[D&D 4e] Risky Rerolls - Houserule Help

[Thajocoth]

So, I'm planning for a game I might eventually run. Some of this was inspired by stuff I read in the Dark Sun guide...

What I want:
#1 - Above all, I want these to be tweaked until they look balanced
#2 - I don't want to be TOO harsh on players... Though, they are CHOOSING to take the risky reroll... They're never forced to.

Other Houserules in play:
- A player never has to keep track of ammo usage, weight of coins, or how much of their money is reagents.
- Inherent Bonuses make up the difference if magic isn't up to par for the player's level, providing a minimum enhancement bonus by level. Adds +1d6 to crit dice for each plus it adds beyond the magic weapon's dice. Example: Vicious Weapon +1 when Inherent bonus says you should have +3 = You get +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. When you crit, you deal an extra 1d12+2d6. (The 1d12 is from the +1 Vicious, while the 2d6 is from the extra two from the Inherent bonus.)
- Free feats: (Toughness or Durable) and (Something that provides a feat bonus to attacks and/or damage, such as Versatile Expertise)
- Instead of Magic Items, loot parcels contain Magic Baubles, explained at the end.

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The houserule is:

If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, you may choose to take a risk by rerolling it (once per attack). If the reroll misses, you take a penalty based on your power source:
Martial - Weapon breaks (or hand is sore/unable to be used for attacks)
Arcane - The attack hits the caster instead, ignoring resistances
Primal - Stage 1 - Slowed, Stage 2 - Weakened and Slowed. Unable to use a 3rd time in an encounter.
Divine - Cumulative vulnerable 2 to all damage
Shadow - Emit bright light in your space. Unable to benefit from Combat Advantage or Stealth. If this happens a second time, emit bright light in a Burst 1, still can't gain CA, and are Blinded (Blinded is save ends). If this happens a 3rd time, emit bright light in a Burst 2, still can't gain CA, Helpless (Save ends Helpless; Aftereffect: Blinded). Unable to use a 4th time in an encounter.
Psionic - Lose either a power point (two at Paragon Tier and three at Epic Tier) or start to get status effects.

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Further explanation of the Psionic Penalty:
If the player doesn't spend their Power Points (or they're a Monk):
Stage 1 - They grant Combat Advantage until the end of the encounter
Stage 2 - They're Dazed
Stage 3 - They're Stunned
Stage 4 - They are Unconscious

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To fix these things, you need to:
Martial - Equip another weapon, or repair your current one as a Standard Action. You can spend 1/5 of the weapon's mundane value (ignoring magic, what the weapon would cost) in repair kits. A repair kit is a roll of silvery alchemical adhesive.
Arcane - Healing powers or rests... The usual cures for damage.
Primal - Short rest
Divine - Short rest
Shadow - Short rest
Psionic - Short rest

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Why (Fluff):
Martial - In trying to fix your fumble, you made a risky move with your weapon
Arcane - Pushing the arcane forces harder backfired
Primal - You're just not feeling it right now, and primal power comes a lot from these instincts, so you're not as powerful.
Divine - Channeling too much Divine power too quickly can annoy one's deity, who may briefly protect them less
Shadow - Misjudged the shadows, pulling in light instead
Psionic - You give yourself a massive migraine from overtaxing your mind, making it more difficult to concentrate

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Magic Bauble - A Magic Bauble is a squishy magic sphere. If a player imagines an item they want and reaches into the bauble, they may find the item within. Pulling it out turns the bauble inside out, and it has no real inside, so it ceases to exist.

A Magic Bauble can create a Magic Item up to the Bauble's level with no problems. If the player wants an item of a level higher than the Bauble can conjure, they'll feel the Bauble twist to try to create it, and can choose to cancel this. If they proceed anyway, then they get a cursed version of the item they wanted.

1 level above - Minor curse
2 levels above - Major curse
3 levels above - Haven't decided yet - Either Creation fails, or the item gets both a Minor and a Major curse.
4 or more levels above - Creation fails

A curse drops the item's level and worth down to the level of the Bauble that created the item. A curse can be removed with the Disenchant Magic Item ritual by paying the difference in gold between the cursed item's value and the value it would have if it was not cursed. (No markup. Or should I have an Arcana check determine markup?)

I'll have to come up with a table of Minor and Major curses to randomly roll from... I'll make a thread for this at some point.

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Campaign setting: The Underdark. The players have never seen the Sun. It's a Nature check to even know what the Sun is. They've formed a party out of need for survival. They're currently being hunted by Goblin slavers, and can either fight or flee the region into an unknown area of the Underdark.

[Kurald Galain]

- Free feats: (Toughness or Durable) and (Something that provides a feat bonus to attacks and/or damage, such as Versatile Expertise)
Why would you want to give Toughness or Durable as bonus feats? This bonus is pretty good to some classes, irrelevant to others.


Martial - Weapon breaks (or hand is sore/unable to be used for attacks)
Arcane - Damage allies equal to half their surge values
Primal - Cumulative -1 penalty to all defenses
Divine - Cumulative vulnerable 2 to all damage
Shadow - Lose a surge (or a surge of hp)
Psionic - Lose either a power point (two at Paragon Tier and three at Epic Tier) or an action type (Like, you no longer get a Minor Action on your turns)
Martial - very harsh penalty. For most martial characters, their main weapon is going to be the most expensive item they carry.
Primal - very light penalty. Many primal characters either don't get attacked very often (e.g. ranged druid) or have such low defenses already that they get hit all the time (e.g. barbarian) and in both cases a -1 or -2 to defenses is not all that noticeable.
Divine - this is good. A reroll is good to have, and vuln/2 is nasty but not crippling. This means that you have a meaningful choice to make.
Shadow - light penalty, given that most characters other than defenders don't run out of surges. Generally, the party goes to rest when the first PC runs out of surges.
Psionic - losing a power point is a good tradeoff and a meaningful choice. Losing minor actions is, depending on your build, either crippling or mostly irrelevant, so that's less of a meaningful choice.

[Thajocoth]

Why would you want to give Toughness or Durable as bonus feats? This bonus is pretty good to some classes, irrelevant to others.

Because I don't trust myself not to completely overwhelm them by accident. It's DM-screwup insurance. The MM3 and later monsters are absolutely brutal, especially on level 1 players. And they've updated the previous monsters to match... The last two games I played were both at level 1, and we wiped in the first battle, but were looted and not killed, had one survivor at the end of that session, and I spent 90% of the second session unconscious, dying at the end, as the rest of the party ran away, dragging another player's unconscious but stable body. This was on pre-generated adventures... (In the Dark Sun book, in Athas, but still...) They are starting at level 1.


Martial - very harsh penalty. For most martial characters, their main weapon is going to be the most expensive item they carry.
Primal - very light penalty. Many primal characters either don't get attacked very often (e.g. ranged druid) or have such low defenses already that they get hit all the time (e.g. barbarian) and in both cases a -1 or -2 to defenses is not all that noticeable.
Divine - this is good. A reroll is good to have, and vuln/2 is nasty but not crippling. This means that you have a meaningful choice to make.
Shadow - light penalty, given that most characters other than defenders don't run out of surges. Generally, the party goes to rest when the first PC runs out of surges.
Psionic - losing a power point is a good tradeoff and a meaningful choice. Losing minor actions is, depending on your build, either crippling or mostly irrelevant, so that's less of a meaningful choice.

For the choices that are too light or too harsh to be meaningful, do you have any alternate options you could suggest? Also, no comment on my adaptation of Arcane Defilement?

For Martial, I was thinking of adding that when a Double Weapon breaks, only one end breaks. The other becomes temporarily a 1-handed weapon.

The Martial and Arcane penalties came almost directly out of the Dark Sun book, with slight edits.

If I didn't edit the Weapon Breakage stuff, then the Martial character's weapon would only break if the reroll was a natural 5 or lower, regardless of hitting/missing. Is that a better mechanic? Lower odds on average.

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Campaign setting, if it matters: The Underdark. The players have never seen the Sun. It's a Nature check to even know what the Sun is. They've formed a party out of need for survival. They're currently being hunted by Goblin slavers, and can either fight or flee the region into an unknown area of the Underdark.

[Kurald Galain]

For the choices that are too light or too harsh to be meaningful, do you have any alternate options you could suggest?
Possibly.

Let me ask you this: what is your goal here? And the second question would be, perhaps there is an easier way to accomplish that goal?


For Martial, I was thinking of adding that when a Double Weapon breaks, only one end breaks. The other becomes temporarily a 1-handed weapon.
That doesn't necessarily help, because a double-weapon build would likely have several powers and feats that depend on wielding a double weapon.


The Martial and Arcane penalties came almost directly out of the Dark Sun book, with slight edits.
Oh yeah, I overlooked Arcane. The thing is that "arcane defiling" is generally considered a weak option unless you spend several feats on improving it.

Apart from weapon breakage, Dark Sun has one important rule that makes it much less crippling: inherent bonuses instead of magic weaponry. As long as it's about a non-magical weapon or only a +1 one at higher level, then the cost is trivial.

[Thajocoth]

...inherent bonuses...

Oh, right, I plan to use these. Basically, if your magic is less than what inherent bonus you'd have, you get an inherent bonus for the difference.

Example: Vicious Weapon +1 when Inherent bonus says you should have +3 = You get +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. When you crit, you deal an extra 1d12+2d6. (The 1d12 is from the +1 Vicious, while the 2d6 is from the extra two from the Inherent bonus.)

Also, I meant that the Martial character's weapon repair cost is based on the price of the mundane, non-magical version of the weapon. Gonna edit my first post a bit to reflect things I've stated since then.


Possibly.

Let me ask you this: what is your goal here? And the second question would be, perhaps there is an easier way to accomplish that goal?

I think it would be pretty cool if the players had an option that added a little bit of chaos, that they had to choose whether or not to use, and was a real "on the fence" decision most of the time. I also want power source to matter somewhat for this.

[Esser-Z]

Weapon breaking is still far worse than all the others. Damage and penalties and such can be worked with, but breaking a martial guy's weapon makes him useless.

[Fingerlessfist]

yeah, i agree the Martial penalty is steep.

maybe they sprain their arm, or are disarmed? perhaps their weapon is only slightly damaged and does less overall damage.

[Esser-Z]

A repairable damage penalty would be reasonable.

[Thajocoth]

Weapon breaking is still far worse than all the others. Damage and penalties and such can be worked with, but breaking a martial guy's weapon makes him useless.

Because I'm using Inherent Bonuses... It's usually a -2 or -3 to hit, and a reduction of dice to d4s or d8s (depending on whether they pick up a big rock or something for a 2H improvised weapon), assuming they don't carry another weapon of the same type with them. Even a mundane version of their previous weapon will be almost identical... Lacking only whatever magic they may have had on it.

Even with Inherent Bonuses, you think it's too much?

[Esser-Z]

It's usually a -2 or -3 to hit, and a reduction of dice to d4s or d8s (depending on whether they pick up a big rock or something for a 2H improvised weapon), assuming they don't carry another weapon of the same type with them. Even a mundane version of their previous weapon will be almost identical... Lacking only whatever magic they may have had on it.

If they don't have another weapon of the same type (And who carries that, seriously), they now likely can't use their powers. Look at, say, fighter. A lot of those powers are based on a specific type of weapon.

So, yeah, pretty gorram crippling.

[Thajocoth]

If they don't have another weapon of the same type (And who carries that, seriously), they now likely can't use their powers. Look at, say, fighter. A lot of those powers are based on a specific type of weapon.

So, yeah, pretty gorram crippling.

A Fighter can still use all of their attacks Unarmed. Why does it have to be the same type? Some powers get bonuses for being of a specific type, but aren't unusable if you don't have that weapon type. The only case is for 2-Handed weapon powers. Minor Action - Pick up a nearby 6-12 lb object for a 2H Improvised Weapon.

[Esser-Z]

A Fighter can still use all of their attacks Unarmed. Why does it have to be the same type? Some powers get bonuses for being of a specific type, but aren't unusable if you don't have that weapon type.

Can he? Misremembering, then. It still sucks as a player, now being unable to do what you designed the build to do.

And, say, a ranged rogue is screwed. Is unarmed strike a light weapon? I'd imagine so, but I'm not sure.

But, do you get what a big penalty it is to say 'you're no longer fighting the way you planned the character to'? That's just mean.

[Thajocoth]

Can he? Misremembering, then. It still sucks as a player, now being unable to do what you designed the build to do.

And, say, a ranged rogue is screwed. Is unarmed strike a light weapon? I'd imagine so, but I'm not sure.

But, do you get what a big penalty it is to say 'you're no longer fighting the way you planned the character to'? That's just mean.

I think a character who plans to use something that could break their weapon would carry a spare or two. I know I did when playing Dark Sun. I had, like, 6 Scourges... I only wielded 2 at a time.

They player would know before rerolling that if they reroll, they risk breaking their weapon, and they don't HAVE to take the reroll.

Because I added a way to repair the weapon, it's only broken until the next short rest too, instead of forever until you buy a new one.

It does suck more for a Rogue to break their last weapon... Daggers are VERY cheap though. Easy to have a few.

[Esser-Z]

Ah, right, it IS something the player chooses to risk, isn't it? That does make things better.

[Kurald Galain]

I think it would be pretty cool if the players had an option that added a little bit of chaos, that they had to choose whether or not to use, and was a real "on the fence" decision most of the time. I also want power source to matter somewhat for this.
Okay...

Martial melee: you are disarmed. Your weapon flies 1d3 squares in a random direction (roll 1d8). Solved by moving there and picking it up, or drawing a backup weapon, or having the wizard use Mage Hand.

Martial ranged: your attack instead hits your ally that is closest to the target (roll randomly if there's multiple allies).

Arcane: feedback! The attack hits yourself, bypassing your resistances if any.

Divine: you have angered your deity (as above).

Primal: instinct overrides training! You lose (expend) the highest level daily attack power you have left; if none, you instead lose (expend) the two highest encounter powers you have left.

Shadow: darkness strikes! You are blinded EONT, as aftereffect you take -2 to all attacks EONT.

Psionic: overload! Lose 1/2/3 power points (as above), or if you don't have enough power points, you are dazed until the end of the encounter (the moral is, then, don't do this if you don't have enough power points!)

[Thajocoth]

Ah, right, it IS something the player chooses to risk, isn't it? That does make things better.

Is the risk tempting though? If the weapon breakage is still too much, even with Inherent Bonuses and probable backup weapons, then I'd want to modify it.

[Esser-Z]

Is the risk tempting though? If the weapon breakage is still too much, even with Inherent Bonuses and probable backup weapons, then I'd want to modify it.

I, for one, would never take it, if that helps at all!

[Thajocoth]

Okay...

Martial melee: you are disarmed. Your weapon flies 1d3 squares in a random direction (roll 1d8). Solved by moving there and picking it up, or drawing a backup weapon, or having the wizard use Mage Hand.

Martial ranged: your attack instead hits your ally that is closest to the target (roll randomly if there's multiple allies).

Arcane: feedback! The attack hits yourself, bypassing your resistances if any.

Divine: you have angered your deity (as above).

Primal: instinct overrides training! You lose (expend) the highest level daily attack power you have left; if none, you instead lose (expend) the two highest encounter powers you have left.

Shadow: darkness strikes! You are blinded EONT, as aftereffect you take -2 to all attacks EONT.

Psionic: overload! Lose 1/2/3 power points (as above), or if you don't have enough power points, you are dazed until the end of the encounter (the moral is, then, don't do this if you don't have enough power points!)

The penalty for Primal there strikes me as particularly harsh. The penalty for Shadow can be overcome with an eyepatch. For Martial, I'd prefer not to split up the penalty. There are powers that mix the two too, like "Throw and Stab", where it could get confusing. For Psionics, Monks don't have PPs, so their only option is to get Dazed or not reroll. That's why I wanted to go a bit softer than Dazing right away...

I really like the change to Arcane there...

All in all, very helpful.

EDIT: What if I kept the breakage for Martial, but changed the repair to a Standard Action? So, if you don't have another weapon handy, Minor to take out the repair kit, Standard to repair your weapon. Provokes AOs to use. Then, if you roll a 1 on that important dazing Daily, it makes a lot of sense to risk your weapon anyway, since at worst, you lose a Standard next turn, and at best, you hit with a good power.

I want these to be "Would probably use with a Daily. Would probably not use with an At-Will, unless it seemed like an encounter-ending killing blow."

EDIT2: What if for Psionics, if they don't spend the PPs, they grant CA for the encounter. If they get the effect twice, Dazed instead. Thrice = Stunned instead. Four times = Unconscious. It would still be a choice weather or not to spend them.

EDIT3: Shadow - Emit bright light in your space. Unable to benefit from Combat Advantage or Stealth. If this happens a second time, emit bright light in a Burst 1, still can't gain CA, and are Blinded (Blinded is save ends). If this happens a 3rd time, emit bright light in a Burst 2, still can't gain CA, Helpless (Save ends Helpless; Aftereffect: Blinded). Unable to use a 4th time in an encounter

Made a few modifications to the first post. Still thinking about Primal.

EDIT4: Primal - Just not feeling it - Stage 1 - Slowed, Stage 2 - Weakened and Slowed. Unable to use a 3rd time in an encounter.

EDIT5: I don't know... Relying on effects and having so many stages for these might be too complex. Perhaps I should just make it "Weapon" and "Implement" and use Martial and Divine's current penalties for them...