PDA

View Full Version : handling a large group



big teej
2010-09-15, 10:56 PM
greetings members of the playground

for those of you who didn't see it, a few weeks back I posted up a "lookin for group" thread, in hopes of gettin tips on how to start a group on campus

well, I've met with great success over the past week or so

I have roughly 7-8 players

Teacher A - fairly commited to dwarf fighter
Teacher B - completely undecided, but commited to be ready by session 1
Student 1 - Human Ranger
Student 2 - elf druid
student 3 - half elf ranger
students 456 - undecided, have yet to meet with them
students 7 and 8 are pending interest/me meeting with them/scheduling conflicts

so I'm looking at a group of somewhere between 6 and 8 players, + me as the DM

I've never dm'd for more than 5-6 people (and I tend to count it more like 4 and two halves due to some of the players I had)

so I'm looking for tips on how to handle a large group, and how to bump up a module meant for a 4 player party to 8 players

(please do not suggest breaking up the group into 2 smaller groups, I'm already considerind going that depending on how the first session goes, I'm looking for help on how to make that first session as great a success as possible)

thankyou in advance

ready.....

GOO

Tyndmyr
2010-09-16, 07:13 AM
Aright, basically, you want all encounters to be two CR higher. For mooks, you can just double the mobs, but be aware that lots of mobs + lots of PCs leads to a slow game, so don't take this too far.

Alternatively, you can advance them two levels.

Be aware that you probably won't have all eight people at every session. Schedules being what they are, the more people you have, the more misses you have. This isn't a bad thing, as six is much more managable than eight.

For the first session, be there early. Encourage new people to come early too. There will be lots of questions, unfinished characters, etc. You want to get through this and on to the game asap, so the more you can handle in advance, the better.

Keep a lid on NPCs that might accompany the party. Eight people is already a lot. It gets messy if you have to move an army.

Use a map and models. The more people you have, the more this becomes a handy tool to show where everyone is relative to everyone else.

Encourage people to think about what they intend to do on other peoples turns, and keep the pace of combat moving snappily. Time limits may be required.

Shenanigans
2010-09-16, 10:00 AM
Our usual gaming group varies from 6-10 players, and I have both DM'd and played.

I agree with what Tyndmyr said, especially as regards the map and minis; they're practically essential with a group that size.

You seem to have lots of players who are new to the system. A training session of sorts might be helpful, with sample encounters to show how basic combat, spellcasting, AoO's, special attacks, social skills, etc. work in game.

One problem we tend to have with our larger group is side conversations. We're friends first and gamers second, so this is understandable to a point, but it's something our DM's always have to keep an eye on. Usually, a good adventure where everyone has something to do takes care of this.

That's also a hitch with a larger group. When you have 4 or 5 PC's, it's not too hard to make sure each character has a moment to shine during the session. With bigger groups, you tend to have a lot of overlap in roles (e.g. your two rangers and one druid.) Now I'm not saying you need to craft every adventure so everyone feels special and important-the players need to do this too-but giving everyone a chance is key, especially with a larger group where Rogue #3 can get lost in the shuffle.

Good luck!

Kaww
2010-09-16, 10:10 AM
I would suggest a smaller group, since you have plenty of new players. I personally don't have a problem with 6, maybe 7 players, any more cause more problems, it is difficult to pay enough attention to everyone. Since players are new you have to present the game well and DM well or you will lose them. My .02$

aeauseth
2010-09-16, 01:08 PM
Initiative is going to be an issue, always confusion over who's turn it is and who's next. I did a large group once and we solved (most of) this by having the highest initiative roll go 1st, then go clockwise. For example if the table layout is:

C - D - E
B - - - F
A - - - G
(DM)

So if player E had the highest initiatve then initiative order is E, F, G, Dungeon Master, A, B, C, D.


You can suspend some of the suspense by telling players the AC of the monster, letting them determine hit/miss on their own. This speeds up things a bit, but like I said reduces some of the suspense. I've never done this.

I've read stories about using an egg timer for each players turn, if it dings then they skip their turn effectively "delaying", giving them a chance to do their turn later (when they are ready). I've never done this.

I've also read stories about a speaking stick (or token) that gets passed around during initiative. Only the player with the speaking stick can take actions or talk to the DM. I haven't done this either.

I did a random DM campain where every session ended up back in town, so having players that enter/leave between sessions wasn't a big deal. Missing players were assumed to have been off adventuring elsewhere and just happend to earn the exact XP as the main party when they returned to the fold.

If the group gets really big then you might consider a DM helper who is really good at the rules who can consult with players on the side with "can I" or "how do I" rules questions.

Tharck
2010-09-16, 01:38 PM
For large groups and initative I have index cards. My index cards list their bonus to init, search, spot, and listen. When people roll for initi and I count down from 20 (+ highest init check) people state they go. As people go I align their index cards with the tops of their names showing. I place my monster cards in that mix when they go. After everyone is done, the next round index cards show you who goes when.

If someone delays I tend to remove them entirely from the stack (handing them their card is an option as well to remind them they're delaying.) If someone sets a standard or movement or free action for a particular circumstance I nudge their card a little out of line to the side - to mark they're waiting for something but if it gets to them again before they react they can make a new decision.

I've always gamed with 8 PCs, and myself as DM. For 20 years. The people on this forum are also awesome, enjoy their advice as well.

Tharck
2010-09-16, 01:48 PM
If you're playing 3.5 for determining encounters finding an ECL 2 above the PCs is usually a good idea. But do not raise their actual CR for handing out magical items, and if you're throwing a low number of high CR creatures - reduce the treasure they give by about 2 CR.

There's no clear and dry method for giving out encounters with this many people. Since combats can also slow down the game more with 8 people focusing on challenges outside of an encounter should be given more priority in thinking.

Finding ways to split the party to do multiple combats in different areas also helps a lot. Just remember to make sure the combats happen at the same time (not in game) so everyone is doing something and no one is sitting there watching people have fun or gain XP while they dont.

Trapped corridors leading to a key that opens the door the group is behind fighting a horde of evil monsters can be fun for the rogue to navigate (and of course fight a BBEG who's the smart and not physically strong type) ect.

I suggest taking it easy at first on encounter challenges. Scaling up after an encounter is much easier than scaling down in the middle of one. (Which imo you should never do - I dont pull punches.)

Shenanigans
2010-09-16, 02:01 PM
If the group gets really big then you might consider a DM helper who is really good at the rules who can consult with players on the side with "can I" or "how do I" rules questions.
That's also something we do. One of the more experienced players (also a rules lawyer par excellence) acts as Assistant DM, and fields rules questions, with the DM always giving final (dis)approval.

valadil
2010-09-16, 02:02 PM
I wholeheartedly support the index card method of initiative tracking. I also recommend calling out who is on deck. With 8 players, people are bound to get distracted while waiting for their turn. What will slow down fights more than anything is if the first thing players do on their turn is read the board and figure out actions. If you call out that they're next while calling the current player's turn, the next PC will have a whole turn to read the board and figure out actions. Then they'll have their turn (and hopefully dice) ready by the time their turn comes up.

If you get a lot of rules questions, I also recommend appointing a rules lawyer. The rules lawyer can answer questions during other peoples' turns while you run the actual fight. I'd limit the rules lawyer to simple answers. You don't want them deciding on how to rule ambiguities for you. But they can tell your groups wizard if his orb spells are in Complete Mage or Complete Arcane. Or recite how grapple works. Or remember how many actions will be needed to get a potion and feed it to the downed cleric.

big teej
2010-09-16, 02:52 PM
given that the first 'adventure' of the module consists of a 2 room dungeon crawl with 4 goblins

I really hesitate to throw more gobbos at them, I can only throw so many before those morningstars and clubs bring somebody down.....

but at the same time, 8 pcs vs 4 grobi = half the party potentially not taking part in the first adventure....


so I guess if anyone has a specific suggestion for this that'd be great (I'm thinking about them simply encountering a hunting party on the way back to town, or on the way there.

Shenanigans
2010-09-16, 03:03 PM
I don't know, 4 base goblins against 4 1st level PC's seems awfully unbalanced (in favor of the PC's) unless you give the goblins some sort of terrain advantage and/or a surprise round.

For example, you could have two of the goblins behind a wall with arrow slits, or have them on the other side of a shallow moat (not apropos for dungeons necessarily.) You could even have the classic goblin alarm bell, which will call 2-4 more goblins within 3 rounds, allowing the PC's to fight more baddies without being overrun.

big teej
2010-09-16, 05:17 PM
I don't know, 4 base goblins against 4 1st level PC's seems awfully unbalanced (in favor of the PC's) unless you give the goblins some sort of terrain advantage and/or a surprise round.

For example, you could have two of the goblins behind a wall with arrow slits, or have them on the other side of a shallow moat (not apropos for dungeons necessarily.) You could even have the classic goblin alarm bell, which will call 2-4 more goblins within 3 rounds, allowing the PC's to fight more baddies without being overrun.

my apologies, I was distracted during my last post and I worded it horrendously,

I was merely stating that the module 'as is' only contains 4 goblins and two rooms, and I am very well aware that this is no where near an even fight (I had a friend solo this segement by himself and he didn't take a hit)

my point about excessive amounts of grobi is I'm not sure how many are a challenge, but not one that will drag down first time players through bad luck and newbishness

(yes I'm very well aware I did a horrendous job of making that point in my last post)

the goal is to change the module as little as possible

aeauseth
2010-09-16, 06:32 PM
I agree with increasing the Encounter Level by 2. You might need to tweak for your particular party.

I disagree with lowing the treasure. I'd keep it based on the CR of the creatures (standard rules). You will be divying out treasure 8 ways instead of 4. Again you can tweak as needed. Try to keep party wealth inline the the tables in the DMG and/or MIC.

So a party of eight 2nd level players might find an EL4 encounter to be fun with a CR1 and a CR2 monster. (refer to DMG49)

An EL 6 would be a challange with three CR 3's. That's still 2+ PCs per monster.

An EL6 with a single CR 6 is very dangerous. Either the PC's will put it down in instantly, or the CR 6 will one shot a PC each round.

Better to throw more lower CR creatures at the party than single high CR creatures. It is a bit more predictable and allows more of the party to do something. Just be cautious that you (as the DM) don't gang up and pound on a single PC. Spread the damage around.

aeauseth
2010-09-16, 06:37 PM
For 1st level players, I'd limit the CR to 1/2 and EL to 2. Go easy on them until they reach 2nd level. 1st level characters are fragile, a DM critical hit is likely to kill someone.

A two room dungeon crawl is kinda short, if you can make it 3-5 encounters then give them enough XP (possibly via a bonus or something) to get them to level 2. Then you can take off the kid gloves.

big teej
2010-09-16, 07:39 PM
its a teaching module, with six adventures, I plan to go through the first 3 in session one....

so while I realize a 2 room dungeon crall is ridiculously short

as I stated earlier

I wish to change the module as little as possible

Shenanigans
2010-09-17, 08:55 AM
its a teaching module, with six adventures, I plan to go through the first 3 in session one....

so while I realize a 2 room dungeon crall is ridiculously short

as I stated earlier

I wish to change the module as little as possible
Well, if it's for teaching purposes, that's fine. I understand your reluctance to change the module. I've had bad experiences trying to change modules to fit a larger group.

I guess I'd just make clear to your players that the module is a little easier than they should expect later on. I think going a little easy on them at first is fine, especially until they really get at least a basic grasp on the rules and such.

Gray Mage
2010-09-17, 09:08 AM
Well, to adjust the module it'd be good to know the party composition. Anyway, there isn't much need to add lots of gobos, maybe give them a tatical advantage, better weapons or armor or maybe one of them a PC class. What module are you using and how is the first encounter? It's 4 goblins in a plain room, is there anywere for them to hide or something?

FelixG
2010-09-17, 10:05 AM
To handle the large group talking may become an issue. I would recommend a speech item. Make it distinct but easy to pass around, easy to tell where it is at all times. When clarity is important you pass the item around in subsequent turns, anyone who talks out of turn they earn a 10 xp penalty per word at the end of the nigh when XP is passed out.

This cleans it up rather quickly and makes sure everyone is paying attention. I have also had good success having players use something like a small white-board to pass notes back and forth if they want to express information without interrupting the flow. If your group is tech savy Nintendo DS chatrooms can be used in this way as well!

Tyndmyr
2010-09-17, 10:08 AM
Eh, I advise against the nintendo DS. Any handheld games, laptops, or cell phones can easily become a distraction. Once you introduce slowdowns, they feed off themselves as others become bored waiting.

valadil
2010-09-17, 10:37 AM
Eh, I advise against the nintendo DS. Any handheld games, laptops, or cell phones can easily become a distraction. Once you introduce slowdowns, they feed off themselves as others become bored waiting.

Agreed. It also means that when you call the PC's initiative and he looks up from his DS/laptop/iPhone, he'll have no idea whats happening on the board and spend upwards of a minute figuring out what's going on and how to deal with it.

Shenanigans
2010-09-17, 11:39 AM
Agreed. It also means that when you call the PC's initiative and he looks up from his DS/laptop/iPhone, he'll have no idea whats happening on the board and spend upwards of a minute figuring out what's going on and how to deal with it.
Second. (third?)

In fact, I'd consider placing a soft ban on smartphones and the like. I do like the white board idea, although that might get out of hand. I use a whiteboard for initiative sometimes.

Ranzunar
2010-09-17, 11:49 AM
Currently undergoing a similar scenario of DMing for 7PCs who seem very competent at gaming. When in doubt, do what you would normally do for a 4PC party and then double it. It's simpler to plan a regular adventure and then modify accordingly rather than rebuilding the dungeon, this works pretty well for modules as well. Good luck.

big teej
2010-09-17, 12:11 PM
here's what I was thinking of doing... just to balance things out

outside the dungeon are x gobbos (I'm thinking 12 - 16)

half of which are asleep, the others are posted a good ways off from the main group as sentries.

lone, not very awake, sentries.


does that sound like to many for a 6 - 8 man party with a possible NPC cleric as support?

I plan to arm most of the goblins with either short spears, morningstars, or clubs

Tharck
2010-09-17, 01:12 PM
Sounds good.

I'd recommend dropping the Cleric. Have the party utilize 5foot steps and potion drinking. They wont suffer much damage from this fight, even with 16 goblins awake.

big teej
2010-09-17, 03:31 PM
the cleric was meant to be more of a "last chance/worst case scenario" option

like if the squishy caster gets hit by a morningstar...


but if the playground beleives that potions can make up the difference against 16* goblins, so be it


*16 outside, + the original 4 within the dungeon that will not exit. for a total of 20 in adventure 1