Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one [Archive] - Page 3

Ozymandias9

2010-09-28, 07:33 AM

Huh. I should have payed more attention. Glad that the spymaster idea went somewhere.

Realistically, something like the Spymaster build presented by Baron Crom is still going to fail if you presume sufficient paranoia. Such a build, by necessity, presumes that there is someone who the wizard is willing, under some circumstance, to allow in their actual factual physical presence. As such, it will fail under the pinnacles of CharOp present in games like Tippy runs. It should, however, be able to deal with a tier 1 in most other circumstances.

Regarding immunity to Foresight, a truly strict reading would not provide it. Foresight, as written, provides information about the person on whom it is cast: specifically, how they are going to come into harm. The spymaster capstone prevents divination from providing information about the spymaster.

However, since the spymaster would be the one doing the harming, there is at least a case to be made: I think it would fall under the same level of adjudication as, say, a divination spell for which the spymaster is not the direct target but is rather related to the information sought about the target.

It would probably help if the capstone were written a bit more exactly.

jseah

2010-09-28, 08:29 AM

^Regarding immunity to divination, I think a cheaper method (by ECL) would simply to be Vecna-blooded. I don't remember it's cost but it's definitely better than 10 levels in a PrC.

Gives you immunity to divination (and protection to non-shenanigan COP), plus even nets you data about the wizard when he divines about the next attack.

The psion is likely to work against the CO caster given in the BG forum link. In fact, I would also be prepared to believe that a well-built sorceror could do the same as well.
The TO caster would likely require Silver Key or winning the war for the Breaching Obelisk.

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-28, 09:05 AM

If we take away most of the crazy tier I tricks, I'd argue you'd have to take away psionic tricks like temporal abuse and eliminate the same tricks from the sorcerer's options (that one is obvious, though).

Really what this does is just limit the wizard's options. He will do things like take Improved Familiar and persist Shapechange on his pseudodragon familiar. While the wizard sleeps and adventures, the pseudodragon is a Formian Queen, and has taken the Mindsight feat from LoM (he qualifies due to natural telepathy). This gives him Mindsight out to 50 miles. Mindsight is neither [Mind Affecting] nor divination, and as such will find anybody with Mind Blank or immunity to divination, and will cover anybody approaching in mundane ways. If the spymaster tries to teleport, that is covered below.

The wizard will basically walk around Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, which will allow him to act in the surprise round even when there shouldn't be one (as in, I go firstest).

Psionics and other magic-users will have to contend with his Greater Anticipate Teleportation, likely Widened by use of a metamagic rod. This allows him more than ample time to prepare for combat.

blackjack217

2010-09-28, 01:18 PM

Asamodious :smallbiggrin:
Oh and dropping darkness when a caster is about to cast a 9th level spell is funny. I am also banned from casting wall of force right in front of flying dragons.
Also use conterspell as a sorcerer they will run out of spells first.

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-28, 01:55 PM

Also use conterspell as a sorcerer they will run out of spells first.

That's highly dependent upon specific build. For example, a focused specialist Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage/Nightmare Spinner will have 1 more spell per spell level per day than a sorcerer.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-09-28, 04:28 PM

That's highly dependent upon specific build. For example, a focused specialist Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage/Nightmare Spinner will have 1 more spell per spell level per day than a sorcerer.

Yeah, but against a multiple person party, the wizard is losing his actions. Of course, there are still contingencies to deal with, but it's something to consider.

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-28, 04:38 PM

Yeah, but against a multiple person party, the wizard is losing his actions. Of course, there are still contingencies to deal with, but it's something to consider.

Ah, I didn't realize this had become "can a multiple person party kill a wizard."

ArcanistSupreme

2010-09-28, 04:59 PM

Ah, I didn't realize this had become "can a multiple person party kill a wizard."

I just saw that a team had been submitted earlier, and, as it can often be the goal of a campaign to kill a wizard, I thought it would be considered acceptable. Plus, how is this different than using cohorts or followers?

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-28, 08:53 PM

I just saw that a team had been submitted earlier, and, as it can often be the goal of a campaign to kill a wizard, I thought it would be considered acceptable. Plus, how is this different than using cohorts or followers?

I suppose it isn't.

Any takers on getting past the 50 mile mindsight and anticipate teleport?

137beth

2010-09-28, 09:00 PM

Possibly a sorcerer would have some spells that disrupt divination.

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-28, 09:04 PM

Possibly a sorcerer would have some spells that disrupt divination.

Anticipate Teleportation, and Mindsight is not a divination.

Emperor Tippy

2010-09-29, 01:57 AM

Any takers on getting past the 50 mile mindsight and anticipate teleport?

Step 1: Travel to the Ethereal Plane
Step 2: Teleport (or walk) up to the character (teleporting right outside of the anticipate teleport's AOE).
Step 3: Return to the material plane.

Mindsight doesn't cross planar boundaries.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-09-29, 06:18 AM

Step 1: Travel to the Ethereal Plane
Step 2: Teleport (or walk) up to the character (teleporting right outside of the anticipate teleport's AOE).
Step 3: Return to the material plane.

Mindsight doesn't cross planar boundaries.

Well, see invisibility should cover this, but if the character is good at stealth, not so much.

Emperor Tippy

2010-09-29, 06:23 AM

Well, see invisibility should cover this, but if the character is good at stealth, not so much.

Superior Invisibility, you need True Seeing. Which depending upon rules interpretation, Mind Blank may well make worthless.

And even then, you have bypassed Mindsight.

Myth

2010-09-29, 07:46 AM

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-29, 08:27 AM

Step 1: Travel to the Ethereal Plane
Step 2: Teleport (or walk) up to the character (teleporting right outside of the anticipate teleport's AOE).
Step 3: Return to the material plane.

Mindsight doesn't cross planar boundaries.

Well done, but then it comes to initiative war/rocket tag anyway.

Emperor Tippy

2010-09-29, 10:07 AM

So you teleport outside the range of his Greater Anticipate Teleportation. You are now locked in the initiative war. However since Foresight just triggered I think using your action lets the Wizard cast Celerity.
Actually there are a few different things in play.
1) Mindsight isn't transdimensional meaning it can't find an Ethereal creature.
2) Superior Invisibility+Mind Blank (by a strict reading of the RAW) can't be penetrated by anything except Mindsight, so being on the Ethereal plane your target has no way at all to find or detect you.
3) You can attack with a transdimensional spell (I prefer using a Transdimensional Orb of Death); getting a surprise round unless the enemy has foresight up.
4) In the event that the target doesn't die on your first attack, Celerity comes into play and as your target is still flat footed they can't use any of the tricks to break into a celerity loop. Now you can either go the time stop route or just attack with another Orb of Death.
5) Even leaving aside transdimensional spell, you can still cast Time Stop while ethereal and then shift back to the material plane before readying an action to attack your target with an Orb of Death (or whatever you use to do damage).

The whole point of the Mindsight+Greater Anticipate Teleport is to stop individuals from sneaking up on you, but there are still ways around that.

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-29, 10:09 AM

Actually there are a few different things in play.
1) Mindsight isn't transdimensional meaning it can't find an Ethereal creature.
2) Superior Invisibility+Mind Blank (by a strict reading of the RAW) can't be penetrated by anything except Mindsight, so being on the Ethereal plane your target has no way at all to find or detect you.
3) You can attack with a transdimensional spell (I prefer using a Transdimensional Orb of Death); getting a surprise round unless the enemy has foresight up.
4) In the event that the target doesn't die on your first attack, Celerity comes into play and as your target is still flat footed they can't use any of the tricks to break into a celerity loop. Now you can either go the time stop route or just attack with another Orb of Death.
5) Even leaving aside transdimensional spell, you can still cast Time Stop while ethereal and then shift back to the material plane before readying an action to attack your target with an Orb of Death (or whatever you use to do damage).

The whole point of the Mindsight+Greater Anticipate Teleport is to stop individuals from sneaking up on you, but there are still ways around that.

If the target wizard is shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, they get to act in the surprise round, too. Then it's initiative war again.

EDIT: since you're back again, Tippy, what say you on the argument about whether a wizard may seal their Genesis plane from intrusion except to only themself or when they have personally granted access? May the wizard create a demiplane with no portals, designate coterminous zones as they see fit, and designate that the "situation" that allows entry is only when the wizard personally grants access?

Emperor Tippy

2010-09-29, 10:37 AM

If the target wizard is shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise, they get to act in the surprise round, too. Then it's initiative war again.
True, it's actually first a Celerity war and then it's an initiative war.

Although that is what starting with a Time Stop is for. Time Stop plus a Portable Hole or Bag of Holding filled with Quintessence is enough to capture/disable anything that you can fit in the container.

EDIT: since you're back again, Tippy, what say you on the argument about whether a wizard may seal their Genesis plane from intrusion except to only themself or when they have personally granted access? May the wizard create a demiplane with no portals, designate coterminous zones as they see fit, and designate that the "situation" that allows entry is only when the wizard personally grants access?

The rules aren't really clear. There are prison planes with very specific entry requirements, and planes that treat individuals differently (granted most of those are godly realms); but whether or not you can just outright bar any entry to anyone by any means unless you give them specific permission (or they are a specific individual) is iffy.

Your best bet for doing something like that is probably to make use of nested demiplanes that can only be entered from a portal on another demiplane. You can potentially create a maze of hundreds of interconnected planes with only a single specific route through to your final plane. One good trick is to create a stasis plane (1 round is a hundred thousand years to the rest of the universe) that applies to everyone but you. When your enemies come to get you, you have a very long time to prepare to meet them.

Note that their is nothing stopping you from making a strongly negatively (or positively) aligned, dead magic plane with but two 5 foot squares that aren't filled with solid adamantium (right infront of the entry and exit portals) where you are the only one capable of using magic.

Tehnar

2010-09-29, 10:39 AM

If you could guarantee that the wizard will stay in Dire Tortoise form, and won't have any minion spotters with access to mindsight, you could just cast Hide from Animals.

A alternative way, with a slightly liberal way of interpreting RAW, is to pick up a level of hellbreaker for Telephatic Static.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-09-29, 10:40 AM

EDIT: since you're back again, Tippy, what say you on the argument about whether a wizard may seal their Genesis plane from intrusion except to only themself or when they have personally granted access? May the wizard create a demiplane with no portals, designate coterminous zones as they see fit, and designate that the "situation" that allows entry is only when the wizard personally grants access?

Why not just use wish to cast forbiddance? Or better yet, gate in something to use wish for you or use shadow conjurations. It might be slightly more pricey, but it is undeniably legal and accomplishes the same thing.

EDIT: Or do what Tippy suggested, as it sounds way more fun.

Tiki Snakes

2010-09-29, 11:03 AM

Why not just use wish to cast forbiddance? Or better yet, gate in something to use wish for you or use shadow conjurations. It might be slightly more pricey, but it is undeniably legal and accomplishes the same thing.

EDIT: Or do what Tippy suggested, as it sounds way more fun.

I'm unsure, but I think that is why Tippy = Win. :smallwink:

BeholderSlayer

2010-09-29, 11:04 AM

Togo

2010-09-30, 03:14 PM

The whole point is that the pseudodragon familiar has 50 mile mindsight, not the wizard. Hide from Animals won't work.

Can you remind me how the pseudodragon familiar is getting a feat other than the ones in the MM?

Also, are people sure that winning initiative is the way to go? Why not just use a rocket-proof or rocket resistant build?

Basically, I'm unclear as to why being able to see the attacker 50 miles away is useful. He's no more obvious as an attacker than anyone else within 50 miles. Is this wizard confined to wilderness areas? Is there some reason you can't just disguise yourself?

Finally, are we assuming we have to catch the wizard? Some of these defences involve blowing quite a few high level spell slots just to escape, or to present powerful barriers that last for only a small portion of the day. The example of a foresighted wizard casting time stop, gating in multiple gold dragons, and then teleporting away, is blowing his spell slots on a threat he hasn't even identifed as serious.

Tehnar

2010-09-30, 03:42 PM

The whole point is that the pseudodragon familiar has 50 mile mindsight, not the wizard. Hide from Animals won't work.

Well guess then Hellbreaker 1 dip it is. Too bad its not a very friendly dip. Though it nets you a sort of hide in plain sight as well. So it can be worth it if you also get darkstalker.

Too bad the level 4 feature stowaway is not very reliable, otherwise that would be perfect for following the teleporting wizard around.

Togo

2010-10-02, 04:15 AM

I'm getting more and more convinced that the way to beat a tier 1 caster is not to build a character that wins rocket tag, but to build a character with some kind of anti-magic capability that has a reasonable grapple, is very manuovreable, and can take a rocket.

Lord Vukodlak

2010-10-02, 04:42 AM

Dark_Nohn

2010-10-02, 05:49 AM

Here's a build that I'd used previously, and I think it worked well...

Elf
1-5 Duskblade (PHB2)
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
6 Abjurant Champion
6: Weapon Focus: Longbow
7-16 Arcane Archer
9: Extra Spell: Mage Armor
12: Extra Spell: Shield
15: Rapid Shot
17-20 Abjurant Champion
18: Manyshot

The build was VERY not optimized, but here's how it worked out:
The bow I was using had three d6 elementals on it, used blade of blood, followed by true strike, activated Arcane Boost for +6 damage then ambushed with a manyshot. The damage total was something around 1d8+[5enh]+[6insight]+[1compotence(Greater Bracers of Archery)]+[4STRComposite]+[3d6Bladeofblood]+[3d6 energy] four times ended up doing somewhere around 175 HP... [minus 40 for what little damage mitigation the wizard actually had up]
Of course my victory was due to the fact that I knew that wizard was coming a minute before the wizard knew I was there, and he only had around 120 HP, and only had minimal DR and resistances up

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-02, 07:06 AM

Reach+Mage Slayer+Improved Trip+Combat Reflexes Mage Slayer prevents the Tier 1 from casting on the defensive, Reach+Trip prevents him from escaping out of your threatened area. Feats such as great cleave lets you sweep away his mirror images in a single attack, while blind fight with pierce magical concealment can help you eliminate displacement.

Remembering that your in a party of adventurers and cooperating to defeat the enemy is more effective then trying to do it yourself.

Yeah, but he goes first (assuming the dire tortoise wizard that is being discussed), and as you are flat-footed before you act, you don't threaten him and thus he can cast however he wants.

EDIT: @The above build: Sadly, both protection from arrows and wind wall completely shut you down, and both are low-level spells.

Tehnar

2010-10-02, 09:49 AM

Yeah, but he goes first (assuming the dire tortoise wizard that is being discussed), and as you are flat-footed before you act, you don't threaten him and thus he can cast however he wants.

EDIT: @The above build: Sadly, both protection from arrows and wind wall completely shut you down, and both are low-level spells.

Combat reflexes allows AoO even while flatfooted, thus he still threatens.

For the second point, a +1 force bow does away with both spells, and also eliminates most types of DR.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-02, 10:08 AM

Combat reflexes allows AoO even while flatfooted, thus he still threatens.

For the second point, a +1 force bow does away with both spells, and also eliminates most types of DR.

[/facepalm] That's what I get for just assuming I know the rules. Well, the melee build still has to get close to the wizard in question, and there is nothing about the archery build that stops the wizard from going first or casting spells.

That is a nice melee build once/if it can get close to the wizard.

olentu

2010-10-02, 03:24 PM

Combat reflexes allows AoO even while flatfooted, thus he still threatens.

For the second point, a +1 force bow does away with both spells, and also eliminates most types of DR.

Arrows made of force are still arrows.

Tehnar

2010-10-02, 03:51 PM

Actually they are not; the text of the force weapon property explicitly states that it turns shot to a force attack.

olentu

2010-10-02, 04:28 PM

Actually they are not; the text of the force weapon property explicitly states that it turns shot to a force attack.

Which can still be an arrow. Or perhaps I am missing something and you can thus present rules stating just what a force attack is including that it can not ever be an arrow.

Myth

2010-10-02, 05:56 PM

It doesn't matter if it's force or wood or fried chicken - the Wizard goes first. No archer/meleer can get the jump on him. Don't make me repeat what happens when the Wizard goes first.

olentu

2010-10-02, 06:07 PM

It doesn't matter if it's force or wood or fried chicken - the Wizard goes first. No archer/meleer can get the jump on him. Don't make me repeat what happens when the Wizard goes first.

Well that does not make it less wrong. However you do have the point that it would be better to keep things on track and only be bothered to counter incorrectness when it is not irrelevant. I suppose I shall leave it at that until circumstances change.

Togo

2010-10-02, 06:33 PM

It doesn't matter if it's force or wood or fried chicken - the Wizard goes first. No archer/meleer can get the jump on him.

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.

Don't make me repeat what happens when the Wizard goes first.

What happens is that you blow most of your 9th level slots on covering your escape, and then the attacker comes back after you on the same day and you have to think of something else.

Having time stop cast followed by gating in several CR 40 gold dragons, followed by an acid fog or similar is simply not that dangerous. Heck, even the flying dragon-guarded adamantine fortress that's so popular on the optimisation boards isn't particularly dangerous. It's easily evadable, and if the attacker can get away he just comes back later on it the day after the dragons are gone.

Funnier yet is to just leave through the gate that called the dragons, which is left open until the spells ends. And then have a good long talk with those dragons about how you know exactly who keeps on summoning them against their will, and whether they'd be interested in following you back to the Prime material to get rid of them permenantly.

Don't get me wrong, these are good ideas, but no one tactic is unbeatable.

olentu

2010-10-02, 06:45 PM

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.

What happens is that you blow most of your 9th level slots on covering your escape, and then the attacker comes back after you on the same day and you have to think of something else.

Having time stop cast followed by gating in several CR 40 gold dragons, followed by an acid fog or similar is simply not that dangerous. Heck, even the flying dragon-guarded adamantine fortress that's so popular on the optimisation boards isn't particularly dangerous. It's easily evadable, and if the attacker can get away he just comes back later on it the day after the dragons are gone.

Funnier yet is to just leave through the gate that called the dragons, which is left open until the spells ends. And then have a good long talk with those dragons about how you know exactly who keeps on summoning them against their will, and whether they'd be interested in following you back to the Prime material to get rid of them permenantly.

Don't get me wrong, these are good ideas, but no one tactic is unbeatable.

Oh no has no wizard ever had the foresight to make a spell that would allow one to change ones shape as some sort of a contingency plan.

Seriously a flying dragon guarded fortress. Who would waste their money on that.

Also you should probably read the duration line on the gate spell.

elonin

2010-10-02, 06:51 PM

I don't think there was a requirement about being level one, so that may still count.

Stab him while he is sleeping? That way a rogue can kill a wizard. That and crazier things have happened in LARP games.

I've also had a wizard of mine killed by my own laziness. He followed his group into a room then even though he had permanent arcane sight up failed to see the invisible rogue. Horrible dm for not telling me about he man sized illusion magic and then walking the rogue right up in front of me and allowing sneak dice. :smallfurious:

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-02, 06:51 PM

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-02, 11:30 PM

Togo

2010-10-03, 04:40 AM

Oh no has no wizard ever had the foresight to make a spell that would allow one to change ones shape as some sort of a contingency plan.

That was part of Myth' plan, turning into a solar. I don't see how that helps.

Seriously a flying dragon guarded fortress. Who would waste their money on that.

It's one of the more famous tactics on the optimisation boards. I can't say I thought much of it either.

Also you should probably read the duration line on the gate spell.

Good point, the calling variation isn't usefully enough time to slip through. Still, routinely annoying intelligent CR 40 is not a good long-term strategy.

Togo

2010-10-03, 04:49 AM

No, he won't, because since they both go in the surprise round initiative is rolled. The wizard has something like +40 initiative. Then the MoMF dies.

At, getting a plus 40 initiative wasn't part of what you wrote. That's yet more spell slots, I presume? even then, I'd love to know how you got there.

You did get there, right? You're not just assuming it's possible and thus that you've 'somehow' done it?

And how is the wizard going in the surprise round? Remember, I'm attacking him, so is he a Dire tortoise all the time?

I'm happy to join the initiative race and try and win it. I don't think I will, but the spells you invest in making sure I can't can't be used for anything else. I'm also happy to go the rocket resist route and see if you actually can kill my character in a single standard action. I'm thinking not. Particularly not when you're in the form of a creature that can't reasonably go around holding onto to a metamagic rod and keeping it free and available all the time.

It's the practicalities that keep the wizard weaker than it is on paper.

Togo

2010-10-03, 04:57 AM

You still have to get close to the wizard.

EDIT:

A lot of other people have suggested this. Read the rest of the thread to find out why this does not work.

The first suggestion was that he spent his entire life locked in a demiplane created by the Genesis spell. That one got fairly thoroughly flattened by a poster pointing out that there is nothing in the spell description that allows the demiplane to be locked or restricted to the extent needed for the tactic to work. You can argue that the spell doesn't say that you can't create a demiplane that just so happens to be impregnable, since some demi-planes are largely impregnable, but it's still a bit of a stretch.

The second was the high level wizards don't need to sleep. Which may be true, but does nothing to change the requirement of resting for 8 hours. Since none of the tactics so far presented provide 24/7 coverage, sneaking in and killing him in the of hours remains a viable tactic.

In the absence of a reliable RAW method of doing without sleep, you're rather diverging from the OP, which was a tier 1 caster, not a particular Tier 1 caster that has had certain game events happen to him, however reasonable those events might be.

olentu

2010-10-03, 04:59 AM

That was part of Myth' plan, turning into a solar. I don't see how that helps.

It's one of the more famous tactics on the optimisation boards.

Good point, the calling variation isn't usefully enough time to slip through. Still, routinely annoying intelligent CR 40 is not a good long-term strategy.

Try reading it again. I would say more but that would ruin the joke.

A famously silly tactic. Though I am assuming that the fortress is going to be flying around where people can see as it is apparently an easy thing to just walk away from it and come back later.

It depends but to avoid derailing this thread into a morass of opinions on how a DM should run things it is probably best not gotten into.

Edit: By the by though it is not my argument I shall get involved this time since I think I can divine the intent but don't take my word for it. So far as I remember it is not that rules are needed to do without sleep rather that there is no rule saying one must sleep only that they can.

Togo

2010-10-03, 05:08 AM

Try reading it again. I would say more but that would ruin the joke.

Still not getting it.

A famously silly tactic. Though I am assuming that the fortress is going to be flying around where people can see as it is apparently an easy thing to just walk away from it and come back later.

I think the point is that it appears in the surprise round, as part of a Dire tortoise time stop reaction. It is pretty silly though.

Edit: By the by though it is not my argument I shall get involved this time since I think I can divine the intent but don't take my word for it. So far as I remember it is not that rules are needed to do without sleep rather that there is no rule saying one must sleep only that they can.

Sure, but I'm not convinced that you need sleep. Just catch him while he's learing his day's spells from his spellbook.

olentu

2010-10-03, 05:30 AM

Still not getting it.

I think the point is that it appears in the surprise round, as part of a Dire tortoise time stop reaction. It is pretty silly though.

Sure, but I'm not convinced that you need sleep. Just catch him while he's learing his day's spells from his spellbook.

Well I still don't want to ruin it but the answer seems to be the same as what several others are discussing so you will get the answer in the end.

Er if the wizard can arrange for a castle to appear in the surprise round I think he could arrange for himself to just leave in the surprise round. That makes the castle rather superfluous. I suppose whoever came up with the plan had some other stuff related to it but that appears to have been lost in the translation.

Yeah I am going to let this one drop since I was just attempting to clarify I would not wish to usurp the argument from its creator.

Radar

2010-10-03, 06:23 AM

As for the private demiplane: Forbiddance will block anyone from entering this demiplane - probably even a Silver Key.

Here's the trick to not be jailed there yourself: leave a certain spot out of the Forbiddance area and cover it with a big rock, when you are inside or even better set up a Forcecage and Antimagic Field traps there (Anticipate Teleport might be a good idea as well). Have some loyal minions there to either put the traps on hold, when you go back from adventuring or bail you out if you had no time to tell them. Idealy you never leave your demiplane anyway, since there are Simulacra and Astral Projection is just that good. So anyone wanting to break into yout extraplanar stronghold would have to anticipate the moment, when you send someone out of your demiplane or the moment, when one of your simulacra or other minions returns. The thing is, the wizard chooses the moment himself, so he will be prepared and on his own turf.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-03, 09:20 AM

The first suggestion was that he spent his entire life locked in a demiplane created by the Genesis spell. That one got fairly thoroughly flattened by a poster pointing out that there is nothing in the spell description that allows the demiplane to be locked or restricted to the extent needed for the tactic to work. You can argue that the spell doesn't say that you can't create a demiplane that just so happens to be impregnable, since some demi-planes are largely impregnable, but it's still a bit of a stretch.

Se above post. Also look at Tippy's earlier post concerning nested demiplanes.

The second was the high level wizards don't need to sleep. Which may be true, but does nothing to change the requirement of resting for 8 hours. Since none of the tactics so far presented provide 24/7 coverage, sneaking in and killing him in the of hours remains a viable tactic.

In the absence of a reliable RAW method of doing without sleep, you're rather diverging from the OP, which was a tier 1 caster, not a particular Tier 1 caster that has had certain game events happen to him, however reasonable those events might be.

At no point did I say that they did not need sleep or rest; I was simply pointing out that you face most of the same obstacles that you would when he is awake. Alarm-type spells, minions (summoned or constructed), and divinations are all still in play while he sleeps. Even discounting the demiplanes, you'll need to take ten levels in a PrC just to get inside a magnificent mansion spell. That is a steep investment that probably won't increase your chances of beating the wizard once you can actually find him.

This may all seem ridiculous, but you need to look at it from a roleplaying standpoint in addition to a mechanical one. If a wizard knows that somebody is out to kill him (and an Int 27+ person should be able to figure out that pissing other people off will make him a target) and he wants to stay alive (or undead), then it makes sense that he (having 27+ Int and lots of Knowledge skills) would be able to come up with a really good method of avoiding unwanted guests.

Togo

2010-10-03, 05:06 PM

Se above post.

Ok, based on the above post, there isn't any particular bar to getting into the plane except that the access point is covered by a trap, a forcecage or 'a big rock'. All of which are fairly easy to get past.

Just to clarify, can you see how the claim has gone from 'there is no way in' to 'there is a way in but it's guarded by a big rock'?

What if someone puts their own forbiddence over the entrace from the outside? Aren't you trapped?

Also look at Tippy's earlier post concerning nested demiplanes.

Sorry, I couldn't find the right post. It sounds like an interesting idea though.

At no point did I say that they did not need sleep or rest; I was simply pointing out that you face most of the same obstacles that you would when he is awake. Alarm-type spells, minions (summoned or constructed), and divinations are all still in play while he sleeps.

True. I never made great claims for attacking while sleeping either. The advantage to attacking during the rest period is that it messes up the spell slot economy. Any spell you use during such a period can not be regained unless yet more rest is taken. Moreover if you can't assume the caster is safe at some times during the day, then you need to extend the buffs you're relying on even more, and dedicate even more spells per day to maintaining a routine defense.

Even discounting the demiplanes, you'll need to take ten levels in a PrC just to get inside a magnificent mansion spell. That is a steep investment that probably won't increase your chances of beating the wizard once you can actually find him.

You don't go into a magnificent mansion, you pop the entrance into a portable hole, chuck a bag of holding in after it, and suck the entire extra-dimensional space out of known space.

Or just ambush him when he comes out.

This may all seem ridiculous, but you need to look at it from a roleplaying standpoint in addition to a mechanical one. If a wizard knows that somebody is out to kill him (and an Int 27+ person should be able to figure out that pissing other people off will make him a target) and he wants to stay alive (or undead), then it makes sense that he (having 27+ Int and lots of Knowledge skills) would be able to come up with a really good method of avoiding unwanted guests.

Sure, but from the same roleplaying standpoint, most people wanting to kill a level 20 character are going to fail. You're positing that a tier 1 caster, by definition of the type of class he is, would have a series of precautions up as routine that would not only make a paranoid giggle, but would seriously cut back on his day-to-day capabilities. This guy is, by my calculations, using most of his wealth per level, most of his 9th and 8th level spell slots, and most of his time every day, just to prove that he's sufficiently powerful enough that he doesn't need to worry about people trying to kill him. Even then, he's not really made it. Is that even vaguely plausible, from a role-playing standpoint, for not just a particular tier 1 caster, but for tier 1 casters in general?

I mean let's face it, if you played this guy as a member of an adventuring party, you'd be well under par. Most wizards run out spells sooner or later, and most adventurers make themselves vulnerable regularly in the course of their adventures. Yes, if you spend all your character's resources on setting up defences and counter-measures, then you'll be much safer than if you don't. But tier 1 casters don't necessarily do this, and certainly don't do it the extent that you describe, because that diverts resources away from being active and useful in the campaign world.

My wife played a spymaster who couldn't be detected, couldn't be divined for, and had a safe haven where she rested as a stone, inside another stone, inside an antimagic sphere. That doesn't mean all spymasters are equally hard to kill.

Hackulator

2010-10-03, 05:24 PM

One big problem in this thread is, someone comes up with a way to beat a tier 1 caster, and someone else says "oh but he could be doing this to stop that." He could be, but he can't be doing everything to stop every idea in here. A wizard can counter anything, but he can't counter everything.

Also antimagic shackles? Something with reach, mage slayer, and a lot of hide?

But yeah, if you wizard is a psychotic paranoid who doesn't care about any sort of enjoyable life and all he does all day long is make sure he's safe, you probably can't kill him. Hell, you probably have no idea he even exists since he's always invisible and teleporting and sending summoned or created crap to do his bidding.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-03, 05:40 PM

Ok, based on the above post, there isn't any particular bar to getting into the plane except that the access point is covered by a trap, a forcecage or 'a big rock'. All of which are fairly easy to get past.

That depends largely upon the creativity of the trap. What about a few permanent prismatic walls over the entrance? What if these are in turn surrounded by permanent walls of force? And I'm sure other people could come up with something better.

Just to clarify, can you see how the claim has gone from 'there is no way in' to 'there is a way in but it's guarded by a big rock'?

What if someone puts their own forbiddence over the entrace from the outside? Aren't you trapped?

To the first part, the rock is just a basic deterrent. To the second, sadly, I'm not really sure how that works. My knowledge of demiplanes is admittedly limited (mostly to what has been said on this thread), and the SRD is really vague on all of that.

Sorry, I couldn't find the right post. It sounds like an interesting idea though.

Here it is:

Your best bet for doing something like that is probably to make use of nested demiplanes that can only be entered from a portal on another demiplane. You can potentially create a maze of hundreds of interconnected planes with only a single specific route through to your final plane. One good trick is to create a stasis plane (1 round is a hundred thousand years to the rest of the universe) that applies to everyone but you. When your enemies come to get you, you have a very long time to prepare to meet them.

Note that their is nothing stopping you from making a strongly negatively (or positively) aligned, dead magic plane with but two 5 foot squares that aren't filled with solid adamantium (right infront of the entry and exit portals) where you are the only one capable of using magic.

True. I never made great claims for attacking while sleeping either. The advantage to attacking during the rest period is that it messes up the spell slot economy. Any spell you use during such a period can not be regained unless yet more rest is taken. Moreover if you can't assume the caster is safe at some times during the day, then you need to extend the buffs you're relying on even more, and dedicate even more spells per day to maintaining a routine defense.

A simple alarm spell or cheap item that duplicates the effect works wonders, and don't forget that your familiar can also serve as an incredibly effective lookout. Given that a wizard would probably snooze at home on his demiplane, it would be fairly simple to rig some wards, traps, and alarms over the entrance/exit area.

You don't go into a magnificent mansion, you pop the entrance into a portable hole, chuck a bag of holding in after it, and suck the entire extra-dimensional space out of known space.

Or just ambush him when he comes out.

I'm pretty sure that you can't put the entrance to an extradimensional space inside a portable hole. You could put the portable hole outside the entrance, and hope he falls into it, I guess (assuming no overland flight). Even if it did work, the wizard ends up in the astral plane, which isn't really that big a deal.

As for ambushing, you still have to deal with extended foresight and dire tortoise.

Stuff about spell slots.

A high-level wizard can usually finish up his adventuring day in an incredibly short amount of time. Thus, he only needs to expend a few spell slots one things such as foresight and mind blank before he pops home to his comfy magnificent mansion in his demiplane. Even as part of a party, he can just bring his buddies home with him, and then he also has other high-level adventurers watching his back. I think you just made it harder, if anything.

The Shadowmind

2010-10-03, 06:48 PM

So provided the wizard still has the sleep, then my PsiWar, Factotum, Shadowcaster/Beguiler+Spell thief+Clockwork horror horde, has had the best chance to work?

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-03, 08:36 PM

So provided the wizard still has the sleep, then my PsiWar, Factotum, Shadowcaster/Beguiler+Spell thief+Clockwork horror horde, has had the best chance to work?

Quite probably. My experience with shadowcasting and psionics are even more limited than my understanding of the genesis spell, so I let others figure this one out.

I think it would be fun to see some opt-fu go on and run a one-shot where the goal was to kill this wizard.

Togo

2010-10-04, 01:43 AM

Quite probably. My experience with shadowcasting and psionics are even more limited than my understanding of the genesis spell, so I let others figure this one out.

I think it would be fun to see some opt-fu go on and run a one-shot where the goal was to kill this wizard.

I'd be up for that.

Earthwalker

2010-10-04, 03:25 AM

With the level of paranoia this lvl 20 wizard seems to be demonstrating (one contingency with 20 crafted ones as back up, his own demi plane he traps and has summoned creatures to watch contstantly, premenant spells to keep himself safe… etc)

For my entry I present a group of lvl 5 adventurers. A bard, fighter, thief, sorc and cleric. They get hired to start and confirm rumors in the world. As a small confidence team they get involved in crafting small cons fooling people into believing facts about magic that simply aren’t true. It takes work but they are usualy messing with wizards only a few levels above them, making it appear spells are going crazy then spreading the rumors.

Simple summonings that turn on their masters. Rope tricks and Mansions getting flung into the void with the casters never returning.

Now the plan here is simple just to drive the wizard in question over the edge, from the sounds of things he is already acting as nutty as a fruit cake.
Given enough time and effort making him more paranoid, the next step is getting him to trust the group. If they come up with potions that make the magic safe again how long before this lvl 20 is killing them to get the potions, or maybe even buying them off them.

Clearly my rules fu is very poor, but surly you can set up a con like this and hopfully get the wizard to start doubting his spells.

Myth

2010-10-04, 07:39 AM

Master of Many Forms wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise disguised as something else, will go before a wizard. He readies an action to disrupt the casting of time stop, and then goes first in the following full round. All of a sudden you've lost the game of rocket tag.

What happens is that you blow most of your 9th level slots on covering your escape, and then the attacker comes back after you on the same day and you have to think of something else.

Having time stop cast followed by gating in several CR 40 gold dragons, followed by an acid fog or similar is simply not that dangerous. Heck, even the flying dragon-guarded adamantine fortress that's so popular on the optimisation boards isn't particularly dangerous. It's easily evadable, and if the attacker can get away he just comes back later on it the day after the dragons are gone.

Funnier yet is to just leave through the gate that called the dragons, which is left open until the spells ends. And then have a good long talk with those dragons about how you know exactly who keeps on summoning them against their will, and whether they'd be interested in following you back to the Prime material to get rid of them permenantly.

Don't get me wrong, these are good ideas, but no one tactic is unbeatable.

That was just one of many ways to kill a character. He can DD you so you can't TP away, and then have the Dragons feast on your tender flesh. He could reverse gravity+Gate you to the Positive Energy Plane if you lack flight. He can Wish you dead within the Timestop, asking for the wish to take effect several rounds later. He can Shapechange (free action for a Persisted Shapechange for Incantatrix) in to a Choker and hit you with a Disjunction + Twinned Repeat Empowered Maximized Enervation (done with Incantatrix also). If you point me to your specific build (or post it) we can do a round by round comparison. While a non-caster class can be optimized to be really darn hard to kill in a standard action, a Wizard/Incantatrix will be near-impossible due to Contingencies and persisted buffs.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-04, 10:19 AM

Tehnar

2010-10-04, 10:22 AM

That was just one of many ways to kill a character. He can DD you so you can't TP away, and then have the Dragons feast on your tender flesh. He could reverse gravity+Gate you to the Positive Energy Plane if you lack flight. He can Wish you dead within the Timestop, asking for the wish to take effect several rounds later. He can Shapechange (free action for a Persisted Shapechange for Incantatrix) in to a Choker and hit you with a Disjunction + Twinned Repeat Empowered Maximized Enervation (done with Incantatrix also). If you point me to your specific build (or post it) we can do a round by round comparison. While a non-caster class can be optimized to be really darn hard to kill in a standard action, a Wizard/Incantatrix will be near-impossible due to Contingencies and persisted buffs.

I see several problems with this. A well built defensive character will have touch AC in the mid 50's, and saves across the board in the mid 40's, at least. Mettle and evasion are also assumed as is a constant flight, freedom of movement, death ward and energy immunity like effects.

So even with true strike cast, a wizard will have a problem hitting the brick with any ray's, disjunction won't disenchant any magic items and enervation won't do anything at all.

Of course such a character probably won't be able to kill the wizard in one round. Thus the wizard can easily escape and come back another day.

This is of course assuming no infinite loops, cheese, liberal interpretation of spell effects, etc.

Myth

2010-10-04, 10:56 AM

I see several problems with this. A well built defensive character will have touch AC in the mid 50's, and saves across the board in the mid 40's, at least. Mettle and evasion are also assumed as is a constant flight, freedom of movement, death ward and energy immunity like effects. Disjunction.

So even with true strike cast, a wizard will have a problem hitting the brick with any ray's, disjunction won't disenchant any magic items and enervation won't do anything at all. Why not? Last time I checked non-caster classes can't make will saves reliably vs 9th level spells.

Of course such a character probably won't be able to kill the wizard in one round. Thus the wizard can easily escape and come back another day. Or just kill him slower with lower level spells like Unluck, Cloudkull, Shivering Touch, Irresistable Dance, Touch of Idiocy, Ray of Stupidity, so on and so forth. And he can say "No" to your attacks with Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Ironguard, Indomitably and Shapechanging into things you can't kill with your current gear because of their type or DR or regen or whatever.

This is of course assuming no infinite loops, cheese, liberal interpretation of spell effects, etc. Aye, i've already said this to be within the limits of reason and RAI.

I could stat up a level 20 Wizard with PrCs etc. but it wold be hypocritical of me, as i asked for Incantatrix advice but a few months ago. There are far better players here then myself who would do a far better job at optimizing/spell selection and perhaps combat as well. If no one else steps up i'll do it though.

Eldariel

2010-10-04, 11:12 AM

I see several problems with this. A well built defensive character will have touch AC in the mid 50's, and saves across the board in the mid 40's, at least. Mettle and evasion are also assumed as is a constant flight, freedom of movement, death ward and energy immunity like effects.

So even with true strike cast, a wizard will have a problem hitting the brick with any ray's, disjunction won't disenchant any magic items and enervation won't do anything at all.

Of course such a character probably won't be able to kill the wizard in one round. Thus the wizard can easily escape and come back another day.

This is of course assuming no infinite loops, cheese, liberal interpretation of spell effects, etc.

Generally Dispels make that a non-issue (just simple chained dispel to go through all the target's items and constant buffs; it's hard to get 50 Touch AC without magic items or magical buffs), or Shapechange (it's easy to get +70 to hit with buff stacking if you really care).

Not to mention stuff like Maw of Chaos that hits and deals lots of damage, no questions asked. Simple Time Stop > Maximized Maw of Chaos > Maximized Maw of Chaos > Maximized Maw of Chaos (with Rod) is ~360 points of damage that can't be stopped without invulnerability comboes. Trust me, we had a fight between Mage and 3 Mage Slayers long ago; I was playing a Mage Slayer and that's more or less what I died to. Can't interrupt actions during Time Stop. And yes, we had our defenses covered.

Radar

2010-10-04, 11:21 AM

(...)
I find it unlikely. All the wizards in the world have the ability to test the magic (or ask the deities - directly or through some friendly cleric), so such a ploy might be night impossible to pull off. Secondly, if you actually manage to fool the wizard and make him want your potion, he can just scry & steal it (divination followed by Wish spell to teleport an object). He might even Wish directly for such a potion - it would be well within the "safe usage" boundaries.

Imagine a group of people trying to fool all scientists in the world, that the gravity is beginning to be unreliable.

Earthwalker

2010-10-04, 02:05 PM

I find it unlikely. All the wizards in the world have the ability to test the magic (or ask the deities - directly or through some friendly cleric), so such a ploy might be night impossible to pull off. Secondly, if you actually manage to fool the wizard and make him want your potion, he can just scry & steal it (divination followed by Wish spell to teleport an object). He might even Wish directly for such a potion - it would be well within the "safe usage" boundaries.

Imagine a group of people trying to fool all scientists in the world, that the gravity is beginning to be unreliable.

I see what you are saying. I was hoping that the amount of preperation and how much time and effort this wizard seems to put into his safety that he appears to be close to the edge and it wouldn't take much to push him over.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-04, 02:18 PM

I see what you are saying. I was hoping that the amount of preperation and how much time and effort this wizard seems to put into his safety that he appears to be close to the edge and it wouldn't take much to push him over.

It would be difficult to convince him that his magic is failing when his own constant (and successful) uses of magic are the thing keeping him alive. He might be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

Earthwalker

2010-10-04, 02:33 PM

It would be difficult to convince him that his magic is failing when his own constant (and successful) uses of magic are the thing keeping him alive. He might be crazy, but he isn't stupid.

Yep it would be difficult I was trying to think of a way not involving lots of rules I don't know and that might make a good campaign for some players running cons.

Of course in real life and DnD you can be as clever as you like that doesn't mean you can't be fooled or conned. In real life plenty of clever people have personality weaknesses. In DnD 40 int doesnt help against being conned if you have 12 wis and no sense motive.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-04, 02:51 PM

Yep it would be difficult I was trying to think of a way not involving lots of rules I don't know and that might make a good campaign for some players running cons.

Of course in real life and DnD you can be as clever as you like that doesn't mean you can't be fooled or conned. In real life plenty of clever people have personality weaknesses. In DnD 40 int doesnt help against being conned if you have 12 wis and no sense motive.

But when the success of the con hinges entirely on somebody essentially saying, "Hey, despite what years of empirical evidence telling you otherwise, your magic doesn't work. Because we figured it out, you can trust us. Here, drink this potion that totally isn't poison. Oh, and don't bother using any of your spells to check if we're lying or not, because they don't work, remember?" and the wizard believing it, I think your con needs a little bit of work.

Earthwalker

2010-10-04, 03:01 PM

But when the success of the con hinges entirely on somebody essentially saying, "Hey, despite what years of empirical evidence telling you otherwise, your magic doesn't work. Because we figured it out, you can trust us. Here, drink this potion that totally isn't poison. Oh, and don't bother using any of your spells to check if we're lying or not, because they don't work, remember?" and the wizard believing it, I think your con needs a little bit of work.

You are right the con needs alot more work.
on the con mens side of things in most world I play in (I have to say that as I aren't sure how magic is viewed in all your worlds) Magic is not a completely known quantity. Things like anti magic zones and where the power itself comes from is still under study.
It is in fact not science it is magic.
The wizard himself does not own a DnD rule book and does not know how all the rules of the world works (tho he knows alot fo them with high knowledge skills). Some spells do have variable effects its would take alot of work. The idea of handing out posion was all I could think of off the top of my head and its a poor choice, perhaps there is something better.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-04, 03:14 PM

This really all depends what you call a Tier 1, to be honest.

And no, con men wouldn't be able to kill a wizard with poison. Poison is a laughable joke and isn't even a real threat.

Togo

2010-10-04, 03:22 PM

I did say 'use a rocket proof build'.

That was just one of many ways to kill a character. He can DD you so you can't TP away, and then have the Dragons feast on your tender flesh.

Don't need to teleport to avoid dragons. Just run away and try again later in the same day.

He could reverse gravity+Gate you to the Positive Energy Plane if you lack flight.

I have flight. Positive energy plane isn't all that dangerous. Most high level characters could literally pop in for lunch, and then saunter out again.

He can Wish you dead within the Timestop, asking for the wish to take effect several rounds later.

No, I don't think he can. That's well beyond the parameters given for wish, unless you're duplicating a particular 8th level spell.

He can Shapechange (free action for a Persisted Shapechange for Incantatrix) in to a Choker and hit you with a Disjunction + Twinned Repeat Empowered Maximized Enervation (done with Incantatrix also).

You need to hit, and I need to fail saves, neither of which is likely. You'd be better off shapechanging into something with a good chance of hitting and choose either one or the other.

If you point me to your specific build (or post it) we can do a round by round comparison. While a non-caster class can be optimized to be really darn hard to kill in a standard action, a Wizard/Incantatrix will be near-impossible due to Contingencies and persisted buffs.

Possibly. However, with the tactics your referring to, the tier 1 caster has to decide what to cast in the first round before knowing what he's up against. Since you're casting timestop followed by a flurry of spells, it means you're basically committing to a particular tactic early on in the fight, and will suffer more if you choose something that happens to be ineffect against a particular attacker. Meanwhile, the attacker can and will customise his equipment, tactics, and so on to deal with what he knows of the target. "Don't forget the dragon repellent sir!"

So it would be more appropriate for you to come up with a specific build first, and then have other people try to kill it. Or we could go for an actual run through.

Or just kill him slower with lower level spells like Unluck, Cloudkull, Shivering Touch, Irresistable Dance, Touch of Idiocy, Ray of Stupidity, so on and so forth.

Can make save, immunity to poison is easy to get, need to hit (x4)

These are all excellent suggestions, but none of them are sure things.

And he can say "No" to your attacks with Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Ironguard, Indomitably and Shapechanging into things you can't kill with your current gear because of their type or DR or regen or whatever.

Again, excellent suggestions, but these are all counters to particular attack style. Which one are you going to use against an unknown opponent?

The wizard has a great variety of options, enough to cover almost everything. But he can't keep all those options open - he has to commit himself. If he's by himself, he has to commit himself early on. If he's wrong, he may not get another chance.

Gametime

2010-10-04, 03:31 PM

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-04, 03:32 PM

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-04, 03:36 PM

To be fair, optimized Bluff or Diplomacy can be pretty difficult to defend against. A 5th level character couldn't pull it off, but a 20th level could.

Diplomacy is considered Mind Affecting. The wizard has Mind Blank.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-04, 03:39 PM

To be fair, optimized Bluff or Diplomacy can be pretty difficult to defend against. A 5th level character couldn't pull it off, but a 20th level could.

Yeah, but with the gentlemen's agreement that none of the blatantly broken stuff is permitted, I think the wizard is safe from these two things, at least in this scenario.

Gametime

2010-10-04, 04:08 PM

Diplomacy is considered Mind Affecting. The wizard has Mind Blank.

Do you mean it's considered such for the purposes of this exercise, or in general? If the former, I must have missed that.

Togo

2010-10-04, 04:19 PM

Killing a tier I is mostly dependent upon 1 thing: "how open are the wizard's options?"

If you go with "anything except being Pun-Pun" then you run into wizards doing things like casting [epic] spells before level 21, running around with NI spells, NI spell DC's, arbitrary caster levels, arbitrary numbers of actions per round, having epic mythals on their person granting obscene powers, etc.

Yes, but with that level of abuse allowed, you have non-tier 1 casters doing the same thing. Including running around casting [epic] spells before level 21. In which case the fact of being a tier 1 caster becomes irrelevant.

Heck, I got into a wonderful discussion about how to kill Pun-Pun*. He's tough, but nothing is invulnerable.

Diplomacy is considered Mind Affecting. The wizard has Mind Blank.

<frown> Diplomacy is not a spell or effect.

As it is, we're trying to avoid the really cheesy stuff, although I suspect we will at some point have to work out where to draw the line. I'm sure we've altready been considering things that would be broken by some people, and I'd certainly expect many of my ideas to be disallowed in an actual campaign.

*The four approaches we came up with broadly being SLAP, time travel, destroying whatever section of the universe Pun-Pun inhabits, and using campaign-specific material that is actually of infinite power.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-04, 04:22 PM

Do you mean it's considered such for the purposes of this exercise, or in general? If the former, I must have missed that.

In general. At least, the goal of the diplomacy check is considered so, since unless you can make the wizard fanatical I really don't think you can consider it a victory.

From the SRD:
"Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill."

I suppose it could be debatable.

However, usually these exercises assume that you're treating both participants as PC's, and PC's are immune to diplomacy checks.

Myth

2010-10-04, 06:04 PM

I did say 'use a rocket proof build'.
I'm not familiar with this term, I'm sorry. What i know is that Foresight>Celerity is damn impossible to beat, and it's still unclear that (the only way proposed to beat it) immunity to Divination is in fact, effective against Foresight.

Don't need to teleport to avoid dragons. Just run away and try again later in the same day. But they can follow. 200 fly speed. They can cast Wall of Stone as well. The Wizard has mobility spells at his disposal, such as Haste, Phantom Steed, Greater Teleport etc. I'm curious how exactly are you planning on running away.

I have flight. Positive energy plane isn't all that dangerous. Most high level characters could literally pop in for lunch, and then saunter out again.You have natural flight? Otherwise it's going to get fried by the Disjunction. Substitute the PEP with Demogorgon's layr of the Abyss then. Have fun swimming with the Aboleths. The possibilities are numerous.

No, I don't think he can. That's well beyond the parameters given for wish, unless you're duplicating a particular 8th level spell. He could burn XP to go above the defined parameters, but since that requires DM approval i'll lay off. But it is within the RAI for Wish.

You need to hit, and I need to fail saves, neither of which is likely. You'd be better off shapechanging into something with a good chance of hitting and choose either one or the other.Um... What? OK the term "hit" is used as in "I cast Disjunctio (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesdisjunction.htm)n, your magic goes *poof*" The spell requires no ranged, touch or other type of attack. It's an AOE burst effect. Assuming an 18 starting INT + 6 item + 5 tome = 29 Int, DC will be 10+9+9=28. So a 28 Will save for each magical item and effect on your person. Good luck with that. The Shapechange in to a Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) is so i can get an extra Standard action. I'm not using it to attack you in melee. That standard action means that, after i've fried every piece of magic on your person, I proceed to ray you in to oblivion. Or Imprison you. Whatever.

Possibly. However, with the tactics your referring to, the tier 1 caster has to decide what to cast in the first round before knowing what he's up against. Since you're casting timestop followed by a flurry of spells, it means you're basically committing to a particular tactic early on in the fight, and will suffer more if you choose something that happens to be ineffect against a particular attacker. Meanwhile, the attacker can and will customise his equipment, tactics, and so on to deal with what he knows of the target. "Don't forget the dragon repellent sir!"That is not fair. Either we both do it in the dark, or we both look at each other's builds and adjust ad infinitum. You can't assume knowledge on a level 20 Wizard, that's just not a common commodity. And with an "everyday" build, you'll not survive past the first round out of Timestop, because the Wizard can throw so many things you just can't prepare for all of them.

So it would be more appropriate for you to come up with a specific build first, and then have other people try to kill it. Or we could go for an actual run through.I'll make the build but won't post the spells or items before the actual fight. Unless you can show me a specific indisputable way by which you will obtain that info.

Can make save, immunity to poison is easy to get, need to hit (x4) Unluck and Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibledance.htm) are no-save-just-lose spells. There's a lot more where that came from. All the ray spells don't allow a save either, you should really read up on your spell descriptions. I can hit you with rays of exastion powered by some metamagic and finish you of with a metamagicked Shivering Touch that does Dex damage. All these are rays, i can squeeze them in one round via rods and metamagic. Without ray deflection (which you won't have since i've disjnoined your stuff) you die.

These are all excellent suggestions, but none of them are sure things. After frying your gear and hitting you with stuff that allows for no save or having the Dragons grapple you and eating your brain as a shapechanged Illithid the Wizard will disagree.

Again, excellent suggestions, but these are all counters to particular attack style. Which one are you going to use against an unknown opponent?95% of them. You seem to think Wizards get a few spells to prepare. At 20th level, between Wands, Scrolls (lots of them), Pearls of Power and Specialization they get so much stuff you will never win a war of attrition. A Wizard can kill you with 5th level spell slots just as badly as with 8th level. Especially if that's an Incantatrix with Easy Metamagic.

The wizard has a great variety of options, enough to cover almost everything. But he can't keep all those options open - he has to commit himself. If he's by himself, he has to commit himself early on. If he's wrong, he may not get another chance.The Wizard has his options. Then he has his backup options (contingencies). Then he has his oh-SHI options (scrolls of Wish, 9th level Pearls of Power etc.), then he has his items for 20th WBL like Rods of Quicken, Maximize, Empower etc. Commiting himself means going mini-nova (lol) in the Time Stop round. You still have to deal with (if you survive that is) a lot of lower level spells that are very, very broken as well. Tell me how you deal with Irresistabel Dance + Arcane Reach from Archmage? Just one example btw.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-04, 07:15 PM

Saves, AC, all that is pointless when the wizard does something like Plane Shift to extremely hostile plane, Gate you to the plane, and plane shift himself away. This is assuming you aren't some kind of spellcaster or psionic that can plane shift, of course, but if you are, then you're on an equal tier to the caster.

Unless you possess some method of planar travel, you simply die from the effects of the hostile plane, no save. You simply lose in the face of awesome.

Gametime

2010-10-04, 08:12 PM

In general. At least, the goal of the diplomacy check is considered so, since unless you can make the wizard fanatical I really don't think you can consider it a victory.

From the SRD:
"Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill."

I suppose it could be debatable.

However, usually these exercises assume that you're treating both participants as PC's, and PC's are immune to diplomacy checks.

The fanatic attitude is mind-affecting. Other levels of diplomacy aren't, or at least I can't find any references to them being mind-affecting. It's true that making a level 20 wizard helpful doesn't count as killing him, but if we're going with the broader goal of defeating the wizard it's a darn good start.

Assuming the wizard is a PC, diplomacy is obviously a no-go, but Bluff still works. It doesn't kill the wizard on its own (obviously), but it can be used to bypass a fair number of defenses and set up some decent shots at taking the wizard out.

Of course, a sufficiently paranoid wizard doesn't have any social interactions using his own body anyway, so you'd probably have to enact some highly improbable scheme involving befriending the wizard in Astral Projection Form, getting him to reveal the location of his demiplane, getting him to let you in to his demiplane, and then killing him. So the odds still aren't what you'd call good.

Tehnar

2010-10-05, 03:31 AM

Generally Dispels make that a non-issue (just simple chained dispel to go through all the target's items and constant buffs; it's hard to get 50 Touch AC without magic items or magical buffs), or Shapechange (it's easy to get +70 to hit with buff stacking if you really care).

Not to mention stuff like Maw of Chaos that hits and deals lots of damage, no questions asked. Simple Time Stop > Maximized Maw of Chaos > Maximized Maw of Chaos > Maximized Maw of Chaos (with Rod) is ~360 points of damage that can't be stopped without invulnerability comboes. Trust me, we had a fight between Mage and 3 Mage Slayers long ago; I was playing a Mage Slayer and that's more or less what I died to. Can't interrupt actions during Time Stop. And yes, we had our defenses covered.

Unfortunately that is true; dispel really rips through your items, even those made at CL 20. Theoretically you could have robes/gloves that block LOE to your magic items, but I find that pretty cheesy.

I wonder if there is a easy way to get a chaotic subtype though.

hamishspence

2010-10-05, 04:11 AM

I wonder if there is a easy way to get a chaotic subtype though.

Savage Species has a fairly low level ritual that can grant you a subtype.

If you pass a will save by 5 or more- your alignment does not change to match the subtype.

If your own alignment is directly opposed to the subtype you want- there is a risk that the ritual will kill you though.

Adumbration

2010-10-05, 04:17 AM

I wonder if there is a easy way to get a chaotic subtype though.

I'm away from books, so I can't confirm but FC II has (IIRC) some feat that deals with such things.

hamishspence

2010-10-05, 04:25 AM

Tehnar

2010-10-05, 05:53 AM

The ritual in Savage Species should work. Not exactly a cost effective way to make one immune to Maw of Chaos, but it works.

Adumbration

2010-10-05, 09:05 AM

FC2's speciality is devils- which are Lawful.

FC1 has an array of chaotic feats (I think if you take more than one your alignment changes to Chaotic) but I'm not sure if any grant the Chaotic subtype.

Jeah, FC II, feat Ordered Chaos. Makes you keyed to chaotic alignment for the purpose of spells and other effects, making you immune to Word of Chaos and Chaos hammer etc.

Tehnar

2010-10-05, 10:45 AM

Not sure that would protect you from a Maw of Chaos though.

hamishspence

2010-10-05, 10:50 AM

yes, "Counts as chaotic aligned" is not quite the same thing as "has the Chaotic subtype".

Togo

2010-10-05, 04:03 PM

I'm not familiar with this term, I'm sorry. What i know is that Foresight>Celerity is damn impossible to beat, and it's still unclear that (the only way proposed to beat it) immunity to Divination is in fact, effective against Foresight.

Oh, 'Rocket tag' is the idea that the first person to have an attack round wins, so the focus is on winning initiative. A rocket proof or rocket resistant build, rather than beat initiative, focuses on surviving attacks, or at least the first few.

But they can follow. 200 fly speed. They can cast Wall of Stone as well. The Wizard has mobility spells at his disposal, such as Haste, Phantom Steed, Greater Teleport etc. I'm curious how exactly are you planning on running away. You have natural flight? Otherwise it's going to get fried by the Disjunction. Substitute the PEP with Demogorgon's layr of the Abyss then. Have fun swimming with the Aboleths. The possibilities are numerous.

Let's go through it step by step, and you can find out.

He could burn XP to go above the defined parameters, but since that requires DM approval i'll lay off. But it is within the RAI for Wish.

Not according to my PHB. You can't get a bigger effect by burning xp, you can get a bigger effect by actively inviting the DM to screw you over. Not something a paranoid wizard would attempt. Not twice anyway.

Um... What? OK the term "hit" is used as in "I cast Disjunctio (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesdisjunction.htm)n, your magic goes *poof*" The spell requires no ranged, touch or other type of attack. It's an AOE burst effect. Assuming an 18 starting INT + 6 item + 5 tome = 29 Int, DC will be 10+9+9=28. So a 28 Will save for each magical item and effect on your person. Good luck with that. The Shapechange in to a Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) is so i can get an extra Standard action. I'm not using it to attack you in melee. That standard action means that, after i've fried every piece of magic on your person, I proceed to ray you in to oblivion. Or Imprison you. Whatever.

Try it and we'll see. I'm not invulnerable, noone is, but I think I've got a decent chance.

That is not fair. Either we both do it in the dark, or we both look at each other's builds and adjust ad infinitum. You can't assume knowledge on a level 20 Wizard, that's just not a common commodity. And with an "everyday" build, you'll not survive past the first round out of Timestop, because the Wizard can throw so many things you just can't prepare for all of them.

Of course it's not fair. We've set up a situation where the tier 1 caster is all alone and being attacked by a high level character. Why would it be fair?

I'll make the build but won't post the spells or items before the actual fight. Unless you can show me a specific indisputable way by which you will obtain that info.

Pay for the sevices of a high level bard? It won't get the spells you've learned today, but it would get the effects you've come up with in the past, so some idea of what is in the spell book, some major items, tactics you've used in the past, etc.

If you're 20th level, you have a history.

I'm happy to trust you on the build if you trust me on mine. Don't forget to pay list price for every spell in the book though. We both have ways of exploiting wealth per level to get free spells or cheap stuff, but that's a whole different contest.

Unluck and Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibledance.htm) are no-save-just-lose spells. There's a lot more where that came from. All the ray spells don't allow a save either, you should really read up on your spell descriptions. I can hit you with rays of exastion powered by some metamagic and finish you of with a metamagicked Shivering Touch that does Dex damage. All these are rays, i can squeeze them in one round via rods and metamagic. Without ray deflection (which you won't have since i've disjnoined your stuff) you die.

If you can hit, sure.

The Wizard has his options. Then he has his backup options (contingencies). Then he has his oh-SHI options (scrolls of Wish, 9th level Pearls of Power etc.), then he has his items for 20th WBL like Rods of Quicken, Maximize, Empower etc. Commiting himself means going mini-nova (lol) in the Time Stop round. You still have to deal with (if you survive that is) a lot of lower level spells that are very, very broken as well. Tell me how you deal with Irresistabel Dance + Arcane Reach from Archmage? Just one example btw.

Well, there's having a high touch AC, there's being hard to see/find, and there's immunity to mind effects. Just as an example, an undead rogue would just laugh off such an attack.

I'll sort out a build over the next few days, and we can try describing what we think would happen. Maybe you'll surprise me.

It may end up being difficult to model aspects, but I'm curious as to what you come up with.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-05, 04:23 PM

Just a comment:
List price on spells is 50 gp x Spell Level, not the price of scrolls.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-05, 04:36 PM

Of course it's not fair. We've set up a situation where the tier 1 caster is all alone and being attacked by a high level character. Why would it be fair?

Pay for the sevices of a high level bard? It won't get the spells you've learned today, but it would get the effects you've come up with in the past, so some idea of what is in the spell book, some major items, tactics you've used in the past, etc.

Setting up a situation that is skewed toward the attacker isn't a very good way to prove that the Tier-1 can be easily killed. That being said, I suppose your method of finding out would be reasonable, but keep in mind that the wizard can do the same thing.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-05, 04:38 PM

Has this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Coreonly_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20?post_id=3384 25214#338425214) come up, yet?

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-05, 08:46 PM

Maybe we should PM Lycanthromancer and see if he'll be the wizard, as he clearly knows what he's doing. It would make it more interesting than anything I could think of, anyway.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-05, 09:49 PM

Maybe we should PM Lycanthromancer and see if he'll be the wizard, as he clearly knows what he's doing. It would make it more interesting than anything I could think of, anyway.

That's not going to work, unless he's lurking around here on another handle.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-05, 09:54 PM

That's not going to work, unless he's lurking around here on another handle.

Oh. Bummer.

Lans

2010-10-06, 03:12 PM

I think making things out of riverine provides some protection against MDJ

Togo

2010-10-06, 06:39 PM

Setting up a situation that is skewed toward the attacker isn't a very good way to prove that the Tier-1 can be easily killed.

Tier-1 caster. Not Tier-1. I reserve the right to use Tier-1 character levels if I need to so long as the end result is not a Tier-1 caster.

That being said, I suppose your method of finding out would be reasonable, but keep in mind that the wizard can do the same thing.

Well, it all comes to down to what we're trying to work out. I've no doubt that a wizard excels at running away, and at operating from extra-planar locations. So if the tactic involves variations on running away or not turning up at all (send in a projection and stay at home), then I'm not sure that we've proved anything useful. Similarly, I think a wizard surprised while asleep isn't terribly useful to prove anything either.

My point is three-fold. The first is that the wizard's power rests at a least partly on variability and flexibilty. This makes a wizard very powerful, but not all flexbile characters are wizards. A lot comes down to how you play, and most of the discussions I've seen on this subject are about a wizard beating a single-tactic optimisation player, or people talking about unbeatable tactics. No tactic is unbeatable.

The second is that a wizard is very good in theory. In practice, you actually have to commit to a particular tactic on what is usally limited information, and if you get it wrong, you may die. The more heavily you invest in an particular tactic, the more likely you are to get it wrong. I feel that people talking about unbeatable round 1 takedowns are missing the point about why the wizard is powerful.

The third is, hey, I have some ideas, I want to try them out. If you know they're coming, they're easy to defend against.

ArcanistSupreme

2010-10-06, 06:56 PM

Tier-1 caster. Not Tier-1. I reserve the right to use Tier-1 character levels if I need to so long as the end result is not a Tier-1 caster.

I guess that's fair. But how you will be able get Tier-1 effects without being a caster will be interesting.

The third is, hey, I have some ideas, I want to try them out. If you know they're coming, they're easy to defend against.

Of course. I was simply pointing out that the wizard could use tactics similar to yours to scout your build.

Togo

2010-10-07, 04:06 PM

I guess that's fair. But how you will be able get Tier-1 effects without being a caster will be interesting.

I've only a loose idea of what Tier-1 means, i'm afraid. I've not seen it used outside this board and it's affiliates.

This hobby is a lot bigger than most people seem to think.

BeholderSlayer

2010-10-07, 04:31 PM

I've only a loose idea of what Tier-1 means, i'm afraid. I've not seen it used outside this board and it's affiliates.

This hobby is a lot bigger than most people seem to think.

The tier system is outlined here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

jseah

2010-10-07, 06:20 PM

Togo

2010-10-08, 10:07 PM

Just out of interest, Togo, how would you deal with this slew of attacks:

Foresight+Celerity -> Timestop -> Arcane Thesis (+Incantatrix) Delayed Disjunction + Chain Delayed Greater Dispel Magic (+dispelling cord +CL boosters +arcane mastery = auto dispel vs anything less than CL~24-25 or so)

Hmm.

First off, the delay feat goes off at the start of the round, so unless you have surprise on me, I have an action before it goes off. I could just move out of the area of effect, although the DM might not let me know where it's going to go off.

Second of all, the chain dispel magic is pointless, since that only works with a targeted spell, and you can't target someone who is subject to a time stop effect, delayed or not.

Third, dispel magic doesn't do anything to items unless you target them directly. While you can concentrate on the character and work what the most important items are, that takes time that you don't really have in the time stop. Certainly not all items would be visible. And the items, being attended, are also subject to time stop and thus can't be targeted, delayed or not. Area dispel doesn't effect items.

Fourth, as a character with very minor spellcasting ability, he wasn't relying on buffs to kill the wizard. He'll have them, they'll be useful, and losing them will make him cry, but I wasn't relying on them.

Items and buff spells are a good guess as to what makes the character dangerous, but it was a wrong guess in this case.

Then the wizard teleports away just to be a jerk.

This is something I certainly can't easily do, which is stop a wizard running away. Killing a sorceror or extraplanar creature with teleport is very hard, because they can usually just leave. Wizards are often easier, since they typically can't do it so many times a day.

I think your best bet is getting as high a hide check as possible without magic. Then getting around mindsight/lifesight, and divination, +hide in plain sight +darkstalker.

And then you can say that the wizard can't find you.

Hiding is one way. Better would be to turn up in an antimagic field, and laugh as the entire timestop cascade bounced off. You could do both, of course. Doesn't do anything to the more common tactics, which are to gate in creatures and fill the area with conjured area effects like acid fog or cloudkill.

Here's one for you. What would your wizard do against a harpoon with an antimagic field around it? (not what I was planning to do, but a fairly straightforward idea nontheless). If it hits, and it's not going to bothered by contingencies, magic protections short of prismatic wall, or any buff spells whatsoever, then it sticks in you and you need to spend an action getting it out.

Radar

2010-10-09, 02:59 AM

(...)
Here's one for you. What would your wizard do against a harpoon with an antimagic field around it? (not what I was planning to do, but a fairly straightforward idea nontheless). If it hits, and it's not going to bothered by contingencies, magic protections short of prismatic wall, or any buff spells whatsoever, then it sticks in you and you need to spend an action getting it out.
Apart from the fact, that AMF is a personal range spell (so you can't enchant a harpoon with it), the answer to AMF is a Tinfoil Hat - it always is.

Togo

2010-10-09, 07:08 AM

Apart from the fact, that AMF is a personal range spell (so you can't enchant a harpoon with it), the answer to AMF is a Tinfoil Hat - it always is.

I have my doubts as to whether the tinfoil hat is RAW. But even if it is, is there any reason why I can't use a variation of it against disjunction? I hadn't suggested it, because I thought it was ineffective in any sensible application of the rules.

It's certainly more of a edge case than a antimagic field on a harpoon.

Otherwise I could just turn up inside a barrel, or in several identical barrels, and 'win intiative' simply by not being in line of effect until it's my turn.

Radar

2010-10-09, 08:17 AM

From AMF description:
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
You build a metal dome big enough to fit you inside. Cast a permanent Shrink Item on it and wear it as a hat. The moment you are subject to AMF, the Shrink Item spell is suppressed and the dome goes back to it's original size. If you had it on your head, it's only logical, that you will end up inside the dome. The dome is subject for the AMF, but shields you from it (it obviously gives total cover). I don't find anything to be contested here. On the other hand AMF clearly states, that it's an emanation centered on you (the caster). There are ways to apply such spells on other people or objects (probably), but it requires certain commitment in your build.

As to using a Tinfoil Hat to defend against a wizard: the problem is, time works against you. If you are hiding it those barrels, then you can't attack and the wizard has time to summon allies and reshape the battlefield to his advantage and your doom. On the other hand, if the wizard is inside a dome, he has time to buff himself or polymorph into something with burrowing speed and leave some nasty surprise inside the dome, while you try to break into it.

jseah

2010-10-09, 08:24 AM

The tin-foil hat steps outside of a RAW/RAI discussion.

It's a piece of creative engineering.
AMF -> Suppresses every spell and item on the wizard including shrink item -> shrink item expands to block AMF source -> only item remains in line of effect

I like those things, similar to the abuse of contact other plane. (asking about questions to bypass no identical questions rule)

Could I take a stab at guessing your character?
Some kind of statistic stacker, a bit like adding cha to everything including itself and having Charisma through the roof.
I know a player who built something like that, on top of abusing Ability Rip, to get most combat stuff into high 70s.

Almost certainly wrong, but I think that's one build that doesn't rely (as much) on items or buffs.

Gauntlet

2010-10-09, 10:19 AM

Wouldn't it be possible to use Sculpt Spell on the Antimagic Field to have it include the wizard but not his hat?

Radar

2010-10-09, 10:59 AM

Wouldn't it be possible to use Sculpt Spell on the Antimagic Field to have it include the wizard but not his hat?
I'm not sure, if the Sculpt Spell can be that specific - it gives a bunch of area shapes, but affecting a person without his/her possession is kind of a stretch. Also: can scrolls contain metamagiced spells?

jseah

2010-10-09, 11:12 AM

It might be possible to sculpt spell AMF for a sufficiently large hat, such that the non-shrunk form of the hat is outside the AMF.

Otherwise, you can try including part of the wizard. Specifically the lower half.

Scrolls can contain metamagic versions of the spell. Empowered fireball counts as a 5th level spell for purposes of cost and CL minimum.

Radar

2010-10-09, 12:05 PM

It might be possible to sculpt spell AMF for a sufficiently large hat, such that the non-shrunk form of the hat is outside the AMF.

Otherwise, you can try including part of the wizard. Specifically the lower half.
(...)
1. The hat won't probably be that large.
2. If you only include the lower half of the wizard (if it's possible), then he should still be able to cast spells - his hands and head are out of range.

Togo

2010-10-09, 04:38 PM

The tin-foil hat steps outside of a RAW/RAI discussion.

It's a piece of creative engineering.

I'm aware how it works. The problem is that it was originally designed as a protection against spells. Against spells all you need is a thin layer to block line of effect, hence 'tin foil'.

Against a harpoon, you're looking at something a bit more substantial, and this is where the questions start getting raised. How is this not armour, in the sense of an obstruction causing somatic components to fail? considering that a harpoon can get through magical plate armour, how heavy is this dome? Remember, if it just pokes through, you're still in trouble. Does it bring the wizard to ground? How much falling damage does he take? Does a huge weight suddenly appearing on the wizard's head and potentially doing him damage not spring contingency spells based around 'an attack'?

I'm not convinced that having a 400 ft cubic dome appear around the wizard, bringing him to ground, is not in fact a very good thing for his opponent. It certainly limits the wizard's options.

Either way, presumably exactly the same effect would work against disjunction? Hence the turning up in a barrel...

I don't agree that time works against me. As long that time is spent countering my last move, then I'm still golden.

Could I take a stab at guessing your character?
Some kind of statistic stacker, a bit like adding cha to everything including itself and having Charisma through the roof.
I know a player who built something like that, on top of abusing Ability Rip, to get most combat stuff into high 70s.

Almost certainly wrong, but I think that's one build that doesn't rely (as much) on items or buffs.

It's a nice idea. Actually I'm using two or three source books and taking character classes more or less straight as written.

I didn't mean to keep people guessing. I could just say, but then the element of surprise would be gone, and I wanted to try it with someone who didn't know what they were up against.

Radar

2010-10-10, 04:56 AM

(...)
Against a harpoon, you're looking at something a bit more substantial, and this is where the questions start getting raised. How is this not armour, in the sense of an obstruction causing somatic components to fail? considering that a harpoon can get through magical plate armour, how heavy is this dome? Remember, if it just pokes through, you're still in trouble. Does it bring the wizard to ground? How much falling damage does he take? Does a huge weight suddenly appearing on the wizard's head and potentially doing him damage not spring contingency spells based around 'an attack'?

I'm not convinced that having a 400 ft cubic dome appear around the wizard, bringing him to ground, is not in fact a very good thing for his opponent. It certainly limits the wizard's options.

Either way, presumably exactly the same effect would work against disjunction? Hence the turning up in a barrel...

I don't agree that time works against me. As long that time is spent countering my last move, then I'm still golden.
(...)
I've just run through some calculations and a hat weighting a pound (still reasonable) would get you a steel dome half an inch thick. So a mithral dome would be an inch thick (half the regular weight), which gives 30hp with hardness 15. Not that much, but will stop any projectile unless from an throw optimised character. Even a steel dome should suffice and had to be taken down in melee.

I can't say much about any damage sustained due to expanding hat, but the wizard will not be pinned down by it - there is enough room inside for him to cast spells etc. If so, he can in a worst case scenario teleport away and mount a counterattack (gated allies, Mindrape + Love's Pain or any other method). At least that's how I see it. I haven't done any PvP so I'm obviously missing a lot of tactics/countertactics. Test of Spite contestants might be more able to give a definite answer to the problem.

Togo

2010-10-10, 07:03 AM

I've just run through some calculations and a hat weighting a pound (still reasonable) would get you a steel dome half an inch thick. So a mithral dome would be an inch thick (half the regular weight), which gives 30hp with hardness 15. Not that much, but will stop any projectile unless from an throw optimised character. Even a steel dome should suffice and had to be taken down in melee.

Possibly. An adamantine harpoon thrown by a fighter with strength 30, armbands of might, brutal throw and power throw, could easily do 30 points of damage (6.5+10+12+2). That hardly requires much optimisation. A fighter wouldn't even need to be a specialised thrower.

However, 30 hp is the amount you need to break down an inch thick barrier. It's the rules designed for breaking down doors and such. All the harpoon needs to do is poke through a bit, and that wouldn't be nearly so hard. It doesn't need to hurt the wizard.

I can't say much about any damage sustained due to expanding hat, but the wizard will not be pinned down by it - there is enough room inside for him to cast spells etc.

That's not the point. The point is that he's balancing (by your calculations) 2000ld of metal on his head. Even if that doesn't break his neck, unless he has a strength of 27 or more, that's enough to bring him crashing to the ground (doing falling damage and knocking him prone). He's then trapped under a heavy dome he can't even drag unless he's on smooth ground, possibly can't even tip over..

If so, he can in a worst case scenario teleport away and mount a counterattack (gated allies, Mindrape + Love's Pain or any other method). At least that's how I see it.

Worst case is that the dome lands upright with the harpoon sticking through, and he's trapped in an antimagic mithril jail cell. Not inescapable, but I'd say it gives the non-wizard the advantage.

I haven't done any PvP so I'm obviously missing a lot of tactics/countertactics. Test of Spite contestants might be more able to give a definite answer to the problem.

Possibly. Test of Spite bans a surprising amount of stuff though. Including a lot of stuff that could be abused by wizards, but could equally be abused by Tier 2 characters and below. Unlike most campaigns though, they don't ban any spells. As such, I'd say it's somewhat slanted in favour of wizards in particular, and Tier 1 casters in general. It's a good arena, but I certainly wouldn't call it definitive.

Radar

2010-10-10, 07:39 AM

1. After expansion The Hat is not even on wizard's head - it's higher then that, so that is not an issue.
2. 30 hp plus 15 hardness, so it would take more then that, unless you can use Mountain Hammer maneuver on a throw, which I doubt.
3. You haven't addres the issue of applying Antimagic Field to a harpoon.

Also: all ToS bans have a reason behind them, so people in charge of the rules know, how to exploit each of the banned spells/item/etc.

Emmerask

2010-10-10, 09:24 AM

In general. At least, the goal of the diplomacy check is considered so, since unless you can make the wizard fanatical I really don't think you can consider it a victory.

helpful:
Sure I let you crash at my place (my place being the demiplane the real wizard lives in).
Yeah I´m going to sleep/meditate now, you can watch crystal ball...the toilet? yeah its right next to the weapons chamber, the one I have shown you, remember?

Then in his sleep/meditation the wizard gets stabbed, A Lot :smallwink:

Togo

2010-10-10, 09:24 AM

1. After expansion The Hat is not even on wizard's head - it's higher then that, so that is not an issue.

Ah, I was assuming a flying wizard.

2. 30 hp plus 15 hardness, so it would take more then that, unless you can use Mountain Hammer maneuver on a throw, which I doubt.

Adamantine harpoon ignores hardness.

3. You haven't addres the issue of applying Antimagic Field to a harpoon.

I know, it was just an idea. A weapon of legacy could probably do it, but that's quite a major investment, and starts to get into the realm of DM fiat.

Also: all ToS bans have a reason behind them, so people in charge of the rules know, how to exploit each of the banned spells/item/etc.

Sure, they ban anything that might make the capabilities of the characters irrelevent. For example, they ban the entire polymorph chain. Since powers that make the capabilities of the characters irrelevent is the best way for a weaker character to beat a stronger one, that's tilting things in favour of the stronger character. Noone denies that a high level wizard is the most powerful, and ToS bans a great deal that might make serve to reduce that gradient.

Of course they do so because they want interesting duels, rather than comparions of rules exploits, but it rules out almost all the best ways to kill a wizard.