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Cogidubnus
2010-09-16, 04:02 PM
The formula:

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaterge 4/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 1+

You can replace the virtuoso levels with more sublime chord if you prefer.
The important thing is, (I'm not using this exact combo any time, btw), how good is it?

Also, as Sublime Chord gives you all wizard or sorceror spells, a list of the best spells out there (any source, just tell me where it's from so I can look it up) would be nice.

Urpriest
2010-09-16, 04:15 PM
If you want to know the best Wiz/Sorc spells, Treantmonk has a few threads on the WotC forums. Search for God's Tools.

You want to take the first level of Virtuoso before you take Sublime Chord so as to not lose additional caster levels.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-16, 04:40 PM
If you want to know the best Wiz/Sorc spells, Treantmonk has a few threads on the WotC forums. Search for God's Tools.

You want to take the first level of Virtuoso before you take Sublime Chord so as to not lose additional caster levels.

Why? Surely you can just use Virtuoso to increase your sublime chord casting?

Urpriest
2010-09-16, 04:54 PM
Why? Surely you can just use Virtuoso to increase your sublime chord casting?

You can, the problem is they lose a caster level at first level. You want that to happen before you take Sublime Chord, so you get the full bang for your buck. You take the other levels of Virtuoso after Sublime Chord.

Keld Denar
2010-09-16, 05:10 PM
Yea, Ur-Priest is right. Virtuoso is worded in such a way that it'll advance a PrC you had before it starts advancing spellcasting, rather then that you had before you started Virtuoso. Take that dead level before you start Sublime Chord casting so you end up with 10/10 SC casting instead of 9/10.

Also, if you aren't good aligned, consider taking Charm Person as one of your 1st level spells and dipping level 6 into Mindbender. It advances casting, but not music. You'd lose out on Suggestion, which is decent in OOC situations, but you pick up telepathy out to 100'. This is REALLY useful, even if you don't take Mind Sight from Lords of Madness (which is an AMAZING feat).

Another feat I really like is Lyric Spell. In general, you have WAY more BM uses than you need in a day. Especially with the awesome wizard spells you get to pick from LT, Lyric Spell gives you about as many spells per day as a Sorcerer.

My RL bard/LT got Ray of Enfeeblement and Cloud of Knives as his 2 LT secrets. I would have rather have gotten Benign Transposition, but my DM wouldn't allow it. If you can get it, take it, its argueably THE best utility wizard 1 spell for a bard.

gorfnab
2010-09-16, 10:53 PM
Usually for bard builds I suggest Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-17, 01:43 AM
Who wrote Lyric Thaumaturge to be better, in every way other than actually increasing IC, than simply continuing straight Bard? Or did they forget the Bard cast arcane spells?

Eldariel
2010-09-17, 04:09 AM
Who wrote Lyric Thaumaturge to be better, in every way other than actually increasing IC, than simply continuing straight Bard? Or did they forget the Bard cast arcane spells?

What are you talking about :smallconfused: Lyric Thaumaturge gives up all songs (Inspire Greatness is missed too, and later up more), has less skill points and a feat prerequisite. Overall, it's quite the nerf on a Bard, though Sonic Might is sorta fun (if not good).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-17, 07:49 AM
What are you talking about :smallconfused: Lyric Thaumaturge gives up all songs (Inspire Greatness is missed too, and later up more), has less skill points and a feat prerequisite. Overall, it's quite the nerf on a Bard, though Sonic Might is sorta fun (if not good).

There are other songs besides IC?

Free spells known and more spells per day? More than a tradeoff. Particularly if you can delay entry until after Sublime Chord. So Bardx/SubChord1/LyricTham9. You get more spells known off the wiz/sorc list at higher level spell slots, and get more spells per day to boot.

IdleMuse
2010-09-17, 07:57 AM
If you're wanting Inspire Greatness et al, and you can meet the harsh feat requirements, a dip into Warrior Skald (Races of Faerun I think) grants you ALL the standard bard songs at their requisite Perform ranks.

Greenish
2010-09-17, 08:19 AM
Sublime Chord had a decent song at level 2, I seem to recall. You might want to take that before going back to Virtuoso.

Bard 9 is a pretty good way to gain Inspire Greatness: it's 6 skillpoints per level, progresses bardic music and casting, decent chassis, excellent skill list. :smallamused:

Psyx
2010-09-17, 08:35 AM
You'd lose out on Suggestion, which is decent in OOC situations

What like: "Give us double XP" or "Joe: Give me your pizza?"

:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-09-17, 08:36 AM
There are other songs besides IC?

Free spells known and more spells per day? More than a tradeoff. Particularly if you can delay entry until after Sublime Chord. So Bardx/SubChord1/LyricTham9. You get more spells known off the wiz/sorc list at higher level spell slots, and get more spells per day to boot.

Lyric only advances Bard-casting so it's worthless with Sublime Chord. And Inspire Greatness is quite possibly more powerful than Inspire Courage; it just takes more precision and planning to use. Extra HDs allow for a lot of stuff (not to mention all the early entry stuff). Combined with Vest of Legends you can use it on 3 guys at once too, being plenty.

And the extra spells per day are from a low level earlier on and you'd never get the ones you truly want for SC anyways. Extras known are nice but losing out on song advancement, skill points (on a skill monkey class) and a feat is pretty huge.


Sublime Chord had a decent song at level 2, I seem to recall.

Yes, Song of Arcane Power is excellent. Also, the latter songs of Sublime Chord have their uses, but unfortunately SC doesn't advance Inspire Courage so people generally take Virtuoso instead (which has like one really worthwhile song, and that's the True Seeing one on level 10).

Cogidubnus
2010-09-17, 09:51 AM
Virtuoso also doubles your bardic music uses (stacks with bard and gets you virtuoso performance which can be used for music) and unlocks all bardic songs as soon as you have the perform ranks, so you don't need bard X. Hence why I was talking about using it to advance Sublime Chord casting.

Keld Denar
2010-09-17, 09:58 AM
Yea, DO use it to advance Sublime Chord, just do it in a slightly different order than you had. Your reasoning was correct, but your execution was slightly off. Take the dead Virt level BEFORE you start SC, and you'll be golden.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-17, 11:32 AM
Yea, DO use it to advance Sublime Chord, just do it in a slightly different order than you had. Your reasoning was correct, but your execution was slightly off. Take the dead Virt level BEFORE you start SC, and you'll be golden.

Thank you all for pointing that out. I was more responding to the discussion of the merits of the virtuoso.

Ed: Just looking at the Virtuoso now... and I still don't see any dead levels in terms of casting progression.

Eldariel
2010-09-17, 11:42 AM
Thank you all for pointing that out. I was more responding to the discussion of the merits of the virtuoso.

Ed: Just looking at the Virtuoso now... and I still don't see any dead levels in terms of casting progression.

Well, maybe you've got a different language book or something; the first level in the table is marked as "-" for spell progression in every CAdv I've seen.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-17, 11:47 AM
I'm looking at song and silence, which is the only place I knew the Virtuoso was. Meh. I'm using that version when I come round to doing it. xD

Tyger
2010-09-17, 11:54 AM
I'm looking at song and silence, which is the only place I knew the Virtuoso was. Meh. I'm using that version when I come round to doing it. xD

So long as your DM doesn't insist... the Complete version is 3.5 and thus supersedes the 3.0 Song and Silence version.

Unless, of course, your group is playing 3.0, in which case you're golden. :smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2010-09-17, 12:04 PM
I agree with everyone saying take two levels of SC. The second level ability is delicious.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-17, 12:14 PM
Song of Power seems alright, but increased CL ain't going to affect the spells I'm casting that much.

Eldariel
2010-09-17, 12:23 PM
Song of Power seems alright, but increased CL ain't going to affect the spells I'm casting that much.

It's fine in buff spells (extra duration, harder to dispel, occasionally greater effect) & offensive spells (harder to counter, longer range, occasionally increased effect); rest assured you'll find use for Move Action +4 CL.

Cogidubnus
2010-09-17, 12:36 PM
I suppose...Might go Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso X, because Virtuoso unlocks the extra songs (e.g. Inspire Greatness) after one level.

Greenish
2010-09-17, 03:20 PM
I suppose...Might go Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso X, because Virtuoso unlocks the extra songs (e.g. Inspire Greatness) after one level.Why not Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Virtuoso X? (If you're using the 3.5 version.)

Cogidubnus
2010-09-17, 04:56 PM
Why not Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Virtuoso X? (If you're using the 3.5 version.)

If it's 3.5, I'd do that. If not, I wouldn't.

Endarire
2010-09-17, 06:57 PM
Breaking Down Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8334.0)

Give your party mates +4. Their reactions will be priceless.