[Exalted 2E] Infernals and Abyssals

[Zodiac]

So, I just recently got into Exalted lately and I was wondering about Infernals and Abyssals. Namely how their fluff is nearly exactly the same. I do understand the fluff difference between Deathlords and Yozi, but both Abyssals and Infernals are described as "dark mirrors" of Solars who (Abyssals and Infernals) have made deals with the devil (albeit different ones). The major difference as far as I can see (admittedly I haven't read too deeply into either of their sourcebooks) is that Infernals tend to be more straight out "bad guys" than Abyssals.

I'm just wondering what thematic purpose there is to have two groups that fulfill the same niche. Why couldn't Yozi just use Abyssals and call it a day?

[Terazul]

Yozis want Creation to be Hell, so they can go back to it.
Neverborn want Creation to not exist so they can also not exist. Existing sucks.

They don't really have the same goals at all. "Might as well be the same" to the mortals living in Creation, but to everyone else? No. You can be a good guy Infernal, you can satisfy your Urge every now and then and then going back to being a standup fellow who is sometimes a jerk. Being a good Abyssal is relatively difficult, as the Resonance you build up will gradually destroy everything you tried to save anyway. An Infernal could eventually get strong enough to kick the Yozi they're working for in the face and then laugh about it. An Abyssal is in chains for eternity (aside from the whole Solar Redemption thing, and Ink Monkeys did put out a thing on how to be an independent Abyssal).

Also Mechanically, they're way different. There's also half as many Infernals, as they got the short end of the stick on the Jade Prison deal. Basically just read the intro fluff a bit more (yes I know, there's alot of it). I felt the same way at first, but the Abyssals grew on me; I can sometimes even see their "win" condition from a sympathetic light. S'crazy.

[Yuki Akuma]

Abyssals are Solar's set in reverse. Many of their charms are the same, but reversed in some way, and they run on Death Essence rather than living Essence.

Green Sun Princes, meanwhile, are corrupted in a different way. They're basically made into very small Primordials, with a Solar Exaltation as a sort of chassis. Their charms do not mirror Solar or Abyssal charms. They have the same affinity as Solars with Sorcery, but have no affinity with Necromancy (unless they take a specific Ebon Dragon charm).

As for why Yozis don't use Abyssals... The Yozis are really really freaked out by the Neverborn. They do not like them. They would never use their tools.

Green Sun Princes do not tend to be more "straight out bad guys" than Abyssals. In fact, it's far easier for GSPs to be heroes - just pretend to be a bad B-movie villain every now and then to keep your Limit down and you're good.

Abyssals who act heroic have a tendency to explode.

Final point: no, they're not Solars who've made a deal with the devil. Those would be Akuma. Abyssals and Green Sun Princes have no choice in the matter.

[Arbane]

Abyssals and Green Sun Princes have no choice in the matter.

Well, they _had_ a choice to say "no, thank you" when the corrupted Exaltation came a-calling, but after that...yeah, they're kind of stuck.

[Yuki Akuma]

Maybe I should have said their Exaltations have no choice in the matter.

Basically I meant that an Abyssal is, by his very nature, a servant of the Neverborn. (Well. Not really. He'll snap right back to being a Solar if his Monstrance of Celestial Portion is destroyed, but...). And Green Sun Princes are, by their very nature, servants of the Yozis. (In fact, GSPs are in many ways facets of the Yozis... albeit not a part of their soul hierarchies.)

[Zodiac]

Thanks, I guess I conflated Akuma and GSPs when I skimmed through the book. I guess I'll have to pay more attention to fluff the next time around. :smallredface:

I just found it odd there were two mirror Exalts of Solars, but it makes more sense now.

EDIT: The mentioning of Solars in the OP as the ones who make a deal with the devil was a typo.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fun fact: Akuma can be anything. Anything at all. Solar? Lunar? Abyssal? Mortal? The Yozis care not.

(Well, the Abyssal will creep them the hell out, but.)

[Kylarra]

Maybe I should have said their Exaltations have no choice in the matter.

Basically I meant that an Abyssal is, by his very nature, a servant of the Neverborn. (Well. Not really. He'll snap right back to being a Solar if his Monstrance of Celestial Portion is destroyed, but...). And Green Sun Princes are, by their very nature, servants of the Yozis. (In fact, GSPs are in many ways facets of the Yozis... albeit not a part of their soul hierarchies.)Does an abyssal really revert when the MoCP is destroyed? I was under the impression that it would still be an abyssal exaltation, just that it would go to Lytek instead of back to the MoCP (or get captured by a necromancer).

[Yuki Akuma]

Does an abyssal really revert when the MoCP is destroyed? I was under the impression that it would still be an abyssal exaltation, just that it would go to Lytek instead of back to the MoCP (or get captured by a necromancer).

Well, it's one of the suggested outcomes, at any rate.

[Kylarra]

Well, it's one of the suggested outcomes, at any rate.Fair enough. Maybe the converted ones switch back.

[Teln]

Destroying the Monstrance does absolutely nothing to redeem an Abyssal in and of itself. Each Abyssal has to find his or her own path back to the light. Think of it as a fallen paladin trying to get back on his deity's good side in a setting without Atonement spells.

[Terazul]

Destroying the Monstrance is just the first step if you want it to be. But destroying it doesn't make you magically become a Solar. ...Magically becoming a Solar however does make it explode, if you somehow achieve redemption (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Answers15#Abyssal_Redemption).

[Yuki Akuma]

I can see destroying it being the last step in redemption as well.

[golentan]

Fair enough. Maybe the converted ones switch back.

There's some debate as to what happens. I remember hearing that the latest official word is that the abyssal exaltation remains an abyssal exaltation, removed from the monstrance and any form of control by the deathlords (and possibly the neverborn) but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Alternatively, it may go straight back to being a solar. Or do something funky.

But yeah, the best way I heard to think of of the difference between Abyssals, Green Sun Princes, and Akuma is to imagine the solar exaltation as a room with the lights on. For an abyssal, they switched the lights off and smashed the bulb. For an akuma, they brought in some new furnishings by a really freaky designer. And for a GSP, they smashed out everything except the structural supports and had the same designer build them a new room.

[Xefas]

I think the biggest and most important difference, which hasn't even been mentioned in this thread yet, is actually quite simple.

Infernals are way more awesome. :smalltongue:

What do Abyssals have? Punk goth music and giant zombie warstriders?

Infernals have Metal and Evangelion warstriders.

Wooo, demon pride. DEMON PRIDE!

[Yuki Akuma]

Having anything inspired by Evangelion is a huge black mark against Infernals.

[Xefas]

Having anything inspired by Evangelion is a huge black mark against Infernals. Black like their Metal - like Black Metal against the Infernals' screaming Black Metal hearts. Wooo, Demon Pride! Yozi Instrumentality! Woooo!

Couldn't agree more.

My last Infernal acquired some Soulsteel Superheavy Plate from a downed Abyssal, and after he baptized it in vitriol, we ruled that instead of it wailing in torment like normal Soulsteel, the Vitriolic Soulsteel did Death Metal grunts/growls/roars, etc.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Don't misquote me.

[Gensh]

There's some debate as to what happens. I remember hearing that the latest official word is that the abyssal exaltation remains an abyssal exaltation, removed from the monstrance and any form of control by the deathlords (and possibly the neverborn) but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Alternatively, it may go straight back to being a solar. Or do something funky.

If I'm not mistaken, an Abyssal who's able to get free from not just his deathlord but also his neverborn still gets screwed over by resonance, as Oblivion itself dishes out the punishment. Of course, what that implies is something else entirely...


Wooo, demon pride. DEMON PRIDE!

Malfeas forever! Long live the king, baby!

[golentan]

If I'm not mistaken, an Abyssal who's able to get free from not just his deathlord but also his neverborn still gets screwed over by resonance, as Oblivion itself dishes out the punishment. Of course, what that implies is something else entirely...

I'm going to go with "Nothing Good."

Also, Infernals > Abyssals because their victory conditions do not prevent any further epicness from occurring, just puts them in charge of the new evil epicness for whatever follows up.

Plus, necrophilia disturbs me, while Infernals have hot nuns. :smalltongue:

[Delusion]

That and infernals have Adojaran excellency + Thus spake Adorjan (Might have mixed that up with another charm though?) whcih means that if you stunt randomly enough, the opponent takes damage.

Sneak attack former ally = he takes damage
Compliment enemy with a social attack totally out of nowhere = he takes damage
Moon him = he taes damage.

[Yuki Akuma]

"So Speaks Adorjan".

But yeah, Adorjan's excellencies are fun. Heck, her charms are fun. I love the fact that with high enough Essence and Running To Forever you can run while sleeping.

With that and Murder Is Meat you can literally just keep running and killing stuff forever.