Wut? Half elf/orc?

[TheThan]

Ok so here’s the deal. I have an encounter for my pcs that could very well lead to a marriage between an elf prince and an orc princess. It’s a little complicated but here goes:
This marriage is a political deal to solidify a treaty between the elves and orcs. Now both sides are already benefiting from this treaty and the orcs want to solidify it through marriage…forcibly. Naturally the elves are not happy to have their prince (which is mistaken for a princess) kidnapped and are threatening war. While the orcs are pissed off after they discover the princess they kidnapped is really male. They are offended and feel they’ve been deceived by the elves and are also considering war. The PCs job is to keep war from breaking out (having been hired by the humans to keep things quite). Since the leader of the orcs has both a son and daughter; one of the possible solutions is for the PCs to convince the leaders to have the elf prince marry the orc princess instead of the orc prince. Which is something the orcs haven’t even considered (they still are holding the elf prince hostage) and the elves wouldn't normally consider.

One of the natural consequences of this possible outcome is the princess becoming pregnant. So I’m going to eventually want to introduce this potential offspring to the PCs (after some time has passed obviously). Anyway I’m going need some stats for this NPC.

I’m thinking something along the line of this:


+2 strength, + 2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, -2 wisdom
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elf/orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base land speed is 30 feet.
+2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Darkvision: Half-elf/orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-elf/orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
Crossbreed: For all effects related to race, a half-elf/orc is considered both an Elf and an Orc. He is always considered to be of whichever race grants him the greatest bonus or the greatest negative.
Automatic Languages: Common Orcish and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Abyssal, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: ??? Possibly fighter



I'm in need of a cool name to give to this crossbreed, as half elf/orc is sort of a mouth full. Also I'm thinking of making this kid sterile. what do you all think of what I have so far, are the stats good?

[Amphetryon]

If memory serves, the 3rd party book Bastards and Bloodlines has an Elf/Orc crossbreed. It might be useful for comparison.

For your creation, I'm not a fan of the WIS penalty, which seems to come out of nowhere relative to the parentage.

Perhaps the homebrew forums?

[Shademan]

Tusse?
tough it sounds way better in scandinavic...


then again, will you have ALOT of these corss-breeds around? if they are few, they are not likely to gain status as a species and thus not get a name

[TheThan]

Tusse?
tough it sounds way better in scandinavic...


then again, will you have ALOT of these corss-breeds around? if they are few, they are not likely to gain status as a species and thus not get a name

true I'm not going to have many around. but I need a name that not a mouthful to say.

also orcs get a –2 penalty to wisdom so the wisdom penalty isn't coming out of nowhere.

[Morph Bark]

Tusse?
tough it sounds way better in scandinavic...

That doesn't happen to mean "between" does it?

And I've seen a half elf/orc race on these forums that had some original things, like a bonus to Divination spells' caster level due to their "Gruumsh eye".

[hamishspence]

Elc?

Orf?

Not the most imaginative- but at least they're short.

[kyoryu]

Human.

Pure, normal, everyday human.

And then let the players ponder the meaning of that.

[Morph Bark]

Elc?

Orf?

Not the most imaginative- but at least they're short.

A good mixture of putting the two together and mixing them up could be Erfolc. Or Erfolk? :smallamused:

Also, a Cha penalty would suit them better. There are Elven subraces with Int boosts and Cha penalties and Half-Orcs don't get a Wis penalty, probably because they are usually Barbarians and while raging they can't use Cha or Int skills, but they still can use Wis skills.

[Marnath]

If memory serves, the 3rd party book Bastards and Bloodlines has an Elf/Orc crossbreed. It might be useful for comparison.

For your creation, I'm not a fan of the WIS penalty, which seems to come out of nowhere relative to the parentage.

Perhaps the homebrew forums?

It's actually an elf/bugbear. It gets +2 str, dex and con and -2 cha. +2 natural armor, low light vision, immunity to sleep effects, +2 to enchantments and +1 to listen and spot. It's listed as LA +2 but all of the LA's in that book are retardedly high so YMMV.

*edit: My point was that this would work for what you want, reflavor it as an elf/orc. Also, it is described as looking like a prehistoric elf, in other words it's a neanderthal elf. Big and beefy but not too ugly because you know, elf. This thing is gonna be unique so don't be afraid to give it the best of both worlds.

[Telonius]

Name suggestion: Eldarukh

Wedding registry suggestions:
Tome of Leadership and Influence +5
Everfull Mug

[Shademan]

That doesn't happen to mean "between" does it?

And I've seen a half elf/orc race on these forums that had some original things, like a bonus to Divination spells' caster level due to their "Gruumsh eye".

Nah, Tusse is a kind of fey around here... wiki it. me too lazy

[John Campbell]

<ic character="Toghrul">
Feh. Not ever happen. Elf seed too weak to get child on orc mother. Elf mother too weak to bear orc child.
</ic>

[Shenanigans]

I like the Orf suggestion...short, same number of letters as both parent races, plus it sounds kind of like an awkward exclamation, which is exactly what this child would be.

The +2 Str and +2 Dex seem appropriate, as does the -2 Wisdom. However, a half-orc, no matter what the other half, doesn't seem like it should have a Con penalty. Maybe leave it as is...the poor kid is going to have enough trouble fitting in as is.

Trouble fitting in...

Hey, maybe -2 Cha?

[Starbuck_II]

I'm in need of a cool name to give to this crossbreed, as half elf/orc is sort of a mouth full. Also I'm thinking of making this kid sterile. what do you all think of what I have so far, are the stats good?
Oelphi?

(can't write phi symbol) so we write phi
w= o

Well 1/2 Orc in ancient Greek is a'lphi wpk and 1/2 Elf is a'lphi elphi
So how about welphi which is written in english Oelphi for name.

[EvilJames]

In the olden days of yore (ie: 1st and 2nd ed [Also Od&d]) Elves and orcs were infertile with each other, as were all other goblinoids and ogres. the only thing Elves could interbreed with was humans. Something about there natures not meshing well genetically.

That being said. Who says this being will get much if any of it's parents strengths. There could easily be some genetic issues with the child (possible deadly alleles and all that) I actually picture it being somewhat infirm and weak which would add to the adventure later on as orcs cull their infirm. (I assume for your world at least) This would cause the elves distress as regardless of it's parentage it's still of royal blood and a possible heir to the throne (potentially both thrones if the orc leader's son dies at some point before making an heir of his own). Certain factions in the elves could also be out to get the child as for them it's parentage may be to much of a disgrace to ever even have possibility of sitting on the throne.

Just a thought. Particularly since I doubt you really intend for this to available to the PC's as a playable race.

[grarrrg]

THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR *da da da-daaaa* The Book of Erotic Fantasy!!


Elc?
Orf?
Not the most imaginative- but at least they're short.

I second calling it an "Elk" err... "Elc"

OOH!! Better thought, call it an "Alf", and give it excessive body hair, and a desire to eat housecats, and.....

[hamishspence]

I like the Orf suggestion...short, same number of letters as both parent races, plus it sounds kind of like an awkward exclamation, which is exactly what this child would be.

And unlike Elc- it doesn't sound like the name of an animal.

It does sound like a sheep disease though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orf_(disease)

[Fiery Diamond]

THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR *da da da-daaaa* The Book of Erotic Fantasy!!



I second calling it an "Elk" err... "Elc"

OOH!! Better thought, call it an "Alf", and give it excessive body hair, and a desire to eat housecats, and.....

I see what you did there.:smallcool:

Alf...heh,heh

[Project_Mayhem]

I'll be honest, bastard and abomination from the elves, and runt and weakling from the Orcs

[hamishspence]

Whenever the hybrid pesters someone- their response might be "I'm afflicted with Orf!"

It might capture the disdainful attitude both sides would probably have.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Being married doesn't mean the two are in love or would ever even consider having kids. Just throwing that out there.

[Shademan]

Being married doesn't mean the two are in love or would ever even consider having kids. Just throwing that out there.

not being in love does not mean there won't be kids.
the elves and orcs might demand that they, ahem, constumate their marriage?
whats that? thats not how it is spelled? well frankly I'm too tired to care right now. enjoy the mental image it brings, anyhow.

[hamishspence]

Mongrelfolk in Fiend Folio are a hybrid of human and many other races- including elf and orc.

Hmm- if an elf and and orc can't produce fertile offspring, can a half-elf and half-orc?

[Mordokai]

Hmm- if an elf and and orc can't produce fertile offspring, can a half-elf and half-orc?

Furthemore, would the result end up in the halves being joined, or the race parts being joined? And what would the result be in either case?

Ok, I'm probably just being silly and stupid now.

[some guy]

Human.

Pure, normal, everyday human.

And then let the players ponder the meaning of that.

I REALLy like this idea. Worthy of it's own adventure.

[AtlanteanTroll]

not being in love does not mean there won't be kids.
the elves and orcs might demand that they, ahem, constumate their marriage?

Touche. Maybe the female has damaged goods? I don't know, I wouldn't even rule it if I was the DM. Your making rules for a kid, the PCs wont even be around by the time the little bastards up and ready to be adventuring. Probablly.

[0Megabyte]

I gotta say, the "the baby is human" thing seems like a good fit to me.

Awesome plot hook, and the stats kinda make sense.

[hamishspence]

true- but it might raise the question- why don't humans have slightly pointy ears, and very short tusks?

Maybe (if not going with the "it's a human" theory) what it would look like is an unusually slender, pointy-eared, half-orc with almond-shaped eyes?

[Morph Bark]

Whenever the hybrid pesters someone- their response might be "I'm afflicted with Orf!"

It might capture the disdainful attitude both sides would probably have.

"I'm an Elk afflicted with Orf!"? :smallamused:


Mongrelfolk in Fiend Folio are a hybrid of human and many other races- including elf and orc.

Hmm- if an elf and and orc can't produce fertile offspring, can a half-elf and half-orc?

Wait, they were in Fiend Folio? Huh. I thought Races of Destiny was their first appearance.

And weren't Half-Elves and Half-Orcs infertile in 3.5 lore?

[hamishspence]

Not in Faerun- there's a whole nation of half-elves (Aglarond) which was created via centuries of interbreeding, and a nation with a high proportion of half-orcs (Phsant).

They're both fertile.

Fiend Folio mongrelfolk:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50086.jpg
Races of Destiny mongrelfolk:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86338.jpg

The Races of Destiny one looks better though.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Not in Faerun- there's a whole nation of half-elves (Aglarond) which was created via centuries of interbreeding, and a nation with a high proportion of half-orcs (Phsant).

They're both fertile.

I think (s)he meant with each other.

[hamishspence]

The 3.5 books didn't say. BoEF might, but I've never read it, and it's third-party.

The existence of mongrelfolk implies that part-orcs and part-elves of some kind must have gotten together though.

[kyoryu]

I gotta say, the "the baby is human" thing seems like a good fit to me.

Awesome plot hook, and the stats kinda make sense.

I'm seriously thinking about this in a campaign now. I can just imagine the moment of pure squick.

[dgnslyr]

Furthemore, would the result end up in the halves being joined, or the race parts being joined? And what would the result be in either case?

Ok, I'm probably just being silly and stupid now.

Well, a half-orc is also half human, as is a half-elf, so you'd end up with something half human, one fourth elf, and one fourth orc.



not being in love does not mean there won't be kids.
the elves and orcs might demand that they, ahem, constumate their marriage?
whats that? thats not how it is spelled? well frankly I'm too tired to care right now. enjoy the mental image it brings, anyhow.

I'm sure orcs can be very, ahem, forceful in that regard.

As for an actual answer, my idea is to take all the traits of half-elves and half-orcs and change the attribute shift. Half-elves and half-orcs are also half human, which is pretty neutral when it comes to racial abilities, not counting feat+skill point. Thus, a half elf, half orc would have no racial ability score adjustments and the traits of both half-elves and half-orcs. It's not like half-elves and half-orcs are very strong races. This does mean you qualify for both elf- and orc-specific classes, though.

[0Megabyte]

I'm seriously thinking about this in a campaign now. I can just imagine the moment of pure squick.

Best way to go about it is to not spell out what it implies. Just let the players stew on it! :smallbiggrin:

[Thajocoth]

I like the Human idea as well. Long long ago, that's how the Human race came to be and everyone just forgot. The Elves and Orcs hate one another enough that this fact has stayed secret for a very long time. Just add it to the setting background. Stealth edit!

But don't explain it. Maybe a few people are confused. Maybe many don't even realize this is a human, and they call it an orf.

[Ravens_cry]

If it's something new to the world, or at least extremely rare and uncommon, why should it even HAVE a name?
I wrote half of a short story about a orc elf crossbreed. Basically a wizard did it with a magically created external womb.

[TheThan]

I figured a penalty to con would be appropriate due to the kid’s mixed race. I figure it (gender is currently undecided) would have the same strength and grace as its parents, but be sickly, probably due to some sort of genetic issue. Anyway BOEF says that the two are not compatible, but what do they know half the book reads like it was written by a bunch of drunk jocks.

Anyway I’ve considered using this encounter to create a new race. I figure that the next campaign I run after this one would bet set hundreds of years later. With these two groups fully integrating and giving birth to some new race of half orc/elf people. Hence why I’m looking for a better name.

[Shademan]

I think the stats are fine
strenght: from orcs
dex: from elves
penalty to con: as you said, their fortitude is diminished due to genetical stuff...
penalty to wis: what happens when two very chaotic species do the honky ponky? yo get a VERY impulsive child.

[John Campbell]

Anyway I’ve considered using this encounter to create a new race. I figure that the next campaign I run after this one would bet set hundreds of years later. With these two groups fully integrating and giving birth to some new race of half orc/elf people. Hence why I’m looking for a better name.
You might let how your players decide to refer to them in this campaign determine, or at least influence, what they're called later on.

[Morph Bark]

Oelphi?

(can't write phi symbol) so we write phi
w= o

Well 1/2 Orc in ancient Greek is a'lphi wpk and 1/2 Elf is a'lphi elphi
So how about welphi which is written in english Oelphi for name.

...the Ancient Greek had no myths with actual elves or orcs in it. "Orc" is even an English word of sorts that came about after 1 AD. Same for "elf".

And the Phi symbol used in a word still is only pronounced as "f". Alpha-lambda-phi is pronounced "alf" for instance.


Not in Faerun- there's a whole nation of half-elves (Aglarond) which was created via centuries of interbreeding, and a nation with a high proportion of half-orcs (Phsant).

They're both fertile.

Fiend Folio mongrelfolk:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50086.jpg
Races of Destiny mongrelfolk:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86338.jpg

The Races of Destiny one looks better though.

I see. And yeah, I agree the RoD one looks better.

[Serpentine]

I'd try to work in the possibility of the elf prince and the orc princess actually falling in love - or at least getting along well enough that the idea of marriage isn't abhorrent to them, might eventually lead to genuine love or at least affection, and thereby make it not too bad as far as "doing their duty" (which could be pretty crappy regardless) goes. But that's just cuz I don't like the idea of forced marriage anyway.

On a personal note... For a unique, noble child of royal blood, I would probably go with the best of both worlds: +4 Str, +2 Dex, 30ft speed, Darkvision 60ft, low-light vision, immunity to sleep, +2 vs. enchantment, +2 listen, search and spot. It would look like a handsome, more masculine and robust elf with dashingly sharp teeth and pointed ears but long, elegant fingers and limbs. Would probably have an LA, too.
Alternatively, go the other end, with the worst of both worlds (not actually mutually exclusive from the above, considering more than one child is possible. Wouldn't that be interesting): -2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, low-light vision, light sensitivity. It would look like a runty, no-chinned weakling of an orc, with limp ears and a dull mind.
Or, half-and-half, average it all out: +2 Str, low-light vision, Darkvision 30ft, +1 vs enchantment, +2 vs sleep, +1 spot, listen and search. Generally... somewhere in-between.
Or, add the halves: +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision 60ft, lowlight vision, orc blood, elf blood, +1 listen, search and spot, immunity to sleep, +2 vs enchantment.

If I were to make it myself from scratch, as a usable race (keeping in mind that I've houseruled/homebrewed some racial stuff): +2 Str, Darkvision 60ft, lowlight vision, orc/elf blood, +1 listen, search and spot, immunity to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, orc and elf blood, proficiencies depending upon which people it spends most of its time. I like the idea of them being handsome and not particularly vilified, though, so a -2 Cha wouldn't be out of the question.

[grimbold]

thethan halforcs get +2 str and -2 int and charisma
there is no penalty to wisdom!
both races are rather wise in fact pathfinder gives half-orcs +2wis! i think that the child would have heightened wisdom because he must learn to adapt to his odd situation in life. Have you considered making the child la+1
my main point is give -2 to charisma if nothing else NOT wisdom

[kamikasei]

Name: yrchel, yrchar? Trying for an Elvish sound there (orc = yrch in Sindarin). Or have the elves use a made-up Elvish word for "half-orc" and the orcs a made-up Orcish word for "half-elf", and the PCs use whichever applied for the group they first talked to about it.

I'd try to work in the possibility of the elf prince and the orc princess actually falling in love - or at least getting along well enough that the idea of marriage isn't abhorrent to them, might eventually lead to genuine love or at least affection, and thereby make it not too bad as far as "doing their duty" (which could be pretty crappy regardless) goes. But that's just cuz I don't like the idea of forced marriage anyway.
I agree. You could treat it as simply a duty they're not particularly thrilled about but making the best of.

thethan halforcs get +2 str and -2 int and charisma
there is no penalty to wisdom!
But this isn't a half-half-elf/half-half-orc. It's a half-elf/half-orc. Orcs do take a penalty to wisdom.

Stats... I'd say +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha. I like the idea of it having normal intelligence, Poor Impulse Control, but inexplicable force of personality. Being physically capable but frail and lacking in stamina is a similar interesting dimension.

I'd probably just add in all the miscellaneous racial bonuses but maybe knock the darkvision down to 30'.

[bokodasu]

For a unique, noble child of royal blood, I would probably go with the best of both worlds
...
Alternatively, go the other end, with the worst of both worlds (not actually mutually exclusive from the above, considering more than one child is possible. Wouldn't that be interesting)

I like this - make the second version the lawful heir surrounded by scheming sycophants and the first version the "younger sibling" trying to save the kingdom from ruin. Political intrigue!

Or the "plain human" version, 'cause, like, woah dude.

[Aotrs Commander]

If yu're going to make it come out as some other existant race, why stick with human, when you could really freak everyone out. Illithid? Kobold? Dwarf? Dragon?

[Serpentine]

I like this - make the second version the lawful heir surrounded by scheming sycophants and the first version the "younger sibling" trying to save the kingdom from ruin. Political intrigue!Or else make it the other way round: the handsome wonderful one is the nasty evil schemer while the weedy runtling just wants the best for his peoples. Who do you think people're gonna listen to?

[hamishspence]

Subverting Good Is Beautiful, Evil is Ugly? Makes sense.

Evil Younger Sibling has probably been overdone- maybe subvert that as well?

[Shenanigans]

I would think that, if anything, the child would have better stats than either parent. When two different organisms produce offspring, the hybrid offspring tend to have the best traits of both parents, an effect known as hybrid vigor. This doesn't see much play in D&D, probably for balance purposes. I like Serpentine's idea of a child with some heavy bonuses, especially if this is just a one off type of character. In-world, no matter how special this child is, I don't see many orc/elf hybrids coming along...too much bad blood.

I do see a problem with Orf now...almost seems like an orc/dwarf hybrid.

[JaxGaret]

I would think that, if anything, the child would have better stats than either parent. When two different organisms produce offspring, the hybrid offspring tend to have the best traits of both parents, an effect known as hybrid vigor. This doesn't see much play in D&D, probably for balance purposes. I like Serpentine's idea of a child with some heavy bonuses, especially if this is just a one off type of character. In-world, no matter how special this child is, I don't see many orc/elf hybrids coming along...too much bad blood.

This is how Muls (half-dwarves) are treated in 3e Dark Sun (athas.org). They're basically stocky and strong like dwarves, but also tall like humans, so they're beastly.

You could use those stats, they probably match up pretty well, actually - I can't check because athas.org seems to be down right now.

[Morph Bark]

I'd try to work in the possibility of the elf prince and the orc princess actually falling in love - or at least getting along well enough that the idea of marriage isn't abhorrent to them, might eventually lead to genuine love or at least affection, and thereby make it not too bad as far as "doing their duty" (which could be pretty crappy regardless) goes. But that's just cuz I don't like the idea of forced marriage anyway.

Nodwick actually had a human noblewoman and an orc tribal king go to war against one another (as well as the noblewoman's brother's kingdom) with the intent of ganging up on her brother's kingdom for betrayal of their alliance, then settle for a peace sealed with marriage between them because they had actually been in love all this time but the people would have never accepted it under normal circumstances.

[grarrrg]

thethan halforcs get +2 str and -2 int and charisma
there is no penalty to wisdom!
Not trying to combine HALF-elves and HALF-orcs. Trying to combine FULL-elves and FULL-orcs
FULL-orcs have +4 Str, -2int, -2wis, -2cha
HALF-elves have no stat adjustments


both races are rather wise in fact pathfinder gives half-orcs +2wis!
?
According to the PFsrd half-orcs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/half-orc) get +2 any, not just Wis.

[Talon Sky]

Seriously people? Come one!

Call it an Uru-kai! ;p

[grarrrg]

Seriously people? Come one!

Call it an Uru-kai! ;p

Uruk-hai were cross breeds between Orcs and Humans, not elves.
That being said, Orcs were originally bred from/through evil-tainted-elves, but they became distinct enough to form their own (evil) race.

[Diakos]

I'd say the best of both worlds idea, +Str +Dex +Cha
Very catlike and predator-like, being strong and agile helps reflect their parentage and reinforces their ancestal tendency to hunting and running,
with the orcish hardiness reinforcing the elven frailty.
Mental faculties should be neutral with the orc's tendency do being dim replaced with a sharp predator-like wit, the elves inner clam evening out the savage nature of the orc leaving them a classic "still water runs deep",
the Charisma represents the exotic look and vibrant personality inherent in chaotic races.

As for looks, make them slender and wiry muscles, a slightly greenish metallic skin-tone, large mane of reddish hair, elegant features, sharp teeth, unusual eyes, very mobile ears.
A interesting idea might be also to make them very catlike mentally.
Charming, graceful, and dynamic, but with with tendency to "play" with those that slight, annoy or interest them, (play might include seducing, stalking and killing, socially/politically destroy them, or all of the above)

A wonderful and horrible race neither parent would want to see spread widely, if they knew the truth, and one close to the classic fey in nature.

[JaxGaret]

I'd say the best of both worlds idea, +Str +Dex +Cha
Very catlike and predator-like, being strong and agile helps reflect their parentage and reinforces their ancestal tendency to hunting and running,
with the orcish hardiness reinforcing the elven frailty.
Mental faculties should be neutral with the orc's tendency do being dim replaced with a sharp predator-like wit, the elves inner clam evening out the savage nature of the orc leaving them a classic "still water runs deep",
the Charisma represents the exotic look and vibrant personality inherent in chaotic races.

As for looks, make them slender and wiry muscles, a slightly greenish metallic skin-tone, large mane of reddish hair, elegant features, sharp teeth, unusual eyes, very mobile ears.
A interesting idea might be also to make them very catlike mentally.
Charming, graceful, and dynamic, but with with tendency to "play" with those that slight, annoy or interest them, (play might include seducing, stalking and killing, socially/politically destroy them, or all of the above)

A wonderful and horrible race neither parent would want to see spread widely, if they knew the truth, and one close to the classic fey in nature.

You could use the stats for Catfolk from Races of the Wild for that.

[hamishspence]

Nodwick actually had a human noblewoman and an orc tribal king go to war against one another (as well as the noblewoman's brother's kingdom) with the intent of ganging up on her brother's kingdom for betrayal of their alliance, then settle for a peace sealed with marriage between them because they had actually been in love all this time but the people would have never accepted it under normal circumstances.

And the R. A. Salvatore book The Orc King begins during the post Spellplague-era- "present day" for 4E- when an orc princess is being married off to a human noble. (Only the prelude and epilogue of the book are set in this period though- the rest is during the pre-Spellplague period.)

[Heliomance]

I'd say the best of both worlds idea, +Str +Dex +Cha
Very catlike and predator-like, being strong and agile helps reflect their parentage and reinforces their ancestal tendency to hunting and running,
with the orcish hardiness reinforcing the elven frailty.
Mental faculties should be neutral with the orc's tendency do being dim replaced with a sharp predator-like wit, the elves inner clam evening out the savage nature of the orc leaving them a classic "still water runs deep",
the Charisma represents the exotic look and vibrant personality inherent in chaotic races.

As for looks, make them slender and wiry muscles, a slightly greenish metallic skin-tone, large mane of reddish hair, elegant features, sharp teeth, unusual eyes, very mobile ears.
A interesting idea might be also to make them very catlike mentally.
Charming, graceful, and dynamic, but with with tendency to "play" with those that slight, annoy or interest them, (play might include seducing, stalking and killing, socially/politically destroy them, or all of the above)

A wonderful and horrible race neither parent would want to see spread widely, if they knew the truth, and one close to the classic fey in nature.

"Yeeeerrrss Nan-ny"

[TheThan]

A lot of what may happen depends greatly upon the actions of the PCs. They may actually botch the job really bad and spark the war they’re being paid to prevent. Really anything could happen. Though I am leaving the avenue open for the parents to actually fall in love, it’ll probably happen after they get stuck with each other but still I like happy endings.

Honestly I like Serp’s idea of the child being the paragon of his “race” with the best aspects of his parents. Should this explode into a new race (albeit one with a small population), then I’d use more fair stats. For this character I’m going to use kamikasei’s idea and tag a charisma bonus to what I already have for stats. For anyone other than the nobility I’ll loose the charisma bonus and knock the darkvision down to 30ft.

For racial proficiencies I’m thinking bows and axes (hand and battle-axes). That’ll give them a very Native American feel. Which I feel fit the orcs as a non-evil race as a whole. You know the Noble Savage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobleSavage) thing. Sure it’s been done to death but I still like it.

[John Campbell]

?
According to the PFsrd half-orcs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/half-orc) get +2 any, not just Wis.

In the beta, they had +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. It was changed to +2 any in the final... but practically all of the fluff is still written as if they were getting the modifiers from the beta.

[Serpentine]

For racial proficiencies I’m thinking bows and axes (hand and battle-axes). That’ll give them a very Native American feel. Which I feel fit the orcs as a non-evil race as a whole. You know the Noble Savage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobleSavage) thing. Sure it’s been done to death but I still like it.My notes on that come from my own houserules. Basically, if it has [race] in the name, it is a martial weapon for [race], and if a character is a mixed-breed then "cultural" racial traits depend on which culture they spent the most time with.

[Ravens_cry]

In the beta, they had +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. It was changed to +2 any in the final... but practically all of the fluff is still written as if they were getting the modifiers from the beta.
Yeah, I love Pathfinder, I think it does some good things with the game, but that decison didn't feel right to me. It was Intelligence in the beta though, not Charisma, that Half Orcs had a penalty to.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Well, a half-orc is also half human, as is a half-elf, so you'd end up with something half human, one fourth elf, and one fourth orc.


actually you end up with 4 possible combinations because (assuming race is a gene) the mother and father only gives 1 of its 2 possible genes (the orc has the orc {O} gene and the human {H} gene, the elf has the elf {E} gene and the human {H} gene)
1. human has the genotype HH (orc and elf both give H gene)
2. orc has the genotype OH (orc gives O gene and elf gives H gene)
3. elf has the genotype EH (orc gives H gene and elf gives E gene
4. orf has the genotype EO (orc gives O gene and elf gives E gene)

Note: i removed the half- prefix to save time

EDIT: sorry im referring to an older post i just thought i should address it

[Serpentine]

That only works if race is monochromosomal. Possible - especially for practical purposes in a fantasy gaming context - but realstically unlikely.

[DragonOfUndeath]

if race is polychromosomal then half-orcs and half-elves wouldn't be classified as a race as after the first orc-human or elf-human pairing you start getting normal elves with round ears or intelligent orcs that look nothing like humans at all.

[Serpentine]

What? :smallconfused:
What do you think half-orcs and half-elves are? Intelligent orcs and elves with rounded ears are perfectly valid ways of portraying a half-breed. Polychromosomy suggests that a hybrid will have some features from one parent (e.g. hair and eye colour), some features from another (e.g. build), and that others - probably most - will be somewhere in-between (e.g. intelligence, ear length). This is pretty much exactly what the game models. Subsequent pairings are only superficially a blend, but mechanically are one or the other (e.g. the child of a half-elf and a human would be an unusually petite, slightly pointy-eared human) unless it is a union of two half-[race]s, in which case it will just be a half-[race].

More importantly: how do you think real-world races work?

[DragonOfUndeath]

then every half-[insert-race-here] would be completely different and the stats would be invalid

[Serpentine]

Every individual is different, regardless of race. The stats represent averages, not definites. In humans, the average is 10-11. That doesn't mean that every human you come across will have 10 or 11 in every stat. It just means that, for any random human you come across, that's what his stats will probably, approximately average out to. Thus, your average half-orc is on average slightly less intelligent than your average human.

edit: Put it this way. Intelligence is determined by a variety of genes (and also acquired factors, but we'll leave that for now). It is established that your average orc or significantly less intelligent than your average human. This is because there is a higher frequency of the low-intelligent genes in the orc gene-pool - thus, an orc is more likely to inherit low-intelligence genes than high- or average-intelligence genes. In humans, there is a more even mix, resulting in more humans having an "average" intelligence, but probably (speculation, here) a wider spread of intelligences.
Now, a half-orc represents a mingling of the human and orc gene pools. You have the human "average" pool mixed with the orc "significantly below-average" pool, and pick out the specific acquired genes largely at random. The new mixed pool is somewhere in-between, probability-wise,* resulting in half-orcs, on the whole, being slightly less likely to be intelligent than humans, and slightly more likely to be intelligent than orcs.
This is encoded, in-game, in the half-orc's -2 Intelligence, which is between the orc's -4 and human's +0.

Now, Intelligence is just one of many factors that make up the in-game "definition" of a race. You apply the same things for Charisma (which may be more cultural), appearance, strength, and so on, although I would expect some things (such as, perhaps, Darkvision) to be monochromosomal, and thus either/or.

Is that a decent explaination of why race is polychromosomal?


*that's pretty much what genetics is: probabilities.

[DragonOfUndeath]

this would end up slightly different if you add in Dominant and Recessive traits, you are assuming that the 6 stats are co-dominant and a orc with 6 INT and a human with 10 INT will have a half-orc with 8 INT, what if lower stats are dominant or recessive?

although i cannot find any valid reason why race would be monochromosomal except by invoking either "The Wizard Did It" or "Intelligent Design"

[Serpentine]

No, I'm saying an orc with 6 Int has a particular sequence of several genes which are dominated (either in numbers or in terms of dominant/recessive) by "low intelligence" alleles, a human of 10 Int a sequence dominated by "average" alleles (or a balancing number of "high int" and "low int" genes), and so the offspring will have a random selection from that lot meaning, probability-wise, they are more likely to have an Intelligence of somewhere in-between.

I'm sure this is enough to make a geneticist cry (it's been a while since my classes on genetics), but I'm more sure that there isn't an "orc" gene or an "elf" gene.

[Rockphed]

Of course, we should assume that your players will probably act like normal PCs and steal or kill everything in sight. Hopefully this means they will steal the Princes and Princess, leading them on a whirlwind tour of the surrounding lands. Then again, knowing PCs, they will probably botch the whole think and doom everyone to a slow and painful death.

[Reluctance]

There's too many ways this could go bad, so I'd wait until things resolved before even the possibility of pregnancy came up, much less the adult stats of the offspring. And it's always fair to declare that the two races are not interfertile, especially if this is a politically forced marriage rather than a glimmer of understanding between the two races. (E.G: IMC, I decided that the eons of bad blood between the two races caused the mother's body to react very poorly to any mixed-race offspring.)

And if D&D inheritance followed any sorts of monochromosomal real-world patterns, you'd only be allowed one half-term in there. Half dragon half ogres throw a monkey wrench into that.

[DragonOfUndeath]

If D&D inheritance followed any sorts of monochromosomal real-world patterns, you'd only be allowed one half-term in there. Half dragon half ogres throw a monkey wrench into that.

yes it would if race was monochromosomal then there is a dragon gene and an ogre gene, a dragon would be DD (D=dragon gene) while ogre would be OO (O=Orgre gene) it just means that there is only 1 gene in all the many different ones that make up race.
monochromosomal half-ogre/dragon: has DO genotype
polychromosomal half-ogre/dragon: has FN (Fire breath and Normal breath) and numerous other things

[Reluctance]

My first thought was to go with a half-dragon half-fiend half-elf, but I figured Enor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html) was a better reference. I can still pile on as many half templates as I have available LA.

[grarrrg]

I feel I must remind everyone that this is a FANTASY game full of MAGIC. Applying real world genetics to, for example, a Dragon that, through magic, can breed with just about ANYTHING is just asking for trouble.


Also, the term "Half" as it occurs in "Half-Elf" and "Half-Orc" is a bit of a misnomer. It does NOT strictly mean "Half of (race)" it just means "significant portion of (race)". The word "Half" is used because it's quicker/easier/less-confusing then saying "Fair-Portion-of-Elvish-Heritage".
A good reference point would be the Ebberon setting as it has a good write up on the history of Half-Elves (possibly the ONLY good write up on Half-Elves)
Half-Elven Blood (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040906a) "Aereni claim that this is not a matter of physiology or genetics, but of magic"
Basically it says that genetics are moot, magic does what it wants.
Any non-same combination of human, half-elf, or elf, will result in a half-elf. (excepting a human + half-elf, which has a 50% of child being human).
Meaning that if you mate a half-elf + full-elf, the child will be half-elf.
Mate that child + full-elf, the child will be half-elf.
Repeat as much as you want, the child will always be half-elf.
It's family history may very well read 1/64 human, 63/64 elf, but it will still be a Half-Elf.
There are no HH human genes, or EE elf genes. Half-elf + half-elf will have half-elf children.

[hamishspence]

In Shining South- in the kingdom of Dambrath, beings with half-drow stats, can have as little as 1/32 drow blood.

You have to have at least that much to be recognized as one of the Crinti- the mostly half-drow rulers of Dambrath.

Those with at least 1/32 half-elf blood, that comes from at least one of the 112 half-elves that founded the country, also count- even if they have much less drow blood.

[DragonOfUndeath]

I feel I must remind everyone that this is a FANTASY game full of MAGIC. Applying real world genetics to, for example, a Dragon that, through magic, can breed with just about ANYTHING is just asking for trouble.


Also, the term "Half" as it occurs in "Half-Elf" and "Half-Orc" is a bit of a misnomer. It does NOT strictly mean "Half of (race)" it just means "significant portion of (race)". The word "Half" is used because it's quicker/easier/less-confusing then saying "Fair-Portion-of-Elvish-Heritage".
A good reference point would be the Ebberon setting as it has a good write up on the history of Half-Elves (possibly the ONLY good write up on Half-Elves)
Half-Elven Blood (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040906a) "Aereni claim that this is not a matter of physiology or genetics, but of magic"
Basically it says that genetics are moot, magic does what it wants.
Any non-same combination of human, half-elf, or elf, will result in a half-elf. (excepting a human + half-elf, which has a 50% of child being human).
Meaning that if you mate a half-elf + full-elf, the child will be half-elf.
Mate that child + full-elf, the child will be half-elf.
Repeat as much as you want, the child will always be half-elf.
It's family history may very well read 1/64 human, 63/64 elf, but it will still be a Half-Elf.
There are no HH human genes, or EE elf genes. Half-elf + half-elf will have half-elf children.

congratulations you just rendered all my debating moot :smallmad:

[Serpentine]

Not really.
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume (and I do it myself in my games) that basic real-world laws and mechanisms apply in the D&D world, with magic and the like as an extra element. So, for example, owls and bears are still ruled by genetics and natural selection. However, the existance of magic means that their genetics can be twisted to do things it can't do in magicless environments, such as meld together to make an owl-bear hybrid.

I reckon all (most?) the humanoids are at least in the same Genus, anyway... But then, can you imagine being a taxonomist in the D&D world? :smalleek: Dear lord, it's hard enough in ours!

[hamishspence]

True- it's fun to imagine D&D taxonomy though.

If all "true dragons" are the same genus- maybe the main species are Draco chromaticus, Draco metallicus, and Draco psionicus, which are further divided into subspecies.

Alternatively, the conventional groupings "metallic dragon" "chromatic dragon" and so on could in fact be polyphyletic- and the "true" relationships could be between "bat-winged dragons" and "fan-winged dragons"

In which case, the silver and bronze dragons, could in fact be more closely related to the chromatic dragons, than to the other common metallic dragons.

Speculation is fun! :smallamused:

[Serpentine]

I'd probably make them their own genus - maybe their own species, or several. They'd also be in their own category for a few levels up, with other "dragon-type" creatures fitting in at some point. I think they're ultimately their own class, though, at the same level as reptiles, birds and mammals.
I think "bat wing" vs. "fan wing" is a valid avenue of investigation, certainly.

Hm... I wonder if I have that phylogenetics program somewhere...

[hamishspence]

Class Hexapoda sounds about right- still vertebrates, but six-limbed rather than four-limbed (which would be Class Tetrapoda). (Some might have secondarily lost one or more pairs of limbs, like wyverns, landwyrms, linnorms, and so on).

As to humanoids- some could be the same species but different subspecies, some the same genus but different species, and possibly some the same family, closer related than, say, chimps, but a different genus (since sometimes different genera can produce fertile offspring together).

Giants might fall fairly close to humankind, even if they could be a different genus. The half-ogre in particular springs to mind.

[Serpentine]

I'll have to see if I can remember what the name of this program is, because it would be so much fun to use for this. You make a great big list of particular features ("Wing Type: Fan/Bat/Absent", "Length of horns", "Breath Weapon: Y/N"), and apply those features to each species. Then it takes that data and builds a bunch of possible phylogenetic trees.

[hamishspence]

Doing it without the program is probably somewhat tricky due to the difficulty of estimating the importance of features.

For example- the blue dragon has big ear flaps like the Red.

But, it has some traits more in common with the white dragon (no tall dorsal spines, short neck, fairly thick, solid tail, single horn (though its horn sits further forward, and points forward, rather than back as in the White Dragon).

Similarly- black dragons have big horns like red dragons- but their other features (plain earholes, and long slender neck) are a bit more like the green dragon. Plus their horns point the opposite direction.

[Serpentine]

It's a serious taxonomy tool. You can - and they do - put in thousands of traits, and as many species. It also comes up with as many phylogenetic trees as are possible/likely. Can't remember if it lets you weight traits, though, but it does allow for the possibility that traits can be lost and regained. It was pretty cool.


...I'm such a nerd.

edit: I think we used some combination of PHYLIP (http://evolution.gs.washington.edu/phylip.html), MacClade (http://macclade.org/index.html) and TreeView (http://www.currentprotocols.com/protocol/bi0602) in that class. Looking at those links, it might surprise you to learn that most taxonomists are not also webdesigners.

[hamishspence]

One thing that sprung to mind (especially when seeing that dragons were made magical beasts in 4e)- maybe various hexapodal beasts all stem from the same root, even if they're superficially very different from dragons and more like various tetrapods.

Say- hippogriffs, griffins, pegasi, and so on.

In Draconomicon 2- the feathered couatls are related to dragons- as are the lionlike dragonnes (under a different name).

Fur & feather is a pretty odd combination.

If this was true- then owlbears could be a spinoff of griffin lineage, that lost its wings and developed an especially robust build.

[Serpentine]

I think this is where that whole "magic would make taxonomy really hard" thing comes in :smalltongue:
I suspect the easiest solution would just be that "magic can cause a species to gain a "wings" mutation". Though that might make dragons just another bunch of reptiles...

[DragonOfUndeath]

i think that an owl-bear was made by a wizard using the Origion Of Species rather than a naturally forming creature

[hamishspence]

In Darkwell (book 3 in the Moonshae trilogy) an owl corpse and a bear corpse in the Darkwell, transmute into a new owlbear creature.

Still, an evolutionary origin for an owlbear (griffinoid that's lost its wings) might be an interesting alternative.

[Serpentine]

True. And if we decided that, for example, a pegasus is only superficially horse-and-bird - that is, it looks like a horse and bird, but actually it has a totally different origin, like a homology - that would make it simpler.

[hamishspence]

Yup.

A "high evolution, low magic" D&D world, which keeps all the monsters, but gives them more naturalistic origins, would work well with this.

Some sort of magic would be necessary to explain how these various beasties can fly, of course.

[DragonOfUndeath]

call it a magic flight bladder (full of at-will fly in liquid form) that is impervious to AM fields and call it a day :smallbiggrin:

[EvilJames]

"I'm an Elk afflicted with Orf!"? :smallamused:



Wait, they were in Fiend Folio? Huh. I thought Races of Destiny was their first appearance.

And weren't Half-Elves and Half-Orcs infertile in 3.5 lore?

Fiend Folio uses the more *traditional version of the race (a Lawful Neutral, pacifistic race that tends to be enslaved a lot) Races of destiny randomly decided to make them chaotic monsters with confusing racial abilities.

*by "traditional" I mean similar to the Od&d, and 1st and 2nd ed versions.

[EvilJames]

Yup.

A "high evolution, low magic" D&D world, which keeps all the monsters, but gives them more naturalistic origins, would work well with this.

Some sort of magic would be necessary to explain how these various beasties can fly, of course.

Not necessarily, IIRC the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly. Everything we know about engineering and physics says it shouldn't and yet it clearly does. Dragons could be like that.

[hamishspence]

That's a holdover from a very crude attempt to estimate how much energy bumblebees would have needed to fly.

More modern understandings of physics and biology solved it pretty quickly.

I don't think "modern biologists & physicists" say "physics says bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly" anymore.

[kamikasei]

Not necessarily, IIRC the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly. Everything we know about engineering and physics says it shouldn't and yet it clearly does. Dragons could be like that.
That's a myth that has to do with applying simplified models to cases where their assumptions don't hold. Dragons, by contrast, simply don't have the wingspan to lift their own weight unless you invoke magic.

[hamishspence]

Possible way of decreasing the amount of magic needed:

Dragons are much lighter than they look. Imagine a pterosaur, and take the same things- bones full of air, body full of air sacs, and so on.

A bit like the giant pterosaurs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus

which had fairly compact wings relative to their size.

[kamikasei]

I would point out that this implies they're much more fragile and in much more trouble if they try to e.g. claw someone than they're portrayed as being - but it's not as if strength and sturdiness make any sense in D&D anyway.

It does mean their ability to pick up people or things and fly away with them would take a hit, though.

[hamishspence]

Yup- a little less magic, but magic would still need to be invoked.

Lightweight bones might be surprisingly tough though.

As written, the flying rules allow for flyers to lift rather high amounts of weight relative to their Str. "More plausible" flyers, even big ones, might struggle to carry anything person sized.

[Serpentine]

The Flight of Dragons* has an interesting explaination: dragons were basically massive zeppelins, full of a honeycomb of bone and an acid. The acid ate away the bone, producing lighter-than-air gases, which gave the dragons their necessary lift. Their wings would actually pretty much have just been used for steering, and the firebreathing was primarily a method of controlling the gas safely. It also explains why no dragon remains would be found - the acid eats a dragon away as soon as it dies.

By the way, a world with lower gravity would also be reasonable.

Oh, and although they're nothing like D&D dragon-sized, quetzalcoatlus is pretty much a dragon without all the bells and whistles, while still being both real and massive.

*The published PhD, not the movie loosely based on it and The Dragon and the George.

[grarrrg]

The Flight of Dragons* *The published PhD, not the movie loosely based on it and The Dragon and the George.

Although the movie is pretty sweet.


That's a myth that has to do with applying simplified models to cases where their assumptions don't hold.

All tiny insects (not just bumblebees) are subject to this.
It's basically the square/cube law at work.
If an ant was 'scaled up' it wouldn't be able to lift its own body, let alone 50x its mass.
The "bumblebee can't fly" myth was mostly based on people testing on too large of models and such.

[EvilJames]

I kinda figured that the idea was outdated but nonetheless the concept could still be applied to dragons. We could simply not yet understand how they fly.

[hamishspence]

In the novel Natural Selection, by Dave Freedman, the large flying fish in the novel fly thanks to powerful muscles on the tops and bottoms of the wings-

which, when rippled in the right fashion both top and bottom, generate powerful lift- enough to lift a fish as big as a manta ray into the air.

These are a weird species of ray, just discovered in the novel, that (thanks to their massive brains and sharp teeth) are very dangerous.

[Ravens_cry]

I kinda figured that the idea was outdated but nonetheless the concept could still be applied to dragons. We could simply not yet understand how they fly.
In other words, magic.

[Heliomance]

Nope, in fact dragons use sufficiently advanced technology.

[kamikasei]

It's basically the square/cube law at work.
Ah, that's the part I was forgetting, thanks. Yeah, if you were to take Quetzalcoatlus and scale it up so that it could e.g. swallow a human whole, the wings would have to get proportionally larger.

The "bumblebee can't fly" myth was mostly based on people testing on too large of models and such.
The origins appear to be obscure. Another explanation is that it came from a back-of-the-envelope calculation that treated the bumblebee as a fixed-wing aircraft.

[Ravens_cry]

Nope, in fact dragons use sufficiently advanced technology.
So . . . dragons use jetpacks?

[grarrrg]

So . . . dragons use jetpacks?

Sorry, it's the best I could find on short notice.

http://www.148apps.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/photo37-300x200.jpg

[Snake-Aes]

So . . . dragons use jetpacks?

No. Dinosaurs do. (http://www.arcadebomb.com/play/robot_dinosaurs_that_shoot_beams_when_they_roar.ht ml)

[Ravens_cry]

No. Dinosaurs do. (http://www.arcadebomb.com/play/robot_dinosaurs_that_shoot_beams_when_they_roar.ht ml)
Heh, I've played that. Not the best online game ever, but fun for a bit.

[Marnath]

I don't understand the dragon flight debate. They obviously just have an incredibly advanced musculature compared to ours. I mean, look at half-dragon. That gives four times the strength bonus a halforc would have. That means the average half human, half dragon can carry 170 pounds more than the average halforc. And true dragons all have pretty high strength.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't understand the dragon flight debate. They obviously just have an incredibly advanced musculature compared to ours. I mean, look at half-dragon. That gives four times the strength bonus a halforc would have. That means the average half human, half dragon can carry 170 pounds more than the average halforc. And true dragons all have pretty high strength.

and lots of faux biobabble about their flight and how they are relatively light for their sizes.

[Marnath]

and lots of faux biobabble about their flight and how they are relatively light for their sizes.

Meh. Doesn't the book call them out specifically at a certain weight? I stick by my super strength theory.

*Edit: or "A wizard did it."

[TheThan]

Of course, we should assume that your players will probably act like normal PCs and steal or kill everything in sight. Hopefully this means they will steal the Princes and Princess, leading them on a whirlwind tour of the surrounding lands. Then again, knowing PCs, they will probably botch the whole think and doom everyone to a slow and painful death.

I know that the players are more than likely not going to persue this course of action, but still the option is always going to be open. Part of the campaign is going to be about the PCs dealing with the consequences of their actions. So I am not too terribly concerned with this for the time being. since the potential child won't be showing up for some time.



There's too many ways this could go bad, so I'd wait until things resolved before even the possibility of pregnancy came up, much less the adult stats of the offspring. And it's always fair to declare that the two races are not interfertile, especially if this is a politically forced marriage rather than a glimmer of understanding between the two races. (E.G: IMC, I decided that the eons of bad blood between the two races caused the mother's body to react very poorly to any mixed-race offspring.)


In this world, there is no racial “bad blood”, sure Elves and Orcs compete for resources (elves being more like wild elves or wood elves, though I’m using standard stats), but there is no religious hatred. In fact Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh don’t even exist. Instead the elves worship the sun and moon, while orcs worship natural spirits. In this scenario, the two groups are benefiting from not competing and sharing resources.

[Ravens_cry]

Meh. Doesn't the book call them out specifically at a certain weight? I stick by my super strength theory.


If they had the super strength to lift a dragon with those wings, they would have to eat like hummingbirds, with the wings beating like humming birds. Dragons appetites are prodigious, but not that prodigious.

*Edit: or "A wizard did it."
That's what we are trying to avoid here.

[DragonOfUndeath]

i say a documentary (not sure if it was real or a mockumentary) a while ago where they found a corpse of a dragon-like being in a mountain, they found a bladder-like organ that could had helium in it, apparently the helium could be used like a balloon to give them added lift and fly

[Serpentine]

I think I've heard of it, and I think it's a mockumentary version of the book I mentioned before (Flight of Dragons, it's pretty cool).

[DragonOfUndeath]

it might have been but the flight bladder still sounds cool

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: You know, I'm still having trouble figuring out what dragons have to do with this...

[grarrrg]

The Red Towel: You know, I'm still having trouble figuring out what dragons have to do with this...

Well, ya see, this guy wants to know 'bout tha birds an tha bees an tha elves an tha orcs, ya?
So me an me mates git ta statin them right proper, but then we go an git all "genetical" with it, an git ta discussin if they could even do tha deed, ya?
Someone brought up how a Dragon'll go an do tha deed wit right bout anyting tha moves, right? And how'n tha heck tha dragon'll have a kid with, say, a donkey, ya?
So then's me mates go on bout how tha dragon canna even fly! An so they goes and tries to be all "sciencey" bout it, ya?
Then this here bloke walks up an he's all like "
The Red Towel: You know, I'm still having trouble figuring out what dragons have to do with this..."
So then this mate of mine goes an he types wit this ORRENDOUS cockney kinda accent ya?
An he goes and he makes a bugger of a fool of imself, ya?
So's that's'n how's this is bout them dragons, ya?

[DragonOfUndeath]

Then this here bloke walks up an he's all like ""
So then this mate of mine goes an he types wit this ORRENDOUS cockney kinda accent ya?
An he goes and he makes a bugger of a fool of imself, ya?
So's that's'n how's this is bout them dragons, ya?

i hearby like this quote (BTW im also sigging it)

[grarrrg]

i hearby like this quote (BTW im also sigging it)

WHOO HOO! I'm an idiot for the wins!!

Side note: the derailed-derailed-derailed thread is now officially derailed.

Thank you for your time.