need to rest first?
Divine spellcasters who prepare spells (such as clerics and druids) choose and prepare their spells at a particular time of day. Unless the character’s deity or faith specifies a particular time, the character can choose his spell preparation time when he first gains the ability to cast divine spells. Dawn, dusk, noon, and midnight are common choices. If something prevents the character from praying for his spells at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible or else wait until the next day to prepare his spells. Unlike wizards, divine spellcasters need not rest before preparing spells.


Can you rest for 8 hours more than once a day? For example, could I cast a spell that lasts for the entire day, then rest, and then do it again?
While this is technically within the rules, the Sage nevertheless would support any Dungeon Master that disallowed it. Ultimately, it comes down to the DM’s vision of how magic works in her campaign.So...you tell me. *shrug*

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-16, 10:07 AM
Also do people realize that Tyndmyr stopped arguing when the Rules Compendium got mentioned? People have been arguing with no one for a whole page.

Actually, no, some people have been crawling out of the woodwork to argue the same tired points for a while now.

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 10:11 AM
So...you tell me. *shrug*

Sounds like it requires the DM to actively disallow double-rests for arcane casters. I would- but I'm not sure if other DMs would.

Same issue crops up for psions- who don't have to wait a full hour after their eight hour rest.

Supporters of the "daily" perspective might say:

Daily means daily, not "8-hourly".

Mnemnosyne
2010-09-16, 10:14 AM
If this is a RAW semantics issue, let's look at the relevant pieces of text, shall we?

...

Effectively identical text. Anyone tempted to argue that 'gaining the same benefit as a human' is different from 'gaining the same benefit', you're just being silly.
This point pretty much shoots down my argument. It's worded poorly in my opinion, in this case, but I had not noticed that the elf description also used the same 'the same benefit' line, so given that example to contrast with my point is apparently incorrect.

The idea that sleep is somehow not rest is still ludicrously insane, however, and given the other limits on spell memorization, I don't really understand a reason for that limitation.

kamikasei
2010-09-16, 10:19 AM
This seems like a good place to ask a question that's annoyed me for a while. Divine casters choose a time of day to prepare their spells and can choose dawn, morning, noon, midnight...

But they're still subject to the recent casting limit. You don't need eight hours of restful calm, but if you prepare your spells at the end of the adventuring day then chances are half of the slots will be unavailable to refill.

Am I missing something, or do the rules really make one another that pointless in this case?

Urpriest
2010-09-16, 10:19 AM
Also do people realize that Tyndmyr stopped arguing when the Rules Compendium got mentioned? People have been arguing with no one for a whole page.

Tyndmyr stopped arguing the rule on the authority of the rules compendium, but presumably still believes his/her initial argument to be valid, and as such might make the same mistake again. I think of myself as an educator. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2010-09-16, 10:22 AM
The idea that sleep is somehow not rest is still ludicrously insane, however, and given the other limits on spell memorization, I don't really understand a reason for that limitation.

Rest includes sleep, not vice versa.


This seems like a good place to ask a question that's annoyed me for a while. Divine casters choose a time of day to prepare their spells and can choose dawn, morning, noon, midnight...

But they're still subject to the recent casting limit. You don't need eight hours of restful calm, but if you prepare your spells at the end of the adventuring day then chances are half of the slots will be unavailable to refill.

Am I missing something, or do the rules really make one another that pointless in this case?

You're not missing anything. To be honest, I always talk to my DMs and say, "look, these two rules are inherently contradictory. Can we just tell them both to make like a tree and leaf, and you have every right to immediately reinstate them should I start abusing their absence?"

Emmerask
2010-09-16, 10:23 AM
This seems like a good place to ask a question that's annoyed me for a while. Divine casters choose a time of day to prepare their spells and can choose dawn, morning, noon, midnight...

But they're still subject to the recent casting limit. You don't need eight hours of restful calm, but if you prepare your spells at the end of the adventuring day then chances are half of the slots will be unavailable to refill.

Am I missing something, or do the rules really make one another that pointless in this case?

Nope you don´t miss anything and this is why most sensible dms treat the rules as guidelines and not as something set in stone

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 10:25 AM
Rest includes sleep, not vice versa.

I thought it was the other way round- you can have "restful calm" without sleeping, but you can't have sleep, without resting (for the duration of your period of sleep, at least)?

aeauseth
2010-09-16, 10:36 AM
Quoting the FAQ:


A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a
ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that.

So a Wizard type could cast ALL of his spells. Rest 8 hours, cast ALL his spells, rest 8 hours, repeat... Effectively shooting his/her wad 3 times a day!

If true this is just one more reason why a wizard is Tier 1 and a sorcerer is Tier 2.

Yuki Akuma
2010-09-16, 10:42 AM
Quoting the FAQ:


A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a
ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that.

So a Wizard type could cast ALL of his spells. Rest 8 hours, cast ALL his spells, rest 8 hours, repeat... Effectively shooting his/her wad 3 times a day!

If true this is just one more reason why a wizard is Tier 1 and a sorcerer is Tier 2.

His class table says "spells per day".

Morph Bark
2010-09-16, 02:45 PM
Warforged aren't overpowered. Dwarves and (especially) humans are still better.

Exactly, it isn't overpowered at all. :smallwink:

Marnath
2010-09-16, 02:55 PM
Exactly, it isn't overpowered at all. :smallwink:

That's not really applicable, because warforged don't sleep at all, so they definately need to rest 8 hours. The arguement here is that condensing required sleep into 2 hours does/does not shorten the required rest period accordingly.

Bobmufin52
2010-09-16, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the responses everyone.

I was thinking that the ring didn’t let you get spells back after only 2 hours, but I wasn’t 100% sure and didn’t want to make a ruling without seeing some other opinions; that, and my player really doesn’t like take an answer of “no” without some sort of fight... >.>

Anyway, my player has decided not to take the ring since it won’t let him do the whole get spells back in 2 hours thing. However, this thread has brought the item Heward’s Fortifying Bedroll to my attention. I showed that to him and he seemed slightly interested, and I’m willing to let the item work as written in the book, so it looks like it everyone gets what they want in the end. lol

Fax Celestis
2010-09-16, 02:58 PM
I thought it was the other way round- you can have "restful calm" without sleeping, but you can't have sleep, without resting (for the duration of your period of sleep, at least)?

What you have described (can rest without sleeping, can't sleep without resting) is indeed "Rest includes sleep, but not vice versa."

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 03:01 PM
It was the "not vice versa" that was puzzling me- since that would be:

"Sleep does not include rest"- which can be interpreted as

"When you are sleeping, you are not resting".

Zherog
2010-09-16, 03:07 PM
I think Sage Advice said something about this in Dragon- but I'm not sure if Sage Advice is as well regarded as FAQ.

I'm guessing that you're not aware of the fact that the FAQ is just a compilation of Sage Advice answers?

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 03:15 PM
I've heard that- but I wasn't sure if some were answers that did not appear in Dragon Magazine- having come out after Dragon stopped being published by Paizo.

Morph Bark
2010-09-16, 03:20 PM
That's not really applicable, because warforged don't sleep at all, so they definately need to rest 8 hours. The arguement here is that condensing required sleep into 2 hours does/does not shorten the required rest period accordingly.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about that. I am aware that "rest" and "sleep" are not directly interchangeable in the DnD rules. I simply made an earlier somewhat-joking statement to the OP's question. That's all.

Fax Celestis
2010-09-16, 03:38 PM
I've heard that- but I wasn't sure if some were answers that did not appear in Dragon Magazine- having come out after Dragon stopped being published by Paizo.

They're from the Sage Advice column on the WotC site.

hamishspence
2010-09-16, 03:41 PM
I see. I was wondering if Dragon Sage Advice was regarded differently from WoTC sage advice- being in a Paizo source- or if every one of those from Dragon Magazine has appeared online at the WoTC site as well.

Zherog
2010-09-16, 03:54 PM
The Sage Advice column from Dragon Magazine was first written by Skip Williams, and when he moved on it was taken over by Andy Collins. So it's always been a WotC source.