Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[ArcanistSupreme]

Silver key 10th level capstone Master of Doors gets you in MM. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)

Stealing, bribing or being a Githyanki will get you the Silver Sword to sever the cord that binds him, instantly killing him. If I can get close enough.

At the moment I'm wrestling with the aforementioned contingencies and locating the MM. Elemental Weirds or a hired psion may see some use there.

If you are planning on being a master of doors, you have to be a dwarf (no being a Githyanki). As for penetrating the MM, what happens when the MM in question is on the wizard's private demiplane?

And forget contingencies, you still have to deal with foresight and celerity, don't you?

EDIT:
Are Craft Continged spells tied to your highest caster level, or do they generally use the lowest possible (following the general rules for magic items)?

Skimming the text in Complete Arcane, it looks like it's whatever caster level you were when you crafted the contingent spell. Not sure how much that matters, unless you're planning on using counterspells.

[Adumbration]

If you are planning on being a master of doors, you have to be a dwarf (no being a Githyanki). As for penetrating the MM, what happens when the MM in question is on the wizard's private demiplane?

And forget contingencies, you still have to deal with foresight and celerity, don't you?

I was presuming that the wizard's corporeal body was in the demiplane, not the Astral projection - it hardly makes any sense for such an arrangement, considering those multiple high level spells you'll need to use to just to get back to your original position (at least 2 Plane shifts and Teleport without Errors a day). Besides, no one ever mentioned that before I brought up Silver key. :smalltongue:

3 levels in Stoneblessed will take care of race requirement. I'm also presuming that LA buyoff is in effect, unless you want to reduce the wizard to level 19 due to the XP costs of the contingencies, and barring Thought bottle and other shenanigans like that. (But the main plan is to steal or bribe for the use of Silver Sword. Shouldn't be so hard, being a rogueish type.)

Still working on celerity and foresight - like I said, the build is still in progress. Looking into Hellbreaker at the moment for Telepathic Static and Stowaway to foil divinations and teleportations.

EDIT: Apparently Silver sword has listed stats and cost in XPH, so I'll just add that to my WBL thank you very much. :smallamused:

EDIT 2: Mantle of Darkness should come in handy, too. Maybe get the Dark template via the collar, just in case though.

[Sewercop]

Best way to kill a tier 1 caster? Play in a game that dont use TO characters in play.

Short answer, you cant if hes a paranoid crazy persisted shapechange turtled astral projected contact other plane algorythmic foresighted celerity tinfoil forbidden mindraped genesis wizard thingy. And you have not even said hello to his simulacrum clone familiar gated legions of friendship cohorts and the tricks up his sleeve yet.
Wait...
You know, he probably would let you kill him just because he is a guy that just dont care bout death.He can spare 6 seconds of eternity to never have to bother with you again.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Just had a stupid thought that's surprisingly relevant:

What happens if the caster is a Lich? Then you'll have to find and destroy his phylactery, destroy him, resurrect him, and then kill him. You can't kill what's already (un)dead. :smallbiggrin:

[TheGeckoKing]

Right, i'm going to TRY something a bit less cheaper than time travel.

1. Become a lich. Can't be too hard. DN 20? That template class?
2. Make your Phylactry immune to everything divine/arcane and/or hostile(even passively). If you have to, use TtT, go back to the beginning of civilization, and spend 1000's of years to make it indestructable. Your a lich. That's what Liches do. They do things slowly. :smallannoyed:
3. Pay Asmodeus himself in other people's souls/platinum coins/NOT your soul
to protect your Phylactery from whatever might attack said pylactery. Spend more 1000's of years before the wizard is born via TtT to make an indestructable contract that the bugger can't twist. Offer that Asmodeus can wear your phylactery as a ring/necklace/bling, but that it can't effect your (ironclad) contract.
4. Make a deal with Boccob that you'll retrive a lost piece of magic text via Time Travel for your Phylactery's immunity to Disjunction/Other such things. Again. Your a Lich. Doing things the slow way is YOUR way.
5. Somehow get immunity to turning/rebuking. You've gotten this far. Your nearly there. Hell, your probably Epic by now, so it can't be too hard.
6. Laugh as the Wizzy kills you, only for you to appear at Asmodeus' side 10 days later. Said Wizard tries to Disjunct the phylactery, only for it to fail, then
he tries to kill Asmodeus. Enjoy the Curb Stomp Battle, and then share cookies with Asmodeus. Rince and repeat for any other bugger that wants to mess with you.

Now, yes, this long winded and probably un-viable, but it's a Lv20 Wizard that's trying to be a know-it-all. He had it coming. :smallfurious:

[BeholderSlayer]

Right, i'm going to TRY something a bit less cheaper than time travel.

1. Become a lich. Can't be too hard. DN 20? That template class?
2. Make your Phylactry immune to everything divine/arcane and/or hostile(even passively). If you have to, use TtT, go back to the beginning of civilization, and spend 1000's of years to make it indestructable. Your a lich. That's what Liches do. They do things slowly. :smallannoyed:
3. Pay Asmodeus himself in other people's souls/platinum coins/NOT your soul
to protect your Phylactery from whatever might attack said pylactery. Spend more 1000's of years before the wizard is born via TtT to make an indestructable contract that the bugger can't twist. Offer that Asmodeus can wear your phylactery as a ring/necklace/bling, but that it can't effect your (ironclad) contract.
4. Make a deal with Boccob that you'll retrive a lost piece of magic text via Time Travel for your Phylactery's immunity to Disjunction/Other such things. Again. Your a Lich. Doing things the slow way is YOUR way.
5. Somehow get immunity to turning/rebuking. You've gotten this far. Your nearly there. Hell, your probably Epic by now, so it can't be too hard.
6. Laugh as the Wizzy kills you, only for you to appear at Asmodeus' side 10 days later. Said Wizard tries to Disjunct the phylactery, only for it to fail, then
he tries to kill Asmodeus. Enjoy the Curb Stomp Battle, and then share cookies with Asmodeus. Rince and repeat for any other bugger that wants to mess with you.

Now, yes, this long winded and probably un-viable, but it's a Lv20 Wizard that's trying to be a know-it-all. He had it coming. :smallfurious:

I think you have drastically overrated Asmodeus.

[TheGeckoKing]

Then replace Asmodeus with a Greater Diety then. :smallbiggrin:

[BeholderSlayer]

Then replace Asmodeus with a Greater Diety then. :smallbiggrin:

You definitely overrated those...

[TheGeckoKing]

Come on. Your killin' me here. :smallfrown: Right, final try. Replace said Greater Diety with Pun Pun. Now, wait a min. There are so many ways Pun Pun can exist. Therefore, it's only logical that he DOES exist, as it must of happened. It's just an inevatibility (sp?).

[Radar]

Come on. Your killin' me here. :smallfrown: Right, final try. Replace said Greater Diety with Pun Pun. Now, wait a min. There are so many ways Pun Pun can exist. Therefore, it's only logical that he DOES exist, as it must of happened. It's just an inevatibility (sp?).
Hmm... it is a solution, since Pun-Pun is technically Tier 0. :smalltongue:

[TheGeckoKing]

There's a Tier 0? What does that make the DM then? Tier Dee Em?
Tier -1?

[Jolly]

If we're going by pure RAW then a diplomancer. Unless Batman never talks to anyone else he's now your fanatically devoted fluffy lil lapdog. I'm not sure how you'd Contingency that: any time I get really fond of someone teleport me to my Fortress of Solitude? Of course, diplomancers are an abuse of a broken mechanic, which I'd expect any DM to Rule 0 pretty fast. I feel the same way about Batman wizards though, so...

[Tyndmyr]

This isn't so much a batman wizard as a shrodinger's wizard, tbh.

[Adamaro]

I read somewhere about this pillar or obelix which, if you exceed something like DC 40 knowledge (planes) you get an exact location of a MMM.
So, I was thinking of an enemy crafting enlarged as-close-as-possible to CL 100 disjunction bombs.
So, after this wizards' location is tracked, these bombs are teleported and activated into his mansion, followed by a competent killer (supported by contingency spells), supported by trace teleport spell.
So:
- wizards residence is traced
- disjunction bombs are teleported in and detonated
- kill party is teleported
- kill party is attacked - contingencies kick in
- party drains wiazards contingencies or traces him while he is planehopping untill he runs out of spells and then entombes him just in case he is a lich

[Radar]

There's a Tier 0? What does that make the DM then? Tier Dee Em?
Tier -1?
Well, by it's wording Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability can in fact give you abilities, that don't even exist like "I win, no exceptions." It can't be compared to a mere paranoid wizard, who is bound by some rules. Some builds are beyond broken - I tried to find the Neo-Terminator (supposedly the only build capable of actually fighting with ascended Pun-Pun), but I can't find it anywhere. All I know, is that the fight ended as an epic time war with both participants abusing the Far Realms.

Also a very dirty trick (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2287.msg71122#msg71122).

[Sewercop]

If we're going by pure RAW then a diplomancer. Unless Batman never talks to anyone else he's now your fanatically devoted fluffy lil lapdog. I'm not sure how you'd Contingency that: any time I get really fond of someone teleport me to my Fortress of Solitude? Of course, diplomancers are an abuse of a broken mechanic, which I'd expect any DM to Rule 0 pretty fast. I feel the same way about Batman wizards though, so...

Hmm, from srd:
Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill. Since it is nonmagical, it can’t be dispelled; however, any effect that suppresses or counters mind-affecting effects will affect it normally. A fanatic NPC’s attitude can’t be further adjusted by the use of skills.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Diplomacy_Skill

So, if you are immune to mind affecting nothing happens. Since it`s an effect thishttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mind_Blank will make diplomacy yield nada.

And mind blank are kinda modus operandi for paranoid people in d&d.
And if the the guy you are trying to get down are a player it will never function.

[crizh]

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane denies access to all beings except the spellcaster.

Seriously?

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane grants the caster 1000 XP per minute that he is on the demiplane.

See, I can just flat make stuff up too. The DMG and Manual of the Planes give an exhaustive and detailed list of all the elements that make up the 'environment' of a plane. I didn't notice denying access on that list.


Within the D&D cosmology [] all planes have the normal time trait.

Just in case you missed that the first time I said it. One exception. Astral. Timeless.

[137beth]

While this is a legitimate house rule, keep in mind that it is a house rule and not RAW (which is part of the challenge).

.

Hence why I said we'd assume the wizard DID have bonus spells. Oh, and the wizard can keep extended foresight up 24/7, so he really doesn't need to worry about sneak attacks.


No, a demi-plane can't just deny access to everyone, though the terrain could be favorable to the caster (specifically it could boost spells of the wizard's specialty school and hurt everything else, meaning the only non-tier 1 threat in the core rules would be a sorcerer with a lot of those spells).

[BeholderSlayer]

Seriously?

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane grants the caster 1000 XP per minute that he is on the demiplane.
Experience points are not something that can be visualized by a character, so no, that doesn't work.

See, I can just flat make stuff up too. The DMG and Manual of the Planes give an exhaustive and detailed list of all the elements that make up the 'environment' of a plane. I didn't notice denying access on that list.



Just in case you missed that the first time I said it. One exception. Astral. Timeless.
The DMG also states this:

Access to demiplanes may be limited to particular locations......or particular situations
Therefore, the wizard can close his plane except on the singular situation that it is himself that grants access.

This exact quote is repeated in the Manual of the Planes on page 7.

Flowing time is explicitly outlined in the Manual of the Planes, and its uses are even specifically outlined to allow for flowing time abuse. The fact that established planes do not have the trait is irrelevant, it is an option and it may be chosen.

The quote regarding the D&D cosmology is irrelevant, as it is focused on planes, not demiplanes.

[jseah]

I read somewhere about this pillar or obelix which, if you exceed something like DC 40 knowledge (planes) you get an exact location of a MMM.
This is an Obelisk, as planar touchstone from Manual of the Planes (IIRC anyway)

A DC40 check (know. planes IIRC as well) + 8 hours concentration allows you to create a planar rift to the target plane.
This is the only way I know of to get into a Genesis Demiplane that has Forbiddence cast everywhere in it.

Unfortunately, the obelisk is a 30ft high immovable object, with a (relatively low) hardness and hp rating. IE. anyone attempting to use that obelisk will have to weather the attacks of the wizard, and more importantly, protect the obelisk from the wizard.
One of the self-simulacrums the wizard has should be tasked to continually watch the thing, since it's so dangerous. Or just outright destroy it.

Another way that the wizard could block you is to commandeer the plane itself. His simulacrum uses that check all the time to redirect the rift to his own genesis plane. The demiplane that the obelisk is on is then also Forbiddance locked to prevent anyone from getting there at all.

[Ormagoden]

If we're going by pure RAW then a diplomancer. Unless Batman never talks to anyone else he's now your fanatically devoted fluffy lil lapdog. I'm not sure how you'd Contingency that: any time I get really fond of someone teleport me to my Fortress of Solitude? Of course, diplomancers are an abuse of a broken mechanic, which I'd expect any DM to Rule 0 pretty fast. I feel the same way about Batman wizards though, so...

Yes, I agree, that's why I mentioned it earlier :P

[Darklord Xavez]

Just coup de grace them with an axe while they're asleep/trancing/whatever. If you use, say a greataxe and have strength of 18 (i.e. the envious party fighter), that's an average damage of 33, and a DC 43 fortitude save or die to boot. Casters almost never have good fortitude saves. Works even better if you're the party rogue.
-Xavez

[Sewercop]

Yes, I agree, that's why I mentioned it earlier :P

Yeah, still will not work. Mind blank takes care of that.

[BeholderSlayer]

Yes, I agree, that's why I mentioned it earlier :P
Mind Blank

Just coup de grace them with an axe while they're asleep/trancing/whatever. If you use, say a greataxe and have strength of 18 (i.e. the envious party fighter), that's an average damage of 33, and a DC 43 fortitude save or die to boot. Casters almost never have good fortitude saves. Works even better if you're the party rogue.
-Xavez
Since, you know, you'll regularly get close to a level 20 wizard while he's sleeping. He's also immune to sneak attack.

You won't get close to a high level wizard while he's sleeping.

[Adamaro]

@jseah
I am sure you can get a bunch of these in Phallic-objects-r-us in Sigil :smallbiggrin:

Also, with this, there is a target, a Wizard must hit as a sort of an preemptive strike. Which brings a bunch of problems for him. (like, say, entering AMF - a cunning enemy will know how to do it)

In such a hit, IMHO creatures like phane and its Null time field are in order. Just change field reach to say, 100.001 feet and DC to 9000. Or over 9000 :smallbiggrin:

A lvl 20 wizard does not play with lvl 20 meatshields but augmented phanes and the mentioned pillars. IMHO.

[Sewercop]

Just coup de grace them with an axe while they're asleep/trancing/whatever. If you use, say a greataxe and have strength of 18 (i.e. the envious party fighter), that's an average damage of 33, and a DC 43 fortitude save or die to boot. Casters almost never have good fortitude saves. Works even better if you're the party rogue.
-Xavez

Please tell me how you are going to get close to the caster?

[Darklord Xavez]

Since, you know, you'll regularly get close to a level 20 wizard while he's sleeping. He's also immune to sneak attack.

You won't get close to a high level wizard while he's sleeping.


Please tell me how you are going to get close to the caster?

1. How is he immune to sneak attack? There is no spell that does that, and sleeping in armor makes you exhausted the next morning.

2. Since when was this a level 20 wizard? Read the title of this thread again.

3. He's asleep. He wouldn't think to guard himself from the other members of his party, now would he?
-Xavez

[BeholderSlayer]

1. How is he immune to sneak attack? There is no spell that does that, and sleeping in armor makes you exhausted the next morning.

2. Since when was this a level 20 wizard? Read the title of this thread again.

3. He's asleep. He wouldn't think to guard himself from the other members of his party, now would he?
-Xavez

1. Robes, bracers, you name it of Heavy Fortification.
2. The entire conversation has been about high level wizards. Please remain on topic.
3. What party? (PS - Yes, he would think of that)

[Adamaro]

Hmmm. Upgrading my concept.
Modified phane: improved range of Null time field with just silly DCs, same range AMF field and an artifact shard - if a target of a disjunction, it disables casters' abilities (like all artifacts). Forever.

[Sewercop]

1. How is he immune to sneak attack? There is no spell that does that, and sleeping in armor makes you exhausted the next morning.

2. Since when was this a level 20 wizard? Read the title of this thread again.

3. He's asleep. He wouldn't think to guard himself from the other members of his party, now would he?
-Xavez

1: Many ways
2:I said caster, but the thread has mostly been agianst wizards. Have you read the thread at all??? Cause your build says otherwise.
3:Who needs a party?

[BeholderSlayer]

Hmmm. Upgrading my concept.
Modified phane: improved range of Null time field with just silly DCs, same range AMF field and an artifact shard - if a target of a disjunction, it disables casters' abilities (like all artifacts). Forever.

Kindof pointless when you can Gate in one of these. (http://img34.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=53500_IH_Neutronium_Golem_122_537lo. jpg#)

For good measure, gate in 13 of them....or maybe 20+ ancient great wyrm force or prismatic dragons....the possibilities are endless.

[Sewercop]

@jseah
I am sure you can get a bunch of these in Phallic-objects-r-us in Sigil :smallbiggrin:

Also, with this, there is a target, a Wizard must hit as a sort of an preemptive strike. Which brings a bunch of problems for him. (like, say, entering AMF - a cunning enemy will know how to do it)

In such a hit, IMHO creatures like phane and its Null time field are in order. Just change field reach to say, 100.001 feet and DC to 9000. Or over 9000 :smallbiggrin:

A lvl 20 wizard does not play with lvl 20 meatshields but augmented phanes and the mentioned pillars. IMHO.

I am curious on how you are going to change the reach and dc? Please tell me... Raw

[crizh]

Experience points are not something that can be visualized by a character, so no, that doesn't work.

I'm sure I can invent some other cheese that is 'visualizable' that is not also explicitly barred by the text of Genesis.



The DMG also states this:

Therefore, the wizard can close his plane except on the singular situation that it is himself that grants access.

This exact quote is repeated in the Manual of the Planes on page 7.

Yes indeed planes can be locked. This is not part of the 'environment' section of either book. Genesis only permits you to modify the environment. Those features of planes are clearly and exhaustively defined in both DMG and Manual of the Planes. Feel free to go nuts with Limited Magic but you can't deny others access to the plane. That quality is part of the underlying fabric of the plane not the environment it contains.


Flowing time is explicitly outlined in the Manual of the Planes, and its uses are even specifically outlined to allow for flowing time abuse. The fact that established planes do not have the trait is irrelevant, it is an option and it may be chosen.

The quote regarding the D&D cosmology is irrelevant, as it is focused on planes, not demiplanes.

Demiplanes are explicitly part of the D&D cosmology. The D&D cosmology includes demiplanes (DMG p147). Flowing time is detailed in the DMG on p168 in the section on Alternative cosmologies.

There are no flowing time planes or demiplanes in the D&D cosmology. Explicitly. As per the text of the DMG. You are free to use flowing time in your own cheesed out custom world but it does not exist in the baseline game.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm sure I can invent some other cheese that is 'visualizable' that is not also explicitly barred by the text of Genesis.



Yes indeed planes can be locked. This is not part of the 'environment' section of either book. Genesis only permits you to modify the environment. Those features of planes are clearly and exhaustively defined in both DMG and Manual of the Planes. Feel free to go nuts with Limited Magic but you can't deny others access to the plane. That quality is part of the underlying fabric of the plane not the environment it contains.


The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane.
Come again?


Demiplanes are explicitly part of the D&D cosmology. The D&D cosmology includes demiplanes (DMG p147). Flowing time is detailed in the DMG on p168 in the section on Alternative cosmologies.

There are no flowing time planes or demiplanes in the D&D cosmology. Explicitly. As per the text of the DMG. You are free to use flowing time in your own cheesed out custom world but it does not exist in the baseline game.
That would be what is known as a "house rule" and "DM fiat" and is not part of a theoretical discussion of the rules. The option is there, you may use it. The EXISTING planes may not have the trait, but this is a custom-created plane. Saying that a specific line about a specific cosmology that comes from a book about creating custom cosmologies is evidence that a trait cannot be used is a bit silly.

[Sewercop]

Arcane genesis can set the time traits The psionic one cant. (If i can remember right, im away from the books)

Anyway, too lock down your plane http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Forbiddance

[BeholderSlayer]

Arcane genesis can set the time traits The psionic one cant. (If i can remember right, im away from the books)

That would be correct.

Forbiddance isn't really necessary, as Genesis explicitly states that the plane has limited access.

[Sewercop]

Yeah, but it seems people refuses to understand what genesis can and can not do.A simple spell from the srd that states it clear makes thing a lot easier to get through to people.

[JonestheSpy]

Kindof pointless when you can Gate in one of these. (http://img34.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=53500_IH_Neutronium_Golem_122_537lo. jpg#)

For good measure, gate in 13 of them....or maybe 20+ ancient great wyrm force or prismatic dragons....the possibilities are endless.

So you're 125th level now, are you?

[Emmerask]

Mind Blank

Mind blank seems to only protect you from becoming a fanatic follower however it does not protect you from becoming helpful towards the diplomancer which lets you take risks for him which in the end will somehow lead to the wizards downfall ^^

[ArcanistSupreme]

Kindof pointless when you can Gate in one of these. (http://img34.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=53500_IH_Neutronium_Golem_122_537lo. jpg#)

For good measure, gate in 13 of them....or maybe 20+ ancient great wyrm force or prismatic dragons....the possibilities are endless.

Because there is no such thing as overkill.

[Jolly]

Mind Blank



Mind Blank makes you immune to fanaticism. It does not make you immune to someone talking you into something.

[crizh]

Genesis explicitly states that the plane has limited access.

Yes, a Demiplane has limited access. That's part of the very definition of demiplane. The key word here is limited. Manual of the Planes explains that this means that demiplanes connect to one other plane via a portal on that plane at the point that the two planes are coterminous. Even people using Plane Shift must do so at the point where the two planes are coterminous.

The portal is often keyed. Time of the year, phase of the moon, command word, etc etc. These restrictions apply only to the portal. If you are at the portal and have access to Plane Shift there is no barrier to entry.

Genesis does not specify that you are permitted to define the parameters of the portal or portals connecting your demiplane to the rest of the Great Wheel but it is not unreasonable to allow this.



That would be what is known as a "house rule" and "DM fiat" and is not part of a theoretical discussion of the rules. The option is there, you may use it. The EXISTING planes may not have the trait, but this is a custom-created plane. Saying that a specific line about a specific cosmology that comes from a book about creating custom cosmologies is evidence that a trait cannot be used is a bit silly.

Yes, you are proposing a house rule.

All planes within the Great Wheel have normal time. Endof.

In the shift to 3.5 flowing time was moved out of the main body of planar environmental traits, where it is in the Manual of the Planes, and into the later section for building alternate cosmologies. The traits described there are not available to planes in the Great Wheel. It's not very complicated. A whole bunch of cheese-mongers exploited flowing time in 3.0 so it was removed from the Great Wheel in 3.5. It's still there if you don't mind a bit of Gouda but it is still a 'house' option.

It's only available by DM fiat and is therefore thoroughly under DM control.

[ArcanistSupreme]

All planes within the Great Wheel have normal time. Endof.


One key point that I think is being missed here: All existing planes have normal time. There is nothing that says that they must have normal time, simply that they have normal time. While this could seem that it's a case of "well the rules don't say," it's actually a case of what is specifically outlined in the genesis spell. The spell says that you decide the traits of your shiny new demiplane. Time flow is a trait. Therefore, you decide time flow, even if other existing planes don't have a weird time flow.

Just because all of the other houses in the neighborhood are brown doesn't mean that you can't paint yours blue.

Plus, does this mean that plane in Eberron that is the reason that the Planar Shepherd is so broken (can't remember the name at the moment) is a lie?

[Lans]

Mind Blank makes you immune to fanaticism. It does not make you immune to someone talking you into something.

"Look you'll only be dead for like 10 minutes and you'll feel like you've rested for eight hours. Thats another 7 hours in which you can do things. Its total win."

On a slightly more or less serious not
For Celerity+foresight+contigency
Belt of battle or levels of factotum.
Use two extra standard actions to ready two actions.
One is to interrupt celerity with a maximized force orb.
One is to interrupt contingency with Dimensional Anchor or what ever the anti 'port spell of choice is.

[Doug Lampert]

Technically, that is correct, as everything in DnD is dependent on the whim of the DM - red dragons can breathe popcorn and dwarves can fart prismatic spheres if the DM wants for their personal campaign.

However, there are the Core Rules/SRD that are the foundation that everything else is built upon and are regarded as dogma when having discussions about the game. All the rest is even-more-optional, and as I said, my personal opinion is that allowing blatantly overpowered stuff like Celerity is just asking for gross game imbalance.

Just because WotC published it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

True, consider Gate, Planar Binding, Polymorph, Shapechange, Time Stop, Astral Projection, ...

And for the other characters there's always RaW Diplomacy.

D&D 3.x is BROKEN. This starts in core and gets (very very slightly) worse with splats. The way you make it work is to play with people who either don't notice that it's broken or who are willing to ignore it and not touch the broken parts.

(Diplomacy is actually one of the most annoying broken parts to me, because a perfectly legitimate character concept is the social bard, and he will break the game BY ACCIDENT, the concept can't really be used without breaking the game because those rules are so broken so people not noticing is no defense if someone chooses to play a bard that is serious about diplomacy.)

[Kirgoth]

Could you create a safe haven, a large self-sufficient demiplane with "dead magic" and a single permanent entry portal with limited access ( stop undead/abberation armies and such entering). Then just ignore the silly mages, they can enter if they like but are little more than commoners within and would have to behave or have their butts kicked by tier 5's.

Killing them:
Assuming they have multiple clones hidden in several closed and hidden demi-planes and use astral projection from a closed demi-plane where their real bodies are turtles and are in suspended animation. Also they are super intelligent and would work out all the possible tricks to get them and take counter-measures using contingent spell.

Use alter reality with metaconcert to transport all his clones and his original body which is in suspended animation ( no save ?) into the "safe haven". Drop him in an arena full of angry housecats and laugh.

[BeholderSlayer]

So you're 125th level now, are you?
A 20th level spellcaster can obtain a CL of 125 fairly easily. A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/ScM 4/Spellthief 1 can at least obtain a CL of 277. The CL record for a 20th level character is higher than 38,000. That's high enough to travel >Mach 400 on a Phantom Steed with Reserves of Strength.

Oh and dare I mention, the same character has >250 9th level spells memorized as 20th level spells, or suitably metamagic'd spells (Maximized Empowered Time Stop, etc.), and 24 hour Shapechange with one casting, and Gate with no XP cost.


Yes, a Demiplane has limited access. That's part of the very definition of demiplane. The key word here is limited. Manual of the Planes explains that this means that demiplanes connect to one other plane via a portal on that plane at the point that the two planes are coterminous. Even people using Plane Shift must do so at the point where the two planes are coterminous.

The portal is often keyed. Time of the year, phase of the moon, command word, etc etc. These restrictions apply only to the portal. If you are at the portal and have access to Plane Shift there is no barrier to entry. It need not be keyed to a portal, it can be keyed to a situation.


Genesis does not specify that you are permitted to define the parameters of the portal or portals connecting your demiplane to the rest of the Great Wheel but it is not unreasonable to allow this.
I'm glad we agree, so the key is made to be the situation that wizard grants access. Impenetrable.


Yes, you are proposing a house rule.

All planes within the Great Wheel have normal time. Endof.

In the shift to 3.5 flowing time was moved out of the main body of planar environmental traits, where it is in the Manual of the Planes, and into the later section for building alternate cosmologies. The traits described there are not available to planes in the Great Wheel. It's not very complicated. A whole bunch of cheese-mongers exploited flowing time in 3.0 so it was removed from the Great Wheel in 3.5. It's still there if you don't mind a bit of Gouda but it is still a 'house' option.

It's only available by DM fiat and is therefore thoroughly under DM control.
When having a theoretical discussion, all options are open. DM fiat is a variable and thus not relevant. You must have a common ground for discussion, thus all options must be open if they are printed.

[ArcanistSupreme]

A 20th level spellcaster can obtain a CL of 125 fairly easily. A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/ScM 4/Spellthief 1 can at least obtain a CL of 277. The CL record for a 20th level character is higher than 38,000. That's high enough to travel >Mach 400 on a Phantom Steed with Reserves of Strength.

Oh and dare I mention, the same character has >250 9th level spells memorized as 20th level spells, or suitably metamagic'd spells (Maximized Empowered Time Stop, etc.), and 24 hour Shapechange with one casting, and Gate with no XP cost.

Now I'm curious. Do you have a link?

[BeholderSlayer]

Now I'm curious. Do you have a link?

Ah, I made a minor mistake. The record is actually 37,803 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5394.msg248753#msg248753). My brain switched the 7 and the 8.

I think that number could actually be higher using some circle magic and node spellcasting.

I don't have a link to the 277 CL with 250+ level 9 spells as level 20s, but that's because it involves a lot of process. It's mostly in my head, I worked out the numbers across many posts. I can't claim most of the ideas as my own, I mostly worked out the math with help from others for concepts.

[JonestheSpy]

A 20th level spellcaster can obtain a CL of 125 fairly easily. A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/ScM 4/Spellthief 1 can at least obtain a CL of 277. The CL record for a 20th level character is higher than 38,000. That's high enough to travel >Mach 400 on a Phantom Steed with Reserves of Strength.

Oh and dare I mention, the same character has >250 9th level spells memorized as 20th level spells, or suitably metamagic'd spells (Maximized Empowered Time Stop, etc.), and 24 hour Shapechange with one casting, and Gate with no XP cost.

Umm, yeah. Right. You just have fun with that.



When having a theoretical discussion, all options are open. DM fiat is a variable and thus not relevant. You must have a common ground for discussion, thus all options must be open if they are printed.

You seem to be laboring under the gross misapprehension that "printed"="common ground". Even so, I seriously doubt you'd find common ground with many players in regards to having the caster described in your first paragraph, even if they did play with every splatbook ever published.





D&D 3.x is BROKEN. This starts in core and gets (very very slightly) worse with splats.

Yeah, I hear that line a lot, and yet if you look at all the ridiculous uberbuilds in this very thread, they almost all involve some kind of non-core cheese, usually quite a lot of it. Yes, there's overpowered stuff in Core, but not it's really not all that much, and most of it easily fixable with a tweak or two. That's nothing compared to wizards with insane numbers of contingencies crafted or clerics with Persist spell and a bagful of nightsticks.

[BeholderSlayer]

Umm, yeah. Right. You just have fun with that.




You seem to be laboring under the gross misapprehension that "printed"="common ground". Even so, I seriously doubt you'd find common ground with many players in regards to having the caster described in your first paragraph, even if they did play with every splatbook ever published.

This is a theoretical discussion, not an actual gaming session. In a theoretical discussion the only common ground there happens to be is what is printed.

[Gametime]

You seem to be laboring under the gross misapprehension that "printed"="common ground". Even so, I seriously doubt you'd find common ground with many players in regards to having the caster described in your first paragraph, even if they did play with every splatbook ever published.

I don't see how setting arbitrary and poorly-defined limitations on what material the wizard can or cannot use helps us measure the theoretical strengths or weaknesses of a wizard.



Yeah, I hear that line a lot, and yet if you look at all the ridiculous uberbuilds in this very thread, they almost all involve some kind of non-core cheese, usually quite a lot of it. Yes, there's overpowered stuff in Core, but not it's really not all that much, and most of it easily fixable with a tweak or two. That's nothing compared to wizards with insane numbers of contingencies crafted or clerics with Persist spell and a bagful of nightsticks.

Almost every "broken" spell, feat, ability, or combination thereof is "easily fixable" in the sense that it can be ignored or disallowed. One's ability to ignore the rules says little about the quality of the rules themselves.

Crazy-go-nuts optimization gets a lot easier when you allow all the material, no question about it. A wizard doesn't need to be crazy-go-nuts to have world-shattering power, though, and short of just banning such options there isn't much you can do about it.

Notably, most of the viable responses to a properly prepared wizard draw on material from outside core. The wizard's competition gains a lot more than he does.

[JonestheSpy]

I don't see how setting arbitrary and poorly-defined limitations on what material the wizard can or cannot use helps us measure the theoretical strengths or weaknesses of a wizard.

Um, you think the SRD is "arbitrary" and "poorly defined"?



Almost every "broken" spell, feat, ability, or combination thereof is "easily fixable" in the sense that it can be ignored or disallowed. One's ability to ignore the rules says little about the quality of the rules themselves.

Most Core stuff doesn't need to be banned. A lot of the abuse comes from vague wording that the DM can interpret as they see fit - e.g. all the hoopla about the Genesis spell. And as for the trick about using Genesis+Astral Projection, the A.P. spell specifically says the body of the caster has to be left on the Material Plane (look it up if you don't believe me), thus a DM is perfectly justified in saying the spell doesn't work if cast on a demiplane. And if anyone wants to whine about that being too nitpicky, it's A) Rules as written, and B) circumvents an obvious abuse of rules that the writers clearly didn't intend. That's just one example. Gate? 1000xp a pop. How many times do you use it until the rest of the party is Epic and you're not?

[jseah]

@jseah
I am sure you can get a bunch of these in Phallic-objects-r-us in Sigil :smallbiggrin:
Unfortunately, there is no crafting information on that Obelisk.
It's even listed as a magical location... not something you make.

Sorry, no buying it.
FYI, it's also at least 30ft tall. Solid stone... I wonder how many tons that is.


^About theoretical vs practical optimization:
True, the wizard can't go bat**** insane about optimization.
If you would like an example of the builds given, there are two/three on the BG forum link.
Only one uses Genesis + AP. That was given as the TO wizard.

EDIT: The non-TO wizards are certainly killable.
IIRC, two successful builds were a Nar Demonbinder and an intimi-rage barbarian

[Awnetu]

how does the dirty trick work? hindsight doesn't let you cast that spell in conjunction with the spell.

[Radar]

how does the dirty trick work? hindsight doesn't let you cast that spell in conjunction with the spell.
It lets you cast a variety of detection spells in conjunction with the Hindsight (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030103a) itself. The dirty trick about the whole thing is to metamagic Detect Magic into a damaging spell (Snowcasting + Flashfrost) and top it with Fell Drain just to be sure. Another way is a Dweomerkeeper using his Supernatural Spell to cast Teleport through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b). It all ends in a time war anyway.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

Well, since there's no way to get the first attack. The best way I know of to kill a T1 adventurer is anti-magic field. Cast it on your 3'' tall shimmerling familiar with share spells, have it fly into their space while you beat the crap out of them however you want.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Most Core stuff doesn't need to be banned. A lot of the abuse comes from vague wording that the DM can interpret as they see fit - e.g. all the hoopla about the Genesis spell. And as for the trick about using Genesis+Astral Projection, the A.P. spell specifically says the body of the caster has to be left on the Material Plane (look it up if you don't believe me), thus a DM is perfectly justified in saying the spell doesn't work if cast on a demiplane. And if anyone wants to whine about that being too nitpicky, it's A) Rules as written, and B) circumvents an obvious abuse of rules that the writers clearly didn't intend. That's just one example. Gate? 1000xp a pop. How many times do you use it until the rest of the party is Epic and you're not?

What about time stop, the polymorph line, mind blank, and in some cases summon monster X (not sure if this last one needs splat help to become so or not) is not broken, just to name a few? Metamagic feats (core ones such as quicken and extend, mind you) further mess up game balance. The tier one trio is also expected to be running around with their paladin and monk buddies, which is also stupid.

As for the losing exp to gate issue, consider that lower level character gain exp faster. Ever hear that exp is a river? Sadly, I don't have a more concrete example (can anyone back me up?). Keep in mind you will have the same WBL as everybody else, and you will be at absolute most two levels behind everyone, though this will likely be due to item crafting more than multiple castings of gate. And you're still way more powerful than your fighter buddy.

Back on topic:

Well, since there's no way to get the first attack. The best way I know of to kill a T1 adventurer is anti-magic field. Cast it on your 3'' tall shimmerling familiar with share spells, have it fly into their space while you beat the crap out of them however you want.

Antimagic field has been addressed pretty thoroughly earlier in the thread. Look for stuff talking about adamantine or tinfoil hats.

[137beth]

Um, you think the SRD is "arbitrary" and "poorly defined"?



Most Core stuff doesn't need to be banned. A lot of the abuse comes from vague wording that the DM can interpret as they see fit - e.g. all the hoopla about the Genesis spell. And as for the trick about using Genesis+Astral Projection, the A.P. spell specifically says the body of the caster has to be left on the Material Plane (look it up if you don't believe me), thus a DM is perfectly justified in saying the spell doesn't work if cast on a demiplane. And if anyone wants to whine about that being too nitpicky, it's A) Rules as written, and B) circumvents an obvious abuse of rules that the writers clearly didn't intend. That's just one example. Gate? 1000xp a pop. How many times do you use it until the rest of the party is Epic and you're not?

Um, almost every effective non-wizard build in this thread has also used non-core. The fighter can do almost nothing with just core, since he runs out of good feats so fast. The wizard is probably the class that can do the MOST with core, so I'm having trouble seeing why limiting the challenge to core hurts the wizard.
And saying that the wizard is limited to core but other classes aren't qualifies as "arbitrary and poorly defined standards".

[dsmiles]

@OP: Has, "Kill him in his sleep" been mentioned?

[Sewercop]

@OP: Has, "Kill him in his sleep" been mentioned?

You got it. You found a way to kill him. We just do it when he sleeps.
Do you think he sleeps?

[dsmiles]

You got it. You found a way to kill him. We just do it when he sleeps.
Do you think he sleeps?

Unless he's undead/outsider, probably. Even with a ring of sustenance, you have to sleep sometime.

[Awnetu]

Was covered, he does sleep, in another plane, in his Magnificent Mansion. alone. With contingencies, alarms, construct allies. :)

Problem I have with it, is Hindsight doesnt target a person, would that mean that it suddenly smacks everything in that location for 2 damage or whatever? Nevermind, flash frost does.

That and you need 365 CL/ Per year the target has lived to hit only where the baby is. Otherwise you now have an entire centuries worth of wights eating people.

[Myth]

Hehe i love you guys .This has been a very entertaining read, glad i raised the subject.

To those whining that the caster can't run around with 24hr duration foresight:

Incantatrix. She can persist it for free. Yes it's FR and situational, but still it's quite possible.

To all the geniuses coup-de-gracing the Wizard in his sleep... Read the whole thread before posting, it might help a little.

[Esser-Z]

War Hulking Hurler. Throw his personal plane at him.

[Emmerask]

Hehe i love you guys .This has been a very entertaining read, glad i raised the subject.

To those whining that the caster can't run around with 24hr duration foresight:

Incantatrix. She can persist it for free. Yes it's FR and situational, but still it's quite possible.

To all the geniuses coup-de-gracing the Wizard in his sleep... Read the whole thread before posting, it might help a little.

The problem is that without specifics (ie a specific build of an avg lvl15 wizard) this wizard has become a defensive wonder who plans for very single eventuality he has become THE wizard, A wizard on the other hand is pretty easy to kill.

[Ravens_cry]

An assassin. Not an Assassin, but an assassin. Or a ninja, but not a Ninja.

[BeholderSlayer]

XP costs for gate are negligible. Thought Bottle. Burn XP all day long, reset your XP with thought bottle. Rinse. Repeat.

[jseah]

The problem is that without specifics (ie a specific build of an avg lvl15 wizard) this wizard has become a defensive wonder who plans for very single eventuality he has become THE wizard, A wizard on the other hand is pretty easy to kill.
Does no one read links? The BG forum thread has a "generic" level 20 optimized wizard.

It's an elven generalist wizard 20 too, so don't say it's a specific wizard. The strategies used in that thread are ones that almost any wizard can use (save those that ban the specific school)

[Myth]

OK then let's provide a build. 32 point buy, max hp per level (this benefits those who take d12 classes as CON is less of an impact then). All sources apply. 2 flaws.

I'd go for Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3 for CLVL 20

The Incantatrix can actually out defense a Iot7V where it matters - persisting Shapechange/Foresight for example. I'll leave the 21 Crafted Contingencies + the banned schools up to the better players here.

If you want to go Epic consider Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incatatrix 10/ Archmage 2 / Iot7V 10 / Dweomerkeeper 10 < this is pretty much snapping the Multiverse in two, but feel free to take a stab at it. ClVL is 37 Even without Epic Spellcasting he can pretty much rapestomp 10 lvl 37 non-casters. And i"m willing to prove it although I'd be loathe to write a lvl 37 character sheet.

[Emmerask]

Does no one read links? The BG forum thread has a "generic" level 20 optimized wizard.

It's an elven generalist wizard 20 too, so don't say it's a specific wizard. The strategies used in that thread are ones that almost any wizard can use (save those that ban the specific school)

Oh I did but it is
a) a lvl 20 wizard (while the op said ecl15+)
b) optimized

which makes it more then a tier 1 wizard it makes up for a specific subgroup of tier 1 wizards but clearly not all of them :smallwink:

[ArcanistSupreme]

The problem is that without specifics (ie a specific build of an avg lvl15 wizard) this wizard has become a defensive wonder who plans for very single eventuality he has become THE wizard, A wizard on the other hand is pretty easy to kill.

Perhaps we should come up with a build to work with and get rid of the ambiguity? With spell list, items, contingencies, and other preparations. Assume standard WBL. Should we do a point buy or just use elite array?

It's already unfair for the others, let's see how difficult we can make it while still giving them a chance.

EDIT: Swordsage'd hard. We should probably agree on a level. 20 or 15?

[Myth]

Oh I did but it is
a) a lvl 20 wizard (while the op said ecl15+)
b) optimizedECL 15+ does include a level 20. I did want to give a stabe at Clerics and Druids but it appears that this forum wants the greatest challenge and thus chose to go right fort the goddamn Batman. :smallbiggrin:

Optimized yes, well not broken wish abuse optimized, or 250 CL optimized, just sort of "normal optimized" - Celerity, Timestop, Shapechange, Abrupt Jaunt that sort of stuff.

[jseah]

Oh I did but it is
a) a lvl 20 wizard (while the op said ecl15+)
b) optimized

which makes it more then a tier 1 wizard it makes up for a specific subgroup of tier 1 wizards but clearly not all of them :smallwink:
Deleveling a straight wizard 20 is easy.

As for optimized, that thread made little use of build specific stuff. IIRC, only a few feats and a Greater Rod of Extend.

At least 80% of the "build" was in clever usage of spells. +lots and lots of prior preparation.
IIRC, one of them dug out a chamber in a mountain without an entrance, then private sanctum to block detection. Put his clone, simulacrum and backup spellbook in it.

Furthermore, the higher edges of cheese were nibbled away. Craft Contingent Spell wasn't used on both sides, and no specific stuff like CL scaling or COP algorithmic divination.

[Gametime]

Um, you think the SRD is "arbitrary" and "poorly defined"?

I wasn't responding to your comment about the SRD, but to your comment about "common ground." If the criteria for building a wizard is that we find "common ground" with everyone who plays D&D, well, we're going to have a rough time of it. The SRD isn't universal. Lots of people play with only the core books, meaning no XPH, no ELH, etc. Lots more people consider the PH2 core.

Then there's the fact that you yourself have brought up - DMs can ban and tweak whatever they want. How exactly does limiting it to core (or the SRD, or whatever) find us common ground when you proposed banning or tweaking all the broken core stuff already?

What you're proposing isn't a "core only" discussion, it's a discussion utilizing only material that you consider balanced. While that's laudable for an actual game, it's thoroughly useless for an internet discussion since we don't have anything approaching a comprehensive list of what you'd consider balanced.

[Sewercop]

Epic are not going to matter. You can go epic before level 20 anyway.
Besides that epic are just epic fail. The system itself cant handle it. So please leave epic out of it.

Tier 1 casters basicly snaps theyre fingers and the system does what they want it to do.If you would like to break the game as a tier 1, all you need to do this is to read the rules.

But most people dont actually bother to check links or what people tell them.
Take this thread as an example, links are presented, no one cares. They still gonna say super uber ninja can crosbow kill it. Even if proven wrong.

This is just like talking to most of the people I game with. They know so little of mechanics that the cleric rerolled as fighter to be able to fight. The 19 lvl melee tank could not fly,see invisble,etc all the things needed to matter. They found a mystic theurge broken straight up. And so on...

[Emmerask]

Epic are not going to matter. You can go epic before level 20 anyway.
Besides that epic are just epic fail. The system itself cant handle it. So please leave epic out of it.

Tier 1 casters basicly snaps theyre fingers and the system does what they want it to do.If you would like to break the game as a tier 1, all you need to do this is to read the rules.

But most people dont actually bother to check links or what people tell them.
Take this thread as an example, links are presented, no one cares. They still gonna say super uber ninja can crosbow kill it. Even if proven wrong.

This is just like talking to most of the people I game with. They know so little of mechanics that the cleric rerolled as fighter to be able to fight. The 19 lvl melee tank could not fly,see invisble,etc all the things needed to matter. They found a mystic theurge broken straight up. And so on...

Ah but here is the core of the misunderstanding, the people who try to kill a tier 1 caster don´t have to look at any links provided.
If this particular wizard has the build/abilities/spells/items provided by the link we just ignore this one and take on the other wizard/t1 caster that does not have these.
Remember the challenge the op proposed was about killing A tier 1 Caster not about killing a specific one :smallwink:

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that all t1s are build that way :smallwink:

[Radar]

Ah but here is the core of the misunderstanding, the people who try to kill a tier 1 caster don´t have to look at any links provided.
If this particular wizard has the build/abilities/spells/items provided by the link we just ignore this one and take on the other wizard/t1 caster that does not have these.
Remember the challenge the op proposed was about killing A tier 1 Caster not about killing a specific one :smallwink:

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that they all are build that way :smallwink:
That's just arguing semantics. In that case, I could say, that a 1 lvl Commoner can overpower a 20 lvl wizard, since there can exist a sufficiently gimped and suicidal wizard to make it happen. That sort of an argument is pointless.

[jseah]

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that they all are build that way :smallwink:
XD
Of course.

In which case, we need more information about "A tier 1 caster", what you would consider to be standard for a tier 1 caster.

The reason why this is still going on is because alot of the tricks are based on spells and spell selection. Which practically any wizard can get.

[Emmerask]

That's just arguing semantics. In that case, I could say, that a 1 lvl Commoner can overpower a 20 lvl wizard, since there can exist a sufficiently gimped and suicidal wizard to make it happen. That sort of an argument is pointless.

Ah, but the other extreme is pointless too (attacker has no chance whatsoever) :smallwink:

So whats left is the middle ground which might make sense to discuss though someone has to design a decent avg t1 caster

Though what I consider too much others might consider a minimum amount of protection, for example my casters would never run around with a tinfoil/adamtine foil hat ^^

[Sewercop]

Ah but here is the core of the misunderstanding, the people who try to kill a tier 1 caster don´t have to look at any links provided.
If this particular wizard has the build/abilities/spells/items provided by the link we just ignore this one and take on the other wizard/t1 caster that does not have these.
Remember the challenge the op proposed was about killing A tier 1 Caster not about killing a specific one :smallwink:

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that all t1s are build that way :smallwink:

Remember this?


Also, please assume the casters have adequate defenses set up, so "ambush them with arrows" doesn't quite work out at CLVL 15+

From the op in the first post. Yeah,adequate defenses means that I am a turtled up crazy paranoid wizard thinghy. Adequate for me means that most other spellcasters cant reach\touch\harm me. And that will by default exclude any stupid arrow shot at me.

Tier 1 can by definition break the game. So the thing you look for are a cleric,druid,wiz,psion thinghy that has no spells due to low stats... That one I bet you would fight against.

[Emmerask]

Still adequate is variable for me it certainly means that the caster will be protected against most forms of mundane damage protected against arrows, protected against none magical weapons, of course mind blank is pretty reasonable too etc but does adequate include wearing a tinfoil hat or communing with gods every day to know what will happen? I think that is stretching it a bit ^^

[jseah]

<...> but does adequate include wearing a tinfoil hat or communing with gods every day to know what will happen? I think that is stretching it a bit ^^
I'm curious now. May I know why?

It seems quite reasonable to me once the idea is thought of.

[Sewercop]

Still adequate is variable for me it certainly means that the caster will be protected against most forms of mundane damage protected against arrows, protected against none magical weapons but does adequate include wearing a tinfoil hat or communing with gods every day to know what will happen? I think that is stretching it a bit ^^

Well, what do you consider normal then? Probably the same as most other people do. The thing is, threads like this are like a shiny lure for people that like a challenge. Your problem? They took the side of the casters :) Cry me a river, the caster will always win unless you bring in casters or gods or dm fiat.

Yes, the little ademantium hat is normal, talking with the gods are normal, your own plane? thats just cool, got to have one!Being able to shapechange? Its cool to. Never surprised?self preservation.Resurection save games? Of,course have you any idea how much time i have used on this character?

With a sane gm? I would not even play tier 1. Why? Do you know what they can do?
Instead of downplaying tier 1`s i play something else. And I believe that most people that have knowledge about the game do the same. I have no proof of this at all, but I guess most of them like to play a little. Not just break things.

I like to theorize because it tells me whats wrong and what not to abuse, or what to leave out when I gm.
And I have fun doing this.
Instead of playing dumb,dumber I play something else.

[Radar]

Ah, but the other extreme is pointless too (attacker has no chance whatsoever) :smallwink:

So whats left is the middle ground which might make sense to discuss though someone has to design a decent avg t1 caster

Though what I consider too much others might consider a minimum amount of protection, for example my casters would never run around with a tinfoil/adamtine foil hat ^^
Umm... we didn't even go into extreme CO (let alone TO). Besides, the linked topic from Brilliant Gamologists contains three wizard builds with varying levels of preparation and cheese, so there you have it.
And yes, it is impossible to objectively define reasonable ammount of preparation. Still, for any effort on the wizard side, potential assassins have to put a lot more (and often specialise) to have a chance. Thus, if both sides would stay at the same level of optimisation (if it could be properly measured), the wizard still has the upper hand. It is just that much easier with all those spells.

[Gametime]

These discussions always seem to have at least one person insisting "Wizards aren't broken if you don't let them do broken things!"

It's pretty obviously true, but it's also a bit like saying "Bears aren't dangerous if they don't have teeth or claws or big heavy bodies!"

[Doug Lampert]

These discussions always seem to have at least one person insisting "Wizards aren't broken if you don't let them do broken things!"

It's pretty obviously true, but it's also a bit like saying "Bears aren't dangerous if they don't have teeth or claws or big heavy bodies!"

While I agree that in theory D&D 3.x is hopelessly broken, it's not that bad in actual practice. The thing is that as far as I can tell in most ACTUAL campaigns the wizard DOESN'T do broken things. Wizards blast, clerics heal, everyone's happy except the cleric's player who keeps insisting that his class is underpowered!

People not only actually BELIEVE that a 1000 XP cost at level 17 for gate is relevant but they also think the 45 XP cost for a fifth level utility spell on a scroll is a real cost!

Hint: Defeating a CR 17 foe at level 17 is worth 5,100 XP (1,275 XP each for a party of four) and if you're Gate Cheezing you're probably fighting higher CR foes, in fact, you are perfectly capable of soloing higher CR foes and don't actually need to share the 10,200 XP you get from a CR 19 kill. (Uh No! I wasted 10% of the XP on a gate, what shall I wish for today?)

But let's assume you are so inept or so paranoid that you fight equal CR foes and drag the rest of the party along to siphon off XP and STILL gate cheeze every encounter. You're still advancing, and in the event that you fall behind a level then the rest of the party then they only get 1,350 XP per encounter while you net 800 XP per encounter (after the gate) for standard patrol encounters. By the time they're level 19 they get 1,525 XP and even after the gate you net 1,550 XP after the gate and are catching up.

And you're with them on gear, which by that level is a substantial fraction of the Wizard's power and virtually all of the fighter's power. But lots of people still have the reaction of "Ohh! XP cost bad! Must avoid."

Sleeping in an extradimensional space with an alarm spell on the entrance is a level 1 slot + a level 2 slot. This isn't resource intensive massive effort. Yet half a dozen or more people ON THIS THREAD have suggested garking a high level wizard while he sleeps!

People just don't play that way. They don't play defense at ALL, most of the time when the fight foes with all sorts of mobility and scrying powers the foe stands, fights, and dies rather than teleporting away and using a SBT on them.

Now. This PARTICULAR thread refers explicitly to Tier 1 classes, and the Tier structure is based around a particular level of optimization, well short of PunPun but well up from filling your nineth level slots with Meteor Swarm, Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee, Dominate Monster, and Iron Body or playing a heal-bot cleric who's pumped charisma so his Turn Undead will still be useless.

[BeholderSlayer]

While I agree that in theory D&D 3.x is hopelessly broken, it's not that bad in actual practice. The thing is that as far as I can tell in most ACTUAL campaigns the wizard DOESN'T do broken things. Wizards blast, clerics heal, everyone's happy except the cleric's player who keeps insisting that his class is underpowered!

I <3 your last sentence in this paragraph. Epic win.

Most campaigns do have a blaster wizard, which just goes to show that most people don't play the game past level 10. Once you get into the double-digits, you better have an insanely damage optimized spellcaster to do remotely enough damage to more than tickle your enemies and make them laugh at you.

At high levels, for me at least, this means "no save just suck" spells, divide and conquer, party boosting, and summoning. If you are wasting 8th level spell slots doing things like casting Polar Ray you are wasting actions unless you have a supremely optimized cold caster. Even then, you could have spent your time having a less singular focus and performed even better.

[Sewercop]

People just don't play that way. They don't play defense at ALL, most of the time when the fight foes with all sorts of mobility and scrying powers the foe stands, fights, and dies rather than teleporting away and using a SBT on them.


In my experience, playing with some defense are the difference of having a single character a campaign or to reroll x times.

I do not how many times I have seen GM`s make a dragon fight on the ground without using spells. Or a roc that lands and fight instead of snatching a character\horse\whatever and fly away.Or other stupid things that make no sense what so ever...

How many of you guys playing melee guys have thought about what if the gm made the dragon fly? And have it tossing spells at the same time as it should have been doing....
Guess not.

Yeah, Clerics... As I said, the one we had rerolled into a fighter :( She wanted to fight. Makes me wanna cry.

[BeholderSlayer]

In my experience, playing with some defense are the difference of having a single character a campaign or to reroll x times.

I do not how many times I have seen GM`s make a dragon fight on the ground without using spells. Or a roc that lands and fight instead of snatching a character\horse\whatever and fly away.Or other stupid things that make no sense what so ever...

How many of you guys playing melee guys have thought about what if the gm made the dragon fly? And have it tossing spells at the same time as it should have been doing....
Guess not.

Yeah, Clerics... As I said, the one we had rerolled into a fighter :( She wanted to fight. Makes me wanna cry.

A lot of DM's run games that way, way too many for my tastes. If players are using weak tactics and a DM actually plays enemies intelligently, the players are likely to repeatedly die to enemies several levels below them. An intelligently played level 5 wizard can easily TPK a full party of level 10 characters poorly played.

[Myth]

Ah that. I've warned my players that they can't expect the Lich to target a Half Orc with a stick instead of the Incantatrix on the right, going nova on him.

In the preparation for an Epic game where the players have to assassinate Cyric and stop 4E from happening, one player got mad and left at character creation, because he wanted to play a very, VERY idiotic PrC from some third party fail book on fail dwarves. He uses full plate and wields two shields. I asked him how will he then make the hordes of demons attack him instead of the real threats (the casters), or how will he cope with magic. He cried imbalance and never showed up again (this is PBP).

[Whammydill]

A high level chicken-infested commoner with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chicken and quickdraw draws out an infinite number of chickens in one round to smother and crush the hapless wizard who never contigiencied for such a fowl occasion.

All the while the commoner with his trusty amulet of chicken immunity, which makes him immune to all things chicken related laughs at his misfortune.

Even if he manages to get out of it he has an obscene amount of chickens to deal with! What use is it to live if the prime plane is now the Plane of Fowl. I mean...poop everywhere, feathers fowling (!) all your concentration checks....man this place is for the birds. /wrist


*no this isn't serious, but I found it amusing*

[BeholderSlayer]

In the preparation for an Epic game where the players have to assassinate Cyric and stop 4E from happening,

Oh my

http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=thelaughingmarcus.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthelaughingmarcus.files.wordpress .com%2F2009%2F08%2Fso-much-win.jpg&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fthelaughingmarcus.wordpress.com% 2F2009%2F08%2F21%2Flucky-number-7%2Fso-much-win%2F

[Myth]

Lvl 1 Rogue, Level 29 Centaur Monk.
Stack WIS, DEX, and CON for items and stat set-up.
Choose +2 Will Save, Fort, and Ref feats.
Focus on raising UMD to maximum.
Purchase a couple wish scrolls (you're 30th level so you'll be starting with a lot more gp.)
Take deflect missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle infinite times per day back at the caster.
Imp Init.
Endurance.
Feat for cannot fail Fort saves on a 1.
Feat to roll all Will saves as Fort saves.
Staff of Mindblank.
Wand of Dimensional Anchor.
Glove of Storing + Wand of Nerveskitter.
Scroll of Contigency level 18.
Scroll of Anti-Magic Shell.
Contigency when a Mage's Disjunction would effect you - Anti-Magic Shell.
Staff of Hunting: Discern Location, Greater Scry, Greater Teleport.
This is a generic build with generic items, nothing too optimized but it will give just about any caster a run for their money.

Saving throw wise you should be untouchable to the wizard.
He can use orb, but it will instantly be deflected and returned back onto him. He cannot land rays or Orbs.

This has a chance of killing a wizard. Even an optimized one.

If all else fails, shapechange into a Lich. Wear item which grants immunity to vacuum. Greater Teleport into space. Wish wizard to you.

Also you can use Discern Location to find the wizard (if he does not have mindblank up) and Wish for an accurate and well painted picture of that place. Then you can greater teleport there.

Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3

Orange Ioun Stone, Rod of Greater Extend x 2, 9th level Pearls of Power X 2, other things i haven't thought of.

Persisted Foresight via Incantatrix. Persisted Shapechange as well.

Centaur boy appears. Greater Celerity. Cast Extended Time Stop via rod. Cast Gate and call a CR42 creature which is good at grappling. I'm being generous here, i can easily get a caster level greater then 21. Rinse and repeat. Enough big bad bastards can grapple him without trouble. Shapechange in to an illithid and proceed to eat his brain.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3

Orange Ioun Stone, Rod of Greater Extend x 2, 9th level Pearls of Power X 2, other things i haven't thought of.

Persisted Foresight via Incantatrix. Persisted Shapechange as well.

Centaur boy appears. Greater Celerity. Cast Extended Time Stop via rod. Cast Gate and call a CR42 creature which is good at grappling. I'm being generous here, i can easily get a caster level greater then 21. Rinse and repeat. Enough big bad bastards can grapple him without trouble. Shapechange in to an illithid and proceed to eat his brain.

I think that this build might be sufficiently optimized to bump it up a tier or three. Can you do it while staying at tier one?

[BeholderSlayer]

Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3

Orange Ioun Stone, Rod of Greater Extend x 2, 9th level Pearls of Power X 2, other things i haven't thought of.

Persisted Foresight via Incantatrix. Persisted Shapechange as well.

Centaur boy appears. Greater Celerity. Cast Extended Time Stop via rod. Cast Gate and call a CR42 creature which is good at grappling. I'm being generous here, i can easily get a caster level greater then 21. Rinse and repeat. Enough big bad bastards can grapple him without trouble. Shapechange in to an illithid and proceed to eat his brain.
I'm surprised you even bothered to dig that up, as it would be solidly stomped with little effort by a decent spell caster. Ironically, it's using mimicked spellcasting to attempt to defeat a spellcaster, and even then loses before the fight starts.


I think that this build might be sufficiently optimized to bump it up a tier or three. Can you do it while staying at tier one?

technically that is a tier one

[Myth]

I think that this build might be sufficiently optimized to bump it up a tier or three. Can you do it while staying at tier one?


Sure, the only two major players in this build that a regular vanlla Wizard does not have are Abrupt Jaunt (which will let him say "no" to the centaur's charge or grapple or whatever) and the persisted Foresight (Shapechange needs not be persisted, but i figured why not, Incantatrix gets 7+Int uses per day of this anyway(

Basically so long as we can agree that Foresight will be active (aforementioned errand running, preparedness, extend etc.), nothing changes. Gates can be re-cast via 9th level Pearls of Power. A CR30 enemy surely warrants the expendature of a few thousand XP. Casting Graymantle would be nice if he has gone for some sort of insane regeneration build.


I'm surprised you even bothered to dig that up, as it would be solidly stomped with little effort by a decent spell caster. Ironically, it's using mimicked spellcasting to attempt to defeat a spellcaster, and even then loses before the fight starts.

Hey I'm somewhat new to DnD and definitely to CharOp. I wanted to practice. I also did it for the lulz.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Sure, the only two major players in this build that a regular vanlla Wizard does not have are Abrupt Jaunt (which will let him say "no" to the centaur's charge or grapple or whatever) and the persisted Foresight (Shapechange needs not be persisted, but i figured why not, Incantatrix gets 7+Int uses per day of this anyway(

Basically so long as we can agree that Foresight will be active (aforementioned errand running, preparedness, extend etc.), nothing changes. Gates can be re-cast via 9th level Pearls of Power. A CR30 enemy surely warrants the expendature of a few thousand XP. Casting Graymantle would be nice if he has gone for some sort of insane regeneration build.

Just trying to forestall any potential disagreements about this being a fair build. Persisted 9th level spells will probably cause a fuss (even if the end result is the same), but as long as you're sure that it hasn't been bumped up to Tier 0 or -1, I guess it's okay.

[Lans]

I'll say this again when dealing with celerity get an extra standard action, and use it to ready an action to cast/activate a maximized force orb.

So belt of battle, npc, or levels of factotum.

[Gametime]

I'm not sure how extra actions help when the wizard is going first.

[137beth]

Remember this?


From the op in the first post. Yeah,adequate defenses means that I am a turtled up crazy paranoid wizard thinghy. Adequate for me means that most other spellcasters cant reach\touch\harm me. And that will by default exclude any stupid arrow shot at me.

Tier 1 can by definition break the game. So the thing you look for are a cleric,druid,wiz,psion thinghy that has no spells due to low stats... That one I bet you would fight against.

As noted many times earlier in the thread, a rogue could teleport in with a magic item and sneak attack, unless the wizard uses foresight. Which is a 9th level spell (or 8th level). At 20th level, he wouldn't be able to keep it up 24/7, except with rod of extension (which is quite cheap at 20th level). So that particular wizard COULD get 100% success rate against a rogue. But a wizard who can not cast foresight would not have a 100% chance of bypassing the rogue's sneak attack (and I mean sneaking up, not the ability), and would thus not have a 100% chance of surviving the rogue's attack. Even if you assume every wizard in the game that is high level knows foresight, what about clerics? A cleric without the knowledge domain, how do you expect a cleric to keep their guard up 24/7? If the rogue gets a surprise attack, there is a chance it will kill the cleric.
Even if the cleric DOES get the first strike, there is no absolute guarantee they will win, unless they make appropriate use of a lot of spells which don't allow a saving throw. Examples of this have been shown for the wizard, but not cleric.
As for druid, polymorphing lets them do just about anything using the unmodified polymorph rules, so a well-played druid is probably truly unbeatable by a tier-3 or lower.

But for a SORCERER, who is only tier 2, most effects the wizard makes can also be done by a sorcerer, including the effects that supposedly make the wizard unbeatable. Against a sorcerer there really isn't a fail-proof strategy for a cleric or wizard (though a druid might be able to pull it off).

NOTE: this assumes a cleric is not able to instantly kill you with a miracle. Because miracle requires a lot of judgment on the GMs part, I have not included it in my explanations. If the GM rules that miracle+xp cost is capable of instantly killing all rogues and sorcerers trying to attack it during the next 2000 years, then I don't think anything could beat that.

[ArcanistSupreme]

But a wizard who can not cast foresight would not have a 100% chance of bypassing the rogue's sneak attack (and I mean sneaking up, not the ability), and would thus not have a 100% chance of surviving the rogue's attack. Even if you assume every wizard in the game that is high level knows foresight, what about clerics? A cleric without the knowledge domain, how do you expect a cleric to keep their guard up 24/7? If the rogue gets a surprise attack, there is a chance it will kill the cleric.

Check out heavyfortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification). Rogues are considered tier 4 partially because it is so easy to avoid sneak attack damage.

[Tyndmyr]

A lot of DM's run games that way, way too many for my tastes. If players are using weak tactics and a DM actually plays enemies intelligently, the players are likely to repeatedly die to enemies several levels below them. An intelligently played level 5 wizard can easily TPK a full party of level 10 characters poorly played.

Yeah. Ive played under a lot of such DMs. They are often under the impression that adding attack bonus, AC, and a pile of hp is sufficient to make a monster a challenge.

Yeaaah, no. Once players have gotten a taste for optimizing(and it comes pretty naturally), they quickly learn the power of debuffs. It's quite easy to negate any arbitrarily high attack bonus, by simply removing their ability to either locate you or act, and that makes AC and hp, at worst, an issue of time. At least, until players figure out how to mostly ignore those too.

The "kill a tier 1" can be done, with one assumption. If you can see the tier 1's build, and specifically build an entire character to target whatever minor temporary weakness he has, yes, you could kill him. Realistically, in a game setting, you do not have the advantage of such perfect information, and the odds of happening to pick the ideal strategy by chance is rather slender. Sure, a prepared tier 1 caster COULD die to a powerful and very lucky opponent, but the odds are pretty firmly on their side.

[Ozymandias9]

The "kill a tier 1" can be done, with one assumption. If you can see the tier 1's build, and specifically build an entire character to target whatever minor temporary weakness he has, yes, you could kill him. Realistically, in a game setting, you do not have the advantage of such perfect information, and the odds of happening to pick the ideal strategy by chance is rather slender. Sure, a prepared tier 1 caster COULD die to a powerful and very lucky opponent, but the odds are pretty firmly on their side.

True, but because no actually played wizard is a Schrodinger's wizard (or usually even a perfectly played Batman), you don't need perfect information of perfect spec. You merely need to be built to get and take advantage of a sufficient amount of the information.

[Killer Angel]

Check out heavyfortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification).

To be fair, heavy fort. is a +5 enhancement. It's not exactly the cheapest thing to put on your armor.
Moderate fort. is way less costly and gives a solid 75%.

[Myth]

As noted many times earlier in the thread, a rogue could teleport in with a magic item and sneak attack, unless the wizard uses foresight. Which is a 9th level spell (or 8th level). At 20th level, he wouldn't be able to keep it up 24/7, except with rod of extension (which is quite cheap at 20th level). So that particular wizard COULD get 100% success rate against a rogue. But a wizard who can not cast foresight would not have a 100% chance of bypassing the rogue's sneak attack (and I mean sneaking up, not the ability), and would thus not have a 100% chance of surviving the rogue's attack.Anticipate Teleportation, Greater. Your Rogue teleports in the middle of several angry Solars with no Wizard in sight.

[Kyrthain]

The discussion keeps going about whether the challenge is a tier 1 caster or a specific tier 1 caster.

There have been a number of solutions posted that can, in fact, work against a non-optimized, or even simply non-theoretical wizard. But as of yet, ignoring teleport through time, no-one has found a way to deal with the specific, theoretical caster.

[Radar]

The discussion keeps going about whether the challenge is a tier 1 caster or a specific tier 1 caster.

There have been a number of solutions posted that can, in fact, work against a non-optimized, or even simply non-theoretical wizard. But as of yet, ignoring teleport through time, no-one has found a way to deal with the specific, theoretical caster.
It is also worth mentioning, that most solutions used on a non-optimised wizard rely on the wizard NOT using a sensible choice of spells and employ fairly optimised characters with very specific set of items.

[Dada]

It is also worth mentioning, that most solutions used on a non-optimised wizard rely on the wizard NOT using a sensible choice of spells and employ fairly optimised characters with very specific set of items.

The problem with killing a Tier 1 caster, is that they can always counter what you selected to do. The only possible approach is to find something that the caster might not be prepared for, and cross your fingers. The less likely the caster is to be prepared, the better the choice, but there is no guaranteed solutions, short of 'rocks fall'.

[Emmerask]

The only way I see to kill an optimized t1 char would be to gather as much knowledge about the caster as possible dc45+ to avoid any suspicion. After that get a Teleport through Time item or caster who casts it for you.
After that kill the caster or any of his ancestors and he will never be born (atleast in the new timeline you have created)

Of course people will tell me that he will have already thought of it and accordingly prepared but as of yet I think no one has mentioned it until now (well I haven´t followed the whole thread page by page so somebody may have?)
So I consider one t1 caster dead now anyway :smalltongue:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

[BeholderSlayer]

People keep harping on Foresight, and completely ignore Contact Other Plane. A wizard can contact greater deities no-fail as soon as they learn the spell, and can be perfectly prepared for anybody trying to attack them by level 15-20. You don't necessarily need Foresight up 24/7, in fact they may not need it at all (but may use it for good measure). They will know exactly when, where, and who will be threatening their existence, so all they need to do is set up the trap

Teleport through time could theoretically work, but brings up a bit of a "chicken or the egg" conundrum. If you teleport through time, does the wizard just never exist in the first place? Does the wizard exist, but disappears when he is killed/parents killed in the past? That one requires a lot of physics/event horizon theory that I don't think we want to get into in this thread.

It can also be argued that the mundane doing the time traveling is not really the "killer." By relying on another, arcane, invididual to perform the time travel it begs the question: "was a rogue/fighter/whatever responsible, or was the wizard that traveled him/her through time responsible?" I would argue the latter, and then it becomes a tier I ending the life of a tier I before they become tier I.

[Emmerask]

A sorcerer can cast the spell too, so that would fall into the lower tier killing t1 requirement :smallwink:

Or you could use an item to substitute for the wizard casting. You could argue the same there but then you must also argue that the swordsmith did the kill or that the caster is not responsible for the power but the one that created the spell etc.

[BeholderSlayer]

A sorcerer can cast the spell too, so that would fall into the lower tier killing t1 requirement :smallwink:

Or you could use an item to substitute for the wizard casting. You could argue the same there but then you must also argue that the swordsmith did the kill or that the caster is not responsible for the power but the one that created the spell etc.

True on both points.

The Teleport Through Time point also begs the question: is the goal fulfilled? Was it a tier I caster you killed? Or was it a baby/parent/whatever? The OP did reference level 15+ at the end, so does the kill count if the wizard in question is not yet level 15+?

And on the event horizon note, suppose the wizard does exist but ceases to exist when killed in the past. He will still learn of the threat to his well being through Contact Other Plane. He will ask questions until he determines he will be attacked in the past. Now that he knows about the threat, he can time travel as well to prevent it.

The above point is moot if it is decided that the wizard would not ever have existed in the first place. But then, did you kill a tier I? If he never existed, how could you have killed him?

Unless you start bringing in parallel time streams and other strange physics theory this is fairly impossible to determine.

[onthetown]

Pass your Will save to stay awake during his monologue and stab him in the middle of it.

[Radar]

True on both points.

The Teleport Through Time point also begs the question: is the goal fulfilled? Was it a tier I caster you killed? Or was it a baby/parent/whatever? The OP did reference level 15+ at the end, so does the kill count if the wizard in question is not yet level 15+?

And on the event horizon note, suppose the wizard does exist but ceases to exist when killed in the past. He will still learn of the threat to his well being through Contact Other Plane. He will ask questions until he determines he will be attacked in the past. Now that he knows about the threat, he can time travel as well to prevent it.

The above point is moot if it is decided that the wizard would not ever have existed in the first place. But then, did you kill a tier I? If he never existed, how could you have killed him?

Unless you start bringing in parallel time streams and other strange physics theory this is fairly impossible to determine.
That's the general reason, why time travel is not taken into account - D&D doesn't support paradox resolution and it's difficult to discuss such a subject even with our physics taken into account.

[ArcanistSupreme]

To be fair, heavy fort. is a +5 enhancement. It's not exactly the cheapest thing to put on your armor.
Moderate fort. is way less costly and gives a solid 75%.

Meh, there's plenty of gold to burn with level 20 WBL. Enchanting +1 bracers of armor with the ability (as per Arms and Equipment Guide) would only cost 49k. Why worry about that 25% when you can just ignore it completely?

[crizh]

A wizard can contact greater deities no-fail as soon as they learn the spell

I'm sure you have some sort of explanation for that statement for us dummies that are so stupid as to expect the rules to be the ones presented in the PHB.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm sure you have some sort of explanation for that statement for us dummies that are so stupid as to expect the rules to be the ones presented in the PHB.

Uh, take 10. Pretty simple.

[137beth]

Uh, contact other plane, even when asking a greater deity, only gives an 88% chance of getting the true answer:| I'm not sure where taking 10 plays into it, since it is a d% roll.

Even then, people are using foresight because it tells you exactly when you will be attacked. Contact other plane, even if you DO get the correct answer, will only give you one-word answers.

[JonestheSpy]

Uh, take 10. Pretty simple.

[Head slap]

So, you don't think concentrating on maintaining contact with a resentful outer planar entity that could at any time knock you down to 8 INT for more than a month to be at all distracting, let alone threatening, hmm?

Have you ever tried that line of logic on an actual DM, perchance?

[BeholderSlayer]

[Head slap]

So, you don't think concentrating on maintaining contact with a resentful outer planar entity that could at any time knock you down to 8 INT for more than a month to be at all distracting, let alone threatening, hmm?

Have you ever tried that line of logic on an actual DM, perchance?

So, you're saying to can't take 10 on traps as a rogue, either? That's exactly what you're saying.

The idea that the action you are taking 10 on can be a distraction or the threat that disallows taking 10 is silly. In that case, kiss taking 10 on disable rolls good-bye because you are distracted by disabling the trap and it might explode, so it's a threat.

You may take 10, that's RAW, and DM rulings have no place in this discussion.

[JonestheSpy]

So, you're saying to can't take 10 on traps as a rogue, either? That's exactly what you're saying.

The idea that the action you are taking 10 on can be a distraction or the threat that disallows taking 10 is silly. In that case, kiss taking 10 on disable rolls good-bye because you are distracted by disabling the trap and it might explode, so it's a threat.

You may take 10, that's RAW, and DM rulings have no place in this discussion.

So, you're saying you've never tried this line of logic with an actual DM, gotcha.

And yeah, I have no problem saying you can't take 10 disarming traps. Opening locks, sure; traps where you might die if you mess up? Nope.

And do you really think the game designers intended that any caster with a +6 or higher bonus on the relevant ability check NEVER had to worry about negative effects from casting this spell? Oh, wait, let me guess - you don't care, because you've interpreted the spell in a way that suits your powergamer viewpoint, so nothing else matters.

[olentu]

So, you're saying you've never tried this line of logic with an actual DM, gotcha.

And yeah, I have no problem saying you can't take 10 disarming traps. Opening locks, sure; traps where you might die if you mess up? Nope.

And do you really think the game designers intended that any caster with a +6 or higher bonus on the relevant ability check NEVER had to worry about negative effects from casting this spell? Oh, wait, let me guess - you don't care, because you've interpreted the spell in a way that suits your powergamer viewpoint, so nothing else matters.

Yeah I have been able to take ten just fine on things that have a harmful penalty for failure.

I mean the designers probably meant for lots of stuff but it turned out differently.

[Killer Angel]

Meh, there's plenty of gold to burn with level 20 WBL. Enchanting +1 bracers of armor with the ability (as per Arms and Equipment Guide) would only cost 49k. Why worry about that 25% when you can just ignore it completely?

Is your point that is easy to avoid SA because at lev. 20 WBL you can easily afford such enchantment?
At lev. 20, I agree. Try to do it at lower levels.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Is your point that is easy to avoid SA because at lev. 20 WBL you can easily afford such enchantment?
At lev. 20, I agree. Try to do it at lower levels.

I thought we were discussing a level 20 caster. :smallconfused:

If not, then yes, medium fortification would be better.

[Myth]

Or you know, spells like ironguard. Suddenly, your rogue has to find a stick to hit you with.

[Killer Angel]

I thought we were discussing a level 20 caster. :smallconfused:


Yes, we were.
I was merely debating your point:


Check out heavyfortification (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification). Rogues are considered tier 4 partially because it is so easy to avoid sneak attack damage.

Which seemed a more general consideration, not related to the level.
Probably it was a case of internet misunderstanding. :smallsmile:

[137beth]

Yeah I have been able to take ten just fine on things that have a harmful penalty for failure.

I mean the designers probably meant for lots of stuff but it turned out differently.

It still doesn't matter--even if you can maintain concentration without fail, there is still only an 88% chance that the being will give you the correct answer. That is not "without fail".

[ArcanistSupreme]

Which seemed a more general consideration, not related to the level.
Probably it was a case of internet misunderstanding. :smallsmile:

Ah. Yeah, I should have been more specific. Still, even a 25-75% chance of completely shutting down your class features that is relatively accessible in addition to all of the other stuff that is just plain immune doesn't help things.

[ZeroNumerous]

So, you don't think concentrating on maintaining contact with a resentful outer planar entity that could at any time knock you down to 8 INT for more than a month to be at all distracting, let alone threatening, hmm?

To be honest? No, no I don't.

Because if you're contacting any deity that isn't Boccob, the god of knowing things, to know something then you're doing it wrong. And it would be ridiculously ludicrously out of character for Boccob to refuse to pass on any kind of knowledge, or to care enough to backhand you for contacting him.

[Sewercop]

Why even talk about sneak attack when the rogue have no means of reaching the caster? Who cares.
When you have abillities and spells better than entire classes you just do not care about them. You can probably make items better than an 20 lvl rogue.
Try to take down teoretical wizards? Seriously...

What about a kobold ur-priest? Druid planar shepard?Gnome shadow mage?initiate of mystra?Iotsfv? The list of broken s¤%t are to too long...

Edit: And yeah, contact other plane are that Broken\Good. If people actually botherd to read links presented they would get a grasp of how it works.

[BeholderSlayer]

So, you're saying you've never tried this line of logic with an actual DM, gotcha.

And yeah, I have no problem saying you can't take 10 disarming traps. Opening locks, sure; traps where you might die if you mess up? Nope.

And do you really think the game designers intended that any caster with a +6 or higher bonus on the relevant ability check NEVER had to worry about negative effects from casting this spell? Oh, wait, let me guess - you don't care, because you've interpreted the spell in a way that suits your powergamer viewpoint, so nothing else matters.

The conditions fit the requirements for taking 10. Thus, you may take 10. Saying a rogue can't take 10 on a trap that may kill him is disingenuous. The activity may be stressful, but it is in no way distracting or threatening. It makes no sense whatsoever to claim that the activity on which you are taking 10 can be the distraction or threat that disqualifies you from taking 10. It's the same as saying "no, you can't take 10 on a spot check because if you don't pass, you might get attacked."

Yes, that's exactly what I think the designers intended, or the wouldn't have made it an INT check. Sorcerers attempting to use the spell still must likely make a successful roll. Wizards, on the other hand, do not. The spell was designed to be used, not ignored completely (which you seem to insist).

This is not interpretation, this is the exact RAW. I happen to BE an actual DM, and this is how I encourage players to use the spell if they have the actual brains to look at it and realize how useful it is. It doesn't break the game wide open because NPC spellcasters have ways to get around it.

Even the 88% chance is of no matter, because a theoretical wizard would be able to ask so many questions that they can always ask about the accuracy of any question.

[Gametime]

So, you're saying you've never tried this line of logic with an actual DM, gotcha.

Out of curiosity, if someone said "Yes, I've used the spell this way and my DM had no problem with it," would you consider that acceptable proof for this being a valid interpretation of the spell? Or would you insist that that's a silly ruling, even if some DMs do allow it?

I'm just trying to get a feel for whether it's any DMs allowing it, or most DMs allowing it, or your DMs allowing it that is the basis of your criteria for "reasonable interpretations," since we clearly can't find common ground in what the spells actually say.


And do you really think the game designers intended that any caster with a +6 or higher bonus on the relevant ability check NEVER had to worry about negative effects from casting this spell? Oh, wait, let me guess - you don't care, because you've interpreted the spell in a way that suits your powergamer viewpoint, so nothing else matters.

I don't think the designers intended to make druids as incredibly versatile as they are, or to make ten-foot ladders far more cost-effective than ten-foot poles. That doesn't change the fact that they are.

Also, it seems unnecessarily confrontational to dismiss someone's objections out of hand because obviously they wouldn't disagree with you unless they were a powergamer twisting and manipulating the rules for their own selfish powergaming ends.

[crizh]

While I disagree with almost everything these guys have said and have given up arguing with them on several topics because they are just ignoring pertinent counter-points and focusing on elements they think they can attempt to refute, which is just the worst form of rhetoric, I can't disagree with them about taking ten on this INT check.

If failure is a risk you cannot take twenty but you have to be actively being distracted to not be able to take ten.

You can explicitly take ten on a climb check where failure means certain death right up until someone starts taking pot shots at you.

----

Can you ask the same question twice with Contact Other Plane?

Hell no.

That whole table is a waste of ink otherwise.

Your chances of getting an accurate answer to a particular question are those given in the table regardless of how many times you ask it or how you re-parse it.


Will I be attacked tomorrow?

and


Was that last answer true?

Are the same question because they attempt to elicit the same piece of information.

A high level caster just has to suck it up and live with 12% uncertainty in his life.

----

Even then, abusing CoP is just another pattern that can be exploited.

If you can use Metafaculty or Hypercognition to know when the mage is casting CoP you drop an attack on his ass just as he makes the INT check.

That's a good 10-15% chance of losing all Arcane casting for a month. You'd probably only have to do that half a dozen times before you got lucky.

[JonestheSpy]

Yes, that's exactly what I think the designers intended, or the wouldn't have made it an INT check. Sorcerers attempting to use the spell still must likely make a successful roll. Wizards, on the other hand, do not. The spell was designed to be used, not ignored completely (which you seem to insist).


Okay, this is obviously a useless conversation, but I do feel compelled to point out one thing. Believing that spell was designed to involve risk is not the same as saying it should be ignored. I don't think the spell was designed with the idea that wizards of a certain level could just cast it every morning before breakfast to get the gods to help them organize their day. But you obviously do, so you have fun with that.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Will I be attacked tomorrow?
and
Was that last answer true?

Are the same question because they attempt to elicit the same piece of information.

While agree that should probably be some degree of uncertainty, I disagree with this statement. Although they are essentially asking for the same information, semantically they are most certainly not. And as half of RAW is based on semantics, I'm going to say that would be a legal follow up.

[137beth]

While agree that should probably be some degree of uncertainty, I disagree with this statement. Although they are essentially asking for the same information, semantically they are most certainly not. And as half of RAW is based on semantics, I'm going to say that would be a legal follow up.

Even you can ask the same question twice, that still means there is a (12^2)/10000=1.44% chance of both answers being wrong. Unless you have somehow managed to change the laws of math so that 98.56=100, then asking the same question twice still doesn't guarantee you will get the correct answer:|
That's not even considering the fact that if you get one answer "yes", and one "no", you still don't know which one is true, so you in fact have less than a 98.56% chance of "knowing" the answer.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Even you can ask the same question twice, that still means there is a (12^2)/10000=1.44% chance of both answers being wrong. Unless you have somehow managed to change the laws of math so that 98.56=100, then asking the same question twice still doesn't guarantee you will get the correct answer:|
That's not even considering the fact that if you get one answer "yes", and one "no", you still don't know which one is true, so you in fact have less than a 98.56% chance of "knowing" the answer.

Which I would say is further support in favor of allowing this interpretation. You still have some degree of uncertainty, which makes it (slightly) more fair.

[crizh]

My entire point was that I don't think the semantics are relevant here.

You get one question per two caster levels. Those aren't two questions, they are the same question asked twice. I could ask the question once in every language that I know. Each would be semantically completely different but would nevertheless all be the same question.

The hubris involved in thinking that you can simply re-phrase the question to pull the wool over the eyes of a Greater Deity is staggering.

As has been pointed out the probabilities of getting the correct answer change with each repeat. They rise to essentially 100% immediately, you get 4 questions at the first level you can cast the spell.

If the mechanics render the table meaningless why bother printing the table?

Now that I think about it all of the negative results are either that the Deity in question doesn't know the answers or deliberately intends to deceive the questioner. Why would any of those things change in under a minute?

[ArcanistSupreme]

My entire point was that I don't think the semantics are relevant here.

You get one question per two caster levels. Those aren't two questions, they are the same question asked twice. I could ask the question once in every language that I know. Each would be semantically completely different but would nevertheless all be the same question.

The hubris involved in thinking that you can simply re-phrase the question to pull the wool over the eyes of a Greater Deity is staggering.

As has been pointed out the probabilities of getting the correct answer change with each repeat. They rise to essentially 100% immediately, you get 4 questions at the first level you can cast the spell.

If the mechanics render the table meaningless why bother printing the table?

Now that I think about it all of the negative results are either that the Deity in question doesn't know the answers or deliberately intends to deceive the questioner. Why would any of those things change in under a minute?

"Were you telling the truth?"=/="Will I be attacked today?" Or any other specific question with a yes or no answer, for that matter.

"Were you telling the truth?" is not a valid substitute for any specific question at all, and as such is a distinctly different question.

[Maxios]

Rogue with invisibilty ring and a +1 dagger. That wizard would never see it coming :smallamused:

[olentu]

My entire point was that I don't think the semantics are relevant here.

You get one question per two caster levels. Those aren't two questions, they are the same question asked twice. I could ask the question once in every language that I know. Each would be semantically completely different but would nevertheless all be the same question.

The hubris involved in thinking that you can simply re-phrase the question to pull the wool over the eyes of a Greater Deity is staggering.

As has been pointed out the probabilities of getting the correct answer change with each repeat. They rise to essentially 100% immediately, you get 4 questions at the first level you can cast the spell.

If the mechanics render the table meaningless why bother printing the table?

Now that I think about it all of the negative results are either that the Deity in question doesn't know the answers or deliberately intends to deceive the questioner. Why would any of those things change in under a minute?

Yeah they are still not the same question. Just because you don't like that by expending resources someone can lessen the effects of one part of the rules does not make it wrong or the two questions the same.

Really with all the totally not working parts of the rules this fits in just fine.

[Tehnar]

There exists a DM ruling to a lot of spells.Or, what I mean is that a single DM might rule each spell differently. Or even the same DM might rule the results of a spell differently dependent on the time it was cast.

For example, in a game where a fighter is trying to kill a wizard. After the DM asks the players actions for the day, and the wizard casts contact other plane successfully, the DM might tell the wizard that the fighter will attack him that day.

However, the fighter (even though he wants to fight the wizard) can't find him due to the wizard hiding in his MMM. So it ends up that the DM lied to the wizard, since nothing will attack him that day.

The point I am trying to make is that, while contact other plan when successfully cast might give correct information, it usually won't. Since the one who decides the answers is a DM, a human, and not a greater deity.

[137beth]

That's just arguing semantics. In that case, I could say, that a 1 lvl Commoner can overpower a 20 lvl wizard, since there can exist a sufficiently gimped and suicidal wizard to make it happen. That sort of an argument is pointless.

Pretty much the entirety of core rules are based on semantics. The thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one". As it happens, the best way IS to find a sufficiently terrible build (or to just be a sorcerer).


Yeah they are still not the same question. Just because you don't like that by expending resources someone can lessen the effects of one part of the rules does not make it wrong or the two questions the same.

Really with all the totally not working parts of the rules this fits in just fine.
As I said before, whether or not you can reword a question to ask it again is virtually meaningless, because you STILL can't guarantee that you will get the right answer. Even if you ask the same question 1000 times, there is still a chance you will get a lie every time.
And for that matter, if the answer you get is inconsistent, you have no way to tell which one was correct. If the first time you ask something you get a "yes", and the next time a no...well, guess what? You now know the answer is either yes or no...or those are both lies and it is something else. In short, asking the same question repeatedly still doesn't give you a 100% chance of avoiding attack.

[Gametime]

The hubris involved in thinking that you can simply re-phrase the question to pull the wool over the eyes of a Greater Deity is staggering.



I think this is a perfectly good reason to disallow Contact Other Plane abuse in-game. It's essentially DM fiat, however, and doesn't really have any relation to the rules beyond "what the rules should be."

For that matter, the table itself is bizarre. The fact that there's a flat percentage chance that the deity will know something or not, regardless of which deity it is or what the question is about, is patently ridiculous. As long as one aspect of the spell is breaking verisimilitude, it doesn't seem like a huge deal that another aspect is.

[jseah]

^About COP, I might like to point out something about using COP in that fashion.
You run out of spell slots.
Asking every question in triplicate burns through your spells like a 10 year old through a candy jar.

I wish people would stop thinking that it would solve everything. It's a major advantage that the target has to defend from (Mindblank or Nondetection) but still has to be acted on.


Well, at least it doesn't solve everything unless you bind an elemental weird (MM2) for it's COP at will as a free action supernatural ability...
And I'm sure that would count as sufficiently nasty to be far into TO territory.

EDIT:
At most, the wizard will know the time and place of an incoming attack.

And if there's too many of these attacks incoming, then he'll have way too many to defend from. Or he'll run out of questions.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'd like to know where this mistaken idea came up that you can't ask the same question twice. There is nothing in the rules to support this. It does not say "unique questions," it says "questions."

Binding an elemental weird is not something a high level wizard would be loathe to do. This is a theoretical discussion, not practical, thus any trick that can gain an advantage can and will be used by the wizard.

Also, a TO wizard will have hundreds of questions available to ask in a given day. It's not unheard of to have a caster level in the hundreds or two-hundreds. If they use all their 5th level slots in just one day a week, they can ask upwards of a thousand questions depending on CL optimization to determine all threats for that week.

[137beth]

@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.

[Emmerask]

Well it normalizes at a certain number of asked questions and the distribution would indicate the right answer. Though this mixes OOC knowledge ie the probabilities with IC knowledge ie the answers.


/Edit I like the don´t ask questions twice houserule will use it for my games too now :smallsmile:

[Zodiac]

Well it normalizes at a certain number of asked questions and the distribution would indicate the right answer. Though this mixes OOC knowledge ie the probabilities with IC knowledge ie the answers.
:smallsmile:

It wouldn't be OoC for a wizard who likely has maxed ranks in several knowledges to know that gods' may try to screw them over. Nor would it be strange for the wizard to go with the most consistent answer from their divine magic 8-ball, regardless of any actual statistical analysis.

Seriously, what were the devs thinking when they wrote up CoP? :smallannoyed:

[Radar]

@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.
Ok, so the answer will statistical. With multiple questions with varying answers you just estimate the true one (and it's likeliness) by assuming binomial distribution (you can assume some more complicated distribution to account for random answers). This means, that the wizard will prepare his spellslots for the situation (or situations) with the highest probability and he will keep a bunch of scrolls and limited-use items just in case of alternative scenarios. In the long run it will be the most cost-efficient method of keeping high security standards.

[BeholderSlayer]

@above: it still doesn't matter, because you still can't guarantee you will get the right answer. And even if you do ask hundreds of times, you are likely to get a mix of different answers, and you wont' know which one is correct.

I'm not sure where you get this mistaken belief that you absolutely must know for 100% certain. If you get the same answer twice, there is only a 3% chance you got the wrong answer. There is less than a 1% chance to get the same erroneous answer three times. It is reasonably safe to assume that consistency reveals truth in this situation.

He can easily prepare for battle every time his COP warns him of even a possible threat, and by doing so will be prepared for >99.9% of battles.

[Emmerask]

It wouldn't be OoC for a wizard who likely has maxed ranks in several knowledges to know that gods' may try to screw them over. Nor would it be strange for the wizard to go with the most consistent answer from their divine magic 8-ball, regardless of any actual statistical analysis.

Seriously, what were the devs thinking when they wrote up CoP? :smallannoyed:

Yes you could argue that someone studied the spell to an extant that he knows the likelihood of the answers but this is pretty much in the dms hands.
The knowledge that the gods may want to screw you alone is not enough if you don´t know the probabilities.

If no one has done it yet and you didn´t study it too then all the knowledge in the world does not help you :smallsmile:

[BeholderSlayer]

Yes you could argue that someone studied the spell to an extant that he knows the likelihood of the answers but this is pretty much in the dms hands.
The knowledge that the gods may want to screw you alone is not enough if you don´t know the probabilities.

If no one has done it yet and you didn´t study it too then all the knowledge in the world does not help you :smallsmile:

There is no DM in this exercise. There are only the rules. This is a theoretical discussion, and as such a DM ruling has no place in it.

There is no way a wizard would NOT have a fairly good understanding of how often his questions are answered truthfully. He may not know the exact probabilities, but he absolutely would have a general idea.

[Emmerask]

Is there anywhere a passage in the rules that says the caster does know this?
Or where do you take this certainty about the knowledge?

[BeholderSlayer]

Is there anywhere a passage in the rules that says the caster does know this?
Or where do you take this certainty about the knowledge?

I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that a spellcaster would have a general idea of what effect his spell will have before he casts it. It's not like wizards just memorize a spell with no idea what it will do. If he didn't know, how would have any clue that he could get more reliable answers from a greater deity?

It makes no sense to think the caster wouldn't have a reasonable idea of the outcome of his efforts.

[Emmerask]

Ah, but you wanted a theoretical raw discussion, therefore anything that is not written is not allowed nor reasonable :smallwink:

[BeholderSlayer]

Ah, but you wanted a theoretical raw discussion, therefore anything that is not written is not allowed nor reasonable :smallwink:

Right. So wizards throw fireballs at peasants because they tried to cast locate object. Monks are not proficient with their fists. Fighters don't even know what a scimitar IS. Rogues don't know that traps exist, and don't know that hiding makes them harder to see.

Nobody in the world ever does anything because they don't know what will happen.

[Emmerask]

And that is why Raw is stupid :smallsmile:

[BeholderSlayer]

And that is why Raw is stupid :smallsmile:

Applying a little common sense doesn't require a DM.

[The Glyphstone]

This is starting to remind me of the old warhammer 40K 'maxim' of "If it doesn't say you can't, you can". Most typically referenced in "Well, the codex doesn't say I can't have my Warboss quad-wielding twin-linked gatling railguns...". Things like Drowning to Heal and Monks proficient in Unarmed are stupid oversights - casters apparently not knowing what their spells is beyond 'stupid oversight' and into 'incapable of walking and chewing gum simultaneously'.

[BeholderSlayer]

This is starting to remind me of the old warhammer 40K 'maxim' of "If it doesn't say you can't, you can". Most typically referenced in "Well, the codex doesn't say I can't have my Warboss quad-wielding twin-linked gatling railguns...". There are some things that just don't count as Rule 0 despite not being in the rulebook - casters knowing what spells they prepared and what those spells do is one of them.

+1 to that. Well said.

[crizh]

I'd like to know where this mistaken idea came up that you can't ask the same question twice. There is nothing in the rules to support this. It does not say "unique questions," it says "questions."

Binding an elemental weird is not something a high level wizard would be loathe to do. This is a theoretical discussion, not practical, thus any trick that can gain an advantage can and will be used by the wizard.

Also, a TO wizard will have hundreds of questions available to ask in a given day. It's not unheard of to have a caster level in the hundreds or two-hundreds. If they use all their 5th level slots in just one day a week, they can ask upwards of a thousand questions depending on CL optimization to determine all threats for that week.

I'm not sure where you get this mistaken idea that your opinion is more important than anyone else's.

You want this discussion to favour the Wizard and so constantly ignore points that don't support your opinion, argue strict reading of anything non-wizard that might be a little debatable if it might threaten the Wizard and the loosest possible reading of anything you have convinced yourself makes the Wizard an unassailable God.

With regards CoP you are looking at the wrong numbers.

There is a 12% chance that the Gods themselves do not know the answer to your impertinent question or have decided to deliberately mislead you. It doesn't matter how many times you ask a particular question or how you weasel the wording the answer is still going to be the same.

I don't know or I ain't telling won't change no matter how many times you ask.

[Lans]

I'm not sure how extra actions help when the wizard is going first.

How is the wizard going first?

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm not sure where you get this mistaken idea that your opinion is more important than anyone else's.

You want this discussion to favour the Wizard and so constantly ignore points that don't support your opinion, argue strict reading of anything non-wizard that might be a little debatable if it might threaten the Wizard and the loosest possible reading of anything you have convinced yourself makes the Wizard an unassailable God.

With regards CoP you are looking at the wrong numbers.

There is a 12% chance that the Gods themselves do not know the answer to your impertinent question or have decided to deliberately mislead you. It doesn't matter how many times you ask a particular question or how you weasel the wording the answer is still going to be the same.

I don't know or I ain't telling won't change no matter how many times you ask.

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong numbers, the odds of determining truth are even better.

In regards to the answer not changing, that isn't how it works. Unlike divination, which says:

As with augury, multiple divinations
about the same topic by the same caster
use the same dice result as the first
divination spell and yield the same answer
each time
Contact Other Plane does not have any similar statement. Every time you ask a question you may get a different answer. Even when the result ends up "Don't Know," it states that the entity "tells you it doesn't know," which is not the same as actually not knowing. It is only telling you so.

[BeholderSlayer]

How is the wizard going first?

By going more-firster. Contingencies.

[137beth]

Ok, so the answer will statistical. With multiple questions with varying answers you just estimate the true one (and it's likeliness) by assuming binomial distribution (you can assume some more complicated distribution to account for random answers). This means, that the wizard will prepare his spellslots for the situation (or situations) with the highest probability and he will keep a bunch of scrolls and limited-use items just in case of alternative scenarios. In the long run it will be the most cost-efficient method of keeping high security standards.

Yes. Earlier on, there was a claim that the wizard could gain 100% certainty. The point I was trying to make is that he cannot be certain, even if he is reasonably confident.
@beholder: read my posts more carefully. I assumed that you COULD ask the same question multiple times, AND get a different answer each time.

Now, your'e left with another problem. If you want to be nearly certain that you get the correct answer, you will have to ask the same question a lot in order to know. A 20th level wizard only gets 20+ a bunch of bonus uses of contact other plane each day. Now, if the question is "will I be attacked tomorrow", and the wizard uses all their high level spell slots to determine that the answer is "yes", they still don't know when or how they will be attacked the next day. This is why foresight was proposed before CoP--it tells you exactly when you will be attacked. The wizard will not be able to prepare for every possible attack using CoP alone, they will need foresight.

[Lans]

By going more-firster. Contingencies.

How is it going firster? What is triggering the contigency?

[crizh]

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong numbers, the odds of determining truth are even better.

In regards to the answer not changing, that isn't how it works. Unlike divination, which says:

Contact Other Plane does not have any similar statement. Every time you ask a question you may get a different answer. Even when the result ends up "Don't Know," it states that the entity "tells you it doesn't know," which is not the same as actually not knowing. It is only telling you so.

You're conveniently ignoring the column that says Lie.

Again.

The Dieties in question only lie if you get 91 or higher on the dice roll. This excludes the possibility that a 'Don't Know' answer is actually a lie. A Lie answer might well be 'Don't Know' but not vice versa. Random Answer is a Lie with the complication that the Diety does not know and there is a finite probability they might accidentally tell you the truth.

So in the Edge case of 'Lie' which is only 9% why in the name of Dawkins would a Diety 'Lie' and then when asked the same frakking question seconds later tell the truth?

Applying a little common sense does not require a DM.

[Radar]

You're conveniently ignoring the column that says Lie.

Again.

The Dieties in question only lie if you get 91 or higher on the dice roll. This excludes the possibility that a 'Don't Know' answer is actually a lie. A Lie answer might well be 'Don't Know' but not vice versa. Random Answer is a Lie with the complication that the Diety does not know and there is a finite probability they might accidentally tell you the truth.

So in the Edge case of 'Lie' which is only 9% why in the name of Dawkins would a Diety 'Lie' and then when asked the same frakking question seconds later tell the truth?

Applying a little common sense does not require a DM.
This actually can be slightly amended by asking a different deity for every iteration of a similar question (in that case, it might be even the same question).

[Baron Corm]

I've made a simple, illustrative build using the spymaster class that Ozymandias9 brought to my attention, which I believe could assassinate any wizard, without being built specifically to counter one, and is also useful against monsters, and playable at all levels:

Human Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Ghost-Faced Killer 7/Spymaster 7

1: Rogue 1
2: Rogue 2
3: Rogue 3
4: Fighter 1
5: Fighter 2
6: Rogue 4
7: Spymaster 1
8: Spymaster 2
9: Spymaster 3
10: Ghost-Faced Killer 1
11: Ghost-Faced Killer 2
12: Ghost-Faced Killer 3
13: Ghost-Faced Killer 4
14: Ghost-Faced Killer 5
15: Ghost-Faced Killer 6
16: Ghost-Faced Killer 7
17: Spymaster 4
18: Spymaster 5
19: Spymaster 6
20: Spymaster 7

Human: Improved Initiative
1: Skill Focus (Bluff)
3: Mage Slayer
Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Court Blade)
6: Blind Fight
9: Power Attack
12: Pierce Magical Concealment
15: Darkstalker
18: Pierce Magical Protection

It can penetrate all magical defenses with Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, and ghost-faced killer's Ghost Sight. It can kill most, if not all wizards in one round with a full attack. It can easily get a full attack off by being immune to divinations, and using Darkstalker-assisted Hide. So the plan is to walk up to the wizard, kill him while he's still flatfooted (can't use immediate actions), then walk away.

If you think it would help more, you could drop the ghost-faced killer levels and add in Hide in Plain Sight, wearing a Blindfold of True Darkness to see through superior invisibility. You could also get the spymaster capstone as early as level 12. I just thought this build was cooler :smalltongue:.

Here are my damage calculations:
Weapon:

+5 Elven Court Blade (1d10, 18-20/x2)

Binding (+1, casts Dimensional Anchor on-hit as a swift action for 10 minutes, 2/day, MIC)
Holy (+2, 2d6 extra damage against evil creatures, SRD) (use whatever applies to the wizard's alignment)
Magebane (+1, 2d6 extra damage against arcane spellcasters and creatures with arcane SLAs, +2 weapon enhancement against the same, MIC)
Vicious (+1, 2d6 extra damage, but 1d6 damage done to wielder, SRD)

Damage:

1d10 (base) + 7 (enhancement) + 6d6 (weapon abilities) + 6d6 (sneak attack) + 34 (power attack) + 10 (Strength) =
1d10 + 12d6 + 51 = 5.5 + 42 + 51 avg = 98.5 average damage per hit

Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, keeping Magebane: 84.5 average damage per hit

Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, if sneak attack is denied, and you don't use Power Attack because his AC is unrealistically high (the lowest amount you could possibly do): 29.5 average damage per hit

Activate belt of battle if necessary to easily take out foe in one round. 29.5 x 4 x 2 = 236, so all attacks don't need to hit, but probably will. Again, this is way too conservative of a number, but it is nearly 100% reliable, which is why I put it here.

So counter that. If any liberal interpretations are required to counter it, keep in mind that a liberal interpretation of Deep Cover (spymaster 7's ability) makes you immune to see invisibility and true seeing. So you could walk around throwing sticks at the wizard until he dies, and he couldn't really do anything in return. But I think that, even in a reasonable, non-TO game, in which the spymaster class is taken, the rogue has a big advantage over the wizard, possibly as much as a wizard has over a fighter.

For reference, the relevant line from Deep Cover reads as follows: "While she operates under deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate to her cover identity; they reveal nothing related to her spymaster persona."

Edit: And from reading some more of the counters listed in this thread, you can remove all of the wizard's contingencies with a targeted scroll of disjunction. Neither of which (ridiculous contingencies or disjunction) would see play in a normal game.

[crizh]

This actually can be slightly amended by asking a different deity for every iteration of a similar question (in that case, it might be even the same question).


Yet more twisting and turning to try and avoid the reality of the table in the PHB.

I'll state, yet again, that if you allow a re-roll every time the caster repeats the same stupid question the table becomes meaningless. Immediately.

Ask the same question 4 or 5 times and you are extremely unlikely to not get the truth the majority of the time.

The table clearly exists. Asking the same question over and over is therefore not going to get you a re-roll.

[Jolly]

I still find it amusing that in all the discussion of abusing broken mechanics here, no one has addressed Diplomacy only a single mental state that it can cause.

[crizh]

I'm getting a bit confused between this thread and the BG one but I'm pretty sure Diplomacy was dismissed because it's ultimate effect is [mind affecting] and it's considered best to consider both sides in such a scenario to be PC's.

[Gametime]

I'll state, yet again, that if you allow a re-roll every time the caster repeats the same stupid question the table becomes meaningless. Immediately.



No, it doesn't. The chances of getting a true answer by asking a question twice are directly derived from the chances of getting a true answer by asking a question once; in other words, your chances of success are always derived from the table.

The results represented on the table might cease to be directly applicable if you ask the same question more than once, but the table never becomes meaningless, certainly not immediately.

Further, an argument from undesirable consequences is a logical fallacy. Arguing that the rules don't say something because that would make something else in the rules pointless isn't valid.


How is the wizard going first?

Foresight, Celerity, and a Contingency or two just in case they have a Contingency that triggers off Celerity.

[BeholderSlayer]

You're conveniently ignoring the column that says Lie.

Again.

The Dieties in question only lie if you get 91 or higher on the dice roll. This excludes the possibility that a 'Don't Know' answer is actually a lie. A Lie answer might well be 'Don't Know' but not vice versa. Random Answer is a Lie with the complication that the Diety does not know and there is a finite probability they might accidentally tell you the truth.

So in the Edge case of 'Lie' which is only 9% why in the name of Dawkins would a Diety 'Lie' and then when asked the same frakking question seconds later tell the truth?

Applying a little common sense does not require a DM.

I wasn't really ignoring it. I just didn't feel like typing ever single possible response. I addressed the only one that really mattered.

He might lie and then change his mind seconds later because he's rolling dice and basing his responses off the results. :smallbiggrin:

[BeholderSlayer]

Human Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Ghost-Faced Killer 7/Spymaster 7

How are you planning to get close to the wizard?

[Baron Corm]

How are you planning to get close to the wizard?

What is preventing me from walking up next to him without him noticing?

[crizh]

No, it doesn't. The chances of getting a true answer by asking a question twice are directly derived from the chances of getting a true answer by asking a question once; in other words, your chances of success are always derived from the table.

The results represented on the table might cease to be directly applicable if you ask the same question more than once, but the table never becomes meaningless, certainly not immediately.


I can't be bothered to go dig out enough stat's to give you an accurate number but I figure after 5 questions the chances of having less than 3 correct answers is below 1%. I'd say that's pretty close to zero.

It's certainly a whole heck of a lot less than 12%. Which makes the table meaningless.

That last sentence sounds familiar. I think I might have used it before....



Arguing that a rule don't say something because that would make itself pointless is valid.


Fixed that for ya.

[olentu]

I can't be bothered to go dig out enough stat's to give you an accurate number but I figure after 5 questions the chances of having less than 3 correct answers is below 1%. I'd say that's pretty close to zero.

It's certainly a whole heck of a lot less than 12%. Which makes the table meaningless.

That last sentence sounds familiar. I think I might have used it before....



Fixed that for ya.

Er yeah it is really not valid. The rules are not required to conform to your sense of propriety any more then they are to mine. Just because you don't like something does not mean it is wrong or that the words have been modified.

[Gametime]

I can't be bothered to go dig out enough stat's to give you an accurate number but I figure after 5 questions the chances of having less than 3 correct answers is below 1%. I'd say that's pretty close to zero.

It's certainly a whole heck of a lot less than 12%. Which makes the table meaningless.

Less than 1% is, indeed, very close to zero. It still is not zero. "Meaningless" means "without meaning"; it assuredly does not mean "with very little meaning."

Further, as I pointed out, the ability to get an answer that has a nearly 100% truth rate is derived directly from the statistics in the table. If the spell said "Use these numbers if the question is asked once, but just have a 100% success rate if the question is asked twice," then you would have an argument. But you don't, because asking the question twice merely increases the chance of receiving a correct answer based on the original probability.

So, we come back to the fact that 1>0. Close, but not equal.


Fixed that for ya.

Nothing in the table invalidates itself, and as I've exhaustively explained above, nothing in the spell description renders the table useless because the values of each successive asking of the same question are based on the original probabilities from the table.

Further, there's no reason to assume that your "fix" for the internal inconsistencies brought up by the table is the only way to go about things, or even the most sensible way. Assigning random chance to determine whether a god knows something is, as I've said before, completely nonsensical. It would make more sense to ignore the table completely than to abide unerringly by the original values it provides, regardless of repetition.

Of course, the rules are set up so that we don't have to resort to either of those extremes.

[BeholderSlayer]

What is preventing me from walking up next to him without him noticing?

Oh, like him being on a demiplane you couldnt gain access to with the help of a deity, Astral Projection, any numerous number of reasons. No you can't just walk up to a high level wizard.

[Jolly]

I'm getting a bit confused between this thread and the BG one but I'm pretty sure Diplomacy was dismissed because it's ultimate effect is [mind affecting] and it's considered best to consider both sides in such a scenario to be PC's.

It's ultimate end, yes. You don't need to convince the wizard to be a fanatic to kill him though, so it's kind of a moot point.


Oh, like him being on a demiplane you couldnt gain access to with the help of a deity, Astral Projection, any numerous number of reasons. No you can't just walk up to a high level wizard.

If he's always hiding on his private demiplane I don't really know why you'd need to kill him.

[Emperor Tippy]

If he's always hiding on his private demiplane I don't really know why you'd need to kill him.

Astral Projection. A Simulacrum of yourself plus a Permanent Telepathic Bond with it.

A wizard can interact without any problem, even when remaining in a secure location.

For day to day stuff and other activities that aren't likely to gain you experience; Simulacrum's are your best bet. Sure they are half your level, but that is still 10th level at level 20. More than enough to handle day to day affairs at court or in a city. When something more is needed your Astral Projection can arrive quickly and easily.

[Baron Corm]

Oh, like him being on a demiplane you couldnt gain access to with the help of a deity

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the method of doing this. Could you be more specific? Also, what Jolly said. As far as being able to influence the Material while doing this...


Astral Projection. A Simulacrum of yourself plus a Permanent Telepathic Bond with it.

A wizard can interact without any problem, even when remaining in a secure location.

For day to day stuff and other activities that aren't likely to gain you experience; Simulacrum's are your best bet. Sure they are half your level, but that is still 10th level at level 20. More than enough to handle day to day affairs at court or in a city. When something more is needed your Astral Projection can arrive quickly and easily.

If you find their astral projection, sever the silver cord, and it will kill the wizard himself as well as the projection. Otherwise treat as normal wizard. The simulacrum is not a real threat, having half of your class levels. This still leads to the scenario of the wizard just sitting around being non-threatening in his demiplane/"court". So what else?

[Emperor Tippy]

If you find their astral projection, sever the silver cord, and it will kill the wizard himself as well as the projection. Otherwise treat as normal wizard.
The Astral Projection won't be going anywhere without all of the wizard defenses and a full collection of bodyguards. There are also very few things that can sever a silver cord, which is only visible and corporal on the Astral Plane.

The simulacrum is not a real threat, having half of your class levels. This still leads to the scenario of the wizard just sitting around being non-threatening in his demiplane/"court". So what else?

10,000 level 10 wizards aren't a threat? And they aren't meant for combat or the like anyways. Their job is to handle day to day affairs and interactions; talking with kings, running your various corporations/guilds, gathering information, clearing out low level dungeons for "free" wealth, etc.

The only time that your Astral Projection actually shows up is when you need to personally take actions.

XP is gained by using your Gateraped solar to Wish a CR 20 monster/character into your trapped room where your Astral Projection has readied an action to cast Disjunction followed by a quickened Orb of death. Do that once a day and you gain a level every 13 days, do it 3-4 times per day and you gain a level per week.

If you need to deal with a threat/enemy in the real world then you simply have one of your Simulacrum take command of one of your armies of loyal followers. A dozen Solars with a dozen Great Wyrm Gold dragons supporting them will deal with most things quite well.

And then, if you somehow manage to sever the silver cord on the wizards Astral Projection, and have the DM rule that such a death can affect a body under a Temporal Stasis spell, then you don't even gain a round as his Contingent True Resurrection activates and he comes right back to life.

[The Mentalist]

Awesome take over the world Teir 1 stuff

I love you Tippy.

[Baron Corm]

I wasn't talking about a TO campaign, though. I was talking about a real one, with a Dungeon Master. Your strategies are all horribly inefficient compared to Pun-Pun, and would fly in a real campaign just as easily. Class and tier are meaningless in the situation you are describing, all you need is "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". No wizard required.

[Emperor Tippy]

I wasn't talking about a TO campaign, though. I was talking about a real one, with a Dungeon Master. Your strategies are all horribly inefficient compared to Pun-Pun, and would fly in a real campaign just as easily. Class and tier are meaningless in the situation you are describing, all you need is "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". No wizard required.

Um, this is standard practice in my high level campaigns.

There is a reason that entire (20+ game) campaigns are devoted to the task of killing (permanently) a single level 20 wizard. It involves doing favors for gods, finding lost artifacts, occasionally messing with time, and exploring the planes; all of that to even get a chance to actually fight the BBEG (not win, just fight him). And that's with an entire party of similarly optimized characters (including both arcane and divine full casters).

And it is still DM fiat which gives them that chance.

[Baron Corm]

Um, this is standard practice in my high level campaigns.

There is a reason that entire (20+ game) campaigns are devoted to the task of killing (permanently) a single level 20 wizard. It involves doing favors for gods, finding lost artifacts, occasionally messing with time, and exploring the planes; all of that to even get a chance to actually fight the BBEG (not win, just fight him). And that's with an entire party of similarly optimized characters (including both arcane and divine full casters).

And it is still DM fiat which gives them that chance.

So you just admitted yourself that a character whose best ability is to summon or become things that are better than himself (solars) is best relegated to a DMPC, because it breaches the spirit of the game to the point where it has no place in a campaign (on the PC side).

[Emperor Tippy]

So you just admitted yourself that a character whose best ability is to summon or become things that are better than himself (solars) is best relegated to a DMPC, because it breaches the spirit of the game to the point where it has no place in a campaign (on the PC side).

No, the PC's do the exact same thing. I'm saying that even with the PC's doing so, it still requires what amounts to DM fiat to give them a chance to win.

After level 17, you virtually never see any of the PC's real bodies and PC's virtually never permanently die. And the times they do are almost always because they 1) pissed off a god or 2) pissed off an Epic caster.

[Baron Corm]

Of course you can run a campaign however you'd like, but I feel that if you mentioned this in any other thread, it would have the tag (good luck getting this past your DM). At any rate, I have become convinced that wizards are not undefeatable gods outside the scope of a campaign that will allow (what would be generally seen as) broken combos. I have no particular desire to make a build that will beat a sarrukh or solar.

[Gametime]

At any rate, I have become convinced that wizards are not undefeatable gods outside the scope of a campaign that will allow (what would be generally seen as) broken combos.

So wizards aren't undefeatable if you disallow wizards from doing the things that make them undefeatable.

I think we'd all be comfortable agreeing with that statement, but it doesn't say much about the capabilities of a wizard that isn't restrained by this hypothetical D. M. Everyman.

[Emperor Tippy]

Of course you can run a campaign however you'd like, but I feel that if you mentioned this in any other thread, it would have the tag (good luck getting this past your DM). At any rate, I have become convinced that wizards are not undefeatable gods outside the scope of a campaign that will allow (what would be generally seen as) broken combos.

Wizards are not unbeatable gods if the DM decides to use house rules to remove that quality from them.

Frankly, it doesn't really matter. By the time you are in high level play none of this matters over much.

Even a decently built level 20 Fighter can singlehandedly defeat the entire military of most nations. Running a nation or ruling the world is trivial. But so what? Your enemies do the exact same thing in other planes. You are either looking for a way to become a deity or doing something else suitably epic (as in attempting to change the tide of the Blood War, trying to assemble an entire set of artifacts, trying to learn mysteries of magic that lower level practitioners can't even conceive of, etc.).

Levels 1-3: Local level threats (orcs kidnapping a maiden, bandits on the local trail, etc.).
Levels 4-6: Regional level threats (a large group of orcs moving into the area, a bandit king raiding a village, kings guard, etc.).
Levels 7-10: National level threats (invading army, court wizard, guild leader, etc.).
Levels 11-14: World level threats (demon portals, raiding a dragons lair, traveling to other planes, etc.).
Levels 15-17: Planar level threats.
Levels 18-20: Multiplanar threats
Levels 21+: Godhood

That's generally how things work in D&D, balance wise. After about 14th-15th level most of the locals just don't matter. Your (or you and your party) are more than a match for even the more powerful nations on your own. Your party has more wealth regularly on hand than the national treasury. By 17th level, laws simply don't apply. You do what you will and the locals have as much impact as gnats, on your own you can raise single villages to domination over entire continents or bring world spanning empires down to nothing in a few months.

By 20th level, less than a handful of individuals or creatures on the material plane even matter.

----
So who really cares if the party are unkillable demigods in high level play? It does nothing to prevent you from playing games or having fun. Perhaps an epic wizard or god has rules against out right, open, conflict between high level characters. You counter the actions of another faction in the Epic Wizard's court, perhaps under a given set of rules.

[Baron Corm]

So wizards aren't undefeatable if you disallow wizards from doing the things that make them undefeatable.

I think we'd all be comfortable agreeing with that statement, but it doesn't say much about the capabilities of a wizard that isn't restrained by this hypothetical D. M. Everyman.

If these are the pretenses we are operating under, then the very first reply in this thread answers the question. I think the only reason that the thread reached 15 pages is because the pretenses weren't well-defined enough. I apologize for assuming that mine were "right", but they were based on what I thought the OP was asking for. It's really up to him (and anyone who is asking themselves this question) to decide which of the answers given is right.

[The Glyphstone]

Admittedly, ET, you're not exactly the norm, but pretty far towards the end of the bell curve in terms of average campaign power and optimization levels.

[Emperor Tippy]

Admittedly, ET, you're not exactly the norm, but pretty far towards the end of the bell curve in terms of average campaign power and optimization levels.

True, but it works just fine. And people regularly claim that a ton of this stuff never sees actual play. Which is false.

[BeholderSlayer]

All I have to say is, thank you, Tippy.

[JonestheSpy]

All I have to say is, thank you, Tippy.

Yes, players getting off on ridiculous power fantasies everywhere are in your debt.

[Sewercop]

If I read this right, having beholderslayer saying the same thing over and over again means nothing. But Emperor Tippy`s word means he can finish this in one page?

No offense to you Tippy, but I feel like I want to scream. I haven`t felt nerd rage in a while, damn!

[zalmatra]

dnd isnt balanced for 1v1 the balance is more party versus monsters/party of monsters/ party of evil adventurers/ single boss creature

if you have a smart dm that constructs a proper 3d environment the power between classes shifts quite a bit along with requiring knowledge skills

[Myth]

I've made a simple, illustrative build using the spymaster class that Ozymandias9 brought to my attention, which I believe could assassinate any wizard, without being built specifically to counter one, and is also useful against monsters, and playable at all levels:

Human Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Ghost-Faced Killer 7/Spymaster 7

1: Rogue 1
2: Rogue 2
3: Rogue 3
4: Fighter 1
5: Fighter 2
6: Rogue 4
7: Spymaster 1
8: Spymaster 2
9: Spymaster 3
10: Ghost-Faced Killer 1
11: Ghost-Faced Killer 2
12: Ghost-Faced Killer 3
13: Ghost-Faced Killer 4
14: Ghost-Faced Killer 5
15: Ghost-Faced Killer 6
16: Ghost-Faced Killer 7
17: Spymaster 4
18: Spymaster 5
19: Spymaster 6
20: Spymaster 7

Human: Improved Initiative
1: Skill Focus (Bluff)
3: Mage Slayer
Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse
Fighter 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Court Blade)
6: Blind Fight
9: Power Attack
12: Pierce Magical Concealment
15: Darkstalker
18: Pierce Magical Protection

It can penetrate all magical defenses with Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment, and ghost-faced killer's Ghost Sight. It can kill most, if not all wizards in one round with a full attack. It can easily get a full attack off by being immune to divinations, and using Darkstalker-assisted Hide. So the plan is to walk up to the wizard, kill him while he's still flatfooted (can't use immediate actions), then walk away.

If you think it would help more, you could drop the ghost-faced killer levels and add in Hide in Plain Sight, wearing a Blindfold of True Darkness to see through superior invisibility. You could also get the spymaster capstone as early as level 12. I just thought this build was cooler :smalltongue:.

Here are my damage calculations:
Weapon:

+5 Elven Court Blade (1d10, 18-20/x2)

Binding (+1, casts Dimensional Anchor on-hit as a swift action for 10 minutes, 2/day, MIC)
Holy (+2, 2d6 extra damage against evil creatures, SRD) (use whatever applies to the wizard's alignment)
Magebane (+1, 2d6 extra damage against arcane spellcasters and creatures with arcane SLAs, +2 weapon enhancement against the same, MIC)
Vicious (+1, 2d6 extra damage, but 1d6 damage done to wielder, SRD)

Damage:

1d10 (base) + 7 (enhancement) + 6d6 (weapon abilities) + 6d6 (sneak attack) + 34 (power attack) + 10 (Strength) =
1d10 + 12d6 + 51 = 5.5 + 42 + 51 avg = 98.5 average damage per hit

Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, keeping Magebane: 84.5 average damage per hit

Damage with Brilliant Energy Weapon, if sneak attack is denied, and you don't use Power Attack because his AC is unrealistically high (the lowest amount you could possibly do): 29.5 average damage per hit

Activate belt of battle if necessary to easily take out foe in one round. 29.5 x 4 x 2 = 236, so all attacks don't need to hit, but probably will. Again, this is way too conservative of a number, but it is nearly 100% reliable, which is why I put it here.

So counter that. If any liberal interpretations are required to counter it, keep in mind that a liberal interpretation of Deep Cover (spymaster 7's ability) makes you immune to see invisibility and true seeing. So you could walk around throwing sticks at the wizard until he dies, and he couldn't really do anything in return. But I think that, even in a reasonable, non-TO game, in which the spymaster class is taken, the rogue has a big advantage over the wizard, possibly as much as a wizard has over a fighter.

For reference, the relevant line from Deep Cover reads as follows: "While she operates under deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate to her cover identity; they reveal nothing related to her spymaster persona."

Edit: And from reading some more of the counters listed in this thread, you can remove all of the wizard's contingencies with a targeted scroll of disjunction. Neither of which (ridiculous contingencies or disjunction) would see play in a normal game.

For you my friend, and for those of you just joining this fine, 15 page discussion:

1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.
4. The following effects are assumed based on point 3:
4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).
4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.
4.3 Assuming we can somehow get the Wizard to step out of his home in physical form, he has taken further precautions. Those are:
4.3.1. He has cast Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm), either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.
4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.
4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.
4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), or will simply Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.
4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.
4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.


Things that have been proposed, and are remotely viable are:

Using 10 levels of Silver Key to enter his Demiplane and MMM spell.
Using Black Dog to somehow poison him.
Going action Nova in round 0 and splattering him with physical attacks.

Those however, while overcoming some of the Wizard's advantages, can't really cope with everything he's got.

[Emperor Tippy]

If I read this right, having beholderslayer saying the same thing over and over again means nothing. But Emperor Tippy`s word means he can finish this in one page?

No offense to you Tippy, but I feel like I want to scream. I haven`t felt nerd rage in a while, damn!

Didn't you look at my signature? I equal win. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

All shall bow before Emperor Tippy and his Tier 1 might!

[The Shadowmind]

Okay lets even to odds a bit in favor of the attacking team. 3vs1.
The team of three is 1 Factotum lvl 20, 1 Psychic Warrior(prestige classes recommended) 1 Shadowcaster 3/Beguiler1/Noctumancer10/Mystic Theurge 6.
Tactics:
The Shadowcaster is for counterspelling, and if you can find a way to make it work with just a equivalent of the Command spell that affects intelligent constructs then find a way to get a large quantity of Adamantinehorrors under your control to cast Mage’s Disjunction.(Need method to reduce the wizard's will save or make it irrelevant)(Just get a method to have Mage's Disjunction cast often somehow). The wizard will likely teleport, but that is a few contingencies down, then shadowwalk to get to the wizard again, repeat till unable to follow.

The Factotum and the Psychic Warrior will need ranks in the Lucid Dream skill(The PsiWar will have to take them crossclass).
Factotum and PsiWar enter the Wizard's dreamscape while the wizard is rest to re-prepare lots spells.

The PsiWar there is to play the game of who goes firstest with things like Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity. The wizard can't teleport out of the dreamscape, his astral projection is irrelevant, the solar's he gated in are nowhere to help, and many contingencies have been blown for the day along with spell slots.

The Factotum now can use things like scrolls of shapechange and timestop, as well as extra actions for cunning surge to play on closer to equal ground with the Wizard. Still going to be a close fight. the Factotum if low on scrolls can just exit the Dreamscape and returning with all the used ones replaced and at full hp and ip. If succesful in reducing the wizard to negatives drag the body to the Dreamheart and finish him there.
While this is going on if the Shadowcaster/Beguiler is still alive he should be working on remove the clones and severing the cord to astral projection.


It isn't a perfect strategy, and it needs some work.

[crizh]

Less than 1% is, indeed, very close to zero. It still is not zero.

It's still not 12% which is what the table says is the chance that the Gods themselves don't frakking know or hate you so much they are lying to you. If I were arguing DM fiat here I would have said;
'This spell explicitly annoys the target, the more you cast it and the more you repeat yourself the more the probability of the target actively trying to get you killed by lying approaches one.'

But I ain't, I'm pointing out that 12% is not 1% and therefore the table is meaningless from the first moment you can cast the spell assuming you have an INT higher than 3.

You would save a great deal of ink, and therefore a finite number of Penguins, by just writing '1% chance of failure.'



Assigning random chance to determine whether a god knows something is, as I've said before, completely nonsensical.

But is unfortunately RAW. Unless you can come up with an adequate explanation why the Gods themselves become more knowledgeable between castings you're stuck with it.

But of course what you will do instead is slip 'DM fiat' in by the back door to resolve the situation in favour of the Wizard.

[Myth]

Okay lets even to odds a bit in favor of the attacking team. 3vs1.
The team of three is 1 Factotum lvl 20, 1 Psychic Warrior(prestige classes recommended) 1 Shadowcaster 3/Beguiler1/Noctumancer10/Mystic Theurge 6.
Tactics:
The Shadowcaster is for counterspelling, and if you can find a way to make it work with just a equivalent of the Command spell that affects intelligent constructs then find a way to get a large quantity of Adamantinehorrors under your control to cast Mage’s Disjunction.(Need method to reduce the wizard's will save or make it irrelevant)(Just get a method to have Mage's Disjunction cast often somehow). The wizard will likely teleport, but that is a few contingencies down, then shadowwalk to get to the wizard again, repeat till unable to follow.

The Factotum and the Psychic Warrior will need ranks in the Lucid Dream skill(The PsiWar will have to take them crossclass).
Factotum and PsiWar enter the Wizard's dreamscape while the wizard is rest to re-prepare lots spells.

The PsiWar there is to play the game of who goes firstest with things like Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity. The wizard can't teleport out of the dreamscape, his astral projection is irrelevant, the solar's he gated in are nowhere to help, and many contingencies have been blown for the day along with spell slots.

The Factotum now can use things like scrolls of shapechange and timestop, as well as extra actions for cunning surge to play on closer to equal ground with the Wizard. Still going to be a close fight. the Factotum if low on scrolls can just exit the Dreamscape and returning with all the used ones replaced and at full hp and ip. If succesful in reducing the wizard to negatives drag the body to the Dreamheart and finish him there.
While this is going on if the Shadowcaster/Beguiler is still alive he should be working on remove the clones and severing the cord to astral projection.


It isn't a perfect strategy, and it needs some work.

Sooo.... 3 Tier 2s is it? Then allow my Wizard to be Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3

Persisted Foresight, Persisted Shapechange, Persisted Absorption, Persisted Anticipate Teleporation, Greater, Persisted Ray Deflection, Persistent Supperior Resistance, via Metamagic Effect.

Your 3 boys come up. Foresight > Greater Celerity > Maximized Empowered Time Stop (one via Rod, the other via Instant Metamagic) 7 rounds to act:

Round 1: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon
Round 2: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon (use Pearl of Power to cast Gate again)
With persisted Foresight , Absorption and Shapechange that's 6 lvl 9 spells. If the Wizard has Int 18 + 6 from item + 5 from a tome = 29 Int so we ran out of lvl 9s.
Round 3 to 8: lay down metamagicked Cloudkills, Sleet Storms, Freezing Fog, Acid Fog etc. Incantatrix can make great use of metamagic and rods.
Round 9: Summon your phantom steed (although you should have that at all times but let's assume for some reason you don't) and fly away. When you get there, shapechange in something appropriate

Time Stop ends, the fight starts. You are now facing two CR 40 Gold Dragons and are in the middle of very very nasty AOE spells. The Wizard is 240 ft. away and Shapechanged in a Solar. He has line of sight and he has Abrupt Jaunt.

If you are still alive, expect a maximized, twin rayed, repeat spell Enevration to be cast with Chain Spell via Instant Metamagic. He will also have scrolls of Disjunction and Wish, just for the heck of it. Have fun.

Also, Elves don't need to sleep, as well as some other races. Even a Human can get to the point where he is no longer Human (an Outsider for example) and thus he doesn't sleep and you can't invade his dreams.

[crizh]

This was a nice summary, I've added some comment in-line because that was easier.


For you my friend, and for those of you just joining this fine, 15 page discussion:

1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.
4. The following effects are assumed based on point 3:
4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).

With debatable time traits and limited access deliberately misinterpreted into no access. Rather than, say, using the rules....

4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.
4.3 Assuming we can somehow get the Wizard to step out of his home in physical form, he has taken further precautions. Those are:
4.3.1. He has cast Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm), either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.

And almost certainly prevents him using Mind Blank.

4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.

Quietly ignoring Metamorphosis (Dire Turtle), Contingent Synchronicity and Sense Danger (MoE)

4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.

Ignoring the dubious mental gymnastics going on above in an attempt to end-run the percentages in the table CoP isn't as good as Metafaculty which will always produce better results.

4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), or will simply Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.
4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.

Transdimensional Spell/Power

4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.

Assuming you are covering your ears and going lalalalalala about Psions having a better version of Contingency.

Things that have been proposed, and are remotely viable are:

Using 10 levels of Silver Key to enter his Demiplane and MMM spell.
Using Black Dog to somehow poison him.
Going action Nova in round 0 and splattering him with physical attacks.

Those however, while overcoming some of the Wizard's advantages, can't really cope with everything he's got.

[crizh]

Your 3 boys come up. Foresight > Greater Celerity > Maximized Empowered Time Stop (one via Rod, the other via Instant Metamagic) 7 rounds to act:


I love how you go about pretending to make your case there with all that whizz-bangery.

Ooooh, look at the shiney....


Whilst completely ignoring


The PsiWar there is to play the game of who goes firstest with things like Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity

Good job.

I think I know a PR company that is hiring.

[Myth]

To both posts above i have to admit - I am not versed in Psionics at all. I'll leave the others to comment on that.

[crizh]

To be fair I wouldn't have gone with a PsiWar, some sort of Slayer build is probably better.

Sense Danger is the Power in Magic of Eberron that lets you manifest another Power as an immediate action even whilst flat-footed.

It comes down to who has the most Contingencies and how well are they worded. I'm pretty sure the Psion has the edge there. Temporal Acceleration and Synchronicity are both game breakers. When it comes right down to it you can use a Contingent Synchronicity to pop of Temporal Acceleration for 15xp where a crafted Contingent Celerity costs 1500gp and 37xp (I think, just guessing) so resource management gives the Psion an edge.

[Myth]

Damn i really have to make myself go and read on Psionics and Incarnum. Anyway, how do you deal with Abrupt Jaunt? It's an immediate action as well.

[crizh]

Isn't this a game of who can get Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration out first?

I don't see Abrupt Jaunt being an issue.

[Myth]

It is an issue because you can't really do anything in a timestop that hurts the other caster aprart from summoning or stacking AOE. Abrupt Jaunt helps the Conjurer get away from any immediate danger.

[dextercorvia]

This was a nice summary, I've added some comment in-line because that was easier.

Foresight isn't mind effecting, no need for the Wizard to not be Mind Blanked.

[crizh]

It is an issue because you can't really do anything in a timestop that hurts the other caster aprart from summoning or stacking AOE. Abrupt Jaunt helps the Conjurer get away from any immediate danger.

You pull a Bag of Holding full of Quintessence over his head.

If you are unfamiliar with Psionics I should explain that Quintessence is an Instantaneous Creation power that creates a substance that completely pulls from time objects/creatures completely immersed in it.

Once you are encased in it that's it, game over. Effectively the Wizard never really leaves the Psion's Temporal Acceleration.


Foresight isn't mind effecting, no need for the Wizard to not be Mind Blanked.

It is however a divination that affects the caster.

[Gametime]

It's still not 12% which is what the table says is the chance that the Gods themselves don't frakking know or hate you so much they are lying to you. If I were arguing DM fiat here I would have said;

But I ain't, I'm pointing out that 12% is not 1% and therefore the table is meaningless from the first moment you can cast the spell assuming you have an INT higher than 3.

Perhaps an analogy will help explain what I mean.

There are random treasure tables in the DMG. The exact percentages don't matter for this argument, but let's say you want to give the party some moderate pieces of loot. Let's also say that the chance of getting a given +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is 12%.

If a DM wants to roll on that table twice, because the party is to receive more than one piece of loot, the chance of getting that +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is a bit over 22%. This is significantly higher than 12%.

By your logic, this means that the original table is useless. This is not the case. Rather, the probabilities asserted in the original table inform and prescribe the probabilities derived from any given operation on the table. The chance of finding a piece of moderate loot that isn't a +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is 88%; the chance of finding two consecutive pieces of loot, of which neither is a +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability, is significantly lower (about 78%). That's not invalidating the table; that's just math.

Similarly, asking the same question multiple times increases the chance that you will at some point have received a true answer. This isn't invalidating the table, nor does it change the probability of any given answer received being true. All it changes are the odds of the set of answers containing a true answer.


But is unfortunately RAW. Unless you can come up with an adequate explanation why the Gods themselves become more knowledgeable between castings you're stuck with it.

But of course what you will do instead is slip 'DM fiat' in by the back door to resolve the situation in favour of the Wizard.

I am aware that it is RAW. My point is that RAW is silly. Arguing that we can't ask the same question multiple times because it violates the table (and that would be silly) is a) false, and b) an argument from undesirable consequences. It is thus invalid. We can't just ignore the silly parts of RAW in a RAW discussion.

I would also ask you to not prescribe motivations to me. I have no interest in seeing wizards be significantly more powerful than other classes, and I certainly am not arguing as I am simply out of some perverse desire to see the rules twisted to suit myself. I am arguing in a way consistent with what I perceive to be true. I assume that you are doing the same. If you could extend me the courtesy of not assuming what I will do in my games, or why I will do it, I would be most grateful.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'd also like to point out that telling somebody they are getting off on a power fantasy just because they play the game the way they want to is unfair.

I would never try to insinuate that somebody is somehow selfish for playing the game the way they want to, I honestly can't think of an optimizer that would. For some reason non-optimizers like to hold such an attitude toward optimizers, though, as if they are morally wrong for liking a certain playstyle.

[Emmerask]

Since we are still in the "not going to happen in 99,9% of real campaigns" territory:
-be a tob class
-have iron heart surge
-find a way to be effected negatively by magic

Surge away any magic existing in the multiverse
after that start to beat down any level 20 commoner formerly known as wizard you find.

Well some of the wizards are now stuck in their little planes dieing of starvation or thirst but well who cares they can´t get out anyway. If they can get out they are still level 20 commoners waiting in line to be slaughtered :smallwink:

[The Shadowmind]

Sooo.... 3 Tier 2s is it? Then allow my Wizard to be Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3
It is three Tier 3s, Psion could be replace the PsiWar, but the PsiWar still works.s


Persisted Foresight, Persisted Shapechange, Persisted Absorption, Persisted Anticipate Teleporation, Greater, Persisted Ray Deflection, Persistent , via Metamagic Effect.

Disjunction(Shadowcaster-Adamintie Horrors), COP(Factotum), Who goes firtest battle(PsiWar), following the teleports(Shadowcaster), Counterspells(Shadowcaster)


Your 3 boys come up. Foresight > Greater Celerity > Maximized Empowered Time Stop (one via Rod, the other via Instant Metamagic) 7 rounds to act:.
Only the Shadowcaster/Beguiller is coming in the inintal attack, and should remain out of LOE, with his own Adamintie cone hat with a viewing window to use whatever technique he can to make the wizard waste resources.


Round 1: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon
Round 2: Gate in Celestial Gereat Wyrm Gold Dragon (use Pearl of Power to cast Gate again)
With persisted Foresight , Absorption and Shapechange that's 6 lvl 9 spells. If the Wizard has Int 18 + 6 from item + 5 from a tome = 29 Int so we ran out of lvl 9s.
Round 3 to 8: lay down metamagicked Cloudkills, Sleet Storms, Freezing Fog, Acid Fog etc. Incantatrix can make great use of metamagic and rods.
Round 9: Summon your phantom steed (although you should have that at all times but let's assume for some reason you don't) and fly away. When you get there, shapechange in something appropriate

Time Stop ends, the fight starts. You are now facing two CR 40 Gold Dragons and are in the middle of very very nasty AOE spells. The Wizard is 240 ft. away and Shapechanged in a Solar. He has line of sight and he has Abrupt Jaunt.

If you are still alive, expect a maximized, twin rayed, repeat spell Enevration to be cast with Chain Spell via Instant Metamagic. He will also have scrolls of Disjunction and Wish, just for the heck of it. Have fun.

Also, Elves don't need to sleep, as well as some other races. Even a Human can get to the point where he is no longer Human (an Outsider for example) and thus he doesn't sleep and you can't invade his dreams.

The lack of sleep maybe a problem. I need to check the region of dreams if it requires the person to actually be asleep to enter the dreamscape.

[dextercorvia]

It is however a divination that affects the caster.

That is not what Mind Blank protects against. Foresight gives the caster information, it is not gathering information on the caster.

Or does Mind Blank 'protect' against True Strike?

[crizh]

Perhaps an analogy will help explain what I mean.

There are random treasure tables in the DMG. The exact percentages don't matter for this argument, but let's say you want to give the party some moderate pieces of loot. Let's also say that the chance of getting a given +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is 12%.

If a DM wants to roll on that table twice, because the party is to receive more than one piece of loot, the chance of getting that +1 longsword of arbitrary magical ability is a bit over 22%. This is significantly higher than 12%.

By your logic, this means that the original table is useless. This is not the case.

Yes, yes it is.

Your analogy is false. You do not roll an arbitrary number of times on the treasure tables to get the result you want. You just choose what you want the players to get. Because rolling until you get the item you want to 'plot-device' into the game is pointless. It makes the table meaningless for it's intended purpose.



I am aware that it is RAW. My point is that RAW is silly. Arguing that we can't ask the same question multiple times because it violates the table (and that would be silly) is a)

Not the argument I was making.

You were arguing that the RAW was silly because the table determined whether the Gods knew something or not based on a dice roll.

Nice deflection though. I like how each subsequent Quote not inheriting the previous one enables you to pretend like you are arguing my point whilst instead saying lalalalalala, no ravenous bugblater beasts here!!

So in yet another post you have failed to address the substantive issue of the Gods mysteriously becoming more informed with each time you repeat the question.

You have already managed to say that in some cases we don't need to rely on DM fiat but can adjudicate based on good ol'fashioned common sense.

I suggest you give it a try.

[crizh]

That is not what Mind Blank protects against. Foresight gives the caster information, it is not gathering information on the caster.

Or does Mind Blank 'protect' against True Strike?


This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself

Sure sounds like a Divination that provides information about the caster.

This was debated extensively in the BG thread by luminaries like PhaedrusXY. He may be a Wizard apologist and I don't agree with most of his opinions but when he concludes that yes Mind Blank probably does block Foresight I'm inclined to view that as fairly definitive. Those guys have forgotten more about Wizard TO than I will ever care to know.

I've not made it all the way through but this did catch my attention.


So I think arguably we could say that it would be likely that a typical high level moderately optimized psion could quite possibly find and destroy the typical high level moderately optimized wizard, because the psion is a lot more likely to be using Metafaculty than the wizard is to be using complicated Contact Other Plane shenanigans. The psion is also very likely to have access to Psychic Reformation, so he can customize his powers known and feats to take advantage of any vulnerabilities that Metafaculty reveals. Of course, this costs quite a bit of XP, but the payoff is worth it.


Although I'm starting to suspect that all this proves is that the Psion is really tier 1...

[Radar]

Although I'm starting to suspect that all this proves is that the Psion is really tier 1...
Tier 2 characters are only behind Tier 1 in terms of versatility not power, but a Psion abusing Psychic Reformation? Probably Tier 1.

Apart from that, I would agree on a psion winning an encounter against a wizard due to ability of breaking action economy like a twig. The advantage the wizard has on the other hand is the ability to gather powerful minions through Planar Binding and Gate shenanigans.

As for the unfortunate Contact Other Plane: the argument is not, that deities become more knowledgable with each iteration. As a general assumption each deity is a separate being and thus one of them might know different things then the other, so if the target of the question is not actively and successfuly hiding from all deities, then it's fully reasonable to ask more then one deity and gain more information. I'm not going to be adamant about that, just explaining my point of view.

One more thing: where is this whole dreamscape thing described? I've never heard of it and the ease of offing someone through their dreams worries me somewhat.

Yet another thing: there is a specific material (can't remamber the name), that can trap the soul of the person slain by such a weapon. How would it react with the Astral Projection? Severing the cord with a Silver Sword kills the caster, so it might be a reasonable assumption, that the Astral Projection carries the casters soul.

[crizh]

Thinaun Complete Warrior p136

I've been careful to use the plural. I honestly don't give a crap about Dieties and their stat's and don't propose to start polluting my mind with that sort of cheese now.

However, I imagine that something with the 'Greater Deity' Divine Rank (whatever that is) knows most anything they want to know. I would imagine that in almost all Pantheons most Deities know most everything about the mortal planes and if any of them know more than the others it is because that is their shtick. Boccob for example has an excuse for knowing more than the others. Or Vecna.

Most of this stupid TO stuff goes to one of these Deities first anyway. If Boccob or Vecna don't know (or ain't tellin') I'm pretty sure you're screwed.

[The Shadowmind]

The Region of Dreams is either from Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes. I don't remember which.

Edit revisited tactic:Have the adamantie cone hat be invisible, and forgo see invisibility on the S/B. This make the cone see through to you, but not see-through to the likely permanent true seeing the wizard has, and have Invisibility, Greater case on the S/B. Have the S/B take leader ship to get a 18th level cohort, a Spell thief 18. The spellthief then takes a prepared COP from the factotum with steal SLA, and uses it, the COP from the Factotum get returned then the spellthief repeats until all questions needed are answered, the Factotum decides which questions to be asked(Highest INT). If failed the spellthief is the one who suffer's the INT/CHA reduction. Repeat with any 6th of lower spell the Factotum can prepare that would be useful to abuse in this manner).

[Baron Corm]

I believe I've already answered most of your questions, Myth, but I will repeat them in a list manner which is easier to see.


1. Despite my original post, this thread has, for the most part, been about the killing of a theoretical level 20 Wizard.
2. As such the DM is not a valid way of reasoning out of broken spells.
3. It is assumed by the majority of this fine community that, a very intelligent level 20 Wizard will take the best advantage out of his spells and protect himself to the best of his ability.

With no DM, and EVERYTHING allowed, your build is beaten by a level 1 psion (Pun-Pun) or Iron Heart Surge (as mentioned by Emmerask). Done.

If you wish to operate with a DM who allows just enough broken things for the wizard to be at the height of his power, that is something completely different. We'll go with that from this point forward.


4.1. The Wizard's real body is sitting home at his private demiplane, created via Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).
4.2. The Wizard will usually be using Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). If the silver cord is serverd he has Clones waiting around, or contingent Ressurections etc. So this point is moot.

Alright, I don't know what silver key is to be honest, but we'll take that to get into his demiplane.


4.3.1. He has cast Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm), either extended via rod, or persisted via the Incantatrix class ability. This means he is never flatfooted.
4.3.2. He has memorized Celerity, or Greater Celerity (PHBII) which lets him act when imitative is rolled. Hence the Wizard always goes first.
4.3.3. He will cast Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to be even better prepared. See the vast discussion about the spell's effectiveness above.

Spymaster 7 is immune to divinations, including foresight and contact other plane. He can thus render you flatfooted by Hiding, in Plain Sight if you require it. This can be gained with an item from Tome of Magic so, if required, doesn't even have to fit into the build.


4.3.4 He will be flying around, by virtue of his Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), or will simply Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to his destination. This eliminates anyone walking up behind him as he is strolling trough the park. We are not talking about Gandalif and his walking stick here.

Not really an issue with level 20 WBL. Get some Wings of Flying. You won't be able to teleport before I kill you in one round.


4.3.5. Whenever he has to rest out of the comfort of his Demiplane, he will not do so at an inn, or eat foot prepared by level 1 Commoners. He has a Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) at his disposal to cover for those needs. So stabbing him while he is sleeping is also quite hard to pull off.

I'll look to silver key again for this.


4.5.6. Even if you are somehow able to get to him, and past Foresight + Celerity, he has Contingency and Crafted Contingencies so he can safely get away from you.

A scroll of disjunction will remove all contingencies with no save. A rogue build has plenty of UMD.

Before I leave it at this, and I don't think I'll be making any more posts in this thread, let me just say that even with all of these things countered, I am positive that you could find some other way to make your wizard invincible. This is because you are assuming a DM who is allowing just enough things for the wizard to be invincible. A player can never beat a DM.

[Gametime]

Yes, yes it is.

Your analogy is false. You do not roll an arbitrary number of times on the treasure tables to get the result you want. You just choose what you want the players to get. Because rolling until you get the item you want to 'plot-device' into the game is pointless. It makes the table meaningless for it's intended purpose.

I don't mean for this to sound insulting, but it's probably going to, and I apologize in advance for that.

I'm not sure you understand the math behind this.

You don't roll on the table an arbitrary number of times to get the magic item you want, in all likelihood. However, if you are rolling on the table more than one time, the chances of getting a specific magical item in at least one of those rolls will be significantly higher than the probability listed in the table. However, each individual roll will yield the same probability of getting a given magical item.

If there is a 50% chance to get a magic kitten, and I roll once, there is a 50% chance I will get that kitten. If I roll twice, there is a 50% chance that the second roll will yield a kitten. There is a 75% chance that either roll will have yielded a kitten, and thus, taken holistically, my chance of getting a kitten is 75%. This is not the probability indicated by the table. However, the table is not meaningless; this is the simple result of combining probabilities in a sequence.


Not the argument I was making.

You were arguing that the RAW was silly because the table determined whether the Gods knew something or not based on a dice roll.

Nice deflection though. I like how each subsequent Quote not inheriting the previous one enables you to pretend like you are arguing my point whilst instead saying lalalalalala, no ravenous bugblater beasts here!!

So in yet another post you have failed to address the substantive issue of the Gods mysteriously becoming more informed with each time you repeat the question.

You have already managed to say that in some cases we don't need to rely on DM fiat but can adjudicate based on good ol'fashioned common sense.

I suggest you give it a try.

Before addressing your argument, I'd like to say two things.

First, I did not read the entirety of the post you had quoted, and so I may have forgotten what I specifically said. I was in a bit of a rush when I typed up my response, and couldn't remember exactly what we had been talking about. I tried to infer it from the content of your post, but it may be the case that I got it wrong and apparently switched positions in the middle of a discussion. If that is the case, I apologize. It was not my intention.

Second, please stop acting as though I am deliberately trying to deceive you. I am not. I am not trying to twist the rules to my advantage, I am not trying to employ obfuscating debating tactics, and I am not trying to "win" this discussion. I'm just arguing for what I perceive as the truth.

On to the argument.

The gods do not become more informed each time you ask the same question. The actual result is even more bizarre, if anything, since their subsequent answers to the question have no relation to their previous answers, but they emphatically are not more informed.

There is an 88% chance that a god knows the answer to a given question and will answer that question truthfully. The first time I ask, there is an 88% chance that the god will know, etc. The second time I ask, there is an 88% chance that the god will know. The third time I ask, there is an 88% chance that the god will know, and so on and so on.

If I ask three times, there is roughly a 99.9% chance that at any given point I have received a true answer, but the god still only had an 88% chance of knowing and giving the true answer for any given iteration of the question. At no point did the god become more knowledgeable. (There is a not-insignificant chance that the god knew, and then didn't know, and then knew again, which is still freakin' bizarre. But the god never becomes more knowledgeable.)

Hopefully, I've made myself clear. :smallsmile:

[BeholderSlayer]

Silver Key can only grant access to a demi-plane if there are portals that access it. No portal, no Master of Doors access. Since "a wizard did it," there is no portal and thus no access by Silver Key.

[Jayabalard]

If there is a 50% chance to get a magic kitten, and I roll once, there is a 50% chance I will get that kitten. If I roll twice, there is a 50% chance that the second roll will yield a kitten. There is a 75% chance that either or both roll will have yielded a kitten, and thus, taken holistically, my chance of getting a kitten is 75%. This is not the probability indicated by the table. However, the table is not meaningless; this is the simple result of combining probabilities in a sequence.You're not really explaining much (you're just saying, "this is the way that it is"),and if he lacks the math, he might benefit from a slightly more detailed explanation. Stats was a long time ago for me, but here's a quick rundown on how it works (as I recall)

In your particular example, you have a 50% chance to get a "magic kitten" each time. You have 4, equally possible results:

the first roll is not a magic kitten, and the second roll is also not a magic kitten
the first roll is a magic kitten, and the second roll is not a magic kitten
the first roll is not a magic kitten, and the second roll is a magic kitten
the first roll is a magic kitten, and the second roll is also a magic kitten

so 3/4 (or 75%) of the time you will wind up with at least one magic kitten.

When you're looking for "at least one occurrence" out of a sequence of probabilities, the general formula is: the probability of success the first time + (the probability of failure the first time * the probability of success the second time) + (the probability of failure the first time * the probability of failure the second time * the probability of success the third time ) + ...

So with a 50% success rate, you'd get

two tries: .5 + .5 * .5 = .75 (75%)
three tries: .5 + .5 * .5 + .5 * .5 * .5 = .875 (87.5%)
four tries: .5 + .5 * .5 + .5 * .5 * .5 + .5 * .5 * .5 * .5 = .9375 (93.75%)
etc


So with a 12% success rate (from that earlier example), you'd get

two tries: .12 + .88 * .12 = .2256 (22.56%)
three tries: .12 + .88 * .12 + .88 * .88 * .12 = .318528 (31.8528%)
etc

[crizh]

Silver Key can only grant access to a demi-plane if there are portals that access it. No portal, no Master of Doors access. Since "a wizard did it," there is no portal and thus no access by Silver Key.

I strongly suggest that you go and re-read the section in Manual of the Planes pertaining to Demiplanes.

I did so to inform myself during this debate. I don't like to just stick my size 13's in my gob and make a fool of myself by talking rubbish.

All Demiplanes have a Portal.

Any Demiplane that somehow did not have a Portal could not ever be accessed by anyone ever. With the possible exception of using the Breaching Obelisk but then you'd be trapped so not the best plan.

Incidentally the definition of Demiplane includes the phrase Extradimensional Space. So anyone that travels to the Ethereal and finds your Portal can use Transdimensional Spell/Power to rain pain down on your entire demiplane..

Stick a big bucket of Quintessence over the Portal and drop a Transdimensional AMF next to that and the Wizard is completely screwed.

[BeholderSlayer]

I strongly suggest that you go and re-read the section in Manual of the Planes pertaining to Demiplanes.

I did so to inform myself during this debate. I don't like to just stick my size 13's in my gob and make a fool of myself by talking rubbish.

All Demiplanes have a Portal.

Any Demiplane that somehow did not have a Portal could not ever be accessed by anyone ever. With the possible exception of using the Breaching Obelisk but then you'd be trapped so not the best plan.

Incidentally the definition of Demiplane includes the phrase Extradimensional Space. So anyone that travels to the Ethereal and finds your Portal can use Transdimensional Spell/Power to rain pain down on your entire demiplane..

Stick a big bucket of Quintessence over the Portal and drop a Transdimensional AMF next to that and the Wizard is completely screwed.
Can I get a page number on your evidence for "every demiplane has a portal?"

My understanding is that demiplanes may be accessible by a location (portal) OR certain situations. For purposes of keeping unwanted others out, the wizard's plane grants access in the situation that the wizard grants access, personally. This is from page 7 of MotP. If there is something later in the book I have overlooked, please toss me a page number.

[crizh]

Hahahahahahaha!

Lol.

Doh!^1000000


characters cannot use plane shift or similar spells to travel to or from a demiplane, except at the specific locations where the demiplane is close to its coterminous plane.

Right before it says that certain prison planes might have no portals at all.

Dumbass.

Regardless all demiplanes have the aforementioned points that are close to a coterminous plane so the point stands.

edit

If it does have a portal you can certainly specify a Portal Key just as you mentioned.

[BeholderSlayer]

heh, be careful with the language, it took me like 4 reads to figure out you were making fun of yourself :smallwink:

I'll have to read that quote more in context, personally.

What is stopping the wizard from disbarring entry without his express permission, even via plane shift into coterminous locations?

Like I said, I'll have to read over that section.

[Tiki Snakes]

A Prison Plane that nobody could get into would be pretty useless, really. :smallsmile:

[ArcanistSupreme]

A Prison Plane that nobody could get into would be pretty useless, really. :smallsmile:

Unless it was made so after the prisoner was put inside. On a related note, could a wizard build such a demiplane around himself? I mean, as long as he's never planning on leaving anyway, why not create a plane that is completely inaccessible? If he could, that kind of wraps up the whole argument. If he can't, then back to the drawing board...

[crizh]

What is stopping the wizard from disbarring entry without his express permission, even via plane shift into coterminous locations?


The lack of any text even suggesting that you can do so?

There is a number of bits in the text talking about Prison Planes that strongly indicate that there is nothing you can do about plane shifting.

Other than Forbiddance obviously. Which is what PhaedrusXY and all the other TO lunatics in the BG thread are using. Which also strongly suggests that Genesis doesn't let you do that.

[BeholderSlayer]

The lack of any text even suggesting that you can do so?

There is a number of bits in the text talking about Prison Planes that strongly indicate that there is nothing you can do about plane shifting.

Other than Forbiddance obviously. Which is what PhaedrusXY and all the other TO lunatics in the BG thread are using. Which also strongly suggests that Genesis doesn't let you do that.
There is also a lack of text suggesting you can't. The wizard created the plane after all, and unless the spell expressly forbids something (i.e. flowing time in Psionic Genesis) then it is usually assumed you can do it when it fits within the general function of the spell.

As a side example, you may cast a spell to create an Energy Transformation Field which is keyed to any spell. While the example spells have targets of other creatures, there is nothing preventing a wizard from having an Energy Transformation Field be keyed to a spell like Absorption. The wizard created it, and thus it follows the demands placed on it by its creator. Energy Transformation Field cannot, however, be keyed to a spell with an experience cost. This is explicitly stated.

The wizard creates the environment to his whim, therefore creating the coterminous zones where he sees fit and setting the conditions by which the zones can be used.

I do, however, suggest you refrain from using ad hominem attacks on people that aren't even here to defend themselves. Calling somebody a "TO lunatic" only weakens your argument, and is likely against the forum rules even if they are not present.

[Myth]

I think he meant that in a good hearted way, i know i like poking at my friends with strong words but when we both know i mean no ill intent.

Anyway, so far two cases have been presented that both are actually able to take out the lvl 20 (reasonably) optimized Wizard:

Baron Corm's Spymaster/Ghostfaced Killer build, which I haven't researched in depth as i need acess to the appropriate material (which i do have but not at this very moment) but it sounds very reasonable if he is indeed undetectable by Foresight (i have to check that very carefully) if he has some way to do both:

a) UMD a Disjunction scroll
b) full attack to kill the Wizard

Because if you do a) first to disable the contingencies, then you face all the Wizard's prepared spells and the full might of his Time Stop. If you do b) first the moment you land one hit his contingency kicks in.

crizh's build which actually uses several decent classes at level 20, but so far leaves no chance for disproof. I am no expert on Psionics so I'll turn to the rest of the Playgrounders here to review his build. It does seem solid so far. Well, the fact that you need 3+ 20 level characters with their own powerful builds (I mean relly, why are Psionics considered bad i just don't get it after what i've read here about actions and feat rearrangement)

Can some of the other potent TOers comment on these two builds in particular?

[BeholderSlayer]

links would be helpful...too many pages to search :smallbiggrin:

[Chipp Zanuff]

Can some of the other potent TOers comment on these two builds in particular?

All right, Beholder_Slayer pointed this out to me and I just want to make some clarification:

Practical Optimization: For use in an actual game. These builds will be customized to meet the Original Poster's theme and restrictions, with suggestions for the DM in case the allowed sources are too restrictive for the idea to be practical.

Hypothetical Optimization: For use with statistics and mathmatic calculations. Or minor thought experiments like this thread. Potentially playable in an arena-based game where the objective isn't interaction but measuring potential.

Theoretical Optimization: Pun-Pun, Shadow Miracles, and everything else that will ruin a campaign. This is the stuff that should never be touched.

[crizh]

crizh's build

I was just defending it, I can't take the credit for it.

[Myth]

Baron Crom's build as detailed in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9429287&postcount=421) post. My attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9433132&postcount=457) to counter. His counter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435649&postcount=477) to which i can answer only with books at hand.

It does look good but what i have doubts of is if he is actually immune to Foresight, and if he can both UMD and full attack at the same time.

Actually i was wrong, the original (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9433048&postcount=455)build was The Shadowmind's. crizh has been advocating for it since, and i can't really say much as i know jack about Psionics.

edit: CW Samurai'd

[crizh]

There is also a lack of text suggesting you can't.

You know that is totally the weakest argument ever.

If people like PhaedrusXY, who I respect as an extremely intelligent optimizer and who I think errs too much on the side of cutting the Wizard slack at the expense of everyone else doesn't think you can do that them I'm happy to go ahead and say he is almost certainly right.

Genesis flat-out does not give you the ability to restrict the natural accessibility of a demiplane beyond the rules presented in MotP.

[crizh]

Theoretical Optimization: Pun-Pun, Shadow Miracles, and everything else that will ruin a campaign. This is the stuff that should never be touched.

It would be nice if we could define a list of TO stuff that we won't be discussing here.

The BG thread had pretty much settled on Craft Contingent Spell, Diplomacy, CoP abuse and flowing time at the very least as being TO and not really useful.

I'd like to propose similarly Epic abuse ought to be ruled out. Yes your 20th level Wizard might theoretically have access to Epic Magic but that really moves him into Epic and out of this discussion.

[BeholderSlayer]

The thing is, this basically is a TO discussion, not a PO discussion. Saying we won't be talking about TO doesn't make sense when we ARE talking about TO, and have been since pretty much the first page.

Pun-Pun and similar things are typically even left out of a TO discussion simply because it isn't constructive to point to those exercises and claim it proves anything. A TO wizard, OTOH, has finite options when not allowed to become Pun-Pun.

There are other respected people that agree with my line of reasoning, so I am not alone.

[Myth]

Aye, there should be a middle ground. I call it reasonable TO. We don't go Pun-Pun, we don't go Wish abusing, we don't go Caster Level 280 etc.

IMO Craft Contingent Spell is not abuse of RAW like say, Ice Assassin cloning a Deity. It does what the feat was meant to do - give contingencies.

[BeholderSlayer]

Caster Level 280

I feel hated. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Myth]

No you should feel honored that your TO build is so good it's bad :smallbiggrin:

[crizh]

I agree there has to be a middle ground but it has to start with an attitude adjustment.

In the tail end of that BG thread someone was pointing out that if you side with the Wizard every time you run up against a debatable interpretation then obviously the Wizard wins.

We had this conversation in our RL game not all that long ago. Psionic Contingency was deemed unfairly overpowered compared to the magic version. We nerfed it and brought in a Craft Contingent Power feat to balance things up. You wouldn't believe the number of Psionics is teh borken conversations I've had with folks that think Arcane Magic is fine.

Inject a bit of common sense. It doesn't take a DM to tell you that at the very least you are ignoring the RAI of CoP. You want a better Divination? Find one higher than 5th level.

Flowing time. Clearly a hold over from 3.0. It's supposed to be gone from the Great Wheel so there was no need to errata the text. Every other version of Genesis got the nerf bat it doesn't take a genius to say lets take that nonsense off the table.