Evil Cuisine?

[AxeD]

Why is it that Elan, Haley and Durkon refrained from eating good aligned creatures in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html)?

Is it an evil act to eat a good creature? (I'm assuming that phoenix are good creatures) Does it really matter if they're killed by another person's hand?

[Kish]

Cannibalism is commonly frowned upon, and any moral reasons that apply to it also apply to eating good-aligned sapient creatures of a different species. The validity of those moral reasons is, I would guess, something that can't be discussed on this board.

[Larspcus2]

I don't think that they were particularly concerned with MoralityPoints, it's just that the thought of eating such creatures turned their stomachs.

[RebelRogue]

Why is it that Elan, Haley and Durkon refrained from eating good aligned creatures in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html)?

Is it an evil act to eat a good creature? (I'm assuming that phoenix are good creatures) Does it really matter if they're killed by another person's hand?
Eating good-aligned, sentient creatures is cannibalism. The phoenix had to suffer greatly for the pate to be made - vivisection is an evil act to most people. That's why.

[Crisis21]

I think the implications of how the phoenix pate was prepared (with the bird still alive) made them wonder just what was done to the rest of the creatures prior to the cook getting hold of them.

Evil cuisine is likely not just consuming good-aligned creatures, it is preparing them in the cruelest manner possible. Besides, I'm pretty sure most of us can name at least one animal that we like so much (alive) that we would be truly horrified at the prospect of eating one.

There are some real life dishes, like pressed duck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck), that I will never eat because I find the method of preparation to be honestly cruel and stomach-turning.

[AxeD]

So, in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) comic, when the goblin said that evil food tastes better to evil races, maybe he wasn't kidding, huh?

[Knaight]

There are some real life dishes, like pressed duck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck), that I will never eat because I find the method of preparation to be honestly cruel and stomach-turning.
As an extension of this, many vegetarians are the same way, only with more foods qualified, its a common idea. Pressed duck is one of the foods I won't eat as well, and as far as I'm concerned, transgressions against sapient beings are far worse than transgressions against non sapient beings, again, a common perspective.

This is from someone who isn't opposed to cannibalism (we are clear on politics, as long as we leave religion out it can be discussed) in cases where its that or die, and the only reason I have an issue with cannibalism as a standard of burial is what is basically mad human disease. Sure, if I die I would rather have my organs and what not go to someone who needs one of them, but holding off starvation is certainly worth doing.

[Crisis21]

So, in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html) comic, when the goblin said that evil food tastes better to evil races, maybe he wasn't kidding, huh?

What he was kidding on was that the pained cries of the slaves enhanced the flavor. Whether or not he was kidding about evil food itself is open for debate. Keep in mind that the hobgoblin might not have known about actual evil food, and thus could have been kidding without negating the existence of evil food. :smallbiggrin:

[Acero]

Consider it like eating a Pokemon. Is that evil?

[the_tick_rules]

I didn't realize food had alignment qualities.

[Yehomer]

There are some real life dishes, like pressed duck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck), that I will never eat because I find the method of preparation to be honestly cruel and stomach-turning.

I fail to see how this food is cruel. Is it because the duck is strangled as opposed to decapitated? All the pressing is done posthumously.

I personally think that goose pate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras) is a much worse animal cruelty.

[NerfTW]

I personally think that goose pate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras) is a much worse animal cruelty.

And even then, professional food critics usually can't tell the difference between the liver of a goose force fed with a tube, and one that's simply given ready access to too much food.

[Killer Angel]

I didn't realize food had alignment qualities.

Of course (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_food_cake) it's aligned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_food_cake)! :smallcool:

[Morquard]

Why is it that Elan, Haley and Durkon refrained from eating good aligned creatures in these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html)?

Is it an evil act to eat a good creature? (I'm assuming that phoenix are good creatures) Does it really matter if they're killed by another person's hand?

In D&D by default animals have neutral alignment because they lack the mental capacity to realise that their acts are good or evil. A Lion kills because it needs to eat, not because it just likes to kill antelopes.
But that also means that any creature with another alignment than neutral must have an Intelligence score of at least 3 and is therefore sentient or sapient (not sure which one it actually is, maybe both), and eating them is considered cannibalism by D&D rules and evil. (It's also a Magical Beast now not an animal anymore)

So eating an intelligent evil creature would still be an evil act.

[Coidzor]

^: Sapient is what you're looking for there. And it's one of the most tripe portion of da rules. Especially viz. Wendigos.

Dragon is too delicious to be left to rot after killing it, pulling its teeth, skinning it for the scales and hide, draining the remaining blood, and making a delightful coffee table conversation piece out of the skull.


And even then, professional food critics usually can't tell the difference between the liver of a goose force fed with a tube, and one that's simply given ready access to too much food.

I don't think anyone ever defended it for the taste so much as for the laziness of it.

[hamishspence]

While Sapient is probably more accurate, D&D (like some Sci-Fi) tends to use "sentient" in place of "sapient" even if it's less accurate.


^: Sapient is what you're looking for there. And it's one of the most tripe portion of da rules. Especially viz. Wendigos.

"Even survival cannibalism can turn you into a Wendigo" is a 4E thing- does the same fluff for Wendigos apply in the 3E Fiend Folio book (which has them)?

[Lord Bingo]

There are some real life dishes, like pressed duck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck), that I will never eat because I find the method of preparation to be honestly cruel and stomach-turning.

What is cruel about lightly roasting an already dead duck, removing the good pieces of meat and then putting the rest of the carcass in a press to extract the juices for the base of a sauce?

[Themrys]

"Even survival cannibalism can turn you into a Wendigo" is a 4E thing- does the same fluff for Wendigos apply in the 3E Fiend Folio book (which has them)?


Is becoming a Wendigo a "do something evil and you are turned" thing or rather a matter of infection?

I don't see much of a moral difference between cannibalism and survival cannibalism. What matters is whether people were killed in order to eat them.
Eating dead grandparents, who died of old age, instead of a burial isn't evil.

@AxeD:
Is it an evil act to eat a good creature? (I'm assuming that phoenix are good creatures) Does it really matter if they're killed by another person's hand?

It doesn't matter whose hand did the deed. If you eat a cow, you could as well have killed it yourself. The cow would not have been killed if there were no people who want to eat it. That's why vegetarians don't eat meat, despite it obviously is dead already and they can't save that one animal anymore.
To profit from evil acts can be considered evil, I think.
(Apart from the fact that it is just yucky to eat sapient creatures)

However, I would like to know whether spices can have an alignment in D&D.

[derfenrirwolv]

I wonder if this is why malack refused to eat with the rest of the class. Its not because he's an evil vampire its because he's NOT an evil person.



or maybe he's a good vampire...

[hamishspence]

Is becoming a Wendigo a "do something evil and you are turned" thing or rather a matter of infection?

I don't see much of a moral difference between cannibalism and survival cannibalism. What matters is whether people were killed in order to eat them.
Eating dead grandparents, who died of old age, instead of a burial isn't evil.

In 4E Demonomicon, it seems a bit like a matter of infection- every time cannibalism is committed, there is a chance (but not a certain one) of a conduit opening to the Abyss and a spirit from there entering the cannibal and beginning to transform them.

I'm not sure how it works in 3E Fiend Folio.

[Coidzor]

"Even survival cannibalism can turn you into a Wendigo" is a 4E thing- does the same fluff for Wendigos apply in the 3E Fiend Folio book (which has them)?

A Wizard's 3.5 adventure hook made this appear to be the case. I'm trying to remember if this was a Frostburn blurb or one of their web products. What with it being a undead spirit of hunger. Much better thematic tie-in with desperate hunger than, uh, decadent bourgeoisie.

[Themrys]

I wonder if this is why malack refused to eat with the rest of the class. Its not because he's an evil vampire its because he's NOT an evil person.

Or he is so evil he can't eat good-aligned creatures without damaging his health.:smalltongue:

I can imagine why an albino wouldn't want to eat phoenix...

[pendell]

Evil food make an appearance in SOD as well. There is an evil Cafe frequented by the villains, whose evil spices are summoned directly from the lower planes to the spice rack of the damned. That is also where demon roaches come from -- they follow the spices through the gate and get trapped on OOTS Prime.

I'm not spoilering that because I don't see that it gives away any major plot points.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kurald Galain]

They should have served minionions.

[Scarlet Knight]

:xykon: "Welcome to todays episode of EVIL EATS! Our guest chef is Belkar Bitterleaf. What are we preparing today? Steaming entrails?"

:belkar: "Not this week. Today we're making Phoenix Pate."

:xykon: "Sounds delish. But is it hard?"

:belkar: "No, but gathering the ingredients can be tricky as the Phoenix must be alive when you cut out it's liver, which, by the way, is my favorite step."

:xykon:"So, what tips can you offer us?"

:belkar: "Well, a fireproof minion would help."

:roach: "Why are you looking at me?"

[SoC175]

Eating good-aligned, sentient creatures is cannibalism. According to BoVD in D&D eating any sentient creature is cannibalism, regardless of their alignment

[hamishspence]

Interestingly, in 3E D&D, wendigoism is contracted by being injured by a wendigo- and cannibalism is a symptom rather than a cause.

It injures you, you contract the disease, you start losing Wisdom (and gain an insatiable hunger for "the flesh of your own race" each time you fail Will saves)- and once you reach Wisdom 0 you turn into a wendigo.

So a human afflicted with it would seek out the nearest humans to attack, an elf the nearest elves, and so on.

[Katana_Geldar]

This had me thinking of that scene in The Silver Chair when Eustace, Puddleglum and Jill realise they're eating venison from a talking stag. Same sort of thing, I guess.

[Morquard]

This had me thinking of that scene in The Silver Chair when Eustace, Puddleglum and Jill realise they're eating venison from a talking stag. Same sort of thing, I guess.

Hmm, I wonder, is eating intelligent creatures still evil if you don't know you're eating it?
What about if you learn it afterwards, do you have to puke it up again so its not evil?

[Katana_Geldar]

They didn't know until the stag said he'd be tough.

[derfenrirwolv]

According to BoVD in D&D eating any sentient creature is cannibalism, regardless of their alignment

Wait, so eating girl-scout cookies will make me evil?

And here I thought their inherent evilness meant i was committing a good act.

[hamishspence]

They didn't know until the stag said he'd be tough.

The stag was dead at the time- but one of the giants said to another "So that stag was a liar then"- the second giant asked "How so" and the first mentioned that when the stag was caught he said "Don't eat me- I'm tough, you wouldn't like me"

That's when the realization kicks in for the three just what they've participated in.

It could be compared to Tantalus revealing the bones of the child (his child) the group has eaten, after their delicious meal- a severe shock.

[Thanatosia]

At least the fact that none of the order partook in the meal spares us any potential "Was Elan's consumption of pegasus flank morally justified?" threads!

[Scarlet Knight]

Hmm, I wonder, is eating intelligent creatures still evil if you don't know you're eating it?
What about if you learn it afterwards, do you have to puke it up again so its not evil?

"Look, if you feel guilty afterwards, we can dig a grave and you can throw up innit!"

[Serpentine]

Re. pressed duck: Hmmm. While strangulation isn't the most humane method of death, it's far from the least. I would think there's other, better, ways of killing it without losing the blood - breaking its neck comes to mind - but I don't think it breaches my culinary ethics.

Re. topic: aw, I thought this was gonna be a thread for possible recipes :smallfrown: And I thought unicorn shanks sounded so tasty...

[RebelRogue]

I fail to see how this food is cruel. Is it because the duck is strangled as opposed to decapitated? All the pressing is done posthumously.

I personally think that goose pate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras) is a much worse animal cruelty.
It's damn tasty, though! It's made from duck, too, BTW.

But really, I'd wager that most mass-produced chicken (a large-scale industry) lead far worse lives than the ducks or geese that are force fed to make foie gras (a small, gourmet market). As noted, som even let the animals overeat themselves.

[Cerlis]

It's damn tasty, though! It's made from duck, too, BTW.

But really, I'd wager that most mass-produced chicken (a large-scale industry) lead far worse lives than the ducks or geese that are force fed to make foie gras (a small, gourmet market). As noted, som even let the animals overeat themselves.


awa?

any animal dumb enough to eat itself to death deserves to be food.

Or drown itself in rain. Fracking turkeys.

Some animals are intelligent, scared interesting animals


some only exist to feed intelligent scared interesting animals.

[smuchmuch]

Of course (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_food_cake) it's aligned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_food_cake)! :smallcool:

That angel cake looks much more evil than the Devil one.

As for an "cruel" dish, how about bear paw soup ? (i mean eating bear, why not. but why the hell do they feel they have to mutilate them while still alive ?)

[Scarlet Knight]

Wait, so eating girl-scout cookies will make me evil?

And here I thought their inherent evilness meant i was committing a good act.

Wednesday: "Are they made with real girl scouts?"

[blackjack217]

kids meal...

[pendell]

Re. pressed duck: Hmmm. While strangulation isn't the most humane method of death, it's far from the least. I would think there's other, better, ways of killing it without losing the blood - breaking its neck comes to mind - but I don't think it breaches my culinary ethics.


Kosher and Halal require that an animal be drained after being killed, I believe. So this method would breach SOME culinary ethics, if not yours. IIRC, non-religious slaughterhouses drain blood as well, because blood can carry a lot of nasty things.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Serpentine]

I did specify "my culinary ethics", but more to the point, the dish in question cannot be halal anyway because it requires the blood to be preserved - thus the strangulation.

[whitelaughter]

They should have served minionions.

Well, they could have ionized these guys:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html

Or did you mean mini-onions?

[snikrept]

I wonder if this is why malack refused to eat with the rest of the class. Its not because he's an evil vampire its because he's NOT an evil person.



or maybe he's a good vampire...

This is a really good point I had not considered. Perhaps he *does* object to the eating of sapients. Malack gets more and more interesting by the strip.

[Morquard]

This is a really good point I had not considered. Perhaps he *does* object to the eating of sapients. Malack gets more and more interesting by the strip.

Well he doesn't exactly object to the eating of sapients by a horrible red dragon here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html)

[Serpentine]

Hey, just because the ancient Romans fed people to lions doesn't mean they were partial to a bit of long pig themselves.

[hamishspence]

What's interesting is that normal lizardfolk, despite being usually Neutral, tend to have less problems than other Neutral races with eating sapient beings.

Though it tends to be more in time of famine, than as a usual thing.

Being unwilling to eat sapients might make Malack somewhat unusual in that respect.

[dgnslyr]

Maybe Malack was being perfectly honest and all the rich, gourmet food, especially all that meat, is hard on his stomach.

[Squiggly-Thing]

Maybe Malack was being perfectly honest and all the rich, gourmet food, especially all that meat, is hard on his stomach.

Except Lizards are carnivores!:smallbiggrin:

[Cizak]

Maybe he didn't want to eat because there weren't alot of fish on the table.

[Kastanok]

Damn, now I'm hungry.

[Scarlet Knight]

Damn, now I'm hungry.

Care for a Devil Dog? :smallwink:

[John Cribati]

Well he doesn't exactly object to the eating of sapients by a horrible red dragon here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html)

Yeah, but this was supposedly the guy who killed three of his children. I'd have fed him to a dragon, too.

[Uncertainty]

There are some real life dishes, like pressed duck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck), that I will never eat because I find the method of preparation to be honestly cruel and stomach-turning.

While that does not sound particularly appetizing, I don't think that strangulation is any worse than the things that most mainstream slaughterhouses do to kill their animals (especially the industrialized ones, but let's not even go there.)

What is much worse, I think, is the comparatively common method of preparing Lobster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster), which almost invariably involves boiling the thing alive.

[King of Nowhere]

The list of dishes that may be considered evil is longer than it may appear. One thing I recently discovered is about swordfish (I believe): they form stable couples, so when a female is captured, she isn't killed, but instead wounded and tied to the boat. Her mate will smell her blood and come to help, and thus the fishers will take him too.

There is also a wild animal (don't know the english name) who will aquire a bad taste if killed with his testicles. So the hunters wound him, evirate him and then finish him.

[pendell]

What is much worse, I think, is the comparatively common method of preparing Lobster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster), which almost invariably involves boiling the thing alive.

While this is traditional, it's not always true anymore. I asked at my local seafood restaurant which offers live lobster. I was told .. and I believe ... that at Red Lobster (at least, the one I visited), the animals are killed immediately before going into the pot. One jab with a fork into the brain and it's "lights out".

I dunno how painless it is, but that seems to me far more humane than the traditional method, which requires boiling them alive. IIRC, if lobster isn't cooked alive or almost immediately after death they turn poisonous.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Uncertainty]

While this is traditional, it's not always true anymore. I asked at my local seafood restaurant which offers live lobster. I was told .. and I believe ... that at Red Lobster (at least, the one I visited), the animals are killed immediately before going into the pot. One jab with a fork into the brain and it's "lights out".

I dunno how painless it is, but that seems to me far more humane than the traditional method, which requires boiling them alive. IIRC, if lobster isn't cooked alive or almost immediately after death they turn poisonous.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Unfortunately, "killing" them in that manner does not necessarily change anything in terms of how much they feel. That animal welfare section of that wikipedia article explains it better than I can - but the problem essentially comes from a difference in a Crustacean's brain mechanics that makes it able to run even when severely damaged. A reasonable (if overly simplistic) metaphor would be to give someone a lombotomy before boiling them - their brains may be severely messed up, but they can still feel.

Freezing the animal, on the other hand, is a much more effective way of numbing them before putting them in the pot - and that one is a pretty common practice too.