OOTS #747 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[John Cribati]

Let the room stop chairing Haley. Let the room stop chairing.

[Aron Times]

Out-logicked by Elan.

Ouch.

[RandomEncounter]

I still think Elan's father is respecting his family, despite being evil. I mean we do already know he's evil.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Wow. Just how drunk is she?

Let's hope she still stays smart enough to hold her tongue...

[VampireRot]

lol

Great comic. Liked the room chairing so much Haley had to sit down in a spin. :smalltongue:

[John Cribati]

Haley's apparently a stupid drunk, or else Elan's only half as dumb as he acts.

I think I'll go with the first option.

[Monzach]

I'm worried that Haley's liver gives in before she has drunk enough to forget that logic-fail.... :smalleek:

[Badgercloak]

Outlogicked by Elan? What is the world coming to?! :smallbiggrin:

Great comic Giant. HOOAH!

[Yuki Akuma]

I like how Haley just swore by Thor's beard there. She's taking this conversion seriously.

[Deme]

I still think Elan's father is respecting his family, despite being evil. I mean we do already know he's evil.

I hope so, too. It'd be a sweet subversion if he walks up to the edge of doing the dramatically appropriate thing, knows exactly what he's doing... and then decides he'd rather do what's better for his family than do the obvious, genre-savvy-appropriate, ala #670, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), IMO the sweetest Elan x Haley moment ever. It'd be cute to see that mirrored...

Do I think it's going to happen? I'm calling it a very slim hope, but it'd be very nice.

[Urist McDwarf]

I like how Haley just swore by Thor's beard there. She's taking this conversion seriously.

Or, y'know, shes drunk

[maxon]

"200-foot-tall flaming letters."

"I believe I could research a spell for that."

I bet. Love V.

Also hummous. Of course, what else? And delicious, especially compared to Phoenix Liver Pate.

[Dr.Epic]

Haley's drunk and referencing Thor in everyday speech! I think she may surpass Felicia Day as my favorite hot, redheaded gamer chick.

[Mertseger]

Great comic! I have to say, I did imagine drunk Haley rather differently though.

I'm curious as to what alignments my kitchen spices are now.. What would a lawful spice taste like? :smallconfused:


Haley's drunk and referencing Thor in everyday speech! I think she may surpass Felicia Day as my favorite hot, redheaded gamer chick.

Blasphemer!

[RebelRogue]

Chaotic spices? Those sound kind of dangerous :smallbiggrin:

[Kranerian]

Great comic! I have to say, I did imagine drunk Haley rather differently though.

Haley's drunk and referencing Thor in everyday speech! I think she may surpass Felicia Day as my favorite hot, redheaded gamer chick.




Blasphemer!

Now now, we can all get along. Just imagine an OotS movie with Haley played by Felicia Day.

...I'll be in my bunk.

[Capt Spanner]

No matter how dumb Elan seems, he always has some internal logic, and sometimes it works.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

[JoeSkull]

Im surprised how drunk she got, it seems to me that people with such trust issues would never get drunk, especially with all these new people around.

[Dr.Epic]

Now now, we can all get along. Just imagine an OotS movie with Haley played by Felicia Day.

...I'll be in my bunk.

And Elan played by Neil Patrick Harris.

[geekwraith]

Till I read "chairing" I thought Haley was making a Sit-n-Spin reference. Heh.

[Stmr5000]

Pro-tip, Haley. When you get out logicked by Elan, you are doing the wrong thing.

[SaintRidley]

That's pretty damned drunk right there.

[Knaight]

Excellent comic. The hummus joke in particular was amazing.

[Nevitan]

Oooooh a lover's spat!

[Gift Jeraff]

I really liked this comic.

Also, am I the only one that thought Durkon was telling Elan his dad is bad news and/or read V's "forty spices" as "farty spices"?

[Haruki-kun]

Ah. Pointing out redundant arguments is my favorite form of argument. :smallcool:

Awesome comic.

[derfenrirwolv]

ELAN out logiced someone?

ITS NAAAAALE!

[Ted The Bug]

Well that was a pretty great birthday present!
Tho I'm surprised that the cutaway to Roy and Belkar was only two panels.

[Mauve Shirt]

Love it! :smallbiggrin:
Also, have I mentioned I really like Haley's dress?

[mucat]

I loved this one! Almost every panel made me laugh. Haley's bright cheerful "I got drunk and converted religions!" and swearing reflexively on Thor now, V's dry spice-related sarcasm and "I believe I could research a spell for that", and of course the "out-logic'd by Elan" punchline. Oh yeah, and right before the punchline, when Haley runs out of counterarguments and without hesitating, pirouettes and steals Durkon's beer. Even 1d3+2 sheets to the wind and defeated in a battle of wits by an unarmed man, she is at least decisive!

[Obani]

Too many lulz for my poor brain to take!
Seriously heavy on the funny.


Now now, we can all get along. Just imagine an OotS movie with Haley played by Felicia Day.

...I'll be in my bunk.

And Elan played by Neil Patrick Harris.

*sarcasm* Don't be stupid, NPH and Felicia Day would be terrible in a movie together *sarcasm*

[mootoall]

Chaotic spices? Those sound kind of dangerous :smallbiggrin:

You may cast explosive runes, but I'll cast explosive diarrhea.

[StClair]

*sarcasm* Don't be stupid, NPH and Felicia Day would be terrible in a movie together *sarcasm*
Also, Elan's a bard. NPH probably can't even sing. :smallwink:

[Zxo]

Love the idea of chaotic spices. I'm waiting for an exhaustive food alignment chart :D

[MammonAzrael]

Hahahaha......fantastic. :smallbiggrin: I was thinking the exact same thing right before I read the last panel. Damn Elan has grown competent lately.

[Hardcore]

Weeee! New comic!

Pardon me for expressing my satisfaction before reading it. I know it will be excellent:)

Trust the Dwarf to know how much you need to drink to get to the different levels of intoxication.

[Janus]

Can anyone remind me who Draketooth and Toormuck are? Those names just aren't clicking for me at the moment.

[Mando Knight]

Haley, I'm not sure there's enough beer in the palace to make you drunk enough to forget losing to Elan in a logical argument. At the very least, Durkon should have new appreciation for the constitution of female humans.

[Crisis21]

ELAN out logiced someone?

ITS NAAAAALE!

No, it's not Nale. The world is just coming to an end that's all.:smallbiggrin:


Can anyone remind me who Draketooth and Toormuck are? Those names just aren't clicking for me at the moment.

They are the last names of Girard and Serini (the last two, potentially, living members of the 'Order of the Scribble') respectively.

[Kareasint]

Can anyone remind me who Draketooth and Toormuck are? Those names just aren't clicking for me at the moment.

Order of the Scribble members. The OOTS is looking for them to locate the last two gates.

[Kairamek]

And yet another fine example of Sending in action. I know everyone's ability to work with Sending is largely a subtle running gag against Nale, seeing as the first time Sending was used in the comic he said 25 words was too short for anyone, but darn it these sentences are beautifully crafted. Every time I see one I have to count the words cause it doesn't seem possible to fit that much info into 25 words, and every time it's exactly 25. Truely impressive.

[Kish]

Can anyone remind me who Draketooth and Toormuck are? Those names just aren't clicking for me at the moment.
Girard Draketooth and Serini Toormuck.

[Conuly]

Wow, this "thinking" thing is really working for Elan! Let's hope he keeps it up.

[Valifor]

man, great update, loved V's comment on the alignment of the spices.

and am i the only one liking Durkon and Elan more and more, while liking Haley less and less?

[Deuce]

Wow. Just how drunk is she?

Let's hope she still stays smart enough to hold her tongue...

If not, I'm sure Elan can find some way to hold it.

/Hey, it could still be PG
//13
///ish

[Raging Gene Ray]

Or, y'know, shes drunk

Exactly. Taking this conversion VERY seriously.

[Ranzunar]

While it is very likely that Elan has Intelligence as his dump stat, it is possible that his Wisdom score could be close to average so not too much of a surprise that he could outwit a drunk Haley. What's really going to be bad is Haley with a hangover come morning. I can just imagine that they are woken up early to go to the arena only to see Roy and Belkar in a crazy battle royal and everyone depending on Haley to come up with a plan when she can barely think straight. Then Elan has to think of something and everyone is reluctant yet astounded by its marginal success.

[Dr.Epic]

While it is very likely that Elan has Intelligence as his dump stat, it is possible that his Wisdom score could be close to average so not too much of a surprise that he could outwit a drunk Haley. What's really going to be bad is Haley with a hangover come morning. I can just imagine that they are woken up early to go to the arena only to see Roy and Belkar in a crazy battle royal and everyone depending on Haley to come up with a plan when she can barely think straight. Then Elan has to think of something and everyone is reluctant yet astounded by its marginal success.

It's implied in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) his wis score is low.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, Elan's a bard. NPH probably can't even sing. :smallwink:
Even given sarcasm, this is territory away from which any denizen of the world in general should shy.:smallannoyed:

[herrhauptmann]

Even given sarcasm, this is territory away from which any denizen of the world in general should shy.:smallannoyed:

How about David Bowie sings, NPH lip-syncs? (Was just looking at the 'Stat Jareth' thread)

[mootoall]

Even given sarcasm, this is territory away from which any denizen of the world in general should shy.:smallannoyed:

Because all blasphemy, sarcastic or not, will be punished with a freeze ray stopping your heart.

[Marnath]

At the very least, Durkon should have new appreciation for the constitution of female humans.

And rightfully so, if I was that drunk I wouldn't be able to stand much less carry on a mostly coherent conversation. Not that i've ever been drunk, or female for that matter. :smalltongue:

[theinsulabot]

that was one of the funniest strips we have had in a good long while

[Petrocorus]

This comic is awesome,
i loved the spice joke.

But why V wasn't in the dinner?

[rewinn]

when Haley runs out of counterarguments and without hesitating, pirouettes and steals Durkon's beer. Even 1d3+2 sheets to the wind and defeated in a battle of wits by an unarmed man, she is at least decisive!
.. and still a skillful thief even with penalties for drunkeness. Shouldn't there some major minuses to stealing a dwarf's beer?


This comic is awesome,
i loved the spice joke.

But why V wasn't in the dinner?

I don't think it's stated in-comic, but during a major feast is a pretty good time to cast spells you don't want the Evil Overlord to notice.

[JonestheSpy]

It's implied in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) his wis score is low.

I always thought the opposite - low Wisdom was his stumbling block.

I kinda think Elan suffers from the "Why go for an A+?" syndrome Kyle Baker describes in his wonderful graphic novel, Why I Hate Saturn. Essentially, Elan has gotten by on his high Charisma for so long that he's only recently needed to use his Intelligence to survive without any real problems. He has a brain, he just spent most of his life not needing to use it much.

[Kish]

.. and still a skillful thief even with penalties for drunkeness. Shouldn't there some major minuses to stealing a dwarf's beer?
Like taking candy from a baby.

(Not that I've ever tried taking candy from a baby, but just imagine how loudly the baby would actually scream.)

I think Elan has bad Wisdom and Intelligence both, and Roy and Vaarsuvius agree with me (although Vaarsuvius' agreement fills me with shame).

[Marnath]

This comic is awesome,
i loved the spice joke.

But why V wasn't in the dinner?

Because he's anti-social? Lots of people hate crowds, especially studious types like he is.

[tcrudisi]

And Elan played by Neil Patrick Harris.

I have to disagree. NPH should definitely play V. I can't explain my logic for it other than I just can't see NPH playing such an unintelligent character. I think he'd make an excellent V (and I always picture V as female in my minds-eye).

To the Giant: excellent comic. Seriously funny and I enjoyed it. You seriously have me wondering if Haley is right or wrong to hold back the information. Normally I'd trust Haley's instincts, but everything else has me wondering if she is wrong. I love it.

[Tira-chan]

Thanks to this thread, I had to go listen to my favorite Dr. Horrible songs (read: the entire soundtrack) again, to avoid going around with song fragments stuck in my head.

I'd say Elan's problem is that he has average intelligence, but very low wisdom, which is part of what makes him so dangerous - he's creative, but without any common sense. In this case, it's not so much even that Haley's insanely drunk, as that she tends to rely on her gut instinct. Combined with her general distrust of everyone, she probably doesn't have a logical reason for not trusting Tarquin, and is too drunk to make a Bluff check.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean she's wrong. If Star Trek has taught me anything, it's that logic isn't always right.

[Crisis21]

Normally I'd trust Haley's instincts, but everything else has me wondering if she is wrong. I love it.

I am wondering this too. The problem is that whether or not Haley is right to withhold information from Elan's dad depends on information that we just don't know yet. My hat is off to you Rich. Masterfully done.

[Nate the Snake]

While I agree that the "out-logicked by Elan" joke is hilarious, I think Elan out-logicked himself at the same time.

As far as I can tell, Elan's calling her on circular logic: Haley doesn't trust Tarquin because he's taking his time helping them when lives are at stake, even though he doesn't know lives are at stake because Haley doesn't trust him. However, the way Elan phrases his counter-argument doesn't make that clear. It would make more sense if he had said, "You don't trust him partly because of how he's acting when he doesn't know lives are at stake."

Or maybe he out-logicked me too. Am I missing something?

[Elfin]

Out-logicked by Elan? That's quite an accomplishment.

[Acero]

V's Expressive Flaming wall of Text...

[Asthix]

Of alignment and spices: Curse you, foul cardamom!!


This comic is awesome,
i loved the spice joke.

But why V wasn't in the dinner?
A wizard did it.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Woo comic! Epic fantasmic comic! :smallbiggrin:

I still remain utterly convinced that Lord T is evil ...

What with him being on the Villain poster and all ...

[brionl]

Spice Alignment Table:
Lawful - Bay Leaf
Neutral - Vanilla
Chaotic - Chili Powder
Good- Cinnamon
Evil - Parsley

[Knaight]

Fair enough.

[Vemynal]

I am wondering this too. The problem is that whether or not Haley is right to withhold information from Elan's dad depends on information that we just don't know yet. My hat is off to you Rich. Masterfully done.

I'm thinking that Elan's dad knows something up and is doing these actions until he is in on it. Once he knows he might join them or not. His character doesn't know because he doesn't know the situation yet.

My bet? Elan's dad will help them out, being the evil ally equivalent of the azure guard. After all- if the world ends Elan's dad stands to lose everything

But once this thing with Roy will be the wrench in the works

[abbott.e]

Chaotic spices? Those sound kind of dangerous :smallbiggrin:

They're the only ones Belkar will use.

Incidentally, has Haley got a Barettte on each side of her head? Speaking as a bloke with little appreciation of women's accessorising, isn't it usual to only wear one?

[Valifor]

I'd say Elan's problem is that he has average intelligence, but very low wisdom, which is part of what makes him so dangerous - he's creative, but without any common sense. In this case, it's not so much even that Haley's insanely drunk, as that she tends to rely on her gut instinct. Combined with her general distrust of everyone, she probably doesn't have a logical reason for not trusting Tarquin, and is too drunk to make a Bluff check.


that's exactly what I've been saying. she has no reason to distrust him. no good one at least, it's just her being paranoid and distrustful of anyone and everyone

[Ronan]

So, mighty Giant, still doing number gags :P?

This one lefta a Jumbo 747 impression

Elan's getting to be a big boy, making some nice mature dialogs. Great comic, he outsmarted Haley :smallbiggrin:

[Samuraiko]

I can definitely buy Felicia Day as Haley...

... does this mean Amy Okuda gets to play Miko? :D

And I love the idea of "V's Expressive Flaming Wall of Text" as a spell.

[Bernemer]

I totally disapprove of the positive references to the effects of alcohol in this one. Officially.

Privately, I can't help but ROFLBTC! :)

[mucat]

I totally disapprove of the positive references to the effects of alcohol in this one. Officially.

Er..."Elan will outlogic you" is positive?

[DaveMcW]

I think Elan has bad Wisdom and Intelligence both, and Roy and Vaarsuvius agree with me (although Vaarsuvius' agreement fills me with shame).

The Mind Flayer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) agrees too.

[awibs]

I less than three drunk haley.

I kind of want to draw her in 3-d realism now.

[dps]

Out-logicked by Elan.

Ouch.

The bad (sad?) part is that she's using the same line of reasoning that she used before she got drunk.

[RMS Oceanic]

You know, I really hope Haley turns out to be wrong on this occasion. With someone like Tarquin, who has happily switched loyalties a dozen or so times to remain the power behind the throne, it would be super easy to have him scheming something sinister to take advantage of the sudden appearance of his son. It's almost too obvious a path to take. I think Haley not telling the "Lawful types" about her father, and then this act for Tarquin, is demonstrating a crippling lack of trust. When striving to thwart someone as dangerous as Xykon, all those who stand against him need to have faith in each other. Waryness is one thing, but I think she has to learn when to open up fully, and having Tarquin turn out to be at least partially helpful to their cause would be the next stage in her development.

[Theodoric]

Wait, who were Draketooth and Miss Toormuck again?

[ZaneLaCoix]

NPH as Elan? Sure!
Felicia Day as Hailey? Why not!

I'm also not sure which made me laugh harder... This thread, or the comic.

As for V's little quip about the spell. Wouldn't a simple Illusion spell do justice?

[Themrys]

Elan's dad is evil, obviously.
Maybe he is loyal to his son, but whether that is enough for him to get two people who didn't have their papers out of prison...I am not sure.

Maybe, if V pretends to have fallen in love with Roy while watching him in the arena (you know, the "catch the eye of a noblewoman"-thing), they get to visit the prison and free Roy and Belkar. Because Tarquin is absolutely that kind of person who would want to give Roy the opportunity to reject amourous advances.

I agree, it is somewhat strange for someone like Haley to become drunk. However, she doesn't seem to have lost her self-control. And maybe she thinks it is necessary to get drunk if you just converted to a dwarven religion.

[TheBlackShadow]

Moral of the story: Drink responsibly, or your Wisdom and Intelligence will end up even worse than Elan's. :smalleek:

[Stabbey]

Great comic, very funny and interesting. I like the possible evolution of Elan into not such a complete idiot.

But no one else seems to have noticed that the table went missing. :smallconfused:

[Themrys]

Oh...and it is kind of cute that Elan goes and orders another round of beer so Haley can forget he has outlogicked her. :smallsmile:

@stabbey: It is a big room. They moved away from the table.

[137beth]

Great one! I don't think ANY amount can cause her to forget that:smallsmile:

[Janus]

They are the last names of Girard and Serini (the last two, potentially, living members of the 'Order of the Scribble') respectively.


Order of the Scribble members. The OOTS is looking for them to locate the last two gates.


Girard Draketooth and Serini Toormuck.
Thanks, everyone.


Wait, who were Draketooth and Miss Toormuck again?
Glad to know that I'm not the only one who didn't recognize their last names.

[Themrys]

Great one! I don't think ANY amount can cause her to forget that:smallsmile:

Durkon says she needs at least two more, and he is the expert, isn't he?

[Asthix]

But no one else seems to have noticed that the table went missing. :smallconfused:

You forgot that Haley's chair is spinning!

[Maralais]

And Elan played by Neil Patrick Harris.

by doing that, one would make Elan way too smart than he is...

Or if he could act as Elan the way he acted as pre-suit Barney, THAT would be interesting...

[pendell]

Applause for the update speed.

I'm with Haley on this one. She seems to be the only one who recognize that Elan's father is Evil, and is taking appropriate precautions. Durkon seems to be hypnotized by the town's lawfulness, and Elan can't seem to understand that the man who fathered him also fathered Nale.

Still ... The Giant has already run a lawful good antagonist. Might there be such a thing as a lawful evil ally? They already have a chaotic EVIL halfling in the party.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Stabbey]

@stabbey: It is a big room. They moved away from the table.

Haley sat down because she was dizzy, then got up and moved to a new chair a few feet away for no reason?

Anyway, looking forward to when Tarquin takes Elan and Haley to watch a special exhibition match at the arena...

[Querzis]

I'm with Haley on this one. She seems to be the only one who recognize that Elan's father is Evil, and is taking appropriate precautions. Durkon seems to be hypnotized by the town's lawfulness, and Elan can't seem to understand that the man who fathered him also fathered Nale.

The fact that hes evil doesnt change anything. I'm sure Durkon realize that the empire as a whole is evil. It just really doesnt matter right now. Tarquin seems to really like seeing his son again, Malack is in good term with Durkon and they dont want the world to be destroyed either. They dont have to give the details but honestly: «we really have to find Draketooth for a quest that could destroy the world if we dont stop it» really isnt that hard to say, Tarquin doesnt want world destruction either and I'm pretty sure he would be able to tell Elan is not lying. As far as Tarquin know right now, they wanna find Draketooth to learn a new spell or some other stupid thing adventurers do.

The only reason Tarquin would have to betray his son at all would be to help Nale, his other son. Otherwise, having a son somewhere thats part of a strong group of adventurers (and that everyone saw in the festival in his honor) is a good political advantage. He has lots of reasons to help them and absolutely no reason to betray Elan and the others...or at least he didnt, Haley is giving him plenty of reasons with her paranoia.

[Blaznak]

Well, this is certainly reminiscent of one too many late night gaming session. I wonder how many pints Haley's imbibed so far?

[Morph Bark]

Oohh, BAM, Elan logic. :smallbiggrin:


Well, this is certainly reminiscent of one too many late night gaming session. I wonder how many pints Haley's imbibed so far?

Too. :smallwink:

[Garwain]

Don't worry Haley, Durkon surely can cast 'cleanse internal organs from alcohol intoxication' in the morning. Just be happy that Belkar isn't around to try and take advantage.

[littlekKID]

Yay hummus joke! (hummus sounds funny in English) :smallbiggrin:

[Mordaenor]

Now now, we can all get along. Just imagine an OotS movie with Haley played by Felicia Day.

...I'll be in my bunk.

Really, is there any doubt that Haley WOULDN'T be played by Felicia Day? I suppose that's a conversation for another thread.

[Petrocorus]

I have to disagree. NPH should definitely play V. I can't explain my logic for it other than I just can't see NPH playing such an unintelligent character. I think he'd make an excellent V (and I always picture V as female in my minds-eye).

To the Giant: excellent comic. Seriously funny and I enjoyed it. You seriously have me wondering if Haley is right or wrong to hold back the information. Normally I'd trust Haley's instincts, but everything else has me wondering if she is wrong. I love it.
Judging by some episode of HiMYM, NPH could perfectly play an androgynous character. But in all the Casting thread i've read, barley everybody is willing to see him as Elan/Nale.

Concerning Tarquin, i thing there are some reason not to trust him, he's evil, he's Nale's father, and he raised him while he didn't raise Elan, so we can judge what father he's been judging by Nale's morality.
Of course, he probably could help them find Girard, but who knows if will not try to take the gates for his own.




A wizard did it.

Nice one!

[Raith]

As far as the discussion of Tarquin's motives goes, I'm really hoping that he's going to turn out to be a sort of foil to Miko: She was a LG character who was off her rocker and a genuine enemy to the Order, despite her (originally) good alignment; Tarquin could be a stable, genuine friend and aid to the Order, despite his apparant evil alignment.

Also, Elan's sash is jumpy tonight. It's probably not helping Haley with her dizziness.

[Marnath]

I'm with Haley on this one. She seems to be the only one who recognize that Elan's father is Evil, and is taking appropriate precautions. Durkon seems to be hypnotized by the town's lawfulness, and Elan can't seem to understand that the man who fathered him also fathered Nale.


I agree, I get the feeling she's the only one who sees the danger again this time. Wouldn't be the first time she's been ignored, either. LIke when she had a bad feeling about the linear guild and they all brushed her off. Guess what, Elan almost DIED because of that. The OoTS really need to grow a sense motive. :smalltongue:

[Prospekt]

The Mind Flayer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) agrees too.
You can't say that, it's trademarked by Magical Knights!

I don't know if Rich is much into the scenario of cliches, but he did make a Darth Vader joke recently with Tarquin and Elan. I'm not sure what to think (which is what makes this comic great), but I'd prefer to see Tarquin being helpful in the end, I guess. But that might be too boring.

[ref]

http://thetural.com/360/user_images/eb857576dd36231e1541d0d5651336f1.png (http://thetural.com/360)

[Valifor]

I agree, I get the feeling she's the only one who sees the danger again this time. Wouldn't be the first time she's been ignored, either. LIke when she had a bad feeling about the linear guild and they all brushed her off. Guess what, Elan almost DIED because of that. The OoTS really need to grow a sense motive. :smalltongue:

and at the time, they had no real/actual/logical reason to distrust the linear guild either. yes, it turned out bad for them, but that doesn't mean Haley wasn't and isn't overly paranoid. she still has no real reason for her distrust in either case.

edit: ok, epic achievement there i must say

[Marnath]

and at the time, they had no real/actual/logical reason to distrust the linear guild either. yes, it turned out bad for them, but that doesn't mean Haley wasn't and isn't overly paranoid. she still has no real reason for her distrust in either case.

edit: ok, epic achievement there i must say

.......that's my point.:smallconfused:
Just because she can't put her gut feeling into a logical sounding reason is no excuse to ignore her intuition when it has proven correct in the past. After all, it's only paranoia if you're wrong.

[Kish]

.......that's my point.:smallconfused:
Just because she can't put her gut feeling into a logical sounding reason is no excuse to ignore her intuition when it has proven correct in the past. After all, it's only paranoia if you're wrong.
It's also proven* incorrect. Just not on-camera. Elan's father is certainly evil, but Haley's Sense Motive is no better than the rest of the Order. She just assumes "untrustworthy" when Roy, Elan, and Durkon assume "trustworthy."

*Haley, of course, would debate this, protesting that tips are totally a scam and pouches are for knives.

[pendell]

It's also proven* incorrect. Just not on-camera. Elan's father is certainly evil, but Haley's Sense Motive is no better than the rest of the Order. She just assumes "untrustworthy" when Roy, Elan, and Durkon assume "trustworthy."

*Haley, of course, would debate this, protesting that tips are totally a scam and pouches are for knives.

Haley may be overly paranoid, but the four times she's spoken up on camera so far..

1) Don't trust the Linear Guild.
2) Xykon is not any of the three skeletons with amulets.
3) Don't go into Greysky city.
4) Don't trust Tarquin. He's evil.

... she has been correct 4 for 4.

Given that track record, I say that when your double-digit level rogue's spidey sense starts tingling, you should listen to what she has to say. Instead Durkon and Elan both pooh-pooh her concerns as if she was some zeroth-level food server rather than a seasoned adventurer who's been in tougher positions than either of them have been in and survived.

I find their contempt for Haley's opinions appalling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Marnath]

Haley may be overly paranoid, but the four times she's spoken up on camera so far..

1) Don't trust the Linear Guild.
2) Xykon is not any of the three skeletons with amulets.
3) Don't go into Greysky city.
4) Don't trust Tarquin. He's evil.

... she has been correct 4 for 4.

Given that track record, I say that when your double-digit level rogue's spidey sense starts tingling, you should listen to what she has to say. Instead Durkon and Elan both pooh-pooh her concerns as if she was some zeroth-level food server rather than a seasoned adventurer who's been in tougher positions than either of them have been in and survived.

I find their contempt for Haley's opinions appalling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well stated, sir. :smallsmile:

[Valifor]

Haley may be overly paranoid, but the four times she's spoken up on camera so far..

1) Don't trust the Linear Guild.
2) Xykon is not any of the three skeletons with amulets.
3) Don't go into Greysky city.
4) Don't trust Tarquin. He's evil.

... she has been correct 4 for 4.

Given that track record, I say that when your double-digit level rogue's spidey sense starts tingling, you should listen to what she has to say. Instead Durkon and Elan both pooh-pooh her concerns as if she was some zeroth-level food server rather than a seasoned adventurer who's been in tougher positions than either of them have been in and survived.

I find their contempt for Haley's opinions appalling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

ok, i'm going to break this down for each of your points.

1) that's a fairly decent point, but it doesn't really prove much. they had no reason to distrust the Linear Guild, she distrusted them, and they betrayed the order. that is true. but it was bound to happen if you look at it. if you go through life distrusting EVERYTHING, eventually something will go badly or you will be betrayed, so your paranoia OBVIOUSLY paid off *sarcasm*. that just means you're insanely paranoid and life happened to be just as insane. her correctly saying the guild was going to betray them was just a fluke waiting to happen when you distrust everybody.

2) she had actual REASONS for that! the whole "if they can make two copies why not three?" and it being "easy money" to try and fool a group of paladins, and knowing that Xykon is capable of freakin invisibility. that was hardly a gut reaction, it was using her knowledge and deductive reasoning skills to come to a good conclusion.

3) again, she had REASONS for that. there were people there she KNEW wanted to kill her, and they could have avoided the whole fiasco if she would have stopped being so closed off and just told Celia there were people there who wanted to kill her. again, hardly a gut reaction. (and before you go ranting about Celia's naivety, i know about it and don't personally like her for that reason. she and Haley are two opposite extremes, hence why they made such a good foil together)

4) this is exactly what we're debating about and should NOT be included in this list, since this has been far from proven. if Tarquin ends up stabbing Haley in the face or something, THEN it would be 4 for 4. until then, it's at the very best 3 of 4 or more accurately 3 for 3 since this one shouldn't even be included here.

my point is that for most of those, she's had reasons for what she thought, and wasn't simply trusting her gut. the one time her gut happened to be right does not make her paranoia always the best way to go. that's like saying if you guess one crazy, borderline insane plot twist in a tv show, then your instincts on what's going to happen in any story ever is trustworthy and must be correct, which is of course an absolutely insane notion.

[Marnath]

I love how you totally disregarded the fact that intuition is based in what you know and your deductive powers.

[Scarlet Knight]

Originally Posted by DaveMcW
The Mind Flayer agrees too.



You can't say that, it's trademarked by Magical Knights!


A-HEM! It's official name is "Squid-thingy" ! (It keeps spooky wizards away...)

[Valifor]

I love how you totally disregarded the fact that intuition is based in what you know and your deductive powers.

nt in her case, alot of the time. in some cases, intuition is based on that. such as guessing that Xykon wasn't one of the decoys. but other times, such as this time, her "intuition" is just her being incredibly paranoid without any actual backing. you assume that when people have a gut feeling, it's always for a reason. that is not so.

[Marnath]

nt in her case, alot of the time. in some cases, intuition is based on that. such as guessing that Xykon wasn't one of the decoys. but other times, such as this time, her "intuition" is just her being incredibly paranoid without any actual backing. you assume that when people have a gut feeling, it's always for a reason. that is not so.

Yes, she has no reason to think the guy who has traded sides based on money for a decade could possibly want to butter them up before backstabbing them. :smallannoyed: The man who effectively runs an evil empire couldn't possibly want to do anything but give them hugs and fluffy bunnies right? He couldn't POSSIBLY want to enslave them to add to the arena or inflict "mysterious circumstances" on them like his almost-a-dozen missing wives. She has more solid reason to mistrust this guy than anyone other than her old thieves guild.

[pendell]

4) this is exactly what we're debating about and should NOT be included in this list, since this has been far from proven. if Tarquin ends up stabbing Haley in the face or something, THEN it would be 4 for 4. until then, it's at the very best 3 of 4 or more accurately 3 for 3 since this one shouldn't even be included here.


He didn't stab her in the face but he DID knock her out a window.
In addition, I draw your attention to some other clues:

1) Item: Tarquin wears black and red spiky armor which practically screams "evil villain".
2) Item: Tarquin's chef prepares vivisected Pegasus. Tarquin ate at this banquet and seemed to have no problems with it.
3) Item: Tarquin is the right-hand general of an empire governed by a red dragon and a vizier who has no problem feeding innocent people to a dragon simply because they are of no immediate use.

The various little clues and tidbits, plus others I'm probably forgetting, should be enough for any character with an int above about 10 to deduce that A) There is a significant probability that this society is evil and B) therefore we cannot trust either Tarquin or the other officials in this Empire.

Haley's paranoia is not unjustified; unjustified paranoia would be something like walking into Mount Celestia and distrust people on sight for no reason. As it is, there are more than enough clues to throw up 'caution' flags for any reasonable character.

Plus, ISTR that Haley and company were just ambushed by bounty hunters. In a world where people really do hunt you, mistaken identity or no, a bit of paranoia is justified.

Haley gets all this. Durkon and Elan ignore this, and they pooh-pooh her when she speaks up. The level of Idiot Ball is astonishing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Themrys]

Haley thinking that they can't trust Tarquin -> completely sane and sensible.
He is evil, that's a fact. He may be able and even willing to help them, but that doesn't mean he can be trusted. They should be careful with what they tell him.

Haley thinking Tarquin should not know that they know Durkon -> probably paranoid, as I cannot imagine how that could make a difference.

[denthor]

Out logiced by Elan very funny

[brionl]

Haley thinking that they can't trust Tarquin -> completely sane and sensible.
He is evil, that's a fact. He may be able and even willing to help them, but that doesn't mean he can be trusted. They should be careful with what they tell him.

Haley thinking Tarquin should not know that they know Durkon -> probably paranoid, as I cannot imagine how that could make a difference.

Tarquin may be evil, but that doesn't mean he has to automatically oppose them. What benefit is it to him, if he kills them all, and the world is destroyed? The Order hasn't given him any reason to trust them. They are withholding major information from him, for all he knows they are out to get him. As far as we know, he has been totally upfront with them, from his POV their lying to him brands them as suspect.

Just like you shouldn't *ass*u*me* a lawful good person will be on their side, you shouldn't assume a lawful evil person will be against them.

[hamishspence]

Might be interesting to speculate on which is more probable to come:

Haley's attempt to conceal that she knows Durkon coming back to bite her.

Haley getting to say "See, I told you it was the right thing to do"

Neither of the above.

[Marnath]

Haley thinking Tarquin should not know that they know Durkon -> probably paranoid, as I cannot imagine how that could make a difference.

It would make a big difference if say, they're captured to go to the slave pits. Durkon is free to get them out of it, since he's still buddies with malack. You sacrifice that if it is known he's an ally of theirs. Basically, it's the "don't show the other players your hand" thing.

[Themrys]

What benefit is it to him, if he kills them all, and the world is destroyed?

Maybe he doesn't think they can save the world. Maybe he thinks he has a better idea. Maybe he wants Elan to stay with him.
They don't know.

Just because he is evil doesn't mean they should tell him everything and hope he can be trusted.

Just like you shouldn't assume that a good person will be on their side, they also shouldn't assume that an evil person will be on their side.

@Marnath: Yes, but...since Haley says she was converted by Durkon, Tarquin still knows they know each other and has reason to assume that Durkon cares about what happens to Haley. I'm not sure whether that makes such a great difference...okay...maybe if Tarquin wants to harm V.

[Marnath]

@Marnath: Yes, but...since Haley says she was converted by Durkon, Tarquin still knows they know each other and has reason to assume that Durkon cares about what happens to Haley. I'm not sure whether that makes such a great difference...okay...maybe if Tarquin wants to harm V.

Valid point, but that lie was only neccessary because Durkon doesn't know when to keep his pie-hole shut. He's actually the one who was going to mention knowing her.

[hamishspence]

Haley's insistance on them pretending to not know each other has one big problem- Durkon spent some time chatting with Malack about his adventures and his fellow party members. What are the odds that he's let enough clues about them slip that Malack should be able to guess that, for example:

"the person whose hand puppet the orcs started worshipping" is Elan- who has denied ever having met Durkon?

Not so low, I'd say.

We know that was just one of the stories Durkon told Malack:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

[pendell]

Just like you shouldn't *ass*u*me* a lawful good person will be on their side, you shouldn't assume a lawful evil person will be against them.

An evil person by definition is one who will screw you over if he believes there's enough benefit to him in doing so.

Which is why I wouldn't trust him even if we do share the same goal of saving the world. You never know just when his personal profit calculator will come up 'KILL'.

From what I've seen, lawful evil types will keep the letter of their agreements but will still find ways to maximize profit at the expense of their allies. That doesn't seem to imply it would be wise to be completely open with him about everything.

For example, it may be that Tarquin will have the thought: "Hmm... wouldn't it be nice to control a world-destroying monstrosity myself?" He could very well cooperate with the order of the stick to secure the gate and defeat Xykon, then betray them and take control of the gate himself, intending to conquer the world with it.

Another concern is that Tarquin may pull a Captain Barbossa and tell us that 'keeping his word' is more of a guideline than an actual rule... *stab*.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lateral]

Hah... great.

[hamishspence]

From what I've seen, lawful evil types will keep the letter of their agreements but will still find ways to maximize profit at the expense of their allies. That doesn't seem to imply it would be wise to be completely open with him about everything.

The phrasing in Savage Species was "Lawful Evil people can theoretically be trusted to some extent to keep their word, although they may bend it a little"- which is not very reassuring.

On the other hand, it goes it to say that evil people in general can be loving parents, loyal friends, devoted followers, etc- since they compartmentalize.

Tarquin's relationship with Elan is probably the main thing they have to protect them- if they are caught being dishonest with him- they may lose the only card (affection) they have.

[The Shadow]

Spice Alignment Table:
Lawful - Bay Leaf
Neutral - Vanilla
Chaotic - Chili Powder
Good- Cinnamon
Evil - Parsley

You intrigue me, sir. I had been thinking that Rosemary was definitely Lawful, and probably has at least Good tendencies. That fits your chart. (I'm not sure why you pick Vanilla as Neutral, though.)

Oregano is a strong candidate for Chaotic Good.

Anise is Lawful Evil. Not sure about Chaotic Evil, I wouldn't keep any in my house. :)

[Marnath]

You intrigue me, sir. I had been thinking that Rosemary was definitely Lawful, and probably has at least Good tendencies. That fits your chart. (I'm not sure why you pick Vanilla as Neutral, though.)

Oregano is a strong candidate for Chaotic Good.

Anise is Lawful Evil. Not sure about Chaotic Evil, I wouldn't keep any in my house. :)

Vanilla is probably neutral because it is widely held as the middleground, or in other words when you think of bland or default you think vanilla. This is mostly due to ice cream I believe.

[Wiffleboy]

I'm worried that Haley's liver gives in before she has drunk enough to forget that logic-fail.... :smalleek:

That's what healing spells are for. :smallsmile:

[Marnath]

That's what healing spells are for. :smallsmile:

You actually need Neutralize Poison to save you from alcohol related death.

[Valifor]

An evil person by definition is one who will screw you over if he believes there's enough benefit to him in doing so.

Which is why I wouldn't trust him even if we do share the same goal of saving the world. You never know just when his personal profit calculator will come up 'KILL'.

From what I've seen, lawful evil types will keep the letter of their agreements but will still find ways to maximize profit at the expense of their allies. That doesn't seem to imply it would be wise to be completely open with him about everything.

For example, it may be that Tarquin will have the thought: "Hmm... wouldn't it be nice to control a world-destroying monstrosity myself?" He could very well cooperate with the order of the stick to secure the gate and defeat Xykon, then betray them and take control of the gate himself, intending to conquer the world with it.

Another concern is that Tarquin may pull a Captain Barbossa and tell us that 'keeping his word' is more of a guideline than an actual rule... *stab*.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

you forget that ur "definition" is not so rigidly so. Rich himself makes a huge point in breaking stereotypes like that (Miko is good but an insane bitch, Redcloak has good reasons for being evil). i remember him saying once (can't remember the specific place for the quote right now) that evil characters are not always going to kill everything around them. his example was that two evil brothers or childhood friends or something similar were trying to take over the world. they wanted to rule, but each genuinely cared about the other and sincerely meant to rule equally alongside the other. when the players of this campaign of his tried to get on of them to betray the other, they got screwed.

basically, don't make the assumption that just because a character is "evil" doesn't mean he has absolutely no morals and will kill orphan children for the evulz. they can be nice guys who are just ruthless/cruel to enemies. i would use real-life examples of infamous people, but i'm fairly certain there's a rule on this forum against bringing real-life politics and/or people into an alignment discussion.

[pendell]

basically, don't make the assumption that just because a character is "evil" doesn't mean he has absolutely no morals and will kill orphan children for the evulz.


I'm not assuming that. But I am assuming that altruism is not his motivation, and I am assuming that he is capable of both treachery and murder. Do you disagree that this is so?

THEREFORE, I can well imagine working beside him to save the world. It may be ... useful ... to have an ally who is not bound by the scruples of the paladin code :smallamused:. But that doesn't mean I'm going to trust him fully. I'd follow Haley, and keep some cards up my sleeve. Not Elan, who seems to trust his father fully.

ETA: What? Do you think Tarquin is showing all HIS cards to the OOTS? Doesn't matter how friendly the game is, you still don't show your cards to the other players.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

i remember him saying once (can't remember the specific place for the quote right now) that evil characters are not always going to kill everything around them. his example was that two evil brothers or childhood friends or something similar were trying to take over the world. they wanted to rule, but each genuinely cared about the other and sincerely meant to rule equally alongside the other. when the players of this campaign of his tried to get on of them to betray the other, they got screwed.

Emotional Responses- on the gaming section of this site:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html

The precise wording:


Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.

So, how does one create realistic emotional responses? First, remember that alignment is a guide, not a strait-jacket. Not even for NPCs. Evil characters can love, good characters can hate. This alone will help you add some emotional interest; think of an NPC in your game and name three things he or she loves enough to die for (or hates enough to kill for). How about three rules they will never break, or three laws they feel aren't that important?

[JonestheSpy]

basically, don't make the assumption that just because a character is "evil" doesn't mean he has absolutely no morals and will kill orphan children for the evulz. they can be nice guys who are just ruthless/cruel to enemies.

Well, we do know that Tarquin is at least partly In It For Teh Evilz thanks to the dinner menu. That doesn't mean he wouldn't want to do right for his son, though.

Not to mention that it's obviously in Tarquin's self-interest to help defeat a lich who has a good chance of conquering/destroying the world, especially when said help involves little or no personal risk. Evil doesn't mean stupid, as we've seen many times.

[rewinn]

... just because a character is "evil" doesn't mean he has absolutely no morals and will kill orphan children for the evulz. they can be nice guys who are just ruthless/cruel to enemies....
The problem with letting Tarquin know about the quest is not so much his alignment as his appetites.

He's ambitious: he likes controlling a kingdom along with his lizardfolk buddy; he's unscrupulous: he has no compunction about "mysterious circumstance"-ing his wife. Good/evil or lawful/chaotic doesn't really matter; this is a guy to whom you do *not* entrust the keys to the Ultimate Weapon or even let him *hear* about the Ultimate Weapon.

EDITTED: Sure, he seems to like Elan. Elan can have a nice little throne next to his. And sure, he'll help defeat Xykon ... and keep the Gate for himself. Who with his appetites wouldn't?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

"I'm going to sit in this spin until the room stops chairing?"

Been there... :smallbiggrin:

[Valifor]

The problem with letting Tarquin know about the quest is not so much his alignment as his appetites.

He's ambitious: he likes controlling a kingdom along with his lizardfolk buddy; he's unscrupulous: he has no compunction about "mysterious circumstance"-ing his wife. Good/evil or lawful/chaotic doesn't really matter; this is a guy to whom you do *not* entrust the keys to the Ultimate Weapon or even let him *hear* about the Ultimate Weapon.

EDITTED: Sure, he seems to like Elan. Elan can have a nice little throne next to his. And sure, he'll help defeat Xykon ... and keep the Gate for himself. Who with his appetites wouldn't?

ok, that's actually a fair point i hadn't fully considered. i was mainly arguing against distrusting him when he's been 100% hospitable to you cuz of alignment. but even putting it into consideration, tell him that you need to see Girard so that you can find a way to stop the lich taking over the world. or say he has info on where the lich is, so you can go kill said lich! that's what bluff checks are for, no?

[Morgan Wick]

Haley's apparently a stupid drunk, or else Elan's only half as dumb as he acts.

I think I'll go with the first option.

Whenever Elan uses actual logic, something is up.

[Swordpriest]

Well, my take on the situation was never, "they should trust Tarquin."

My take on it is "if you're going to lie, do so in a way that isn't so contrived and obvious that you're almost certain to get caught."

It's going to be extremely hard to not get caught in this lie. I mean, the Order's even hanging out together at the moment, and if Tarquin strolls in -- or if the palace servants don't all fail their Spot checks -- it's going to be pretty obvious that they all know each other. Which, of course, leads to the question -- "why are these people lying about knowing each other? What are they hiding? What scheme do they have against us?"

So, Haley's idiotic lie has a much higher chance of landing them in the soup than just coming out and saying they know Durkon -- because it's obvious they know Durkon anyway.

I'm not saying they need to tell Tarquin everything. I'm just saying that telling obvious, transparent, impossible-to-maintain lies in front of a bunch of intelligent, paranoid, violent dictators probably isn't the brightest idea ever. By all means, lie about everything you can logically lie about when you're dealing with the EoB -- but don't lie about stuff where you're pretty close to certain to be caught, especially when it doesn't give you much of an advantage to do so.

[Tobimaro]

Haley, that morning hangover is going to be a huge reminder that you got out-logicked by Elan. And hangovers are harsh masters. :smallsigh:

[Whyareall]

Whenever Elan uses actual logic, something is up.

But don't forget, Elan has started thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) recently.

[Conuly]

Haley thinking that they can't trust Tarquin -> completely sane and sensible.

It would be sane and reasonable if she had a good reason for distrusting him. Her reason, however, seems to largely boil down to "Nobody is to be trusted until and unless you already know you can trust them". This is not reasonable, sane, or sensible. It's madness, in fact. This attitude nearly kept her from happiness with Elan. This attitude keeps her from telling Roy and Durkon about her dad. This attitude is going to get her in big trouble one day.

That doesn't mean that she should trust Tarquin, of course. As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Tarquin really is evil, we know that, and he might well screw them over. (Or he might not. Being evil != being stupid, and doing anything that'd attract a bigger evil like Xykon, or else lead to the end of the world? STUPID. He might not see any profit in these gates, and a LOT of good in getting these crazy adventurers FAR away from him to take care of Xykon for him.)

It just means that her reasons for not trusting him are absurd. Even Elan has figured it out.

[snikrept]

Wow, she's drunk enough to actually argue with Elan. She's done nothing but praise and encourage him before, far as I can tell.

[Themrys]

It would be sane and reasonable if she had a good reason for distrusting him. Her reason, however, seems to largely boil down to "Nobody is to be trusted until and unless you already know you can trust them". This is not reasonable, sane, or sensible. It's madness, in fact. This attitude nearly kept her from happiness with Elan.

Nearly.
Haley is sane enough to have realized that she has to trust someone.

I wouldn't survive a day in a world like this - exactly because I tend to trust everyone who is nice to me. That's okay where I live, but utter madness where Haley comes from. Remember Blind Pete?

Haley isn't mad. She is a tiny bit more paranoid than is good for her and she has realized that.

Elan can, maybe, trust Tarquin. The others? I wouldn't bet on it.
One could say it is dangerous to lie at all when Elan knows the truth, Elan being too stupid to lie...but that doesn't mean they should trust Tarquin. It does mean they shouldn't tell Elan everything.


Haley doesn't trust Tarquin because he threw her out of a window. That reason is good enough for me. Even I would distrust someone who has tried to kill me.

[Amarsir]

(I'm not sure why you pick Vanilla as Neutral, though.)
Vanilla is absolutely Neutral. Do you know how many strippers favor vanilla perfume? Talk about going both ways!

[Themrys]

Vanilla is absolutely Neutral. Do you know how many strippers favor vanilla perfume? Talk about going both ways!

I liked vanilla.:smallfrown:
How can I ever eat vanilla icecream now?

[Dahcnnayr]

Themrys, I agree that a body check through a window is enough reason not to trust some one. Haley could have responded to Elan with that reminder had she not been drunk. If the topic comes up again.....

[Scarlet Knight]

I liked vanilla.:smallfrown:
How can I ever eat vanilla icecream now?

Play some music first...:smalltongue:

Pepper is chaotic (red, black,etc) and evil (OW! Water!)

[factotum]

It would be sane and reasonable if she had a good reason for distrusting him. Her reason, however, seems to largely boil down to "Nobody is to be trusted until and unless you already know you can trust them".


As pointed out above, Haley in particular has a perfectly good reason to not trust Tarquin--he threw her out of a freakin' window! Speaking personally, I'd distrust someone who did that to me...

[CelestialMagpie]

Wouldn't a chaotic evil spice be a poison?

"Mmm...this is delicious! What is the spice?"
"Powdered hemlock!"
".......I hate you."

I agree on the rosemary and vanilla alignments. My additions - Dill (NG), Thyme (LN), Coriander (CN),
------


I think that Haley had her turn around about trust when she finally came clean to Elan - didn't she tell him her history?

And being a rogue, it's her job to be suspicious around strangers, even if they're the bf's family. Especially when that family member loves to eat Pegasus flank, pushes you out a window, and won't talk about important matters till they decide it's time.

Note: This is not in conjunction with the "lives are at stake!" argument - this is a "I know something you want to know, but I'll only tell you when I decide it's a good time" argument.

[Swordpriest]

As pointed out above, Haley in particular has a perfectly good reason to not trust Tarquin--he threw her out of a freakin' window! Speaking personally, I'd distrust someone who did that to me...

And again, in my case at least, I'm not saying to trust him. I'm saying don't tell a lie so obvious that you're almost certain to be caught, because being caught lying is going to look a lot more suspicious (and thus dangerous) than just admitting to knowing Durkon already would be. I mean, for God's sake, they're all sitting there in one room right now talking like old pals. If I were Tarquin, a person whose survival has pretty much hinged on ruthless paranoia, this would at least raise a few questions that I'd want answered ASAP.

There is a middle ground between "tell Tarquin everything" and "conceal stuff that's going to come to light quickly and make him wonder -- perhaps fatally for you -- why you are hiding this relatively innocuous information, and also what else you are hiding."

[Capt Spanner]

Really, is there any doubt that Haley WOULDN'T be played by Felicia Day? I suppose that's a conversation for another thread.

I've always pictured her more as Christina Hendricks who's sexier and sassier and less innocent and more...rogue-like.



You actually need Neutralize Poison to save you from alcohol related death.

I hope someone in the party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) knows how to cast that.

[Petrocorus]

I've always pictured her more as Christina Hendricks who's sexier and sassier and less innocent and more...rogue-like.


Are we going to resurrect the casting thread?

[Conuly]

As pointed out above, Haley in particular has a perfectly good reason to not trust Tarquin--he threw her out of a freakin' window! Speaking personally, I'd distrust someone who did that to me...

She was planning to jump out the window anyway, and once she did she killed at least 5 of his loyal employees. Plus, at the time he did it, he wasn't shoving his son's girlfriend out a window, he was shoving a potentially dangerous criminal out a window. TOTALLY different.

[Faramir]

Loved the way Durkon is an expert on exactly how much ale is necessary for any given level of intoxication/forgetfulness.

[Valifor]

As pointed out above, Haley in particular has a perfectly good reason to not trust Tarquin--he threw her out of a freakin' window! Speaking personally, I'd distrust someone who did that to me...

he did that to stop them. he recognized Elan, wanted to stop them to talk to him, and that was the only way he could. any other action, such as standing in their way or yelling at them wouldn't have had any kind of favorable results. if he tried to get in their way, they'd either jump out themselves or just run past him, and any yelling at them would only be ignored. it was the only way to make sure they stopped and listened to what he had to say, aka the only way to keep his son safe long enough to talk to him.

note that this is NOT me saying Tarquin is lawful neutral. he is not. he is lawful evil, no doubt in my mind about that. but i AM saying that that particular act was not evil and in fact was understandable. i swear, if another, good character had done the same thing, people would probably praise his good thinking at thinking of a solution that involved no death to the characters, but an evil one doing the same action...

[Kish]

i swear, if another, good character had done the same thing, people would probably praise his good thinking at thinking of a solution that involved no death to the characters,

Some would. Others would decry its evil.

If you expect the forum to speak with one voice on any action taken by any character, you haven't been reading it long enough and/or carefully enough.

--For that matter, an evil character did it, and the forum is split between people saying "it was an obviously evil action" and people praising his good thinking at thinking of a solution that involved no deaths. If he was now established as good, the proportions would be somewhat different, probably not all that different, and with at least some people switching sides in each direction.

[Gray Mage]

Some would. Others would decry its evil.

If you expect the forum to speak with one voice on any action taken by any character, you haven't been reading it long enough and/or carefully enough.

Or been in the internet long enough too.

Anyway, does anyone believes that Xykon will really leave AC without the phylactely?

[Themrys]

Some would. Others would decry its evil.


It is. It could have killed her. If V hadn't cast feather fall in time...
This act shows Tarquins complete disregard for the wellbeing of people who are not related to him. Whether he intended to kill Haley, is irrelevant. He didn't care, that's evil enough for me.

@Gray Mage: Don't think so. He thinks it could be destroyed. In that case, it would be very dangerous to leave his headquarters.

[brionl]

It is. It could have killed her. If V hadn't cast feather fall in time...
This act shows Tarquins complete disregard for the wellbeing of people who are not related to him. Whether he intended to kill Haley, is irrelevant. He didn't care, that's evil enough for me.


He apologized, what more do you want? Dangerous Criminals, trying to escape, it's his job to stop them.

[abbott.e]

It is. It could have killed her. If V hadn't cast feather fall in time...
This act shows Tarquins complete disregard for the wellbeing of people who are not related to him. Whether he intended to kill Haley, is irrelevant. He didn't care, that's evil enough for me.

Pushing Haley out of the window wasn't a random evil act, it was done so that V would use up Feather Fall, his last spell, so that the group couldn't all escape by jumping out of the window. Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

[factotum]

Pushing Haley out of the window wasn't a random evil act, it was done so that V would use up Feather Fall, his last spell, so that the group couldn't all escape by jumping out of the window. Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html)

It doesn't matter what the ultimate objective was, pushing someone out of the window in the hope that one of their companions will save them is not the act of a Good person!

[Valifor]

It doesn't matter what the ultimate objective was, pushing someone out of the window in the hope that one of their companions will save them is not the act of a Good person!

who said he was a good person? he IS evil, but the act itself is more neutral than anything. and it wasn't in the hope that V would save her. he knew V would. he had just heard V saying s/he had the spell, and was planning to use it, so it was a very safe bet that the spell would be used to save Haley.

and to the above about my comment on if it was a good character, you have a good point and i concede that. i was just pointing out that it's likely that at least some of the people now calling the window push a despicable act would say it was heroic if the character was good, which bugs me. but hey, like you said, that's the internet/life for you, right? :smalltongue:

[super dark33]

the 'evil resources' joke strikes again!

now its evil food because the chef is evil

[Querzis]

It doesn't matter what the ultimate objective was, pushing someone out of the window in the hope that one of their companions will save them is not the act of a Good person!

...why? They were his enemies at the time and he probably thought at first that Elan was Nale. When Haley got to the ground she sure didnt hesitate to kill all these guards so why the hell would Tarquin hesitate to push her out of the window? We saw lots of good people kill their enemies, whats the freaking problem? Seriously, I just really dont get the logic here. Tarquin is evil, I'm sure he is, but that action was totally neutral, theres nothing evil about pushing your enemies out of the window, especially if you actually expect them to survive!

And, once again, the fact that Tarquin is evil really doesnt change anything. In this situation, lying to him is still the dumbest thing you could do even if you're fully aware hes evil.

[Marnath]

And I'd like once again to point out that the probable reason for lying about Durkon is to keep an ace in the hole. I'd also like to mention(again...) that it's Durkon's fault the lie has been undermined because he was just gonna blurt it out.

[Gray Mage]

And I'd like once again to point out that the probable reason for lying about Durkon is to keep an ace in the hole. I'd also like to mention(again...) that it's Durkon's fault the lie has been undermined because he was just gonna blurt it out.

Except that Elan almost blew it too, forcing Haley to make a really bad justification. They're improvising about that, which is not an effective way to maintain a lie, they're bound to be caugh sometime, and it's not going to end well for them. It's not even a ace they're keeping in the hole. The gates are they ace, telling that Durkon is their friend might even be good for them in the long run.

[CelestialMagpie]

Or been in the internet long enough too.

Anyway, does anyone believes that Xykon will really leave AC without the phylactely?


I do - I mean, he's still pretty powerful without it. He can go about looking for the gates while his army of zombie minions combs the bottom of the waterways/labyrinth/ocean. We already know he's gone to the kobold oracle.

[Ted The Bug]

And again, in my case at least, I'm not saying to trust him. I'm saying don't tell a lie so obvious that you're almost certain to be caught, because being caught lying is going to look a lot more suspicious (and thus dangerous) than just admitting to knowing Durkon already would be. I mean, for God's sake, they're all sitting there in one room right now talking like old pals. If I were Tarquin, a person whose survival has pretty much hinged on ruthless paranoia, this would at least raise a few questions that I'd want answered ASAP.

There is a middle ground between "tell Tarquin everything" and "conceal stuff that's going to come to light quickly and make him wonder -- perhaps fatally for you -- why you are hiding this relatively innocuous information, and also what else you are hiding."

My money's on Tarquin figuring something out by now. His little 'surprise verdict' for the bounty hunters shows that he has no problem with waiting for the right time to play cards nobody else even knew he had. He's as genre savvy as his son, but with way more intelligence. I'd be very surprised if he wasn't at least somewhat suspicious by now and subtly keeping an eye on everything.

[Gray Mage]

I do - I mean, he's still pretty powerful without it. He can go about looking for the gates while his army of zombie minions combs the bottom of the waterways/labyrinth/ocean. We already know he's gone to the kobold oracle.

Well, I'm not sure. I think he is weaker without it, at least in a sense. He's usually pretty reckless. I mean, look at the way he fights, he likes to "play with his food", not worring about them fighting back. That's what killed him against the order in the first time and what almost killed him against Soon. With his phylactely, he basicaly has an infinite continues cheat, and he abuses it. Without it? He's mortal* again. In fact it's worse, as he doesn't know if he's mortal or not. He can't just do as he pleases, he can't screw up. And with the record on gates, he almost died on two of the current three. I don't think he'll risk going to either one of the gates left, but I guess it makes sense that he's going to Girard's, as it's the less likely to kill him IMO.


*Mortal as in can be killed.

[Asthix]

We already know he's [Xykon's] gone to the kobold oracle.

Yeah but the Kobold oracle was 'out.' Meaning as far as I see it that the oracle wasn't going to give Xykon a reading and since he (the oracle) knows when it's (Xykon) coming, Xykon knew he wasn't going to get a reading.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Well... you can count on Xykon having SOME kind of plan in the works that will keep him in the game. That's just the way he is.

[Marnath]

Yeah but the Kobold oracle was 'out.' Meaning as far as I see it that the oracle wasn't going to give Xykon a reading and since he (the oracle) knows when it's (Xykon) coming, Xykon knew he wasn't going to get a reading.

I think what he actually meant was, Xykon has already gone pretty far afield without the phylactery, so maybe a gate isn't out of the question.

[Gray Mage]

I think what he actually meant was, Xykon has already gone pretty far afield without the phylactery, so maybe a gate isn't out of the question.

Going to the oracle isn't dangerous. The order did it three times, one of them being basicaly Haley herself, it's so easy it's laughable for him. The gates, on the other hand, were made by epic level PCs for the purpose of not letting people near the gates, it's completely different.

[Marnath]

Going to the oracle isn't dangerous. The order did it three times, one of them being basicaly Haley herself, it's so easy it's laughable for him. The gates, on the other hand, were made by epic level PCs for the purpose of not letting people near the gates, it's completely different.

I thought we were adressing the psycological side of OMG I COULD DIE. From a physical standpoint there's not much that can stop him if he stops playing around and applies himself. He just has to overcome his fear of danger in the face of a missing phylactery.

[Gray Mage]

I thought we were adressing the psycological side of OMG I COULD DIE. From a physical standpoint there's not much that can stop him if he stops playing around and applies himself. He just has to overcome his fear of danger in the face of a missing phylactery.

There isn't much psycological harm for going to the oracle, as he didn't even need to fight the tests, as he can teleport.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

My personal theory? Tarquin and Malack will turn out to be genuinely on their side, but will turn on them because they discover that they've been lying to them.

[BlueWizard]

Plastered Haley! I love it.

[blackjack217]

My theory Malak and Tarquin are actually working for :thog: who is really working for :miko:

[Anitar]

My personal theory? Tarquin and Malack will turn out to be genuinely on their side, but will turn on them because they discover that they've been lying to them.

My theory? Tarquin and Malack will only be on their side because they discover that they've been lying to them.

It can work either way, you know.

[hamishspence]

My theory? Tarquin and Malack will only be on their side because they discover that they've been lying to them.

It can work either way, you know.


Something along the lines of this?

Tarquin: "You mean you've been lying to us all this time??- That's my boy! A real chip off the old block! I'll be glad to free your friends and help you out."

[Gray Mage]

My theory? Tarquin and Malack will only be on their side because they discover that they've been lying to them.

It can work either way, you know.

You mean the man that taught his son to take disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights? Yeah, right.

[Urist McDwarf]

It can work either way, you know.

That's what she said.
Anyway, Tarquin pushing Haley out of a window was not evil at all. They were possibly dangerous criminals, and he didn't know whether or not they were evil. If one of the heroes did that to a criminal, you wouldn't care. The only reason it is decryed as an evil act is because Tarquin is evil.

[hamishspence]

You mean the man that taught his son to take disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights? Yeah, right.

Not every personality trait has to be taught or inborn- Nale may simply have developed it.

That said, the "I look forward to seeing you die in the arena" for the bounty hunters, does strongly suggest Tarquin can get really vindictive given sufficient cause.

[Petrocorus]

Not every personality trait has to be taught or inborn- Nale may simply have developed it.

That said, the "I look forward to seeing you die in the arena" for the bounty hunters, does strongly suggest Tarquin can get really vindictive given sufficient cause.

The sufficient cause being? Asking to be paid for the job done?

[Xykeb Zraliv]

My theory? Tarquin and Malack will only be on their side because they discover that they've been lying to them.

It can work either way, you know.

Er, what? I...don't see the logic here? :smallconfused:

[Anitar]

Er, what? I...don't see the logic here? :smallconfused:

Cool, me neither!

[Kish]

The sufficient cause being? Asking to be paid for the job done?
His alignment matches Nale's and he's the one who taught Nale to be Lawful Evil. What do you think?

[Detrinex]

@Above: He acknowledged it was his fault for raising him to be "ruthless and efficient".

[Gd8908]

Outsmarted by Elan... I would drink about 6 extra just to be sure...

[the_tick_rules]

yeah, is it me or is elan getting smarter. Compare him to vintage elan.

[bobthehero]

He's been putting point into intelligence ever since he became a wizard :smalltongue:

Wait he never get a wizard level, misread, my bad.

[Xykeb Zraliv]

He's been putting point into intelligence ever since he became a wizard :smalltongue:

He must be using his frabjulitulity to mictifarcate Haley's gilltooney!

[factotum]

If one of the heroes did that to a criminal, you wouldn't care.

Actually, I would. The only time the heroes have ever actually done that was when Roy threw Sabine out a window, and they were (a) fighting at the time and (b) Sabine is unquestionably pure Evil, being a succubus or whatever. If Roy had done the same thing to, say, Nale then I would expect it to figure very largely in his next Deva review, and almost certainly result in him ending up in the Lawful Neutral afterlife.

See also strip #399, where everyone reacts more-or-less with horror to V's suggestion that they just cut Nale's throat and be done with it.

[Conuly]

The sufficient cause being? Asking to be paid for the job done?

Trying to blackmail him to raise the fee, in front of his son.

[faustin]

yeah, is it me or is elan getting smarter. Compare him to vintage elan

Besides his character growing, Elan is the personification of randomness, like The Fool in Tarot decks. So his stats can fluctuate according with special circunstances.

.............. ok, ok make it SEVEN drinks.

[Gray Mage]

Not sure if someone said it before, but what happened with the chair in the last two panels? :smallconfused:

[Valifor]

Actually, I would. The only time the heroes have ever actually done that was when Roy threw Sabine out a window, and they were (a) fighting at the time and (b) Sabine is unquestionably pure Evil, being a succubus or whatever. If Roy had done the same thing to, say, Nale then I would expect it to figure very largely in his next Deva review, and almost certainly result in him ending up in the Lawful Neutral afterlife.

See also strip #399, where everyone reacts more-or-less with horror to V's suggestion that they just cut Nale's throat and be done with it.

yes, that's true that they were horrified at the idea of killing Nale outright, but that's not what Tarquin is doing. he's stopping three criminals by making them use resources that would help them. he already heard V say s/he had the spell, so knocking Haley out the window is almost guaranteed NOT to kill her, since he knows V will save her. that being said, it wasn't exactly benevolent either, so i say it was a neutral act to get what needed to be done done. i doubt the deva would have cared about pushing anybody out of a window in those circumstances, that they'd be saved immediately. heck, even if they weren't gonna be saved, that would be no different than killing escaping criminals, which would probably be fine for them.

also, way to go on the hypocritical double-standard on throwing Sabine out the window. it's ok because she's REALLY evil, as opposed to Nale and Tarquin, who're only mildly unpleasant apparently. and the in the middle of the fight excuse isn't true anyways, because she had stopped the fight and surrendered to Roy at that point, so what Roy did wasn't necessary. even if it WAS in the middle of a fight, that'd be the same kind of pressures Tarquin was dealing with having to stop three criminals from escaping when they are about to in the next like three seconds. so what you say there is one heck of a double standard.

[Mordaenor]

A thought on Tarquin's intentions: while I won't be surprised if he ends up against the OoTS, I'm not sure he's INTENDING to do that. Reasoning: What does he have to gain? He didn't have to come to his son's rescue. If he was against them from the beginning, letting them go to jail would have been a lot easier, and we KNOW there is no love lost between Tarquin and Elan. Which doesn't make him a good guy, but does give him a reason to cooperate with us.

Although, as I write this, I suppose his (and Elan's) love of drama (and Star Wars references) WOULD be justification enough to set-up his son only to screw him over. He might even do it expecting Elan to THANK him for it, as it could end with a dramatic "father and son" duel.

[Mordaenor]

and the in the middle of the fight excuse isn't true anyways, because she had stopped the fight and surrendered to Roy at that point, so what Roy did wasn't necessary.

Sorry got to point out that the fight between Roy and Sabine wasn't over. When a succubus (or whatever she is) says "I surrender" then polymorphs and starts to undo her shirt, she hasn't surrendered. She's still fighting, just with a different weapon. And Roy's smart enough to know that (he DOES have an MBA after all.)

[Petrocorus]

Sorry got to point out that the fight between Roy and Sabine wasn't over. When a succubus (or whatever she is) says "I surrender" then polymorphs and starts to undo her shirt, she hasn't surrendered. She's still fighting, just with a different weapon. And Roy's smart enough to know that (he DOES have an MBA after all.)

Not to mention that throwing a succubus who can fly out of a windows is not really a coup de grâce. It's rather giving her the way to flee.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Im surprised how drunk she got, it seems to me that people with such trust issues would never get drunk, especially with all these new people around.

She's a skinny lady, and none of them ate much of anything, I don't know how much she could drink without getting drunk.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Actually, I would. The only time the heroes have ever actually done that was when Roy threw Sabine out a window. . .

All those goblins have just been pretending, I guess? I mean, just because they didn't specifically throw them out a window doesn't make it less murderous.

[Gray Mage]

Not to mention that throwing a succubus who can fly out of a windows is not really a coup de grâce. It's rather giving her the way to flee.

And V had Feather Fall prepared, so Haley also was pratically given the way to flee, as we saw.

[DaveMcW]

She's a skinny lady, and none of them ate much of anything, I don't know how much she could drink without getting drunk.

Haley may be a stick figure, but she's not skinny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html).

[rewinn]

Sorry got to point out that the fight between Roy and Sabine wasn't over. When a succubus (or whatever she is) says "I surrender" then polymorphs and starts to undo her shirt, she hasn't surrendered. She's still fighting, just with a different weapons.

I fixed that for you.

P.S. Sabine was clearly going for a Gaze Attack with a +2 bonus.

[Themrys]

Haley may be a stick figure, but she's not skinny (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html).

Combined with this...: http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=order+of+the+stick+%2B+celia#/djdxsg

:smalleek:

[factotum]

also, way to go on the hypocritical double-standard on throwing Sabine out the window. it's ok because she's REALLY evil, as opposed to Nale and Tarquin, who're only mildly unpleasant apparently.

D&D makes a distinction between creatures like Sabine, who are always evil and really have no chance at redemption, and normal evil people like Nale, who might be redeemed yet. Any truly good person in a D&D setting would make that distinction.

[Kish]

D&D makes a distinction between creatures like Sabine, who are always evil and really have no chance at redemption,

except when they reform and become paladins.

[Avaclon]

While I agree that the "out-logicked by Elan" joke is hilarious, I think Elan out-logicked himself at the same time.

As far as I can tell, Elan's calling her on circular logic: Haley doesn't trust Tarquin because he's taking his time helping them when lives are at stake, even though he doesn't know lives are at stake because Haley doesn't trust him. However, the way Elan phrases his counter-argument doesn't make that clear. It would make more sense if he had said, "You don't trust him partly because of how he's acting when he doesn't know lives are at stake."

Or maybe he out-logicked me too. Am I missing something?

Same here. I'm so very lost by the strip. Can someone please explain what Elan means? What does "You don't trust him partly because of how he's acting when lives are at stake!" means? Is that a statement? Or is it suppose to be a question? I tried saying it out loud three times and still not getting it...I must be missing a pause somewhere :(

Sorry, I'm just so lost. Can a kind soul please explain what am I missing here?

[Kish]

Same here. I'm so very lost by the strip. Can someone please explain what Elan means? What does "You don't trust him partly because of how he's acting when lives are at stake!" means? Is that a statement? Or is it suppose to be a question? I tried saying it out loud three times and still not getting it...I must be missing a pause somewhere :(

Sorry, I'm just so lost. Can a kind soul please explain what am I missing here?
Haley doesn't trust Tarquin, for multiple reasons, but in this particular strip, she mentions only one: He's not telling them what he knows immediately, and lives are at stake.
Elan points out that Tarquin doesn't know lives are at stake, because Haley has insisted they can't tell him anything.
Haley replies that they can't tell him anything because she doesn't trust him.
Elan points out that this is circular.

[Phishfood]

serious case of tl;dr due to intoxication, but seriously...what is with the magic disappearing chair and table in this one?

[cc_kizz]

Same here. I'm so very lost by the strip. Can someone please explain what Elan means? What does "You don't trust him partly because of how he's acting when lives are at stake!" means? Is that a statement? Or is it suppose to be a question? I tried saying it out loud three times and still not getting it...I must be missing a pause somewhere :(

Sorry, I'm just so lost. Can a kind soul please explain what am I missing here?

Elan is trying to reason with Haley. He's restating what Haley is saying. Haley claims that Tarquin is just having fun despite lives being at stake which is why she doesn't trust him. Elan points out that he doesn't know lives are at stake and reiterates that his behavior despite lives being at stake is based on his actions which would look bad if he did know lives were at stake, but he does not and Haley is just not seeing the bigger picture.

I know, this probably didn't help to explain it much…

Part of the funny is in the awkward delivery and the absurdity of the reasoning. :smallsmile:

[Swordpriest]

Let me have a try. :smallwink:

Basically, Haley isn't telling Tarquin anything because she distrusts him because he isn't acting on information that she hasn't told him because she distrusts him.

Her "reasoning" is circular and illogical. And Elan pointed that out. :smallbiggrin:

[brionl]

serious case of tl;dr due to intoxication, but seriously...what is with the magic disappearing chair and table in this one?

It's not a film, they are allowed to move around between panels.

[Bongos]

um, this might have been mentioned before, but how does Elan's sash keep switching sides from panel to panel? Did it always do that?

[Marnath]

um, this might have been mentioned before, but how does Elan's sash keep switching sides from panel to panel? Did it always do that?

I think it's the same visual effect that makes their eyes switch the bigger and smaller eye from side to side depending on which way they face.

[Mordredd]

OK, I have been reading this forum for years (no, really) and only now I registered so i can point something out and finally end the discussion (who am I kidding? It wont end anyway :smallbiggrin:) about Mr. T (not the other one) being Evil. He is on the right side of the new poster, and the Giant himself said:

"Xykon and the bad guys inhabit the right one."


Now i wanna see anyone say "He might be neutral".



PS: please dont say the helmet is not showing his face.

[Marnath]

The helmet isn't showing his face, though.


Sorry, I just had to. ^.^

[shadowkiller]

um, this might have been mentioned before, but how does Elan's sash keep switching sides from panel to panel? Did it always do that?

It's a +1 shash of side switching.

[Kish]

OK, I have been reading this forum for years (no, really) and only now I registered so i can point something out and finally end the discussion (who am I kidding? It wont end anyway :smallbiggrin:) about Mr. T (not the other one) being Evil. He is on the right side of the new poster, and the Giant himself said:

"Xykon and the bad guys inhabit the right one."


Now i wanna see anyone say "He might be neutral".



PS: please dont say the helmet is not showing his face.
Jenny might be neutral and is really unlikely to be evil.

Will that do?

Seriously, a quick glance at Belkar should point out that which poster you're on is no guarantee of good or evil alignment.

Also: Mr. T, not the other one? So you do mean the television figure?

[Bongos]

It's a +1 shash of side switching.

That's a nice piece of gear there.

[Valifor]

D&D makes a distinction between creatures like Sabine, who are always evil and really have no chance at redemption, and normal evil people like Nale, who might be redeemed yet. Any truly good person in a D&D setting would make that distinction.

except that there are stories of good aligned demons, fallen angels, and everything in between. even if there wasn't, Rich makes a point to go against norms like these. that's the kind of sterotype that made characters like Redcloak, because to the characters in the story, a succubus is just as irredeemably evil as a goblin. congrats, you have just shown the attitude that caused a cleric to hate humans enough to invade a city, killing thousands of them.

[Marnath]

That comparison doesn't work out too well. Outsiders can't change their alignments, they actually are pure Good/Evil.

[Swordpriest]

That comparison doesn't work out too well. Outsiders can't change their alignments, they actually are pure Good/Evil.

Although I can imagine a very, very, very rare outsider somehow changing its alignment, my idea is (although this is not canonical in D&D) that it would change its appearance and abilities totally, too. The physical structure of an archon or devil, for example, wouldn't be determined by biology, but by manifestation of a moral or immoral principle. Therefore, if Sabine somehow "converted" to good (a 1 in a billion chance, at best), she'd transform into an archon -- she wouldn't be a succubus with a halo.

[Kish]

That comparison doesn't work out too well. Outsiders can't change their alignments, they actually are pure Good/Evil.
...You don't seem to be getting this.

There are a fair number of official examples of fiends and celestials changing their alignments. Some of them (the fallen solar who rules one of the Nine Hells) being rather central to the entire concept(s) of the planes thy come from.

Asserting this can't happen does nothing to make the examples of it happening go away.

[Marnath]

One or two out of trillions is not a fair comparison to goblins, which have a pretty decent chance of being at least neutral.

[Querzis]

Although I can imagine a very, very, very rare outsider somehow changing its alignment, my idea is (although this is not canonical in D&D) that it would change its appearance and abilities totally, too. The physical structure of an archon or devil, for example, wouldn't be determined by biology, but by manifestation of a moral or immoral principle. Therefore, if Sabine somehow "converted" to good (a 1 in a billion chance, at best), she'd transform into an archon -- she wouldn't be a succubus with a halo.

Nah thats not how it work at all. They are not manifestation of moral or immoral principle they are, in many cases, souls of dead people and, in other cases, ancient beings from another realm who are as old as the gods (or maybe older in the demons case). While pretty much all outsiders can evolve and physically change, its not determined by their morality.


One or two out of trillions is not a fair comparison to goblins, which have a pretty decent chance of being at least neutral.

Its still exactly the same thing, it doesnt matter if you're doing it to evil people or good people. If torturing or executing good people in cold blood is evil then torturing or executing evil people in cold blood is still freaking evil. If good and evil can do the same thing to each others, then they are not the two sides of morality anymore, they just become two sides in a war.

So yeah, if you think for some weird reason that throwing a known enemy out of a window is evil, then its still evil when Roy does it. You really have to cut it out with your protagonist centered morality, its not because Tarquin throwed Haley out of a window thats its suddenly more evil then Roy throwing Sabine out of a window.

And once again, I'm sure Tarquin is evil. But hes definitly not evil for throwing Haley out of a window back when she was still an enemy, hes evil for stuff like governing an evil empire or eating Phoenix liver!

[Menas]

Killing good characters means removing good from the world which means advocating a more evil world. Being an advocate for evil is evil.

Killing evil characters means removing evil from the world which means advocating a better (more good) world. Being an advocate for good is good.

Therefore, killing good characters is evil, and killing evil characters is good.

;-)

[Marnath]

So yeah, if you think for some weird reason that throwing a known enemy out of a window is evil, then its still evil when Roy does it. You really have to cut it out with your protagonist centered morality, its not because Tarquin throwed Haley out of a window thats its suddenly more evil then Roy throwing Sabine out of a window.


Hey now, calm down there buddy. I'm not arguing about the morality of throwing an enemy out the window(it's acceptable for anyone, since you ARE trying to kill them anyway) I'm only adressing the outsiders as non-standard alignments thing. All the fluff I've ever heard of for D&D has them as being composed from the literal raw essence of good, evil, law and chaos. I'm aware of the Succubus paladin on WotC, but was led to believe that was a joke as part of a series focused on making wierd stuff that doesn't really work by the rules as written.

[Kish]

Therefore, killing good characters is evil, and killing evil characters is good.
And Xykon is a saint.

I'm aware of the Succubus paladin on WotC, but was led to believe that was a joke as part of a series focused on making wierd stuff that doesn't really work by the rules as written.
Not a joke. Works perfectly well. She's a person made of solidified chaos and evil, who is herself Lawful Good. This only doesn't make sense if you ignore the fact that the kind of evil that can have creatures made of it can't be the same thing as the kind of evil that means a judgment placed on an action.

[Petrocorus]

Does someone have a source or a link to this succubus paladin?

[cc_kizz]

um, this might have been mentioned before, but how does Elan's sash keep switching sides from panel to panel? Did it always do that?

You know, I can't help but feel it was a mistake in the first dinner scene comic when it was pointed out. Since then, if feels like it's been done purposely…

[Querzis]

Killing good characters means removing good from the world which means advocating a more evil world. Being an advocate for evil is evil.

Killing evil characters means removing evil from the world which means advocating a better (more good) world. Being an advocate for good is good.

Therefore, killing good characters is evil, and killing evil characters is good.

;-)

I'm just gonna assume this is sarcasm and move on.

P.S. Never try sarcasm on the internet. It really doesnt work.

[hamishspence]

Does someone have a source or a link to this succubus paladin?

Yup:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

Elder Evils is a WOTC sourcebook with rules for an evil angel- a planetar, that still has the Good subtype, the angel subtype, and most of it's abilities. It is called Avamerin, and serves the Elder Evil Sertrous, a demon lord of serpents.

For another nonevil succubus- one of the potential party members in the computer game Planescape Torment is an LN succubus called Fall-From-Grace. She is later referred to in Demonomicon: Malcanthet, in Dragon Magazine- in a 3.5 article written by the same WoTC staffers that wrote the 3.5 Fiendish Codex book.

For creatures that can't exist- but only beacuse of the rules limitations- and the splatbook Savage Species has a sidebar saying the DM can ignore template rules if they want, these were the two articles:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060407a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a