Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Myth]

So? How does one do it? Please don't suggest "Steal their Spellbook" and "Drag them in a Dead Magic Zone" as these are very situational and borderline DM fiat.

And no, nuking it out with your own overpowered Wizard/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper is not a solution. Are there any good ways (classess, items, summons, races, feats etc.) to reliably take on high level Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers (and may be Druids but don't focus on their BEAR POWER aspects)

If you must know, this is inspired by the "everyone gets a DnD ball and chooses a class" thread i saw here yesterday. It seems that anyone with half a brain would and will go for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Archivist, Factotum etc. so i figured there must be something out there.

I remember in AD&D (as in: Baldur's Gate II, yes I know PC games and all that) there was a Mage Slayer kit for Fighters but it pretty much sucked arse.

I know of the Spellthief PrC but it didn't seem very strong last time i bothered reading up on it (which was a long time ago).

Also, please assume the casters have adequate defenses set up, so "ambush them with arrows" doesn't quite work out at CLVL 15+

[The_Admiral]

Send Pun-Pun

[Tehnar]

There are a couple of builds that let you get saves high enough to pass any save DC and at the same time getting a touch AC high enough that casters need to use true strike to have a shot at hitting you.

Then the biggest problem you have is to keep the Tier 1 caster from running away. That is assuming he doesn't disjoin your gear first.

[Kobold-Bard]

Play a Monk. The Wizard will be laughing so hard at your feeble attempt to kill him that he'll fumble his spells and you can snap his neck :smallamused:

Play a Sorcerer. Like a Wizard but Tier 2, target his spell list at Mage slaying.

Pixie Paladin 2/Monk 2/warblade X?

[pingcode20]

Be a dragon. (What? They only cast as T2 casters...)

[Eldariel]

There are a couple of builds that let you get saves high enough to pass any save DC and at the same time getting a touch AC high enough that casters need to use true strike to have a shot at hitting you.

Those builds are a joke. They're turtles that do nothing. If you want to kill a caster, you need a good offense, not a good defense; defending is a battle you've already lost anyways. Besides, caster can get bigger numbers in all those stats with buff spells if they so desire.

[Killer Angel]

So? How does one do it?

And no, nuking it out with your own overpowered Wizard/Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper is not a solution.


Of course it's not a solution, given that the limitation is "not being a T1". :smallamused:



Also, please assume the casters have adequate defenses set up, so "ambush them with arrows" doesn't quite work out at CLVL 15+

You need another caster, but T2 (Sorcerer, etc), well prepared.
OR another class, even a fighter, with many levels higher than the wizard (7-8 will suffice), thus compensating with far superior WBL.

[Myth]

You need another caster, but T2 (Sorcerer, etc), well prepared.
OR another class, even a fighter, with many levels higher than the wizard (7-8 will suffice), thus compensating with far superior WBL.Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.

[DrGonzo]

Hmm.. Haven't seen one of these threads for a while now..

[Killer Angel]

Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.

You'd say to start from a 15 lev. wizard
We'd have a sort of arena tournament, with various matches between optimized wizards 13°, Vs optimized Fighters 20°.
The win were almost equally distribuited between the two, exactly for the enormous WBL difference, so yeah, I think a fighter 22-23 will win 40%-50% Vs a Wiz. 15.

Edit: in those arena tournament, there weren't PrCs.

[MammonAzrael]

Play a Monk.

Causing Hideous laughter is an Extraordinary ability of 20th level monks.

And least, it should be.

[pasko77]

Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.

No, you don't understand.
He meant he can kill a level 1 wizard with a level 9 fighter.
I assume this is doable:smallsigh:

[Earthwalker]

I have oftened wondered how as a GM you would challenge a wizard without just wizarding striaght back at them.

At lower levels its easy as the spells per day limit does come into play, at higher levels it seems that a wizard would never run out of spells.

I am interested after say lvl 5, the players of wizards on these boards do you ever run out of spells ?

[Ozymandias9]

Rogue 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Spymaster 7/Black Dog 5/XXX

You're a spymaster 7: try as they might, they're not going to get a divination to detect you as an enemy unless you want them to or you screw up. Against all but the most paranoid of casters, you should be able to deliver poison often enough that it should eventually stick against most casters. They probably won't dump con, but they won't pump it hugely either.

Essentially, you have the capacity to move the conflict from a combat test to a skill test. It will fall apart against sufficient contingencies though. If you grab spymaster, you can do this with several tactics.

[BobVosh]

Rogue 4/Dragonmark Heir 1/Spymaster 7/Black Dog 5/XXX

You're a spymaster 7: try as they might, they're not going to get a divination to detect you as an enemy unless you want them to or you screw up. Against all but the most paranoid of casters, you should be able to deliver poison often enough that it should eventually stick against most casters. They probably won't dump con, but they won't pump it hugely either.

Essentially, you have the capacity to move the conflict from a combat test to a skill test. It will fall apart against sufficient contingencies though. If you grab spymaster, you can do this with several tactics.

Delivering poison...how? Touch? Dropping it in thier food supplies? What moderately high level wizard actually eats, or at least eats beyond a heroes feast?

[Killer Angel]

No, you don't understand.
He meant he can kill a level 1 wizard with a level 9 fighter.
I assume this is doable:smallsigh:

:smallmad:
No, what I said is Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1123473).
:smallamused:

The WBL difference had some chance to beat the wizard, OK, not 50-50 (1 on 3 in those matches), but it can.
(note that one of the encounter won by the wiz., took 18 pages, so it wasn't an easy walk)
If the Wiz. is 15°, and you have a epic WBL, you still can beat him.
When the wiz. approaches lev. 18°, almost surely you can't.

[Psyx]

It seems that anyone with half a brain would and will go for Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Archivist, Factotum etc.

Are you saying that anyone with half a brain will always choose the most powerful class in a ROLEPLAYING game to play? Because I -and I suspect a lot of other people - could easily take offence at that...

[Soren Hero]

Some dust of Sneezing and Choking should do the trick
From the SRD: emphasis mine
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.

any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait

[Kobold-Bard]

Are you saying that anyone with half a brain will always choose the most powerful class in a ROLEPLAYING game to play? Because I -and I suspect a lot of other people - could easily take offence at that...

I believe they meant the thread about picking a D&D class if you were allowed one in real life. I large proportion of people picked T1 casters and almost everyone chose a T1/T2/unlimited class eg. Warlock, Binder etc.

Edit:

...

any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait

Craft Contingent Spell.
Contingency: Someone uses DoS&C on me.
Effect: Dimension Door as far away from enemies as possible.
or
Effect: Disintegrate/Dominate/Finger of Death on creature that used it.

[FelixG]

Anti Magic Field NET

Have it as a use activated continuous, throw net on caster, activate AMF, they are trapped, assuming they have pidly strength and you are a macho fighter :D

If they have the "box under a hat" trick prepared to block their LOS on an AMF then they are stuck inside of the box...in a net...in an AMF :D

[BobVosh]

Anti Magic Field NET

Have it as a use activated continuous, throw net on caster, activate AMF, they are trapped, assuming they have pidly strength and you are a macho fighter :D

If they have the "box under a hat" trick prepared to block their LOS on an AMF then they are stuck inside of the box...in a net...in an AMF :D

Box under a hat?

Also: Adrupt jaunt. And how did you get in net range?


Some dust of Sneezing and Choking should do the trick
From the SRD: emphasis mine
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.

any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait

Necklace of adaptation. Also contigency: If I become incapable of action, teleport/plane shift away.

[Math_Mage]

Anti Magic Field NET

Have it as a use activated continuous, throw net on caster, activate AMF, they are trapped, assuming they have pidly strength and you are a macho fighter :D

If they have the "box under a hat" trick prepared to block their LOS on an AMF then they are stuck inside of the box...in a net...in an AMF :D

As a DM, adjudicating whether the net landed on the wizard's hat or not, and thus whether the net is inside or outside the resulting unshrunk item, would be a nightmare.

EDIT: Wait, actually, no, it wouldn't. I'd just add some arbitrary number to the wizard's AC and say you had to hit that in order to hit the wizard and miss the hat.

[kestrel404]

Simpler than that. Rogue with a scroll of AMF and Hide in Plain Sight as an ex ability. Use the scroll, sneak up on the caster, grapple. Their all-day buffs? Suppressed. Their crafted contingencies? Suppressed. They've got a something shrunken on them that expands when the AMF hits? You're hugging him, your a rogue, it's gonna be a reflex save or dex check to have it affect you the same as it affects him.

Works at any level as long as you're willing for the NPCs to blow a scroll of AMF (or possibly just hire an NPC to cast it) on the task.

[Clovis]

Any class with a housecat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) as animal companion...

[2xMachina]

Kill them at lvl 1.

[Ozymandias9]

Delivering poison...how? Touch? Dropping it in thier food supplies? What moderately high level wizard actually eats, or at least eats beyond a heroes feast?

Black Dog allows poison delivery of any poison (regardless of normal delivery method) on contact and allows delivery of any indigestible poison to a food or drink without actually handling the food or drink in question.

And yes (not that it matters for your particular objection, as they need only reliably ingest something) but I'm assuming that most wizards aren't paranoid enough to eat only conjured food. I'm also assuming that they don't have spend most of their free time crafting contingent spells. I'm also assuming they occasionally shake hands with acquaintances and occasionally dine in their presence.

I'm not assuming that they don't take precautions before doing so. Spymaster is there to deal with those precautions. Any divination on you reveals only the details of the appropriate cover identity.

They're powerful yes, but they're still people. I fully expect that they, say, purify the food before eating: powerful people have food tasters for the exact same purpose. But I'll also assume that they do like eating at restaurants or occasionally having a coffee with an adventuring companion. The degree of paranoia often ascribed to wizards on this forum is a good model for insanity (even if the presumed dangers are true).

[Aharon]

28 pages (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0). You'll have to read through a bit, but there are some builds that can deal with PO casters in there.

[BobVosh]

The degree of paranoia often ascribed to wizards on this forum is a good model for insanity (even if the presumed dangers are true).

Just a little.

Actually I was assuming a ring of sustenance, or being undead, or any other of 100 ways to not need to eat.

Black dog sounds neat.

[The Glyphstone]

Attack them when they're level 1.

[Killer Angel]

Attack them when they're level 1.

Although this is a good idea, i fear it doesn't fit OP's requirement of "high level Wizards".

And your post doesn't contribute to the discussion! Please, can you report yourself? :smalltongue:

[Drascin]

Fact of the matter is, for anything you can do, the caster is able to have a counter - there are spells for everything. Yes, even that. Yes, that too.

But, thankfully, it's very rare that he can have all of them at the same time, and that he will never make a little mistake - casters are still human, after all (or elves, or whatever). Your only real chance is to find this particular guy's Achilles' Heel and exploit it. It's less going to be a straight up battle and more a cat and mouse game - though one where the mouse has an AK-47, so it behooves the cat to not pounce recklessly! :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

The problem with poison is that Hero's Feast is only a level 6 spell and makes you immune to poison all day. Now, sure, it's not a wizard spell, but wizards can get around that. They could buy an item of it, or just have a party member or follower cast it.

[Eldariel]

Some dust of Sneezing and Choking should do the trick
From the SRD: emphasis mine
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.

any caster that succeeds will automatically be stunned for at least four rounds, and as many as 20...stunned creatures can take no actions...in other words, this means that all casters become bait

...unfortunately immunity to Stunning is quite easy to come by. And AMFs tend to fall to contingencies. A lot. Also, Ex Hide in Plain Sights are always limited as to where they can be used; generally they're pretty worthless in the sky which is where you'll usually find high level Wizards.

[The Glyphstone]

Although this is a good idea, i fear it doesn't fit OP's requirement of "high level Wizards".

And your post doesn't contribute to the discussion! Please, can you report yourself? :smalltongue:

Sure it does, I forgot to mention the "spend your obscene WBL on Time Travel magic" step 1 of the plan. Step 4 is Profit.:smallwink:


But, thankfully, it's very rare that he can have all of them at the same time, and that he will never make a little mistake - casters are still human, after all (or elves, or whatever). Your only real chance is to find this particular guy's Achilles' Heel and exploit it. It's less going to be a straight up battle and more a cat and mouse game - though one where the mouse has an AK-47, so it behooves the cat to not pounce recklessly! :smallbiggrin:

I think it's more the other way round. Cat-and-mouse, but the cat has body armor, a force field, rocket boots, and shoulder-mounted laser cannons. The mouse's only hope is either catch the cat in the one tiny gap in his armor, or simply have enough money in his bank account to buy an armor-piercing-force-field-breaking-rocket-boot-homing-laser-cannon-dodging missile.

[137beth]

At very low levels (level 1), it isn't all that hard to do with a fighter. But at HIGH levels, we have a challenge.

What I would do is get a magic item that allows the wielder to cast anti-magic field once per day, use it, and charge with a melee character.

[Radar]

Box under a hat?
Build an adamantine dome, inside which you could fit. Cast permanent Shrink Item on it. Now you have a stylish adamantine helmet or a cloth cap (if you have chosen that version of shrinking), that will grow and shield you if you are subject to AMF or some such.

@Ozymandias9
Very interesting build you got there. It actually makes me feel that over the top paranoia is justified. :smallsmile:

If we are talking about an open fight, then anything with way higher WBL then the caster can emulate all important spells and abilities. For an extreme example see the Cube build somewhere on this boads. I guess a more advanced version took part in the Test of Spite arena.

[The Glyphstone]

At very low levels (level 1), it isn't all that hard to do with a fighter. But at HIGH levels, we have a challenge.

What I would do is get a magic item that allows the wielder to cast anti-magic field once per day, use it, and charge with a melee character.

The many problems with this plan have been noted previously. Activating the field first means you better have wings, because he's going to be flying and you've just disabled your magical flight options. You'll need to be able to one-shot him with that charge attack (or a pounce-full attack), otherwise he'll either walk out of the AMF or use one of the small suite of tricks for casting in an AMF and leave it anyways. And that's assuming he doesn't use a Win-button like Celerity to simply Go First and make it impossible for you to catch him (easiest would be become invisible and move...you're in an AMF, and there's no way to see invisible as an (Ex) ability that I'm aware of).

[Malbordeus]

I've found getting the jump on a wizard when your a fighter with a AMF cast on you works.

Various Fighter items that help...

potion of AMF
Boots of speed
Cloak of flying (or daemon armour)


... thats it. you start your charge at 120ft without supprise, or 60ft if you use an invis potion (note for all you rules buffs: thats a pretty gnarly penalty to spot... not a skill most wizards have a lot of), i'm sure people here can work out ways of getting a longer charge... oh yeah! flying from an elevated angle...
imp unarmed strike/grapple (or dip into monk...). you have a wizard, grappled, inside a AMF. theres nothing sensible you can put in a hat that blocks off the amf unless its large enough to be a coffin and made of lead... in which case, an oil of amf would be funny to pour on it. contingency wont work as amf, abrupt jaunt wont work as supprise + Amf.
i think that does it.

edit. apparently i'm retarded. stuff the amf potions, get a contingent AMF geared to "if I grapple an arcanist"

[The Glyphstone]

You've still got to foil his Contingencies though, and if he's high enough to cast Foresight, his Abrupt Jaunt is still an option (because he's not flat-footed). Contigencies specifically trigger instantaneously, so "if I would be subjected to an AMF" will fire off the Contingent spell before the AMF comes into effect to suppress it.

Even if that strategy works, somehow...you now can't fly either. Let's hope he picked a flight level where he'll die from the falling damage but you won't, otherwise we're back at Square 1, where he does something like Invoke Magic and D-Doors to safety.

[Kobold-Bard]

Although this is a good idea, i fear it doesn't fit OP's requirement of "high level Wizards".

And your post doesn't contribute to the discussion! Please, can you report yourself? :smalltongue:

Teleport Through Time:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b

1. Optimise Knowledge (History) to find out Wizard's date of birth.
2. Use item of TTT.
3. Step on baby Wizard before he has magic (note: this plan is significantly less safe when used against Sorcerers).
4. Use knowledge of the future to set up a business selling "Edition War Fire Extinguishers" and "Swords of Monk & Fighter Thread-bane" (people will look at you funny but when the **** hits the fan you'll become a God).
5. No ???, just PROFIT!!!

[Eldan]

Pre-knowledge can be used in more interesting ways.

Hmm. You could publish your own version of 3E, Pathfinder-style, the same day they announce 4E. :smallbiggrin: If you are quick enough, you can also try nicking ToB and MoI.

[Eldariel]

You've still got to foil his Contingencies though, and if he's high enough to cast Foresight, his Abrupt Jaunt is still an option (because he's not flat-footed). Contigencies specifically trigger instantaneously, so "if I would be subjected to an AMF" will fire off the Contingent spell before the AMF comes into effect to suppress it.

Even if that strategy works, somehow...you now can't fly either. Let's hope he picked a flight level where he'll die from the falling damage but you won't, otherwise we're back at Square 1, where he does something like Invoke Magic and D-Doors to safety.

Don't forget Celerity, Instant Refuge, The Tinfoil Hat and so on. Oh, and Crafted Contingencies.

[Delusion]

Surely any of the tier 3 casters could have a change at least?

[Esser-Z]

Truenamer 20, with Leadershipped Experts all using Aid Another on the truenaming check.

[Killer Angel]

Surely any of the tier 3 casters could have a change at least?

As I've said before, even a non caster T<3 can succeed in it.
The fact is: to beat the magical defences of a high lev. wizard, you need magic too.
If your class abilities don't suffice (AKA, if you're not a caster), then you must have enought wealth to buy and use a sufficient number of wizard tricks.

As said also by our Mod, in a more flavourful way:


Cat-and-mouse, but the cat has body armor, a force field, rocket boots, and shoulder-mounted laser cannons. The mouse's only hope is either catch the cat in the one tiny gap in his armor, or simply have enough money in his bank account to buy an armor-piercing-force-field-breaking-rocket-boot-homing-laser-cannon-dodging missile.

Money can do it... but there is a point, where even the money will fail.

[WinWin]

Hide optimization + hide in plain sight as an extraordinary ability. That should make you immune to true seeing. Won't stop Foresight or other detection spells though (detect magic, detect alignment, detect thoughs, detect poison, etc).

Perhaps a necropolitan Ranger/Rogue with mundane gear might have a chance. They could theoretically avoid most detection spells. All they need do then is lurk in the casters bedroom until they go to sleep. Coup de Grace with a scythe or a pick.

The main problem is that any caster could theoretically trap every square inch of their living space. Not to mention the lurking monsters they could have waiting for any potential ambusher. This is assuming that the casters lair is even accessable via conventional methods.

[Ruinix]

once a friend did a blinking charger with the feat mage slayer, at lev 9 he screw much higher wizards clerics archivist, any caster our DM throw us.

[MarkusWolfe]

Stealth is the key means to killing a wizard.

[Esser-Z]

Be a Warhulking Hurler. Throw the moon at him.

[Aotrs Commander]

You've still got to foil his Contingencies though, and if he's high enough to cast Foresight, his Abrupt Jaunt is still an option (because he's not flat-footed). Contigencies specifically trigger instantaneously, so "if I would be subjected to an AMF" will fire off the Contingent spell before the AMF comes into effect to suppress it.

That's actually not what it says in the Complete Arcane, though. It specifically states crafted contingencies are supressed by antimagic fields (and are dispellable).

I think the logic of that is also not sound; unless you are ascribing future sight or the ability to otherwise identify a spell automatically when cast without a spellcraft check to contingencies, they shouldn't detect an AMF until it hits them; by which point, it's too late and they are suppressed. It's akin to saying a mains-only-powered electrical device can instantly take some action to prevent itself being turned off when it's power is cut.

That said, AMF is admittedly, still not easy to use. (I think the very best way of ruining a caster's day is with Anti-Magic Ray because that is nasty if you can get it off (if not as evil as I'd thought after looking it up). It's getting a way to hit them with a 7th level spell that's the problem.)

There's nearly a counter for everything in D&D. But it's not so easy to have them all simultaneously, though. So you need to find a weak spot.

And finally, you can only have 21 contingencies pre-Epic (one from the spell and 20 crafted ones). So if you can find 22 things to make the caster have to deal with contigency, he won't be able to protect from all of them!

In essense, though, to deal with casters without your own caster support (heck, doesn't have to be tier 1, someone with Dispel Magic and/or scrolls would help), it's like trying to fight against aircraft when you don't have anything to fight them with. Your only hope is to hit them on the ground. Basically, if you can't fight them on reasonably even terms, you have to beat them strategically, and on a case-by-case basis. A bit like Batman himself, you'd have to figure out what makes them tick and find a way to use that to get something on your terms.

[jiriku]

The easiest way to defeat a high-level caster is to use a team and crush him with action advantage, planning, teamwork, and class synergies.

A wizard x will generally fall to a sorcerer, paladin, factotum, and warblade of level x-4 with proper optimization and good tactics. 3 of 4 of them (with proper ACFs and spell selection) can attempt to dispel or counter him. They have more money, more actions, and many tools to trick him and force him to waste actions and spells dealing with phantom threats. Moreover, they can potentially acquire a great deal of knowledge about his preferred tactics and common defenses using their collective information-gathering resources, and they can prepare interlocking defenses using the best abilities of all their classes. It will be a difficult, challenging fight, but it's very doable.

[The Glyphstone]

That's actually not what it says in the Complete Arcane, though. It specifically states crafted contingencies are supressed by antimagic fields (and are dispellable).

I think the logic of that is also not sound; unless you are ascribing future sight or the ability to otherwise identify a spell automatically when cast without a spellcraft check to contingencies, they shouldn't detect an AMF until it hits them; by which point, it's too late and they are suppressed. It's akin to saying a mains-only-powered electrical device can instantly take some action to prevent itself being turned off when it's power is cut.

That said, AMF is admittedly, still not easy to use. (I think the very best way of ruining a caster's day is with Anti-Magic Ray because that is brutal if you can get it off. It's getting a way to hit them with a 7th level spell that's the problem.)

There's nearly a counter for everything in D&D. But it's not so easy to have them all simultaneously, though. So you need to find a weak spot.

And finally, you can only have 21 contingencies pre-Epic (one from the spell and 20 crafted ones). So if you can find 22 things to make the caster have to deal with contigency, he won't be able to protect from all of them!

In essense, though, to deal with casters without your own caster support (heck, doesn't have to be tier 1, someone with Dispel Magic and/or scrolls would help), it's like trying to fight against aircraft when you don't have anything to fight them with. Your only hope is to hit them on the ground. Basically, if you can't fight them on reasonably even terms, you have to beat them strategically, and on a case-by-case basis. A bit like Batman himself, you'd have to figure out what makes them tick and find a way to use that to get something on your terms.

A fairly good summary, and after looking at CArc, you're right regarding the contingencies.

[Ormagoden]

Use a diplomancer or jumplomancer build.
Carry black lotus extract.
Get the wizard to "fanatic" and tell them that 55 gallon drum of it over there is cool aid.

You could just use lockjaw too, another powerful poison that shuts down all casting.

Dust of coughing and sneezing too if you want to go for ultra sharp cheddar cheese.

[Eldan]

Hide optimization + hide in plain sight as an extraordinary ability. That should make you immune to true seeing. Won't stop Foresight or other detection spells though (detect magic, detect alignment, detect thoughs, detect poison, etc).


I guess you could add a one-use item of Superior Invisibility and the Darkstalker feat. That should cover the basics of detection magic. Also, Misdirection. Didn't one of the spy classes in CArc have that?

[Tengu_temp]

Very high stealth + immunity to divination spells + ubercharger build, preferably with Pounce. A ranger/psychic warrior/slayer should do the trick. Bonus points for being useful for things other than killing wizards.

[Eldan]

If you can, you could include a few Swordsage levels for shadow teleportation. Maybe also the Telflammar Shadowlord for shadow pounce. Would help with your stealth. Though that would ruin ubercharging.

[Eldariel]

Hide optimization + hide in plain sight as an extraordinary ability. That should make you immune to true seeing. Won't stop Foresight or other detection spells though (detect magic, detect alignment, detect thoughs, detect poison, etc).

Perhaps a necropolitan Ranger/Rogue with mundane gear might have a chance. They could theoretically avoid most detection spells. All they need do then is lurk in the casters bedroom until they go to sleep. Coup de Grace with a scythe or a pick.

The main problem is that any caster could theoretically trap every square inch of their living space. Not to mention the lurking monsters they could have waiting for any potential ambusher. This is assuming that the casters lair is even accessable via conventional methods.

The principal issue is that caster's spell list tends to involve rather safe locations to sleep in like Magnificent Mansion or Rope Trick; places only accessible to those they want to allow enter. And when you have Magnificent Mansions, what do you need mundane homes for?

Also, Contingencies are still in effect even in their sleep.


And finally, you can only have 21 contingencies pre-Epic (one from the spell and 20 crafted ones). So if you can find 22 things to make the caster have to deal with contigency, he won't be able to protect from all of them!

There's also Instant Refuge in SC which is more or less another Contingency. Not to mention Celerity.

[Ormagoden]

I'm telling you... diplomancer. There is no defense against it. It doesn't matter what spells are up or what they have memorized or at their disposal when they become a fanatic and drink the cool aid for you.

[Stompy]

-Make a combination trap, that starts with an AMF and ends with something that sticks the wizard there and does continuous damage (that most people woundn't have a non-magical answer). I'm thinking a bladed net combined with acid.*

-Alternatively, make traps that sunder their gear. Start with the spellbook and extradimensional spaces first.

-Play a bard and convince an even better T1 caster that the caster you want dead is a menace to society. Bonus points if he is one.

*Once again, I can only throw wild speculations, because of things like contingency, and other shenanigans people have thought of.

[Gametime]

I'm telling you... diplomancer. There is no defense against it. It doesn't matter what spells are up or what they have memorized or at their disposal when they become a fanatic and drink the cool aid for you.

Honestly, once they're fanatically devoted to you you're probably better off not killing them. I realize that was the point of this exercise, but there are so many more useful things they could be doing!

[thompur]

A maximized Reciprical Gyre...

[Drakevarg]

Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.

(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)

[FelixG]

You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.

Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.

And im not sure about others but when i play a wizard i tend to keep a second spell book secreted away in something like a portable hole hidden elsewhere in such occasions (i have had **** GMs have my spellbook get stolen in the night before)

[Drakevarg]

You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.

Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.

And im not sure about others but when i play a wizard i tend to keep a second spell book secreted away in something like a portable hole hidden elsewhere in such occasions (i have had **** GMs have my spellbook get stolen in the night before)

Fine. Silenced Quickened True Strike, Silenced Disintegrate, Antimagic Field. Dip one level into Barbarian and beat him with a blunt object for a few minutes.

Or just do the original thing while he's still having his morning cardboard out of his Myrlund's Spoon.

[Stompy]

You disintigrate his spell book, congrats now hes pissed off and you used those high level slots and he still has everything prepared and nukes you back to oblivion.)

Celerity. Teleport.


Hitting his spell book doesn't really do anything unless he has yet to prepare his spell for that day.

It does do something, at least. Heck, the wizard may be pissed off enough (see above) to do something rash and stupid. That's when you get him.

[FelixG]

Celerity. Teleport.



It does do something, at least. Heck, the wizard may be pissed off enough (see above) to do something rash and stupid. That's when you get him.

Wizards key ability is int though, they better damn well be smart enough to realize you are attempting to goad them into action :P

[Stompy]

Wizards key ability is int though, they better damn well be smart enough to realize you are attempting to goad them into action :P

that's the WIS stat sir, which is usually 8 on these wizards :smallamused:.

EDIT: that may not be the case, stupid semi-ill-defined mental stats.

[Drakevarg]

Wizards key ability is int though, they better damn well be smart enough to realize you are attempting to goad them into action :P

Contrary to popular belief, "intelligent" != "Vulcan." :smalltongue:

[Emmerask]

that's the WIS stat sir, which is usually 8 on these wizards :smallamused:.

EDIT: that may not be the case, stupid semi-ill-defined mental stats.

I think its wisdom too, wisdom being the perception stat which includes perceiving other peoples intents and behaviors.

You could make a point for Int having a part in it but that would mix real world with d&d.

[Tyndmyr]

Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.

(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)

You carry your spellbook in an openly visible, identifiable fashion?

I essentially never do. Not just because of paranoia, but because with low strength, carrying capacity is not my strong point. Plus, I don't need my spellbook mid-day. Therefore, it gets stashed somewhere safe. Typically on me, though.

The paranoia is why I carry a fake spellbook at my side, trapped all to hell.

[FelixG]

I think its wisdom too, wisdom being the perception stat which includes perceiving other peoples intents and behaviors.

You could make a point for Int having a part in it but that would mix real world with d&d.

Knowledge (tactics): What would their goal be in targeting my spellbook instead of me with that sneaky distintigrate spell.

Sense Motive: See above

Works either way ~.^

[Drakevarg]

Knowledge (tactics): What would their goal be in targeting my spellbook instead of me with that sneaky distintigrate spell.

Not a standardized Knowledge category for one, and have you ever actually taken ranks in that yourself, for two?


Sense Motive: See above

Sense Motive is WIS-based.


You carry your spellbook in an openly visible, identifiable fashion?

Honestly? Yes. I just leave it on my belt because I'm too damned lazy to put it anywhere else.

Then again, I'm a blasty-mage with a fondness for fire trapping everything I come across. So I'm probably not the best mage to take advise from. :smallamused:

[Emmerask]

Knowledge (tactics): What would their goal be in targeting my spellbook instead of me with that sneaky distintigrate spell.

Sense Motive: See above

Works either way ~.^

With this you are mixing real world with d&d ^^
skills in d&d have a very specific and narrow field of use, if you try to substitute one skill with the other (which makes sense in the real world) you are talking about rap and not raw anymore.

If one of those two would grant the other synergy one could argue the point but this way...

[FelixG]

Not a standardized Knowledge category for one, and have you ever actually taken ranks in that yourself, for two?



Sense Motive is WIS-based.



Honestly? Yes. I just leave it on my belt because I'm too damned lazy to put it anywhere else.

Then again, I'm a blasty-mage with a fondness for fire trapping everything I come across. So I'm probably not the best mage to take advise from. :smallamused:

No kidding Sense Motive is WIS based? Why would i ever use it to compare that a WIS and INT skill can overlap...

Your right though Knowledge Tactics is a D20 modern skill but i have taken it in conjunction with fighters with the leadership feat. And as there is really nothing else to figure out battle plans in DnD it would likely just be straight INT.

And binding a book closed then hanging a book is less lazy than just tossing it in your backpack when you are done with it? 0.o Lazy fail. :P

[Vulaas]

Non T1 caster? Don't suppose that allows a Rainbow Servant (text over table) Warmage to work :smalltongue:. Because if it does, you can totally just out-caster them.

For a noncaster, you must assume a couple things, though.
1) You can find out reliably about where they are teleporting
2) You can then follow in some manner. Otherwise it is futile other than to make something with a half dozen carrier effects on a crit and then keep hoping that your first attack is a critical and they aren't immune to it.

Otherwise, and more seriously, for a non-caster, I think the Vecna-blooded template is a must for giving absolute immunity to divinations, then a ton of stealth (Remember Darkstalker!). Most likely I'd suggest an archer of some sort. Take the scry out of scry and die, and stay out of sight while sniping them bit by bit.

[Drakevarg]

No kidding Sense Motive is WIS based? Why would i ever use it to compare that a WIS and INT skill can overlap...

I misinterpreted the point of your statement, then.


Your right though Knowledge Tactics is a D20 modern skill but i have taken it in conjunction with fighters with the leadership feat. And as there is really nothing else to figure out battle plans in DnD it would likely just be straight INT.

A'course, if your DM isn't a master tactician, you might be better off just using your own meatspace brainpan. :smalltongue:


And binding a book closed then hanging a book is less lazy than just tossing it in your backpack when you are done with it? 0.o Lazy fail. :P

You bind your spellbook? :smallconfused:

Well, to be more accurate, I have a leather bookbag. Which, while not ATTACHED to my belt, hangs along side it. Relevent point being that I make no effort whatsoever to obscure it's location.

[FelixG]

I misinterpreted the point of your statement, then.



A'course, if your DM isn't a master tactician, you might be better off just using your own meatspace brainpan. :smalltongue:



You bind your spellbook? :smallconfused:

Well, to be more accurate, I have a leather bookbag. Which, while not ATTACHED to my belt, hangs along side it. Relevent point being that I make no effort whatsoever to obscure it's location.

Misinterpreting happens to the best of us :D

I dont mind if the DM isnt a master tactician, but i expect my 30 int wizard to be pretty dang good at figuring things out, thats probably surpassing even mentat levels of reasoning (dune reference, look it up for those who dont get it :P ) and my wizard is probably a whole heck of alot smarter than me.

Bind as in wrapping it in leather straps to keep it closed and tieing it to my belt.

And if you just drop it in a bookbag then it cant be targeted by distintigrate, the bag could but then the spellbook drops onto the ground.

[Person_Man]

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) is built to take down magical defenses, drain spells, and go supernova on casters with the Arcane Strike feat. The only problem is that against non-casters you're essentially a nerfed Rogue who needs to borrow spells and spell-like abilities from party members to be useful.

Incarnate can get Spell Resistance 5 + (4 * essentia invested) via the Spellward Shirt. It can be topped out at around SR 40ish with the right feats and magic items, making an Incarnate practically immune to most (but certainly not all) magic. He can also get a ridiculously huge number of bonus hit points, Evasion, Energy Resistance, and high AC (including high touch AC).

I would also mention that dozens, if not hundreds, of builds can get 300+ damage per round with a very high chance of success against pretty much any target. That's enough to kill almost anything. So all you really need to do is not be surprised and win Initiative.

[Eldariel]

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) is built to take down magical defenses, drain spells, and go supernova on casters with the Arcane Strike feat. The only problem is that against non-casters you're essentially a nerfed Rogue who needs to borrow spells and spell-like abilities from party members to be useful.

Incarnate can get Spell Resistance 5 + (4 * essentia invested) via the Spellward Shirt. It can be topped out at around SR 40ish with the right feats and magic items, making an Incarnate practically immune to most (but certainly not all) magic. He can also get a ridiculously huge number of bonus hit points, Evasion, Energy Resistance, and high AC (including high touch AC).

I would also mention that dozens, if not hundreds, of builds can get 300+ damage per round with a very high chance of success against pretty much any target. That's enough to kill almost anything. So all you really need to do is not be surprised and win Initiative.

But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.

And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.

[Tyndmyr]

But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.

And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.

First off, not every caster has Craft Contingent Spell. Even among those who do, using the full compliment every day would be inordinately expensive.

Therefore, a caster who is taken by surprise cannot be reasonably assumed to have a contingency in place to counter whatever tactic is used. He might, but a significant amount of luck would be involved.

[Drakevarg]

I dont mind if the DM isnt a master tactician, but i expect my 30 int wizard to be pretty dang good at figuring things out, thats probably surpassing even mentat levels of reasoning (dune reference, look it up for those who dont get it :P ) and my wizard is probably a whole heck of alot smarter than me.

My point was that there's no point in rolling for tactics if your DM couldn't think up any better tactics than you could.


And if you just drop it in a bookbag then it cant be targeted by distintigrate, the bag could but then the spellbook drops onto the ground.

Which makes as much sense as saying I could survive a disintegrate spell because I was wearing a shirt. :smallannoyed:

[Tyndmyr]

Which makes as much sense as saying I could survive a disintegrate spell because I was wearing a shirt. :smallannoyed:

Only if the shirt is so large that it entirely blocks all LoE to you.

Then yes, it would. Though at that point, you wouldn't really be wearing it, and the lack of LoE back would be a problem.

But yeah. Objects in the way do block things. That's not really a problem.

[Aharon]

Oh, just because it's hilarious (first read about that trick in a post by The Mad Linguist):

Knowledge Affiliation. You can take away abilities, Spellcasting is an Ex Ability (or natural, the debate isn't over yet, AFAIK), so you rob him of his casting powers for 1 minute. Works for anybody who has been a teacher in a church with knowledge domain for 15 years or longer :smallbiggrin:

The caster does get a save, though, Fort vs. 10+level+int modifier

[Emmerask]

Only if the shirt is so large that it entirely blocks all LoE to you.

Then yes, it would. Though at that point, you wouldn't really be wearing it, and the lack of LoE back would be a problem.

But yeah. Objects in the way do block things. That's not really a problem.

But if we go there then we should also call a wall with tapestry not Disintegrateable (with one cast) these are two different objects after all one covering the other.

A wall of stone proofs to be quite a formidable defense indeed consisting of millions of small objects which give each other cover (crafty bastards indeed!) :smallbiggrin:

A painted wall with its paint cover is evil too ^^

Also the Human skin consists of different layers of skin so Disintegrate should really be called super skin peal (of doom!)?

Anyway the point is this: for the sake of ease of use a pouch with stuff in it is one object, a pouch with stuff, which all gets Disintegrated if hit :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

First off, not every caster has Craft Contingent Spell. Even among those who do, using the full compliment every day would be inordinately expensive.

Therefore, a caster who is taken by surprise cannot be reasonably assumed to have a contingency in place to counter whatever tactic is used. He might, but a significant amount of luck would be involved.

Contingency can be triggered with simple "when I cast Nerveskitter" or "when I say X" or some such; no need for specific one for each scenario. All you need is a generic that teleports you away. Of course your main contingencies are Contingency and Instant Refuge. Crafted Contingencies are in place for when those fail. Optimally they shouldn't be necessary but if someone casts AMF next to you, you'll probably be happier that your contingency whisked you away and you spent some money than being stuck in said AMF.

[crizh]

Give him no reason to know you intend to make him dead, then at random cast Silenced Quickened True Strike and Silenced Disintegrate from behind. At his spellbook.

(Note: This can only be expected to work on actual wizards as played in-game, not the hyper-paranoid hypothetical superwizards that have contingency plans for everything that like to loiter around this forum...)

What is that, a level 15 caster?

How are you squeezing Ranged Sunder into that build?

AFAIK, RAW, you flat out cannot target an attended object with a Ray.

[Gametime]

Only if the shirt is so large that it entirely blocks all LoE to you.

Then yes, it would. Though at that point, you wouldn't really be wearing it, and the lack of LoE back would be a problem.

But yeah. Objects in the way do block things. That's not really a problem.

Even if it did block all LoE, it might not work. You can still cast spells on someone hiding behind a tower shield, for example, just by targeting the shield.

[Tyndmyr]

But if we go there then we should also call a wall with tapestry not Disintegrateable (with one cast) these are two different objects after all one covering the other.

A wall of stone proofs to be quite a formidable defense indeed consisting of millions of small objects which give each other cover (crafty bastards indeed!) :smallbiggrin:

A painted wall with its paint cover is evil too ^^

Also the Human skin consists of different layers of skin so Disintegrate should really be called super skin peal (of doom!)?

Anyway the point is this: for the sake of ease of use a pouch with stuff in it is one object, a pouch with stuff, which all gets Disintegrated if hit :smallwink:

No, no, objects are discrete items in 3.5. You don't get to claim that layers of skin are analogous to a book in a bag. Or an item in a chest. A tapestry COMPLETELY covering a wall would indeed block LoS and LoE to the wall. If you ever play ToH, this fact actually matters.

Paint on a wall is not normally treated as a discrete object in 3.5, but both a backpack and a spellbook are. Ignoring this would result in wierd things such as being able to scribe spells to your backpack.


Contingency can be triggered with simple "when I cast Nerveskitter" or "when I say X" or some such; no need for specific one for each scenario. All you need is a generic that teleports you away. Of course your main contingencies are Contingency and Instant Refuge. Crafted Contingencies are in place for when those fail. Optimally they shouldn't be necessary but if someone casts AMF next to you, you'll probably be happier that your contingency whisked you away and you spent some money than being stuck in said AMF.

This is true. However, nerveskitter is the only one listed that allows you to cast it when taken completely by surprise. With the aforementioned example, you will not know it's coming until you're literally hit by it.

And this requires the presupposition that the wizard is walking around with a contingency to instantly bail whenever he uses nerveskitter. It is MUCH more plausible to simply hide your spellbook than to instantly teleport away from any encounter.

[crizh]

OT, if Psions are tier 2 then Divert Teleport is a tactic I've been toying with for screwing with layered Contingent defences.

You don't attack the target directly but with a well rounded group of slightly less powerful patsies who are sufficiently threatening to start triggering the target's Contingencies.

Every time he uses something with the [Teleport] descriptor it's a DC~35 Will save to avoid the Lava Pit and the AMF.

Obviously doesn't work on anything with the Fire subtype but you get the idea. Adamantine cage on the ocean floor and an AMF is a good alternative.

[Tharck]

Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all) with a say, level 28 Fighter.

I'm actually willing to go so far as to give you 10 epic levels as an advantage. Methinks the Wizard will still win.

Lvl 1 Rogue, Level 29 Centaur Monk.
Stack WIS, DEX, and CON for items and stat set-up.
Choose +2 Will Save, Fort, and Ref feats.
Focus on raising UMD to maximum.
Purchase a couple wish scrolls (you're 30th level so you'll be starting with a lot more gp.)
Take deflect missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle.
Take the epic version of deflect any missle infinite times per day back at the caster.
Imp Init.
Endurance.
Feat for cannot fail Fort saves on a 1.
Feat to roll all Will saves as Fort saves.
Staff of Mindblank.
Wand of Dimensional Anchor.
Glove of Storing + Wand of Nerveskitter.
Scroll of Contigency level 18.
Scroll of Anti-Magic Shell.
Contigency when a Mage's Disjunction would effect you - Anti-Magic Shell.
Staff of Hunting: Discern Location, Greater Scry, Greater Teleport.
This is a generic build with generic items, nothing too optimized but it will give just about any caster a run for their money.

Saving throw wise you should be untouchable to the wizard.
He can use orb, but it will instantly be deflected and returned back onto him. He cannot land rays or Orbs.

This has a chance of killing a wizard. Even an optimized one.

If all else fails, shapechange into a Lich. Wear item which grants immunity to vacuum. Greater Teleport into space. Wish wizard to you.

Also you can use Discern Location to find the wizard (if he does not have mindblank up) and Wish for an accurate and well painted picture of that place. Then you can greater teleport there.

[Cogidubnus]

Without hombrew? Hard. I could give you dozens of ways to do it with. I love homebrew.

However, a high CHA character with Glibness has a shot. You send them a letter saying you have a proposition for them, organise to meet, use Glibness to ramp up your bluff skill so you can epic bluff to conceal your alignment (same as wizard's). Then add you Black Dog and Spymaster and shake their hand/give them a "powerful artifact" daubed in every poison out there. There are dozens of ways to get your poison powerful enough. Wisdom/charisma damage is one - once they're catatonic, just keep stabbing.

[ArcanistSupreme]

OT, if Psions are tier 2 then Divert Teleport is a tactic I've been toying with for screwing with layered Contingent defences.

You don't attack the target directly but with a well rounded group of slightly less powerful patsies who are sufficiently threatening to start triggering the target's Contingencies.

Every time he uses something with the [Teleport] descriptor it's a DC~35 Will save to avoid the Lava Pit and the AMF.

Obviously doesn't work on anything with the Fire subtype but you get the idea. Adamantine cage on the ocean floor and an AMF is a good alternative.

This is pretty solid, but the adamantine hat will cause a bit of a problem in both scenarios due to the AMF. It would probably be better to divert him/her nearby so you (and probably multiple others) could continue to effectively lock the wizard in place. Have some people blast away with dispel magic until the wizard is debuffed and then take him/her out. Maybe have some people readying dispel magic to counter spells he/she casts. To be effective, larger numbers would be ideal, but a smaller group optimized to do their jobs might work too.

[Tharck]

This is pretty solid, but the adamantine hat will cause a bit of a problem in both scenarios due to the AMF. It would probably be better to divert him/her nearby so you (and probably multiple others) could continue to effectively lock the wizard in place. Have some people blast away with dispel magic until the wizard is debuffed and then take him/her out. Maybe have some people readying dispel magic to counter spells he/she casts. To be effective, larger numbers would be ideal, but a smaller group optimized to do their jobs might work too.

You had me until (bold faced above) which no longer is a fair idea.

[okpokalypse]

Most Tier 2's with forethought can kill a Tier-1. There's a lot of "builds" and "tricks" that work. Some off the top of my head...

The Uber Telepath (Tier-2 Psion) who True Mind Switches with a Lilitu. He gains Cleric Domains / Spells as a 9th Level Caster, Alignment Ambiguity and, most importantly, Use Item all as Ex Abilities. Use Item is an auto-pass on a UMD check. With a staff you can attempt to use it at a given level and it always works. So a Staff of Benevolence, for example, always would put forther a Caster Level 10,000 Holy Word if the Psion so desired. Add in that a Psion can Dim Door or Teleport as a Swift Action and, well, it's mean... Worse than that, if you play the "fission" game, you've got two of you, so the "real" you is never at risk since he's likely divining target location while the other manifests the teleport & strikes w/ an unsavable spell from an item.

Then there's the Persisting Favored Soul, who should be Tier 1 IMO. Favored Soul + Sacred Exorcist & a smart feat chain = Persistent Spells at L9, or L12 more reasonably. Using Casting-Progressive PrCs going forward, this PC can (and will) have saves all exceeding 50 at L20, and at a hearty caster level when they're persisted. Often 32+. This means that it would take an Exceptional Tier-1 Caster to be able to affect removal of the Buffs short of a Disjunction - and ideally any caster has a "contingency" for that... At the high level they're keeping 6-8 Persists on them at least, and likely using Miracle to cajole a few off other lists (like Giant Size and Bite of the Werebear if they're Melee).

[Endarire]

Be a tier 2 caster.

[ArcanistSupreme]

You had me until (bold faced above) which no longer is a fair idea.

Obviously this isn't fair for the caster. If a DM does this, it's a pretty jerk move. But if players are looking to take down a wizard, this is a decent way to do it.

I'm also pretty sure that there are better ways to do it than mine.

[Crasical]

Question I've been meaning to ask. How useful (if at all) are the Occult Slayer PRC and the Mage Slayer -> Pierce Magical Protection feats on a fighter-type?

Mage Slayer looks like it's only useful combined with large-size or a reach weapon, since otherwise a mage can just take a 5 foot step out of your threatened squares and then cast without worrying about you bonking him over the head.

Pierce magical protection is nice since it lets you ignore armor from spells and dispel on a hit, but how much of a caster's actual mitigation comes from magical AC boosts?

[Kyrthain]

Step 1: Get leadership, max gather information/buy divination spell.

Step 2: Use gather information/divination to determine where the caster's contingent teleports are to. Construct a thoroughly solid object there.

Step 3: Have one minion throw a rock with antimagic field on it at the wizard, hopefully triggering his contingencies. This should have him teleport out, into the solid object/teleport fails (Not sure which is the case)

Step 4: if the wizard is still there, wail on him with your companions.

[Chrono22]

Ready an action to throw a knife at the bead created by a fireball the wizard is about to cast. Hit bead.
Kill wizard by having his own spell blow up in his face.

Alternatively, replace the knife with a permanently invisible, telekinetically levitated tower shield.

[Kyrthain]

Problem 1: The wizard ain't casting fireball at you

Problem 2: He'd be immune to fire/spells if he was

Problem 3: He'd also cast it before you got your knife out

[Chrono22]

1. Spell target is irrelevant.
2. No, not usually.
3. Readied action.

[Gametime]

I think the objection was more rooted in "the wizard won't be casting Fireball" than in "the wizard won't be casting Fireball at you specifically."

If all wizards did was cast Fireballs, we wouldn't have semiweekly threads arguing about how they can be dealt with.

[Chrono22]

yeah, I know
But wizards tend to brag about their powers, specifically with snippy one liners or monologues.
A wizard might not tell you what spell he is going to cast... but fireballs aren't an uncommon spell, and on some level the wizard's appearance and actions advertise his spell selection. A diviner probably won't be wearing fiery red robes, and he certainly won't shout out "Your souls shall burn with my arcane fire!"

Anyway, killing a wizard with his own magic has to be the most satisfying way of defeating a tier 1 character, that I've ever experienced.

[imp_fireball]

Play a Monk. The Wizard will be laughing so hard at your feeble attempt to kill him that he'll fumble his spells and you can snap his neck :smallamused:

Play a Sorcerer. Like a Wizard but Tier 2, target his spell list at Mage slaying.

Pixie Paladin 2/Monk 2/warblade X?

It'd help if there was a paladin variant that overrid contingincies as low as mid level *maybe something based off of witch hunting*.
----

A wizard could easily use telepathy (or use a spell to foresee the future or whatever) and scry. They could have all this as early as the time that they have contingincies and the ability to create magic items.

[Tiki Snakes]

I would have thought the way to go would be to find a single moment in his routine or his daily life where he isn't ready to teleport away if he is unexpectedly attacked, (Say, whilst buying his magical groceries, bat guano etc), and then ubercharge him.

If necessary, make sure he isn't aware you are present, then uber-charge from hiding.

Of course, if he does have nerve-skitter or so on then you're pretty much out of luck, and miss chances aren't going to help. Likewise if he's currently immune to HP damage, which I've heard is possible.

Perhaps it would help to have an uber-charging leadership posse, as It'd only really take one good hit to do him in.

Fully defence-focused optimised wizards will pretty much not be going down to anything short of Diplomancy, because quite frankly if they are doing it right, even the tier 2 caster stumbles because such a Wizard should have 20-celestial-questions divined till he knew of all such threats and had chance to prepare in advance.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Step 2: Use gather information/divination to determine where the caster's contingent teleports are to.

I sincerely doubt that the stereotypical paranoid wizard will ever tell anyone where his contingent teleport is going. The whole point is so he can regroup for a counterattack, and it'd be pretty stupid to make your escape plan common knowledge. If I were the DM, the only way that gather information work would be if you were torturing the wizard in question, and the information would kind of be redundant at that point.

The divinations would work if and only if the wizard forgot/didn't feel like using countermeasures.

[The Shadowmind]

How well could a Factotum using the lucid dreaming skill to enter the region of dreams with a single scroll of shapechange(UMD),and other overpowered spells then attack the wizard there?
You might need to find a way to get the wizard in the dreamheart if you managed to weaken him to make him dead.
The factotum's ability to "cast" spells under level 7 as a standard action or less could come in handy. If things go bad leave the Realm of dreams then reenter and you are fully healed, and reequipped as you started.

[crizh]

He doesn't need to tell anyone where his teleports go. You have patsies do an exploratory attack to trigger his contingencies and then use Trace Teleport to make his life short and painful.

[ArcanistSupreme]

He doesn't need to tell anyone where his teleports go. You have patsies do an exploratory attack to trigger his contingencies and then use Trace Teleport to make his life short and painful.

That would work if the wizard always set his contingency to teleport him to the same place. I wouldn't. If you kept doing it, though, you might be able to slowly whittle down the number of places he could teleport to safely or figure out a pattern.

[Hida Reju]

I am away from books at the moment but couldn't a lvl 20 Warlock optimized for his invocations with the damaging dispel invocation that does damage for every spell it destroys one shot a wizard with like 21 contingencies up?

That is not even counting the normal Improved mage armor, fly, and other spells that might be active.

[Lans]

Be a Factotum and bury the wizard under actions. Use extra standared actions to ready counters for his contingencies and celerity.

[penbed400]

Step 1: Be a Warlock
Step 2: Use WBL to buy scrolls of Mindrape and Love's Pain
Step 3: Kidnap peasant and Mindrape him into loving the target wizard
Step 4: Get/hire an Incantatrix buddy to lend your scroll of Love's Pain some metamagic powers such as maximize and empower or twin
Step 5: Use Love's Pain on peasant
Step 6: This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soDZBW-1P04)
Step 7: ???
Step 8: Profit

[Seffbasilisk]

I would extrapolate on the Mage-slayer build I've been plotting for a while now, but I know the DM I intend to run him under frequents these threads.

That said, pierce magical protection, pierce magical concealment. You've got one stab. Make it count.

Add in perhaps, Insightful Strike, and well...isn't there a Luck spell that counts your next roll as a nat 20?

Poisons are nice, but you want something to cripple casting, and keep him from moving.

[Frozen_Feet]

Isn't there a what, CR 9 creature with at-will disjunctions? (Adamantine Clockwork Horror or some such) Get some as pets, make them fire at the wizard.

[J.Gellert]

Really now, killing a single level 20 wizard could be the point of an entire campaign :smalltongue:

[darkpuppy]

The problem with killing a high level wizard is that, by definition, the best ways of killing him are all situational. Good example is one that most people have missed: Most of a wizard's offensive capability requires that teensy tiny little thing known as "Line of Sight", and the rest are incredibly risky to use. A good example of this is a little trick I call "The Hall of Pillars"... lots of pillars, close together, smallish space, but lots of room for a rogue to run around in. AMF scroll would be a good idea, because even with crafted contingency, as noted, there is a fairly good chance they won't work. Not a great chance, but a fair chance, and that's the best you're going to get.

Also in RAW (for 3.5 anyways) is that beautiful little thing called "Spring Attack". I cannot sing its praises highly enough, because it means you can attack in the middle of movement. If your movement is buffed (You would reasonably assume someone attacking a wizard to be at least *somewhat* buffed by magic items and the like), then you're gold. Guerilla style attacks while the poor bugger can't move away, and then can't see you because you're about 5 or 6 pillars away.

Now, for the most part, we've been discussing the highly paranoid wizard who spends several hours in the morning casting all sorts of rollocks on himself before he's ready to face the day. If it's the stay at home wizard, that's cool, but if he's an adventuring wizard, he's not going to have that chance every time. Plus, in 3.5, there is that magic period where if he does cast any spells, he's going to lose out tomorrow. That period is a whole 8 hours. As people have noted, this is essentially a big game of cat and mouse, and 8 hours is a nice time to whittle him down. Most players I know are incredibly cautious with their spellcasting during that time. Let's see, what else do we have scroll wise... oh, yes, there are indeed spells to prevent *any* teleportation, expensive, but well worth it in our "Hall of Pillars" scenario. Any contingency relies upon the spell working, and if you properly prepare the area moments beforehand by making sure they can't teleport away (a basic idea, I would have thought), or, even better, something nasty happens if they try, then you're gold. Lemme just poke through the RAW a bit for more ideas... But any decently levelled rogue will be able to kibble a wizard with casting of, first, some sort of scroll of teleport blocking (I believe there's a really nasty one in the RAW, expensive as all hell to buy as a scroll, but, against a high level wizard, a must), a scroll of AMF (which will deny them most of their abilities), and then kibble them at your leisure... to be honest, after you've teleport locked them, you don't really need anything else in the "Hall of Pillars" scenario, but AMF is nice insurance.

[Gametime]

...Why is the wizard in the Hall of Pillars at all? I mean, it's undeniably a great scenario to fight them in, but I'm not sure why you'd face them there at all.

And it isn't like wizards are without options. Calling spells are a good way to make sure you've got stuff you can do without line of effect. Heck, it's not like it's easy to keep track of the wizard in the Hall if he starts teleporting around a reasonable amount.

[Redshirt Army]

1. Be a rogue.

2. UMD a scroll of "Teleport through Time".

3. Kill the Wizard at Level 1.

4. ???

5. Profit Paradox!

[darkpuppy]

Well, somebody asked how to kill a wizard without being one, and that is, far and away, the best method. It doesn't require a hall of pillars (which can be found, judging by a lot of pre-printed adventures, in nearly any dungeon in existence, and a lot of other buildings too), it just needs somewhere where it's too dangerous to cast fireballs and the like, but also has lots of places a rogue can run to and from (preferably with Spring Attack) without being in LOS. Sure, there are some offensive spells that require LOS, but the fact is, he's teleport locked (which means he ain't goin' *anywhere*), he's AMFed (which means he's got no spellcasting), and nobody can call "**** move" because it's not a dead magic area, and the guy was specifically looking to kill him, so would have planned accordingly.

How you get them there is a problem, true. But once they're in the right spot, something not unlike that Hall of Pillars scenario, they're dead meat. One teleport lock scroll, one AMF scroll, kibble at leisure, all good.

[jseah]

@hall of pillars:
The wizard could easily demolish or bypass your hall (one maw of chaos and you can kiss your pillars goodbye, dispel/disjunction kills your anti-teleport). It's too easy to see it coming, and if the wizard is at all paranoid, he won't show up in that hall.
High level magic ignores location-based obstacles easily.


The way I see it, the wizard is playing a very unfair game (with respect to power levels, not to the challenge).
He has spells that help him strategically, retreat spells, I-ignore-your-attack spells, I-know-what/where/when/who spells, teleports and a secure base of operations (extradimensional/planar areas)
To beat that spent on defense, you need to be better at it than he is. And that means out-wizarding him.

In an actual campaign, any wizard on full defense could be impossible to kill but also operates at a fraction of his capacity than if he didn't have a perfect defense.

[darkpuppy]

That's the thing with wizards. I don't know what kind of games people have been playing, but I've never actually met this hypothetical uber-wizard people have been talking about. For example, you mention destroying the hall of pillars. Have you seriously met a character that paranoid? If so, what kind of killer GM did they play with?

EDIT: Because I really see this scenario happening... "OMG, *one* rogue hit me, I must use an incredibly destructive spell to hopefully kill him and/or level the playing field!"... what generally actually happens is "Oh, one rogue, let's try and find the bugger and silence him!"... another key point is that, with a rogue, with a decently high attack and damage roll, will silence said wizard on the first try. Against a rogue who gets his sneak attack, which does a minimum of 1d4+stupid D6 against 13D4 + a maximum of 13... Hrm, yeah, the guy's gonna survive.

The wizard is only playing an unfair game when he has time to prepare. Give him no chance to prepare, and he's screwed. Want him dead? attack him all day, then all night. He'll quickly run out of spells, and die horribly. Or, as already noted, Teleport Lock *then* AMF. No matter how paranoid they are, if there's a surprise round, they're disabled. That can be done with two people at most, who can then mercilessly slay the uppity git at their leisure.

And this, unsurprisingly, leads me to the main problem with this thread. We know nothing of the play style of this hypothetical wizard, and without knowing anything, can't actually help beyond stupidly elaborate plans with almost Fiat-like "No, but" reactions. For a good 80% of the 13th level or higher wizards I've played/run games in, nowhere near this amount of planning was necessary.

EDIT: I'm also surprised no-one caugh the flaw of "Teleport Lock then AMF"... Still, tbh, only teleport lock is actually *needed*, as the main problem is stopping them getting away. The rest is all making sure the bugger doesn't get off something stupidly powerful, like the previously mentioned "Maw of Chaos"... AMF would handle that, but then contingency *might* work (see? we're looking at might work, and people call it as "no, won't help at all")... the fact is, a wizard requiring this insane amount of planning is not fun.

EDIT 2: The maths of the first attack - Sneak attack damage, on a successful hit, at 13th level, is 1d6+7d6 for a short sword. This is between 8 and 48 damage. Compare this to a 13th level mage's hitpoints, which equal 4+12d4+(CON MODx13). Considering CON is often a dump stat for wizards, We're looking at between 15 (possibly even 14) and 78. The median here is 32.5, compared to the sneak attack median of 28. Regardless, within 2, maybe 3 attacks, the guy is down. The rogue may well die, but, let's face it, the wizard is dead and/or severely wounded, and can't go anywhere until the teleport lock is over and/or dispelled.

EDIT 3: Yes, Maw of Chaos is a really good idea, looking at it. No matter where he casts it from this hall of pillars, he's going to be somewhere in the AoE... which will kill him too.

[The Glyphstone]

If a wizard is dumping CON, they're morons and deserve to be murdered. Wizards are SAD (single-ability dependent) on INT...Dex isn't even necessary except for Rays while go against touch AC anyways. A wizard is going to have at least a 14 CON, more likely at least an 18+ with magic items.

[vrellum]

In my experience con is not a dump stat for wizards. It is their second highest. So a wizard will probably have around 59 hp (13d4+26) or more. Making it pretty hard for the rogue to kill him in one round, but possible if the rogue gets a surprise round and a full attack.

[darkpuppy]

I stand corrected on CON, but in any case, in any scenario even vaguely approximating that one, he's dead meat. You make sure he can't teleport, you make sure he can't use AoE, you kill him at your leisure, and, frankly, the rogue is the best man for the job, considering sneak attack.

EDIT: Also, if he doesn't know the teleport block spell's been cast, he won't know until the fatal moment of truth. Which will, indeed, be suitably fatal.

[Radar]

The problem is, you have to either use Dimensional Anchor on the wizard directly or force him into Dimensional Lock area, which is quite small. A psion with a readied Divert Teleport would be the best counter, but a psion is a full caster class, so it doesn't prove much. This is still doable - you made the wizard stay. Next part will be a lot harder: disable the wizard. The main problem with AMF is, it's a personal spell, so you have to cast it on yourself and hug the wizard, which might be difficult, since the wizard will already be aware of your presence.

The funniest thing about taking down a wizard is that in order to do so, you have to fake being a wizard yourself. Let's face it, without UMD, there would be no discussion. In a direct fight, it's wizard against WBL, so IMO the best solutions so far are indirect - diplomancy or getting yourself immune to divinations, obscure your alligment and do a classic poison/dagger assasination.

[darkpuppy]

Yeah, and, let's face it, even in RAW, there are some nice poisons. FR (which somebody else introduced into the discussion) has even more. Of course, one sneak attack with certain Drowish poisons, one failed CON check, and BAM! No more spellcasting!

[137beth]

The problem is, you have to either use Dimensional Anchor on the wizard directly or force him into Dimensional Lock area, which is quite small. A psion with a readied Divert Teleport would be the best counter, but a psion is a full caster class, so it doesn't prove much. This is still doable - you made the wizard stay. Next part will be a lot harder: disable the wizard. The main problem with AMF is, it's a personal spell, so you have to cast it on yourself and hug the wizard, which might be difficult, since the wizard will already be aware of your presence.

The funniest thing about taking down a wizard is that in order to do so, you have to fake being a wizard yourself. Let's face it, without UMD, there would be no discussion. In a direct fight, it's wizard against WBL, so IMO the best solutions so far are indirect - diplomancy or getting yourself immune to divinations, obscure your alligment and do a classic poison/dagger assasination.

For this thread, I am assuming that the wizard is not prepared specifically for this fight, but you ARE. The wizard hasn't necessarily prepared Maw of Chaos just because they are in the hall of pillars. The rogue-method mentioned above works well because the wizard is not expecting the attack.

[darkpuppy]

Actually, the only original specifications were Tier 1 (AKA Lvl 13+) and "Adequate prepared defences." To which the rogue method is actually a bit overkill. But hey, the important parts are covered:

1) Make sure LOS isn't given in most rounds.
2) Make sure AOE isn't an option.
3) Make sure teleporting out isn't an option.
4) Kill him dead.

[Gametime]

You forgot "get a high enough touch AC or other protection against attacks so that you won't be stunned, blinded, or just knocked unconscious by a readied action ray the wizard throws at you after you attack."

[olentu]

It is really missing some of the most important things such as finding the wizard or since it requires a set location getting the wizard to actually go to the location on your terms without foreknowledge of the attack. Not to mention the parts it does cover it does not do such a good job on doing so.

[darkpuppy]

I sort of had the impression from the OP that the wizard's location was already known. As to touch attack, so long as the wizard doesn't find you (which is a problem that can be solved with more rogues) you're not requiring it. And seriously, any rogue with a sideline in killing wizards is going to have protection against magic, be it spell resistance amulet of plus stupid, or some other gubbins.

And I am curious, olentu, as to what specific problems you'd like to raise with the solution I presented. Are they adequate defenses, or rules, or "paranoid wizard" defence? Getting the wizard to go to the location can be done in any number of ways without arousing the poor sod's suspicions.

EDIT: Sudden realisation. 3 rogues, 1 behind, 2 flanking, if you do it just right (two of the rogues aided by something to conceal them from the inopportune spot check in addition to the listen check the first rogue may well have to be kitted against), it's a triple surprise attack.

[olentu]

I sort of had the impression from the OP that the wizard's location was already known. As to touch attack, so long as the wizard doesn't find you (which is a problem that can be solved with more rogues) you're not requiring it. And seriously, any rogue with a sideline in killing wizards is going to have protection against magic, be it spell resistance amulet of plus stupid, or some other gubbins.

And I am curious, olentu, as to what specific problems you'd like to raise with the solution I presented. Are they adequate defenses, or rules, or "paranoid wizard" defence? Getting the wizard to go to the location can be done in any number of ways without arousing the poor sod's suspicions.

Well first of all if the wizards location is known that does not mean he is in the elaborate trap and it does not mean that it will stay known for long. One of the best defenses is keeping people you dislike from knowing where you are so the wizard will probably move around a lot and thus one needs some way to get the wizard into the elaborate trap. Also one needs to consider that being a wizard and being best when prepared divination is likely to play a factor and if being discounted there would need to be a reason.

One also needs to for example show how they are going to keep the wizard from just walking out of either the room or the dimensional lock. The lock is easy to walk out of being an emanation since one can thus just walk behind a pillar. There then there are alternative movement modes to consider.

Then there is also the assumption that the wizard is going to blindly walk into a shimmering emerald field without figuring out what it is first or not notice getting hit with a magic ray.

Then there are questions of astral projections, bound and animated minions, purchased or created minions, and probably several other things that I am forgetting.

[darkpuppy]

Now those are, for the most part, reasonable questions, and thank you for raising them. Animal companions and summoned monsters are the worst, I'll agree.

To be honest, the main philosophy when dealing with a wizard is to alpha strike the guy before he can react (IE- in a single surprise round, which, practically, only three thieves sneak attacking at once can do without recourse to other wizards). As to not constantly knowing where the wizard is, I agree, this is a problem, but with a reasonable lure, not an insurmountable one. The trick there is to make sure the lure reaches the wizard, and making sure the bugger bites.

[Dada]

As has been pointed out, there is no sure way to kill a über-wizard. Celerity, Teleport, Contigencies and Nerveskitter gives him too many outs, even when surprised. That doesn't mean you can't beat him, however. You can still win the encounter.

So, you're dungeon crawling to find the MacGuffin. Bruce Wayne, the wizard shows up to stop you from (doing plot relevant stuff). If you trigger his contigencies or make him teleport out in some other way, well, you might not have killed him, but he didn't stop you from doing what you wanted either. If he stays and fights, well, then it'll probably be the most difficult fight of your career, but as long as the wizard actually wants to stay and fight, he can be killed.

If the wizard is not trying to stop you, but you have to stop him, then it's the same situation. If he teleports out, then he'll be at least inconvenienced, hopefully more. If he actually has to stay and fight to achieve his goal of world domination, then you might kill him if you're good enough.

Bottom line, you can't reliably kill über-wizard, but sometimes you don't have to. Get him in a situation, where he can't afford to just run away once things get threatening.

[Jarrick]

How to beat a wizard with a dread necromancer.

Step 1: Find the bodies of several departed storm giants in a storm giant burial ground. Make them your skeletal minions. (Alternately, use planar binding to summon jarilith demons (MM2) and do the same. Augmented critical 18-20/x3 on 2 claws 2d6 and bite 2d8 ftw. Bonus points if you can make them bone creatures and rebuke to control two or more of them to retain pounce and rake and othe special stuff.)

Step 2: Befriend the target wizard, offering to be his cohort and obey his every awsome whim. Since wizards like nothing more than to be flattered by thier lessers, he will gladly accept. Maxing out bluff doesnt hurt either.

Step 3: Offer to use your necrotic cyst (libris mortis) spells to control an astral dreadnaught (Manual of the planes) to use against the wizards enemies if he could just use planar binding to conjure it in so your storm giants can subdue it. Bluff is a class skill for the dread necromancer.

Step 4: Once it regains consciousness after being encysted, use your 7th level necrotic tumor spell to make the A.D. look at the wizard with its 150ft antimagic eye cone from above while your storm giants grapple and stab the wizard with very big spears. (Spears and other peircing weapons tend to leave corpses in good shape for animating).

Step 5: (Optional) Take the wizard's dungeon for your own and use the wizard's intact skeleton to serve drinks to your guests and the rest of your adventuring party.

(Actually happened in game, more or less.)

[olentu]

How to beat a wizard with a dread necromancer.

Step 1: Find the bodies of several departed storm giants in a storm giant burial ground. Make them your skeletal minions. (Alternately, use planar binding to summon jarilith demons (MM2) and do the same. Augmented critical 18-20/x3 on 2 claws 2d6 and bite 2d8 ftw. Bonus points if you can make them bone creatures and rebuke to control two or more of them to retain pounce and rake and othe special stuff.)

Step 2: Befriend the target wizard, offering to be his cohort and obey his every awsome whim. Since wizards like nothing more than to be flattered by thier lessers, he will gladly accept. Maxing out bluff doesnt hurt either.

Step 3: Offer to use your necrotic cyst (libris mortis) spells to control an astral dreadnaught (Manual of the planes) to use against the wizards enemies if he could just use planar binding to conjure it in so your storm giants can subdue it. Bluff is a class skill for the dread necromancer.

Step 4: Once it regains consciousness after being encysted, use your 7th level necrotic tumor spell to make the A.D. look at the wizard with its 150ft antimagic eye cone from above while your storm giants grapple and stab the wizard with very big spears.

Step 5: (Optional) Take the wizard's dungeon for your own and use the wizard's intact skeleton to serve drinks to your guests and the rest of your adventuring party.

(Actually happened in game, more or less.)

Eh if the wizard is that foolish you could probably just win by walking up and casting antimagic field off a scroll.

[Gametime]

Actually, assuming the wizard is an NPC, it's a perfectly valid tactic. NPCs have few defenses against absurd Bluff or Diplomacy checks, except absurd Sense Motive checks or DM fiat.

Of course, there's always Zone of Truth, and any sufficiently paranoid wizard would probably make you repeat your summoning plan in one.

[darkpuppy]

Actually, assuming the wizard is an NPC, it's a perfectly valid tactic. NPCs have few defenses against absurd Bluff or Diplomacy checks, except absurd Sense Motive checks or DM fiat.

Of course, there's always Zone of Truth, and any sufficiently paranoid wizard would probably make you repeat your summoning plan in one.

And this is why I showed that one plan and have largely left the thread except to see if anyone can agree on a better method... those words "sufficiently paranoid", which seems to imply every PC above Lvl 10 is a bundle of nerves leaping at every encounter... It kinda annoys me that every single plan made so far has some spell that people suddenly bring up, forgetting several things about magic, since we're talking about wizards:

1) The 2 pages per level of spell in spellbook, avg spellbook being 100 pages, avg page cost for writing = 100gp. 1 page per 0 lvl spell.
2) Any decent GM is not going to be handing out spells like candy.
3) Any decent GM is not going to make players this paranoid.
4) That magic 8 hours where any "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to cast any spells unless he's on the brink of death, for fear of losing his potential the next day.
5) Limited spell memorisation per day. A "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to be able to fight his way out of a paper bag if he has *all* these defensive/highly situational spells memorised. And remember, zone of truth works both ways. If a genuine messenger turns up and he regularly casts zone of truth, the local rulers and wizards are going to shun the bugger.

EDIT: and Zone of Truth is a Cleric/Paladin spell!!!

[Kyrthain]

I don't think this scenario is dealing with a standard pc wizard anymore, but rather the archetypal paranoid batman. This wizard's certainly got a blessed book to hold all his spells, and as he is functioning on RAW alone, eliminating 2 and 3.

As for 4: Rope Trick

And finally, he'll have a ton of contingencies, so spells memorized/day will have more options

All of your points are perfectly valid against wizards living under the rules of a sane DM, but in this hypothetical scenario, the wizard has the advantage.

[Gametime]

1) The 2 pages per level of spell in spellbook, avg spellbook being 100 pages, avg page cost for writing = 100gp. 1 page per 0 lvl spell.

Which is why a Blessed Book is a great investment. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/wondrousitems.htm#blessedBook)


2) Any decent GM is not going to be handing out spells like candy.

That has nothing to do with the capabilities of a wizard, though. Further, there are actually rules in the DMG for availability of items in cities of a certain size. Access to a metropolis is access to the vast majority of scrolls. Denying access to these is fine for a campaign, but not for judging the theoretical capabilities of a wizard. Since we're talking about a theoretical wizard, not a specific one, individualized DM fiat doesn't really enter into it.


3) Any decent GM is not going to make players this paranoid.

Why is it that wizards who prepare elaborate defense mechanisms are considered unreasonable, but a rogue who designs an elaborate trap involving a specific type of architecture, several feats, and multiple scrolls isn't?


4) That magic 8 hours where any "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to cast any spells unless he's on the brink of death, for fear of losing his potential the next day.

Those magic eight hours are going to be spent in a Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) as soon as the wizard can cast 7th level spells. This one doesn't even really count as "paranoid;" immunity to ambushes while vulnerable is just good common sense for any wizard, whether adventuring or retired.


5) Limited spell memorisation per day. A "sufficiently paranoid" wizard isn't going to be able to fight his way out of a paper bag if he has *all* these defensive/highly situational spells memorised. And remember, zone of truth works both ways. If a genuine messenger turns up and he regularly casts zone of truth, the local rulers and wizards are going to shun the bugger.

Two things.

First of all, wizards get a lot of spells by the mid to high levels. Just saying "Oh, he won't have enough spells!" rings a little hollow. We haven't even been discussing that many specific spells; an active Contingency and some form of teleportation should be satisfactory for the majority of days. Fill up your slots with some save-or-dies and no-save-just-die spells and you're set.

Second, scrolls provide a reasonably cheap way to keep fringe or situational spells on hand at all times without needing to spend spell slots on them.


EDIT: and Zone of Truth is a Cleric/Paladin spell!!!

And it's pretty darn cheap to hire someone to cast it. I didn't suggest that wizards use Zone of Truth all the time, every time someone speaks to them. But if someone says they want you to summon a powerful outsider with antimagic capabilities, it would be extremely foolish not to bother verifying their story.


I don't think this scenario is dealing with a standard pc wizard anymore, but rather the archetypal paranoid batman. This wizard's certainly got a blessed book to hold all his spells, and as he is functioning on RAW alone, eliminating 2 and 3.


Even if you aren't hyper-paranoid, why wouldn't you buy a Blessed Book? It eliminates annoying microfinances. That's nothing but a good thing, not from a power perspective but from a laziness perspective! :smalltongue:

[olentu]

[And it's pretty darn cheap to hire someone to cast it. I didn't suggest that wizards use Zone of Truth all the time, every time someone speaks to them. But if someone says they want you to summon a powerful outsider with antimagic capabilities, it would be extremely foolish not to bother verifying their story.

Yeah this is basically what I mean. Wizards have many ways to investigate and with a bit of work can get many more. Not investigating a plan that puts you in the room with some guy controlling a big antimagic monster is beyond foolish.

Not to mention that it would have been better for the wizard to mind control the monster himself even if the dread necromancer had been completely loyal. This is because in one case an enemy using some method of controlling the dread necromancer gets a free astral dreadnought and in the other the just the dread necromancer.

[darkpuppy]

I have, it must be said, never met this "paranoid batman" wizard which these guys are obviously referring to, nor, indeed the trapsmith rogue who spends several weeks making a trap for a random encounter (or so it seems). I have never encountered this "Blessed Spellbook", but it sounds like a bit OP to me... after all, half the reason the wizard is not OP is because they don't have access to every single bloody spell they encounter. It's perfectly fine for NPCs to build stupidly elaborate traps, but the point here is people want challenge, not the Ungodly Paranoid Batman Wizard of DM Fiat.

As to Magnificent Mansion, he can, by RAW, only cast that once every two days, because once he's cast a 7th level spell in that magic 8 hours *before* his rest and remembering, it's gone for the next day. So half the time, he's at any bugger's mercy every night. Unless he casts a lesser level "safe home" spell, which will still leave him out a spell. As to the spells he has remaining, if he goes with a teleport spell, that's instantly nixed in the Hall of Pillars Surprise Round. Go Team Murderer. I've also never heard of this "stacked contingency" thing people are banging on about here, all I know for sure is that Contingency is a 6th level spell (one of his 2), and lasts 1 day/level or until discharged, and does not allow further contingency spells cast upon it. Looking at the core PHB, the wiz has a choice of Teleport (5th), or Teleport without Error (7th, which, by olunte's theory, he won't have.)

The fact is, all these spells are worth jack with three rogues, one surprise round, and one teleport blocking spell (which may or may not require a fourth bloke. What the hell, why not?). As already noted, the hard part is getting them there, but unless the wizard truly is a hyper-paranoid Batman Wizard, the right lure means they come like an insect to a sundew.

And where did this summon outsider business come from?

[DranWork]

Surely in D&D there's a way to turn back time, if so go back to when its an infant in its mothers womb and murder the mother. We must put a stop to the wizard threat before they become a wizard after all.

[Frozen_Feet]

You might want to give it a rest now. A wizard with unlimited spell access and enough time is theoretically omnipotent and omniscient. Yes, in practice, there is a limit to what any person can think of or prepare, leaving enough leeway for the potential destruction of a wizard character - but since there is a near-limitless number of combinations of possible situation, trying to nail down a general strategy is pointless, because there is none.

If you have exact level, spell knowledge, location and other resources known for a Tier 1 character, there's a possible tactic for that situation. Otherwise you're trying to score between moving goalposts.

(Those extra Contingencies are Crafted, which are just that. You can have per character level. I remember jack squat about rules governing them besides that.)

[olentu]

The blessed book is a core magical item so while it may have never come up it is not uncommon.

It is not 8 hours before rest but rather 8 hours before spending that one hour to prepare and so not a problem unless one is interrupting their rest and casting spells. But even if it was a problem magical mansion is 2 hours per level and so has more than enough time for waiting before getting spells even if it was a problem.

The stacked contingencies would probably be from crafted contingent spells and other things such as instant refuge that allow for contingent spells.

And again you have still not given any reason that a wizard is going to blindly walk into some room without proper precautions. So what would make a wizard charge into a large pillared hall without any precaution, divination, minions, scouting, and so forth. Not to mention with a contingency worded quite badly. Really anything that pressing is obviously so important that if the wizard fails the whole multiverse is destroyed or something on that level. And if it is that important then the wizard had better well be as careful as possible being the last hope for all life.



Now that I think about it in light of this "Really? Well then please elaborate how will you kill a level 20 optimized Wizard (PrCs and all)" the discussion should really be about a level 20 wizard.


The summoning outsiders was about a dread necromancer and a foolish wizard.

[darkpuppy]

Well said, Frozen Feet. Removing myself from the thread. One interesting note about contingencies: It requires a focus to be carried on them, or the contingency doesn't work. Frickin' A.

[Hida Reju]

Well I found the Warlock invocation I was looking for Voracious dispelling it's a greater charm that acts like dispel magic and does damage equal to the lvl of ever dispelled spell on the target. No save on damage done.

If some wizard is crazy enough to have even 10 craft contingent spells up not counting any other buffs averaging lvl 4 spells that is a potential 40 points of damage not counting removing said contingencies.

I think by optimizing you can get the +to your dispel high enough to crush most spells by that time. Sure it would not work past lvl 15 but at 13 or bellow it has a decent chance of working on multiple spells. Especially if the caster lvl of the crafted contingent spells was lowered to save cost.

[Claudius Maximus]

You might want to give it a rest now. A wizard with unlimited spell access and enough time is theoretically omnipotent and omniscient. Yes, in practice, there is a limit to what any person can think of or prepare, leaving enough leeway for the potential destruction of a wizard character - but since there is a near-limitless number of combinations of possible situation, trying to nail down a general strategy is pointless, because there is none.

If you have exact level, spell knowledge, location and other resources known for a Tier 1 character, there's a possible tactic for that situation. Otherwise you're trying to score between moving goalposts.

(Those extra Contingencies are Crafted, which are just that. You can have per character level. I remember jack squat about rules governing them besides that.)

This is very true. I was considering making a short campaign/one-shot in which you guys try to kill a 20th level tier 1 caster of my design without resorting to tier 1 casting (you know, one of those Doc Roc style "test" games), but I realized that even if I won, people would just complain that it's invalid because you could have used such-and-such or that I was using tactics too cheesy to prove anything, ect.

I think this is an argument that can never really end. If people are playing at a reasonable level of optimization, a T1 character can be beat by some method or other. If we're going above PO though, everything becomes so arbitrarily large or infinite, and everyone is so powerful, that it's impossible to make any sort of point stick.

[137beth]

True, you do not know what the wizard has prepared. But they also do not know what you have prepared. Therefore, if you use a strategy that "works unless they use this one spell", you have a legitimate chance of winning. Now, if you will only except an absolute guaranteed win, then it is impossible no matter what tier each character is: a commoner still has a chance to beat a wizard if the wizard rolls a natural 1 on every roll and the commoner rolls a natural 20 every time:|

[Jarrick]

And it's pretty darn cheap to hire someone to cast it. I didn't suggest that wizards use Zone of Truth all the time, every time someone speaks to them. But if someone says they want you to summon a powerful outsider with antimagic capabilities, it would be extremely foolish not to bother verifying their story.

Zone of truth? By an npc caster? That has a will save of what, 13? I suppose the DrN could roll a one...:smalltongue:

But anyways. Batman wizard has one disadvantage that I've noticed as this discussion goes on: No one person has a perfect solution to everything. Everyone has a lot of good tricks and strategies for the paranoid batman wizard, but I dont think anyone here can name every single one of them, or always be able to think of them in advance or on the spot when the need arises. Wizards are only as powerful as the players can make them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the batman wizard were played by the playground, it would always win, but if played by any single person, there's room for error which a clever PC could exploit.

I also agree that these wizards can be defeated on a case-by-case basis, based on mitigating factors and circumstances. The wizard in my previous example was trying to fight a losing war against several good-aligned churches (read: clerics and paladins who didnt like his dealing with and use of fiends and evil dragons to wage war) and needed all the help he could get.

[The Gilded Duke]

Neutral Human Expert

Skills: Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, Use Psionic Device, Gather Information, Knowledge Planes, Spellcraft, Disguise

Dorje of Divert Teleportation, Wands of Magic Aura. Make sure to stay disguised and hidden when necessary. Keep all your magical gear aurafied to make it not show up as magical. You yourself have no aura from abilities or race.

Keep the Dorje in a Wand Sheath (or hide it in some other method if dm doesn't allow dorje's in wand sheaths) in say a quarterstaff.

Keep yourself disguised at all times. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm
Per the SRD if you don't draw attention to yourself observers don't even get a spot check. Even if they do get suspicious, it isn't difficult to out skillmonkey a wizard. The only way to notice your unusual gear should be if someone casts identify on you, a precaution which has not yet been mentioned.

Tail the wizard. Change disguise when necessary. You might lose them a few times, but with enough gather information and divination you should be able to find them again.

If he is never in a public location use hide move silently and darkstalker instead.

When you are ready pull out of line of sight, but still within 50 feet, cast Divert Teleport and wait for him to teleport away. If it would be useful have mercenaries / leadership minions attack at this time. Teleport him into one of the above mentioned traps.

The major flaw in this is vulnerability to detect thoughts, but you should be able to detect that with spellcraft, and you have a few rounds before he starts reading your surface thoughts. In that time you should be able to break line of sight or pull out of the area.

If you want to be even more sure, go seven levels of Spymaster to gain EX protections against Detect Alignment and Detect Thoughts, as well as a bonus on saves vs scrying.

[The Rabbler]

how has no one brought up aboleth mucus? all you need is a fighter with a few thousand gold and the trow anything feat.

1. obtain item of unseen servant.
2. give bag of 19 aboleth mucus' to the unseen servant.
3. ready action to throw second bag of 50 aboleth mucus' at wizard in the event of a contingency/celerity.
4. have unseen servant drop bag on top of wizard.
5. wizard either takes it or dimension door/abrupt jaunt/teleport.
6. throw second sack of aboleth mucus.
7. wizard eventually fails save.
8. ??????????
9. profit.

(If the wizard teleports miles away, I'd consider that a victory for the fighter.)

[olentu]

Zone of truth? By an npc caster? That has a will save of what, 13? I suppose the DrN could roll a one...:smalltongue:

But anyways. Batman wizard has one disadvantage that I've noticed as this discussion goes on: No one person has a perfect solution to everything. Everyone has a lot of good tricks and strategies for the paranoid batman wizard, but I dont think anyone here can name every single one of them, or always be able to think of them in advance or on the spot when the need arises. Wizards are only as powerful as the players can make them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the batman wizard were played by the playground, it would always win, but if played by any single person, there's room for error which a clever PC could exploit.

I also agree that these wizards can be defeated on a case-by-case basis, based on mitigating factors and circumstances. The wizard in my previous example was trying to fight a losing war against several good-aligned churches (read: clerics and paladins who didnt like his dealing with and use of fiends and evil dragons to wage war) and needed all the help he could get.

A better choice would have been discern lies on a person that has been completely stripped of all magic (checked by commune) followed by a confirmation of the results by commune. Then a mindrape and programmed amnesia to be really sure. Then more communes to be sure those worked. Some contact other planes for further checking. A few auguries would have not hurt.

Of course for the previously mentioned reason I would have mind controlled the monster myself (well I would have not bothered with it to begin with so the situation is meaningless) to avoid a 2 for one deal for my enemies so the situation would have never come up. And of course when summoning the monster I would have had enough protections in place that should it try to attack it would be dead before anyone else got a turn or if those failed I would be gone before getting in the field with proper contingencies (not necessarily the spell). But not caring about getting such a monster the situation would have not happened.


But then again should I have played the wizard so foolishly it would have been a deliberate choice on my part. And if a deliberate choice then it really doe snot apply to the situation at hand since I assume this is not a discussion about killing high level casters that act like fools.

[Jarrick]

A better choice would have been discern lies on a person that has been completely stripped of all magic (checked by commune) followed by a confirmation of the results by commune. Then a mindrape and programmed amnesia to be really sure. Then more communes to be sure those worked. Some contact other planes for further checking. A few auguries would have not hurt.

Of course for the previously mentioned reason I would have mind controlled the monster myself (well I would have not bothered with it to begin with so the situation is meaningless) to avoid a 2 for one deal for my enemies so the situation would have never come up. And of course when summoning the monster I would have had enough protections in place that should it try to attack it would be dead before anyone else got a turn or if those failed I would be gone before getting in the field with proper contingencies (not necessarily the spell). But not caring about getting such a monster the situation would have not happened.


But then again should I have played the wizard so foolishly it would have been a deliberate choice on my part. And if a deliberate choice then it really doe snot apply to the situation at hand since I assume this is not a discussion about killing high level casters that act like fools.

Easy big guy, just saying there's room for human error. And I think those commune spells just cost your character a level (or a mint to have them cast for him).

Plus your mind controlling magics stood a chance of failing, both from saves and from the creature's SR, and since all your spells are tied up in "contingencies" you cant cast it as many times as it takes like a DrN can, nor can you get the confirmation from an unconscious creature that the charm spell succeeded unlike the sudden appearance of a giant cyst gives. Besides that, even if it makes its save against the 7th level necrotic tumor spell, it is effected as if by a suggestion spell. I suppose the wizard could take that feat and get those spells too, but those spells are generally considered "Suboptimal" (or at least I've never seen them in a very positive light) so he probably wouldnt. Besides, exactly how do you react to "It opens its eye and looks at you, your magic doesnt work now"?

And as for not caring for getting such a monster, when your keep is surrounded on a daily basis by good clerics, some flying antimagic is a godsend. (pun not intended). He could run away, but then what? His keep is captured and his ambitions squashed. He has failed in his mission to rule the world, but I suppose he could keep trying from there with his hidden spellbook and what-have-you, but he's out of your hair for a while at least.

[olentu]

Easy big guy, just saying there's room for human error. And I think those commune spells just cost your character a level (or a mint to have them cast for him).

Plus your mind controlling magics stood a chance of failing, both from saves and from the creature's SR, and since all your spells are tied up in "contingencies" you cant cast it as many times as it takes like a DrN can, nor can you get the confirmation from an unconscious creature that the charm spell succeeded unlike the sudden appearance of a giant cyst gives. Besides that, even if it makes its save against the 7th level necrotic tumor spell, it is effected as if by a suggestion spell. I suppose the wizard could take that feat and get those spells too, but those spells are generally considered "Suboptimal" (or at least I've never seen them in a very positive light) so he probably wouldnt. Besides, exactly how do you react to "It opens its eye and looks at you, your magic doesnt work now"?

And as for not caring for getting such a monster, when your keep is surrounded on a daily basis by good clerics, some flying antimagic is a godsend. (pun not intended)

Well sure it is possible the wizard could be defeated and even if not the DM could err in playing someone smarter then anyone ever. But the thing I am responding to is that the counters presented are really simple and with a bit of forethought and preparation can be circumvented or would just not ever come up. If the proposed strategies were ones that I considered more robust I would not have such a problem with them but of the two I have responded to they both seem to have a stupid wizard doing really stupid things without any planning or consideration as to what might go wrong.

[dextercorvia]

Illumian DreadNecromancer1/Fighter20. Able Learner -- Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcane are easy enough now. Naenhoon Heighten + Extra Slot for nines. (Use the standard feats for this and metamagic). Arcane Disciple (or Extra Spell if its used that way in your campaign) to taste. Chaos Shuffle the Fighter Bonus Feats away @ Level 21 for Epic Spellcasting, and Improved Spell Capacity X times.

If you can't take out a nonepic T1 with Epic Spells, level 18 spells, and Epic WBL, then you should try to make nice instead.

[jseah]

The way I play wizards, and so do most of my group, is not unlike a special ops team.

Scout first, using divinations if necessary, and try not to let them know you're scouting. Detect magic/Arcane Sight permanent is always around.
When you're ready, you nova, fast and hard.
A static defense cannot handle this. Overland flight, persistent G.Invisibility, Mindblank (countering see invis) makes almost everything not work. For those that still do, being on the Ethereal plane does the rest. Note, you can scout perfectly well from the Ethereal since you can "see" from the Ethereal into the Prime.
And of course, the initial strike is powerful. Summoned monsters (illusioned to look like you) creating a diversion, or open with an AoE nuke like Maw of Chaos/Disjunction (with quickened CC spells), or simply bypass completely via Ethereal/Teleport/Phase Door/Burrowing. The choice of strategy depends on your information.

One wizard/incantatrix/Iot7V can have ALL of that. At the same time. And still be immune to most mundane attacking methods. (mundane including shadowpouncing and meta-orbs of death)
- Note: one of my friends is playing that wiz/incant/Iot7V thing right now

I mean, unless you lock down the whole plane or something similarly ridiculous, the wizard has too much mobility to do much about him.
By planeshift, physical obstacles... are not.
Of course, this assumes that the wizard is a PC, played like a PC to it's full potential.


To be honest, the main philosophy when dealing with a wizard is to alpha strike the guy before he can react (IE- in a single surprise round, which, practically, only three thieves sneak attacking at once can do without recourse to other wizards).
That is of course, how it works. Disjunction + action nova works in almost all cases. While dodging him doing the same back to you.

I also wouldn't go so far as to say that the wizard is completely unassailable. A similar thread on BG I read before had a working build involving a barbarian with Insta-rage -> Imperious Command for an instant stunlock before initiative.

You just need to out-nova him, either by going first or by having more actions than he has. Very hard to do without being a caster of some kind.
EDIT:
Level 30 anything will kill a level 20 wizard simply by just having epic feats and items. Epic is broken.

[Radar]

True, you do not know what the wizard has prepared. But they also do not know what you have prepared. Therefore, if you use a strategy that "works unless they use this one spell", you have a legitimate chance of winning. Now, if you will only except an absolute guaranteed win, then it is impossible no matter what tier each character is: a commoner still has a chance to beat a wizard if the wizard rolls a natural 1 on every roll and the commoner rolls a natural 20 every time:|
Actually most encounters can be solved with generally useful spells. Spells like Teleport, Dimension Door, Invisibility (or Greater), Nerveskitter, Celerity are good to have on any given day - possibly more then one casting of each even.

The whole rogue ambush falls apart, if the wizard decides to for example use the Tinfoil Hat trick, which is again useful in many dangerous situations and doesn't require elaborate preparations.

There are also spells, that are practically "You lose, no save" - for example Forcecage (not likely to be prepared, but likely to be on a scroll at hand).

Also: forcing a wizard to escape is wining a battle, but it would most likely be a lost war, since he will probably prepare a scry and die retaliation.

A Warlock with Voracious Dispelling might actually have a shot at hurting the wizard, but it's hard to say, if it would be enough.

@dextercorvia
1. If you are bringing in epic spellcasting, then it's ICBM tag game.
2. If you are using that level of cheese, then it should be answered with equal ammounts of gouda on the other side and there is a lot more to achieve in 21 levels then just epic spellcasting. For example: you don't have to waste 20 levels on fighter, when for 3000 gp you can visit Otyugh Hole and get an extra feat.

[jseah]

I dug up the thread.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0

The links on the first post detail 2 or 3 different wizards with varying levels of cheese.

[dextercorvia]

@Radar -- No you don't need to waste levels on fighter, but you can. I chose Fighter because someone earlier in the thread said that a Fighter X levels higher than a Wiz should be able to take him out. This is the answer that I perceive to this question.

My point is that Epic Any Class vs. Non-Epic Wizard, the Epic guy has the chance to access Epic Spells, and once he has researched the Destroy This Particular Wizard With No Save No Matter Where He Is Spell, game is pretty much over. Fighter just gets there easier, because of his one class feature. One feat from the O-Hole can't compare with the 11 extra from fighter. Sure you could dip Swashbuckler/Marshal/PsyWar/FeatRogue etc. and get a feat every level, but I was aiming for the simple answer. Marshal is particularly nice, because you can have ninth level spells at 4th level, with him.

[Chipp Zanuff]

(If the wizard teleports miles away, I'd consider that a victory for the fighter.)

I don't, as the Wizard can still hit the Fighter.

[Radar]

@dextercorvia
Ok, I see the point. As for the Otyugh Hole, it goes like this:
1. Pay 3000 gp for entry, get Iron Will.
2. Chaos Shuffle Iron Will into whatever feat you want.
3. Go back to step 1. as many times as you want or have money for.

[137beth]

Actually most encounters can be solved with generally useful spells. Spells like Teleport, Dimension Door, Invisibility (or Greater), Nerveskitter, Celerity are good to have on any given day - possibly more then one casting of each even.

The whole rogue ambush falls apart, if the wizard decides to for example use the Tinfoil Hat trick, which is again useful in many dangerous situations and doesn't require elaborate preparations.

There are also spells, that are practically "You lose, no save" - for example Forcecage (not likely to be prepared, but likely to be on a scroll at hand).

Also: forcing a wizard to escape is wining a battle, but it would most likely be a lost war, since he will probably prepare a scry and die retaliation.

A Warlock with Voracious Dispelling might actually have a shot at hurting the wizard, but it's hard to say, if it would be enough.

@dextercorvia
1. If you are bringing in epic spellcasting, then it's ICBM tag game.
2. If you are using that level of cheese, then it should be answered with equal ammounts of gouda on the other side and there is a lot more to achieve in 21 levels then just epic spellcasting. For example: you don't have to waste 20 levels on fighter, when for 3000 gp you can visit Otyugh Hole and get an extra feat.

Forcage does not guarantee a win. The fighter may have a magic item that allows him to cast disintegrate. AND it requires initiative. The rogue sneak attack strategy was based on the assumption that the wizard isn't aware until he is struck, which does NOT give him a chance to use Tinfoil Hat, or anything else for that matter. It fails if the wizard decides to just randomly cast a divination spell to find the rogue, but he likely won't do that because he doesn't know the rogue is there. Again, any of these tactics COULD work, but NONE of them are guaranteed wins.

[Kyrthain]

If I was reading tinfoil hat correctly, the whole point is that it needs no action. The instant the AMF hits, his hat expands, covering him, and protecting him from LoE from the field.

[jseah]

^Striking before awareness:
Not happening if the wizard scouts everywhere he goes.
Especially if the area he's entering is prime ambush area. What character wouldn't be cautious when entering an area that potentially has hostiles?

More opened ended divinations also work. Like, when is the next time I will be attacked by force of arms without my initiation? Then at that time, he puts up all his buffs before it happens and squashes you flat with foresight+celerity=timestop.

[Jayabalard]

What moderately high level wizard actually eats, or at least eats beyond a heroes feast?Most of the ones that aren't created as thought experiments do; generally people enjoy eating good food.

Sure, wizards in your games may all go without eating... but you can't assume that conditions in your game are prevalent elsewhere.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Forcage does not guarantee a win. The fighter may have a magic item that allows him to cast disintegrate. AND it requires initiative. The rogue sneak attack strategy was based on the assumption that the wizard isn't aware until he is struck, which does NOT give him a chance to use Tinfoil Hat, or anything else for that matter. It fails if the wizard decides to just randomly cast a divination spell to find the rogue, but he likely won't do that because he doesn't know the rogue is there. Again, any of these tactics COULD work, but NONE of them are guaranteed wins.

The spells nerveskitter (SpC) and foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) would like a word with your strategy. If I was a wizard with a ton of enemies, I would be stupid (and wizards, by definition, are NOT stupid) to not be using these spells while I go out to buy groceries. You aren't going to catch a wizard by surprise if these spells are in effect or sneak attack him even if you do manage to pump your initiative high enough.

EDIT: And a conjuration specialist is even more annoying with the abrupt jaunt ACF from the PHB II.

[Kami2awa]

Not sure if it would work, but Nightmare prevents you regaining spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm

Annoyingly it's stopped by Mind Blank, but maybe there's a way around that.

Any other method of stopping the wizard from resting would work.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Not sure if it would work, but Nightmare prevents you regaining spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm

Annoyingly it's stopped by Mind Blank, but maybe there's a way around that.

Any other method of stopping the wizard from resting would work.

Yeah, but is wizzy going to come out of his hidey-hole without his spells? And once he figures out what's going on, he'll take the necessary precautions (such as mind blank). Plus, what if wizzy is an elf? Not saying that all wizards are elves, but a fair few are.

It's not a bad tactic, especially if the wizard has to be somewhere the next day no matter what, it's just that you will have at most one shot at this.

[TheGeckoKing]

UMD a scroll of Teleport through Time, and facestab the Wizard while he's only a 5 year old. Wizard could TtT and faceobliterate you, provided he was notified of this, and when you were going (Hard, but possible)

UMD a scroll of Miracle/Wish and have the Wizard wiped from existance, no save. No sane god is gonna waste the chance to get rid of a Batman Wizard.

[137beth]

The spells nerveskitter (SpC) and foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) would like a word with your strategy. If I was a wizard with a ton of enemies, I would be stupid (and wizards, by definition, are NOT stupid) to not be using these spells while I go out to buy groceries. You aren't going to catch a wizard by surprise if these spells are in effect or sneak attack him even if you do manage to pump your initiative high enough.

EDIT: And a conjuration specialist is even more annoying with the abrupt jaunt ACF from the PHB II.

Foresight is a 9th level spell. At 17th level, that's one cast per day plus 1-2 extra from a high INT. That doesn't last the whole day, so I could simply wait to attack until afterwards. The same goes for all divination spells, unless you can continually cast them. And if your plan is to use low level divination spells constantly, that makes it easier to confuse with magic items. If you would explain your grand plan to keep divination warnings up 24/7 that are powerful enough not to be overcome with magic items that confuse divination, then I'll be impressed.

Putting the rogue strategy aside, why wouldn't it be possible with a sorcerer? Then you would be tier 2 and kill a tier 1.

[Emperor Tippy]

You flat out won't kill a properly built and well prepared level 20 wizard with anything less than a Tier 1 class. Even a collection of Tier 2's only stand the slimiest of chances.

Divine intervention might do it, but not under your own power.

The only thing more difficult to kill is a Save Game/Time Loop Psion.

AMF does nothing except suspend your Astral Projection body, and even that requires the wizards divination's to have failed and for the DM to have banned tin hats.

[Valameer]

A commoner 1 has a better shot than most.

Just play a long con. Become romantically involved. Learn all the secrets. Always be so innocuous as to never even warrant any mind-reading. Wait years for a moment of weakness. Then *bam!*

That's right. True ninja are always commoner 1.

[dextercorvia]

Foresight is a 9th level spell. At 17th level, that's one cast per day plus 1-2 extra from a high INT. That doesn't last the whole day, so I could simply wait to attack until afterwards. The same goes for all divination spells, unless you can continually cast them. And if your plan is to use low level divination spells constantly, that makes it easier to confuse with magic items. If you would explain your grand plan to keep divination warnings up 24/7 that are powerful enough not to be overcome with magic items that confuse divination, then I'll be impressed.

Putting the rogue strategy aside, why wouldn't it be possible with a sorcerer? Then you would be tier 2 and kill a tier 1.

If it's that important to your strategy, Foresight can be had as an eighth level spell from the Time domain. Also, Rod of Extend (greater) makes a difference. Whatever you do to maintain your buffs, a truly paranoid diviner type hides out when they aren't active. There is no waiting until afterwords. Your best chance there is a Dispel effect that he didn't think to cover with a contingency, such as one of the Warlock SLA's.

[jseah]

^Divine when himself is about to be next attacked, and thus be ready for it.
He thus knows when and approximately where he will be attacked. He doesn't know it's you since you have divination shielding items, but he can definitely know the time of attacks.

[Eldariel]

UMD a scroll of Teleport through Time, and facestab the Wizard while he's only a 5 year old. Wizard could TtT and faceobliterate you, provided he was notified of this, and when you were going (Hard, but possible)

UMD a scroll of Miracle/Wish and have the Wizard wiped from existance, no save. No sane god is gonna waste the chance to get rid of a Batman Wizard.

Due to the hilarity related to time travel, if you bring TtT to the game, time is actually no factor since the past is happened regardless of the present as long as it is in the past. And D&D really doesn't handle Time Travel well. In fact, there are no rules at all governing the types of solutions the world uses to deal with the common Time Travel-imposed issues.

[Ozymandias9]

A commoner 1 has a better shot than most.

Just play a long con. Become romantically involved. Learn all the secrets. Always be so innocuous as to never even warrant any mind-reading. Wait years for a moment of weakness. Then *bam!*

That's right. True ninja are always commoner 1.

That's the wonder of spymaster. You get that basic strategy, but divination and mind-reading back up the the cover, and you progress sneak attack and some other things.

From there it's a matter of being able to kill before the wizard can or knows to retaliate. As I mentioned earlier, Black Dog might be able to make enough attempts with out tipping off the wizard. Another option would be Bloodhound: if the Wizard is your mark, you should be able to deal enough strength damage from crippling strike to hit helpless (though it's worth noting that helpless, by strict RAW, doesn't actually preclude taking any action).

If you progress sneak attack far enough, you can toss in deafening strike and throat punch just to be sure.

All of this, however, fails to really account for what happens if the wizard has related contingencies. In particular, contingent Limited Wish replicating Restoration based on ability damage would put it right out.

But with sufficient time, a spymaster build should reasonably expect to know what most of the contingencies are and thus plan for them. A contingency to teleport on hitting a helpless state, for example, could be dealt with by using an item of quickened Dimensional Anchor used before the attack.

[Adumbration]

The principal issue is that caster's spell list tends to involve rather safe locations to sleep in like Magnificent Mansion or Rope Trick; places only accessible to those they want to allow enter. And when you have Magnificent Mansions, what do you need mundane homes for?

Also, Contingencies are still in effect even in their sleep.


I'm in a bit hurry, and I haven't read the whole thread yet... But there is a prestige class called Silver Key that gains the ability to enter such safe locations.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Foresight is a 9th level spell. At 17th level, that's one cast per day plus 1-2 extra from a high INT. That doesn't last the whole day, so I could simply wait to attack until afterwards. The same goes for all divination spells, unless you can continually cast them. And if your plan is to use low level divination spells constantly, that makes it easier to confuse with magic items. If you would explain your grand plan to keep divination warnings up 24/7 that are powerful enough not to be overcome with magic items that confuse divination, then I'll be impressed.

Putting the rogue strategy aside, why wouldn't it be possible with a sorcerer? Then you would be tier 2 and kill a tier 1.

My response is basically what these two said:


If it's that important to your strategy, Foresight can be had as an eighth level spell from the Time domain. Also, Rod of Extend (greater) makes a difference. Whatever you do to maintain your buffs, a truly paranoid diviner type hides out when they aren't active. There is no waiting until afterwords. Your best chance there is a Dispel effect that he didn't think to cover with a contingency, such as one of the Warlock SLA's.


^Divine when himself is about to be next attacked, and thus be ready for it.
He thus knows when and approximately where he will be attacked. He doesn't know it's you since you have divination shielding items, but he can definitely know the time of attacks.

Plus the fact that you want to use the spells when you leave the safety of your tower/fortress mountain/personal demiplane. A wizard with teleport doesn't need to spend a ton of travel time while he's running errands, and a three hour duration should be plenty of time to get most stuff done. Again, he won't prepare this every day or have it continuously active, but an intelligent wizard will be using it when he would otherwise be vulnerable.

[Raendyn]

well. this post is too long to read it all.I ask your forgiveness in advance in case someone already posted that.(it's not my build either:smallbiggrin:)

strongheart halfling wizard1/cleric1/rogueXX ( take few prestige's that give at 1st lvl sneak dmg)

wizard, conjurer: trade familiar for abrunt jaunt,scribe scroll for inprooved initiative

Cleric : take Luck domain & patience domain ( ca't remember if there are any gods giving them both. if not start rule lawyering about PH witch clearly mention you are not obligated to worship a god, a "higher power" of luck & patience is enough for you to be a cleric & alsohave those domains :smallcool:

your strategy is to throw flasks. acid, alchemist fire, holy water... i know there is one for each type of dmg.

halfling gives you +2 to attack rolls for thrown & +1 AC & +1 feat

take TWF,or for more cheesy, take a scroll of grilions blessing (hey you can cast it your shelf) & multy weapon fighting, take whatever other feat you want,just don't forget craven!

1 item is important, ring of blinking, it allows you to strike as if you were invisible, but you aren't, they can see you! so true seeing won't deny you this benefit.
Adding that you make touch attacks.... you can never miss, you have 6 atacks at lvl 15. or with multy limb 10 maybe, not to mention if you take the 1lvl adj thri-kreen from MM2 = 6 hands....

the fact is that you can avade spells with 3 ways. you have 1 dice re-roll, you can delay the effects of any spell, you can make the wizard loose LoS with jaunt. you always hit,+16 dmg just from craven,

If the wizard for some reason has protection from energy.with quick draw you can w8 & see the effects of your flask, then quick draw a different one & so on until you find the one he has not been prepared for don't forget , you can not loose initiative with nerveskitter & sign, imp init & if possible flash & awe..

if the wizard has a way to stop your sneaking, take a scroll of spiritual weapon, it flanks! if he is constuct-golem strike, if he is undead-Grave strike.

consider the millions of option you can combine with your rogue, + items (hoho i only used 1 item) + prestige's . i dont think someone other than Iot7V can't stant a round against this guy.

[Kyrthain]

First off, you've imposed a 20% miss chance on yourself from the blinking.
Second, Celerity says you aren't going first.
Third, even if the wizard doesn't just wall of force you, or forcecage, or himself go invisible (Denying you sneak attack), he'll probably trigger one of his contingent get-me-out-of-here teleports.

[Killer Angel]

if the wizard has a way to stop your sneaking, take a scroll of spiritual weapon, it flanks!

This won't work for various reasons.


The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one

Not only it doesn't count for flank but, even if it does, it would strike from your direction.

And seriously, you waste a standard action to cast spiritual weapon Vs a high level caster?

[137beth]

If it's that important to your strategy, Foresight can be had as an eighth level spell from the Time domain. Also, Rod of Extend (greater) makes a difference. Whatever you do to maintain your buffs, a truly paranoid diviner type hides out when they aren't active. There is no waiting until afterwords. Your best chance there is a Dispel effect that he didn't think to cover with a contingency, such as one of the Warlock SLA's.

So I'll just use something that confuses divination:|
And now you've used up a huge number of spell slots on divination, before the fight even begins:|

I fully expect that any single strategy could be overcome with the correct combination. The catch is that a wizard can't just randomly switch builds in the middle of play. And you can't adjust which spells you prepared in the middle of the day either. If you can come up with a SINGLE build with a list of prepared spells that can overcome every single combination in this thread with 100% success rate, I will be quite impressed. If your plan involves "cast a divination spell to determine which strategy I'm going to use", you also have to come up with an explanation for why I can't confuse your divination. Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

[Raendyn]

First off, you've imposed a 20% miss chance on yourself from the blinking.
Second, Celerity says you aren't going first.
Third, even if the wizard doesn't just wall of force you, or forcecage, or himself go invisible (Denying you sneak attack), he'll probably trigger one of his contingent get-me-out-of-here teleports.

I have done this indeed.And indeed he has celerity,but wall of farce me? jaunt jaunt jaunt.
mind controll or death effect me ( unless i dont have wards for those) i jaunt & he loose line of sight.OR i delay the effect & that after i rolled twice my save!
Also, i go for assasination mission & i dont have true seeing glasses?

teleport away? someone already mentioned it. i won the encounter if he does. if he teleport just 2 rounds away dinstance. then repeat...

even if he has enough contigencies until i have no more domain powers/jaunt i believe i've done better job than most. also how many contigencies?
Why don't i have some?i almost don't have items!i can pay wizards to cast contigent spells!!!

[dextercorvia]

So I'll just use something that confuses divination:|
And now you've used up a huge number of spell slots on divination, before the fight even begins:|

I fully expect that any single strategy could be overcome with the correct combination. The catch is that a wizard can't just randomly switch builds in the middle of play. And you can't adjust which spells you prepared in the middle of the day either. If you can come up with a SINGLE build with a list of prepared spells that can overcome every single combination in this thread with 100% success rate, I will be quite impressed. If your plan involves "cast a divination spell to determine which strategy I'm going to use", you also have to come up with an explanation for why I can't confuse your divination. Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

Nothing "confuses" Foresight. Foresight+Celerity says Wizard ALWAYS goes first, and if he doesn't feel prepared for the fight at that time -- BAMF! That foils every strategy to Kill the wizard I have seen so far, It uses an 9th(or 8th as previously mentioned), 4th and 5th(7th) level slot.

Not having the Wizard use spell slots to save his life is sillier than the Fighter not drinking a Healing Potion when he is almost out of HP.



<snip>
teleport away? someone already mentioned it. i won the encounter if he does. if he teleport just 2 rounds away dinstance. then repeat...
<snip>
also how many contigencies?
Why don't i have some?i almost don't have items!i can pay wizards to cast contigent spells!!!

Check the title. You have to kill him to win. Also <nitpick>Contingency is a personal spell -- you'd have to pay for a crafted Contingency. </nitpick>

[ZeroNumerous]

Best way to kill a Tier 1 Caster without being one?

Be a psion.

Time travel to when he was level 1(or a baby, whenever he's not invincible is acceptable) and kill him.

I think this was mentioned as early as page one. :smalltongue:

[jseah]

Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.
Something with Uncanny Forethought. That'll work nicely.

FYI, it allows you to convert any unprepared slot into a spell you have the spell mastery feat for. Int times per day.
You can also cast it as a spell you don't have spell mastery for as a full round instead of standard.

Goodbye unpreparedness.


Also, a wizard / Iot7V is ridiculously hard to kill. Prismatic wall as immediate action? (it's only one colour, but one is usually enough) Sounds like a big "no" button to me.
It also doesn't rule out Incantatrix... which can be an Abjurer for Abrupt Jaunt...

EDIT: Note that the veil that blocks magic blocks AMFs. XD
And that Prismatic Walls are immune to AMF. Thus veils work in one.
Who needs a tinfoil hat now? >.>

EDIT2:
You also mentioned a need for a character build.
Well, I posted a link to a BG thread. That thread's OP is one of a series of just such discussion and it has a link to a potential wizard build.
Comes in CO to TO flavours as well.

EDIT3:
Here's the link again.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0

[Person_Man]

But what does any of those do against a caster? I mean, casters feast on anyone trying to deal pure damage (even if they don't bother becoming immune to damage; even simple contingencies tend to pre-empt those, as well as Foresight+immediate actions) and Spellthief gets abilities that are still inferior to what you could have if you just cast real spells yourself.

Well, it depends on what level you're playing at, and how much time the caster has spent on pre-buff. If you're playing against a high level full caster who has Foresight and Greater Celerity, then I fully concede that there is very little that a Spellthief or anyone else could do to defeat him short of using similarly abusive spells.

But presumably the DM doesn't sit down and think of ways to auto-win combat before Initiative is rolled. Instead, I would argue that most DMs do their best to come up with interesting challenges. If the DM chooses to use full casters against the party, then a Spellthief is well armed to fight against them. He can steal spells, steal currently running spell effects, steal energy resistance, steal spell like abilities, absorb spells that target him, etc. While the Spellthief is nothing special against mooks and monsters, he is custom built to defeat magic using BBEG (who the DM will likely give a ton of hit points and other defenses). Again, I fully stipulate that he's not nearly as powerful as Tier 1 or 2 classes. He's just good at taking down certain Tier 1 enemies some of the time.

On the flip side, if a player chooses to play a Tier 1 caster, the DM can challenge him by giving the occasional enemy levels of Spellthief. If the player insists on using abusive spells, then the DM can just add more class levels to his monsters until things balance out.



And Incarnate's maximum spell resistance is still relatively easily pierced though it does force casters to rely on something like Assay Resistance or True Casting. Not to mention Incarnates' offense isn't very scary vs. a caster.

Yes, if your DM specifically decides to bypass your Spell Resistance, he can do so. DM is god. He can do anything.

But in most situations, the Spellward Shirt provides you with 50%ish magic resistance for a minimal investment, which is pretty darn handy in my book. It can be optimized up to Level + 20ish with a couple of feats and magic items, which is enough to defeat most (though certainly not all) non-epic magic.

I concede that the Incarnate is not an offensive class. But he has has a metric ton of defense, Skills, and a few good battlefield control and Save or Lose effects. He excels at outlasting the enemy and absorbing his effects, and giving his friends a much better opportunity to defeat them.


Remember, D&D is a game played by people, not computers. If it was just about crunching numbers, everyone would only play Tier 1 classes all of the time, and the game would be over as soon as someone achieved godhood (I think the record is level 2? I haven't read Pun-Pun in a while). But it's not just about numbers. It's about having lots of interesting options to play with. I'm certainly not advocating for the Monk or anything so silly. I find nothing interesting or fun about totally sucking. I'm just saying that there's plenty of room in the Tier 3-4 range that can keep up with Tier 1-2 builds, even though they're demonstrably not as powerful.

[ArcanistSupreme]

teleport away? someone already mentioned it. i won the encounter if he does. if he teleport just 2 rounds away dinstance. then repeat...

Or he casts time stop and starts gating in solars (what caster with access to these spells wouldn't prepare them on a regular basis or at least have scrolls of these readily available?). Shapechange is another fun "I win" button. And even if he didn't feel like preparing spells that morning and left all of his scrolls at home and you manage to whack him, what stops his clone from coming back and kicking your butt?

Is this fair? No. Is it intelligent game design to allow some characters to do this? Also no. I think this thread is more of a show of how stupidly powerful Tier One casters are than anything else. Any DM throwing a wizard like this at a party is a jerk, plain and simple. If the only way to kill him is to use time travel (ridiculous paradoxes aside), this is not an appropriate challenge for any party without their own top-tier (or second tier) casters.

Any player who plays a character like this is playing the game on easy mode. There's nothing wrong with that, as it can be a lot of fun, but it's also important to call it what it is.[/rant]

[JonestheSpy]

Or he casts time stop and starts gating in solars (what caster with access to these spells wouldn't prepare them on a regular basis or at least have scrolls of these readily available?).

Casters who remember that Gate costs you 1000xp a pop, perchance?

[crizh]

After a little thought I'm pretty sure that if your job was to assassinate high level Wizards a Psion 12 ought to be able to do the trick.

A level of Thrallherd wouldn't hurt but isn't necessary. You'll need Metamorphosis, Quintessence, Synchronicity, Contingency and Temporal Acceleration. Depending on your build you'll need at least one Expanded Knowledge feat to have all of those.

Set up a series of Contingencies triggered by your targets actions. Casting one of the Celerity Series, triggering a Contingency spell, triggering a crafted Contingent Spell, using any [teleport], etc, etc.

Triggered Power is Synchronicity. Gives you a standard action that triggers immediately interrupting whatever the Wizard has tried to do. It's not unreasonable for a DM to houserule simultaneous triggered actions to go in DEX sequence. If that is the case a Psion Metamorphed into a Will'o'Wisp will always win.

As you are getting a Standard action out of sequence you may also use a Swift action. Manifest Temporal Acceleration. Cover Wizard in Quintessence.

Job done.

That might need some tweaking but I'm pretty sure it's air-tight.

[137beth]

Nothing "confuses" Foresight. Foresight+Celerity says Wizard ALWAYS goes first, and if he doesn't feel prepared for the fight at that time -- BAMF! That foils every strategy to Kill the wizard I have seen so far, It uses an 9th(or 8th as previously mentioned), 4th and 5th(7th) level slot.

Not having the Wizard use spell slots to save his life is sillier than the Fighter not drinking a Healing Potion when he is almost out of HP.

First off, a WIZARD would need a 9th level spell slot. A 20th level wizard can cast 4 9th level spells per day. Add in an intelligence score of ~23, which does not give bonus 9th level spells. At 20th CL, foresight lasts for 200 minutes, for a total of 800 minutes=13 hours and 20 minutes. The obvious way past this defense is to wait until the wizard runs out of foresight. Once the rogue attacks, the wizard will not be protected by foresight AND will have used up all his 9th level spells. Unless you can find a way for foresight to last 24 hours a day, there's a huge gaping hole in your defense.

EDIT: you are also assuming that the wizard in question uses divination. In fact, the thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one", NOT "Best ways to kill all Tier 1 caster without being one". Now, it would be a pointless comparison if we did not specify that that you are near the same level as them. If you do somehow create a wizard build/prepared spells combination that can defeat every possible rogue attack 100% of the time (and that includes during the time when you are not protected by foresight), that would be impressive, but then I probably would attack another wizard. Preferably one that doesn't use divination.

[Sewercop]

So I'll just use something that confuses divination:|
And now you've used up a huge number of spell slots on divination, before the fight even begins:|

I fully expect that any single strategy could be overcome with the correct combination. The catch is that a wizard can't just randomly switch builds in the middle of play. And you can't adjust which spells you prepared in the middle of the day either. If you can come up with a SINGLE build with a list of prepared spells that can overcome every single combination in this thread with 100% success rate, I will be quite impressed. If your plan involves "cast a divination spell to determine which strategy I'm going to use", you also have to come up with an explanation for why I can't confuse your divination. Write up a complete wizard build that is capable of beating every single one of these strategies (NOT a separate wizard build for each rogue/fighter strategy), then come back.

If you read this you will see why http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0

A lot of reading, but its explained in depth. Short story are a god of divine rank 6 or higher. They are not even sure if a wizard can take down a "turtled" wizard.
They agreed on that a most wizards in games people play can be taken out by melee classes, but they also came to the conclusion that a paranoid genious wizard by raw are basicly impossible to kill for a non spell user. Or a spell user for that matter.

Some of the melee builds were wicked good mage slayers. But taking down a paranoid wizard? no way by raw... The more you try... The worse it gets.

[BeholderSlayer]

A real tier one caster cannot be permanently killed, even by other tier 1 spellcasters.

By proxy, this means that anything below tier 1 cannot kill him/her, either.

Why?

Because you never actually fight the real caster. You fight an astrally projected copy while the original stays in his personal demiplane which he has sealed off entrance to all other beings, not even deities can enter.

DM rulings and fiat should never be used as evidence in this type of discussion. Once you've resorted to DM fiat, you have already lost the argument.

[crizh]

Because you never actually fight the real caster. You fight an astrally projected copy while the original stays in his personal demiplane which he has sealed off entrance to all other beings, not even deities can enter.


Again I'd say Psion. Metafaculty to locate him, Plane Shift etc, etc.

Not sure how you plan on sealing a plane against Deities without using Epic Magic but I'm pretty sure it's going to involve dubious Genesis abuse.

[BeholderSlayer]

Again I'd say Psion. Metafaculty to locate him, Plane Shift etc, etc.

Not sure how you plan on sealing a plane against Deities without using Epic Magic but I'm pretty sure it's going to involve dubious Genesis abuse.

Of course genesis abuse. No, the psion can't enter, either.

[Radar]

Casters who remember that Gate costs you 1000xp a pop, perchance?
Summon Monster IX has quite a variety of good options as well. Grapple at over +30, loads of monsters with additional detection methods or with potent spell-like abilities.

[crizh]

Like I said dubious. If you can't support it then it isn't a valid argument.

Like the flowing time nonsense folks spout all the time. The DMG is quite clear that the Great Wheel Cosmology does not have any planes with flowing time but people argue it as if it is perfectly reasonable all the time.

Without explicit text in Genesis that permits you to bar entrance you can't. Just because a plane can be locked doesn't mean Genesis can create such planes. Just the text ma'am. Genesis can alter
the environment within the demiplane not how the plane interacts with other planes or how others may or may not travel to it.

[BeholderSlayer]

Like I said dubious. If you can't support it then it isn't a valid argument.

Like the flowing time nonsense folks spout all the time. The DMG is quite clear that the Great Wheel Cosmology does not have any planes with flowing time but people argue it as if it is perfectly reasonable all the time.

Without explicit text in Genesis that permits you to bar entrance you can't. Just because a plane can be locked doesn't mean Genesis can create such planes. Just the text ma'am. Genesis can alter not how the plane interacts with other planes or how others may or may not travel to it.

Most people assume that unless the spell says you CAN'T do something, then you can, not the other way around.

The psionic version, IIRC, states you cannot manipulate the time trait, thus you CAN do it with the arcane version.

The caster may decide that the environment within the demiplane denies access to all beings except the spellcaster. Thus, it's not the interaction with other planes that refuses entry, it's the nature of the plane itself. If a plane may be locked, then a demiplane can as well. It doesn't need to say that you can do it, but it does have to say that you can't. What it does say is that the plane's environment can be:
"reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

Both of these concepts are easy to visualize, thus they can be built into the plane.

[Gametime]

As you are getting a Standard action out of sequence you may also use a Swift action. Manifest Temporal Acceleration. Cover Wizard in Quintessence.



I might be wrong, but as I recall the restriction on swift actions is that they may only be used on your turn and only once per round. Just because you are acting doesn't make it your turn.

[JonestheSpy]

Most people assume that unless the spell says you CAN'T do something, then you can, not the other way around.


Hmm, I'll remember that next time I cast Fireball and need to explain to the DM how the spell also healed my wounds, recharged my wands, and washed my socks.

[ArcanistSupreme]

First off, a WIZARD would need a 9th level spell slot. A 20th level wizard can cast 4 9th level spells per day. Add in an intelligence score of ~23, which does not give bonus 9th level spells. At 20th CL, foresight lasts for 200 minutes, for a total of 800 minutes=13 hours and 20 minutes. The obvious way past this defense is to wait until the wizard runs out of foresight. Once the rogue attacks, the wizard will not be protected by foresight AND will have used up all his 9th level spells. Unless you can find a way for foresight to last 24 hours a day, there's a huge gaping hole in your defense.

First of all, ~23?! Assuming we are starting with an elite array (which is low), we have 15+5 from levels+6 from an item+at least 2 from inherent bonuses=28, which nets us a bonus spell. One more doesn't seem like much, but 9th level spells are ridiculous. Plus, the wizard will not be hanging out in the open all day. He will spend one spell slot on foresight (rods of extend are wonderful) and get 400 minutes, which is plenty of time to complete his errand before he pops back off to his demiplane. Anyone that messes with him has 4 ninth level spells to deal with (and eighth level spells are nothing to sneeze at).

Second, how are you going to a)be within range of the wizard for all 6+hours and b)know when foresight wears off? Unless you have a boatload of scrolls of greater arcane sight and can somehow stay within 120 ft for 6+hours without being detected, this plan will need a bit of work.

[137beth]

First of all, ~23?! Assuming we are starting with an elite array (which is low), we have 15+5 from levels+6 from an item+at least 2 from inherent bonuses=28, which nets us a bonus spell. One more doesn't seem like much, but 9th level spells are ridiculous. Plus, the wizard will not be hanging out in the open all day. He will spend one spell slot on foresight (rods of extend are wonderful) and get 400 minutes, which is plenty of time to complete his errand before he pops back off to his demiplane. Anyone that messes with him has 4 ninth level spells to deal with (and eighth level spells are nothing to sneeze at).

Second, how are you going to a)be within range of the wizard for all 6+hours and b)know when foresight wears off? Unless you have a boatload of scrolls of greater arcane sight and can somehow stay within 120 ft for 6+hours without being detected, this plan will need a bit of work.

1.In my games, ability bonuses gained from items and spells are not counted towards bonus spells. I can see how you could interpret the rules differently (and my version is in fact partially to reduce the power of spellcasting classes), so let's assume you do, in fact, have 28 int. That's still not enough to keep foresight up 24/7

2.I am assuming that a rogue using UMD could cast divination spells from a magic item to determine when foresight wears off. Or, for that matter, a sorcerer could cast it (and more times per day than the wizard). as for staying in range--I wouldn't have to, just teleport in after it DOES wear off.

ROD OF EXTEND: I was proposing a strategy that would bypass any wizard techniques previously mentioned on this thread. No one had said anything about magic items like rod of extension, they had just said "foresight, and you can't sneak attack". But WITH rod of extension, you would be able to keep foresight active 24 hours per day (assuming you don't run out of rods, which is unlikely for a 20th level wizard). This means that you (but NOT ess that ends this part of the discussion (specifically, the high level wizard vs. high level rouge). I'm not convinced you couldn't research a spell that messes with divination (even foresight) and have someone put it in a magic item...but it would probably be very expensive if it is high enough to block the 9th level spells of a 20th level wizard. Too high, perhaps, for a 20th level rogue to afford. A sorcerer might be able to do it, but that is a tier above rogue. A rogue could, however, kill a wizard who does not use very much divination (or even one who has barred divination, using The Giant's rule variant). After all, not EVERY high level wizard designs their entire character around defending against rogues:smallsmile:

Now, if we assume that the wizard has sacrificed everything else to be optimal for defending against 1 on 1 assassinations, then the only CORE class capable of winning (aside from another wizard) would be a sorcerer.

[Gametime]

Now, if we assume that the wizard has sacrificed everything else a single magic item and two spell slots to be optimal for defending against 1 on 1 assassinations, then the only CORE class capable of winning (aside from another wizard) would be a sorcerer.

Fixed that for you.

Rods of Extend were definitely brought up earlier in the thread. At least, I'm almost certain I mentioned one earlier, although it was in the context of a different buff than Foresight. Regardless, any wizard with cash to spare should get a Rod of Extend, and level 20 characters definitely have cash to spare.

[Kirgoth]

Poisoned Bat poo

[dextercorvia]

First off, a WIZARD would need a 9th level spell slot. A 20th level wizard can cast 4 9th level spells per day. Add in an intelligence score of ~23, which does not give bonus 9th level spells. At 20th CL, foresight lasts for 200 minutes, for a total of 800 minutes=13 hours and 20 minutes. The obvious way past this defense is to wait until the wizard runs out of foresight. Once the rogue attacks, the wizard will not be protected by foresight AND will have used up all his 9th level spells. Unless you can find a way for foresight to last 24 hours a day, there's a huge gaping hole in your defense.

EDIT: you are also assuming that the wizard in question uses divination. In fact, the thread is "Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one", NOT "Best ways to kill all Tier 1 caster without being one". Now, it would be a pointless comparison if we did not specify that that you are near the same level as them. If you do somehow create a wizard build/prepared spells combination that can defeat every possible rogue attack 100% of the time (and that includes during the time when you are not protected by foresight), that would be impressive, but then I probably would attack another wizard. Preferably one that doesn't use divination.

Foresight is available to Wizards as an 8th level spell for the cost of a feat. Not optimal, but available. A Cloistered Cleric/Contemplative can have the Time, Travel and Spell domains giving him access to the same combo (through Greater Anyspell).

The rest of your argument seems to say that the best way to kill a Tier 1 class without using one is to find the guy who gimped himself the most. I was asked for a build that could defend against any of the strategies outlined here to kill a T1. Either of these T1 stubs can survive any threat below the level of epic magic, by A) Going First and B) Getting the Heck Out!



ROD OF EXTEND: I was proposing a strategy that would bypass any wizard techniques previously mentioned on this thread. No one had said anything about magic items like rod of extension, they had just said "foresight, and you can't sneak attack".

In fact, I said it in response to you.


If it's that important to your strategy, Foresight can be had as an eighth level spell from the Time domain. Also, Rod of Extend (greater) makes a difference. Whatever you do to maintain your buffs, a truly paranoid diviner type hides out when they aren't active. There is no waiting until afterwords. Your best chance there is a Dispel effect that he didn't think to cover with a contingency, such as one of the Warlock SLA's.

[137beth]

I apologize, I did not see the rod of extend earlier in the thread. I don't think it was mentioned that the wizard should use rod of extend on foresight specifically, but anyone with 19 intelligence (or 18, if casting foresight as an 8th level spell) should be able to figure out that if you have a rod of extension and your only problem is a duration which is too short, that you should simply extend foresight:smallsmile:


Fixed that for you.

In this case, "sacrificing everything" doesn't mean all that much given that the "sacrifice" is small before he starts picking generally useful spells and feats. I was basically saying that not all wizards have every trick mentioned...in this case the primary "trick" is extended foresight...which basically leaves the rogue with the option to search for a wizard who does not know foresight, if he wants to claim to have single-handily killed a pure wizard.

[aje8]

I think some of this is missing the point.

The Wizard's plan is NOT to beat whatever you do with the right spell. It's to always go first and then either 1-round you or teleport away.

Why a Wizard goes first:
Ok so, let's assume the Wizard loses intiative. (Although, it's easier for him to optimize it then most classes because of Nerveskitter and Hummingbird Familiar, any class can take the feats and buy the items appropiate to optimizing this. My Wizard usually have at least a +10 to init by lv. 20) Wait! Wait! Stop! Before any of that happens, the Wizard goes in the suprize round. Even if there isn't one, he goes in one anyway. Wizards like this spend all their time shapechanged into Dire Tortises for just this ability. You suprise him so you both act in the suprise round you say? No problem, the Wizard just casts either Celerity or it's greater version to gain an action immedatley. He can do this in the middle of the combatants turn, and can go immediatley. And if that action isn't enough to finish his enemy off, the Wizard is simply casting Time Stop. He's also not dazed from celerity via a spell called Tears of the Martyr I believe? I'm a little hazy on the name. Anyway, that spell is from the Cleric list and he casts it via Limited Wish and extends it every morning making it last all day. From there, he can Gate in creatures of absurd power, put up a primatic wall and buff himself to high heaven, assuming that is that he doesn't just want to teleport away.

Once the Wizard has gone first, he has many options to defeat his opponent, Timestop->anything is one. Forcecage+Quickened Dimensional Anchor kills many. To beat non-wizard casters, he has Anti-Magic Ray. Reverse Gravity auto-wins against non-flying opponents. There are a bunch of other tricks too, but I won't get into them.

Assuming all of those method won't work on the Wizard's challenger, THEN, he Teleports away. (The Wizard should be able to figure this out due to his above-genius level intellect. If he's unsure, he defualts to teleport away.)

If an enemy manages to kill the Wizard despite all of that, he will be dismayed to realize that he merely killed the Wizard's astrally projected duplicate. The Wizard never leaves his personal demi-plane which he created via the Genesis spell.

And if an adversary manages to track down the real version of a Wizard and somehow go first, THEN he has to deal with the flying, invisible, supergenius before him. A super-genius wearing an LOS blocking metal hat and with many, many contingencies up.

Note that this hypothetical wizard needs only a few spells plus ways to end combat. Basically, Contigency, Overland Flight, a Ring of Invisibility, Teleport, Celerity and Greater Celerity, Time Stop, Shapechange, and Genesis. (although he doesn't prepare that one regularly, he just cast it a while back.)

[137beth]

@above: yes, and foresight allows him to always go first. The previous discussion was to whether or not a rogue could somehow get a first strike. The verdict was that any wizard with foresight+rod of extension could never lose the first strike to a rogue of the same level.

[aje8]

@above: yes, and foresight allows him to always go first. The previous discussion was to whether or not a rogue could somehow get a first strike. The verdict was that any wizard with foresight+rod of extension could never lose the first strike to a rogue of the same level.

I dislike Foresight, it's a 9th level slot for something that can w be done easier. Also, it's duration means that a hypothetical attack could catch a Wizard with it down. They would have to get lucky, but they could do it. I was explaining why a Wizard can always go first for many other reasons.

[ArcanistSupreme]

+1 to the above comment. EDIT: The comment two comments above.


1.In my games, ability bonuses gained from items and spells are not counted towards bonus spells. I can see how you could interpret the rules differently (and my version is in fact partially to reduce the power of spellcasting classes), so let's assume you do, in fact, have 28 int. That's still not enough to keep foresight up 24/7

While this is a legitimate house rule, keep in mind that it is a house rule and not RAW (which is part of the challenge).

And as I said before, you don't have to keep it up 24/7. You just have to have it up for as long as you will be off of your home turf and/or vulnerable (maybe your personal demiplane is being fumigated due to a massive formian infestation?), and six hours should cover anything a wizard has to do. Anything that takes longer can be handled by his chain-gated army of solars.

[Hague]

I always find it amusing that any sane game world would allow such a spellcaster to live.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I always find it amusing that any sane game world would allow such a spellcaster to live.

I completely agree, which is why I don't think I'll ever play anything that is tier one.

[Gametime]

I always find it amusing that any sane game world would allow such a spellcaster to live.

Presumably, the paranoid hyper-wizards spend all their free time researching new ways to improve the welfare of sentient beings so that it's more beneficial for people to just leave them alone.

It's not like many beings short of gods can stop a level 20 wizard without sufficient determination to stay alive anyway, and I assume the local deity o' magic has some sort of agreement with the other gods to not go killing off all his or her worshipers.

[JonestheSpy]

and foresight allows him to always go first.

I am consistently amazed at the number of people who convince themselves of such silly stuff.

There is, of course, nothing whatsoever in the description of the spell that indicates someone casting Foresight automatically wins initiative or even gets a bonus to it, yet such interweb mythology remains.

Now someone might make some argument about Celerity+Foresight, but now we are bringing in optional rules that in my opinion no DM who gave a flying fig about game balance would ever allow in actual play.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Presumably, the paranoid hyper-wizards spend all their free time researching new ways to improve the welfare of sentient beings so that it's more beneficial for people to just leave them alone.

It's not like many beings short of gods can stop a level 20 wizard without sufficient determination to stay alive anyway, and I assume the local deity o' magic has some sort of agreement with the other gods to not go killing off all his or her worshipers.

Plus, a lot of game worlds seem to have gods that believe in a more laissez faire approach to ruling over creation, at least based on the number of these wizards that seem to exist.

EDIT:
I am consistently amazed at the number of people who convince themselves of such silly stuff.

There is, of course, nothing whatsoever in the description of the spell that indicates someone casting Foresight automatically wins initiative or even gets a bonus to it, yet such interweb mythology remains.

Now someone might make some argument about Celerity+Foresight, but now we are bringing in optional rules that in my opinion no DM who gave a flying fig about game balance would ever allow in actual play.

My point was that this spell would prevent a rogue from surprising (and thus getting SA damage) a wizard. As for using that combo, yes it's ridiculously broken, but so are tons of spells that make it into most games (polymorph line, gate, mindblank, etc.). But this is a discussion of RAW, not of sane and reasonable house rules.

[deuxhero]

Specialized tier 2, jumplomancer (and similar theoretical ops), and bringing an epic level character all sound good to me.

[dextercorvia]

I am consistently amazed at the number of people who convince themselves of such silly stuff.

There is, of course, nothing whatsoever in the description of the spell that indicates someone casting Foresight automatically wins initiative or even gets a bonus to it, yet such interweb mythology remains.

Now someone might make some argument about Celerity+Foresight, but now we are bringing in optional rules that in my opinion no DM who gave a flying fig about game balance would ever allow in actual play.

There is nothing any more optional about Celerity than any other part of DnD. But yeah, that's the point: Foresight means you aren't surprised, and therefore can take and Immediate Action. Celerity means you Go Now. Together you always can go first. I don't think what you have seen is so much mythology as a Contraction, a belief that others will understand the full meaning behind the words.

[Kirgoth]

Would using a metaconcert for the higher DC and casting reality revision work

Reality revision can

•Transport travelers. This power can lift one creature per manifester level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance (if any) applies.

So you send your wizard's real body from his personal demiplane into the guts of a devourer where he can die horribly. He wins initative of course but there is not much he can do about it; I win initative ( i scream before the devourer rubs his tummy)

[aje8]

@Kirgoth: Wizards have good will saves. Also, what do you mean he can't do much about it? Can't he use the same exact trick with Wish and do it first via Foresight, Celerity and the like? Also, that seems like it doesn't kill him to me. You teleport him wherever, he takes 1 round worth of damage and teleports out. Even 20D6 damage from being totally sumberged in Lava averages 70 damage and thus won't 1-shot him much of the time. Not to mention Energy Resitance with he undoubtably has up.

[JonestheSpy]

There is nothing any more optional about Celerity than any other part of DnD.

Technically, that is correct, as everything in DnD is dependent on the whim of the DM - red dragons can breathe popcorn and dwarves can fart prismatic spheres if the DM wants for their personal campaign.

However, there are the Core Rules/SRD that are the foundation that everything else is built upon and are regarded as dogma when having discussions about the game. All the rest is even-more-optional, and as I said, my personal opinion is that allowing blatantly overpowered stuff like Celerity is just asking for gross game imbalance.

Just because WotC published it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[dextercorvia]

Technically, that is correct, as everything in DnD is dependent on the whim of the DM - red dragons can breathe popcorn and dwarves can fart prismatic spheres if the DM wants for their personal campaign.

However, there are the Core Rules/SRD that are the foundation that everything else is built upon and are regarded as dogma when having discussions about the game. All the rest is even-more-optional, and as I said, my personal opinion is that allowing grossly overpowered stuff like Celerity is just asking for gross game imbalance.

This was definitely not a Core Only discussion however. I didn't suggest any truly optional rules like gestalt or defense bonus.

[JonestheSpy]

This was definitely not a Core Only discussion however. I didn't suggest any truly optional rules like gestalt or defense bonus.

I simply think it's worth pointing out in these endless rhapsodies of "WZIrDS ARE TEH AWESUM!" that so much of the reasoning behind that point of view is based on poorly-written, wildly unbalanced optional splatbook stuff.

And Celerity is no more or less optional than Gestalt or whatever else.

[aje8]

I simply think it's worth pointing out in these endless rhapsodies of "WZIrDS ARE TEH AWESUM!" that so much of the reasoning behind that point of view is based on poorly-written, wildly unbalanced optional splatbook stuff.
Disagree. While it's true the simplest argument for Wizards is go first-> I win which does indeed rely on splatbooks, Without that, Wizard go from actually unkillable, to just one the best classes in the game. In core there is gate, timespot, shapechange, and Planar Binding, off the top of my head.

If you need more evidence, I recall a test, Fighter 20 using as many splat books as needed vs. Core-Only Wizard 20. The Wizard won easily. In fact, he let the Fighter reroll a save or die and made several other consessions and he still won.

[BeholderSlayer]

If you need more evidence, I recall a test, Fighter 20 using as many splat books as needed vs. Core-Only Wizard 20. The Wizard won easily. In fact, he let the Fighter reroll a save or die and made several other consessions and he still won.

yep, this thread. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Coreonly_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20?post_id=3384 25214#338425214)

[crizh]

I might be wrong, but as I recall the restriction on swift actions is that they may only be used on your turn and only once per round. Just because you are acting doesn't make it your turn.



You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action


You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action

You may take one Swift action per turn at the same time as you take any other action.

It's your 'turn' whenever you are allowed to take an action. Usually this occurs on your initiative count during the normal initiative sequence. Readied actions etc can alter this.

Foresight, Nerveskitter, Celerity are useless. As a matter of fact you can rely on them as the trigger for your own interrupt. A high level Wizard's weakness is his predictability. He will use one of these spells or contingency or [teleport] to 'end-run' the encounter by going first or escaping. By designing your offence to give you the first action because he has done so you win.

It should be noted that even should the Genesis house-rules suggested above be in play the Quintessence gambit still works. The 'body' created by Astral Projection and the Wizards consciousness would both be taken out of time. As Astral Projection has no duration it would continue to function indefinitely. There would still be a silver cord though. Enter Githyanki allies stage right....

[Gametime]

You may take one Swift action per turn at the same time as you take any other action.

Interesting. I had not noticed that. I was working off the Rules Compendium definition.


You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn.

Technically, I believe the Rules Compendium is intended to both compile and update the rules, and should be taken as the primary source. Also, since swift actions aren't core, there's no issue with the core books trumping splat books - and as the more recent splat book, the RC should again take priority.


It's your 'turn' whenever you are allowed to take an action. Usually this occurs on your initiative count during the normal initiative sequence. Readied actions etc can alter this.

Can you provide a citation for that definition of "turn?" Because although your reasoning was sound for the swift-action-off-Celerity bit - albeit, I think, based on outdated information - I can't find anything in that information that redefines "turn." In fact, all it refers to are "actions." I can't find a solid definition for "turn" anywhere, so it's possible you're right, but most of the references I can find talk about how you act in turn based on initiative. I don't see any indication that actions not based on initiative still count as turns.


Foresight, Nerveskitter, Celerity are useless. As a matter of fact you can rely on them as the trigger for your own interrupt. A high level Wizard's weakness is his predictability. He will use one of these spells or contingency or [teleport] to 'end-run' the encounter by going first or escaping. By designing your offence to give you the first action because he has done so you win.

I've never been convinced by the idea that Contingency can "interrupt" actions that trigger it. There's nothing in the spell description that seems to indicate it can do so, and there's nothing in the spell description that seems to indicate it can predict what is about to happen. The idea that you can prevent the wizard from doing something by "interrupting" him with Contingency rings just as hollow, to me, as the idea that Contingency can prevent a wizard from entering an antimagic field.

But even if Contingency does work like that, all you've done is reduce the conflict to a Contingency war. I don't see why Hypothetical McWizard shouldn't have a few extra Contingencies piled on, ready to trigger when another person's Contingencies trigger off his Contingencies.

Yo dawg, etc.

[olentu]

You may take one Swift action per turn at the same time as you take any other action.

It's your 'turn' whenever you are allowed to take an action. Usually this occurs on your initiative count during the normal initiative sequence. Readied actions etc can alter this.

Foresight, Nerveskitter, Celerity are useless. As a matter of fact you can rely on them as the trigger for your own interrupt. A high level Wizard's weakness is his predictability. He will use one of these spells or contingency or [teleport] to 'end-run' the encounter by going first or escaping. By designing your offence to give you the first action because he has done so you win.

It should be noted that even should the Genesis house-rules suggested above be in play the Quintessence gambit still works. The 'body' created by Astral Projection and the Wizards consciousness would both be taken out of time. As Astral Projection has no duration it would continue to function indefinitely. There would still be a silver cord though. Enter Githyanki allies stage right....

You realize that psionic contingency has this phrase "You can use only one psionic contingency companion power at a time; if a second is manifested, the first one (if still active) is dismissed."

[jseah]

Alternative to foresight is Shapechage 24/7.

Rainbow Falls magical location gives Extend meta for free to Shapechange that stacks with the actual Extend spell. Rod gives another extend spell.
At level 20, 3 castings of Shapechange = 24/7 shapechange.

Being a dire tortoise works, being a minotaur works.


Another alternative is a legacy weapon. With the Cunning property (same as Minotaur IIRC) which says you are never flatflooted. Like, never. No FF means you can take immediate actions, means Celerity wins.

[crizh]

You realize that psionic contingency has this phrase "You can use only one psionic contingency companion power at a time; if a second is manifested, the first one (if still active) is dismissed."

As a matter of fact I am relying on it. The text of Psionic Contingency is explicitly different to the text of Contingency. The net effect is that you may have as many Psionic Contingencies as you can be bothered to manifest. Only one of the triggered Companion Powers may be active at any one time but that isn't relevant for instantaneous powers.

On the subject of RC, I would generally go with the original more detailed sources but if you want to consider RC definitive then you should look at p110 Ready.

RC explicitly permits a readied Swift Action. So a Synchronicity that Readies a Temporal Acceleration is an entirely legal Contingency. I would contend that Contingency ought to by definition be an interrupt, otherwise what is the point? Carefully wording always makes it into one so why not assume that it is?

'When Fizban begins casting Celerity - Synchronicity (Readied Temporal Acceleration)'

The only worry there is a Wizard with an effect that is Contingent on being exposed to a Time Stop or similar effect. You would need an additional Psionic Contingency triggered by tripping such a Contingency. It would be very difficult to trump this as wording multiple Contingencies that are triggered by the same effect that are conditional on each other becomes so complex as to run foul of the 'complexity' clause of Contingency. At which point it is down to DM fiat and you need to bash out consistent house-rules before you can progress any further.

[olentu]

As a matter of fact I am relying on it. The text of Psionic Contingency is explicitly different to the text of Contingency. The net effect is that you may have as many Psionic Contingencies as you can be bothered to manifest. Only one of the triggered Companion Powers may be active at any one time but that isn't relevant for instantaneous powers.

Ah I see so you believe that a power is only active when it is having an effect.

Allow me to say that this is especially bad for your position because I was referring to the word use in the quote as well as active. Clearly you are using the companion power from the moment you have manifested it. For you to cast more than one psionic contingency means that if the first power is not dismissed (as it would not be under the interpretation of active you prefer) Then you have just made your character illegal.

It is breaking the rules and that is a worse outcome for you then most others. This is because your argument now rests upon having an illegal character and I am rather sure that an illegal character is not something that is likely to be accepted.

[crizh]

This isn't really a point I want to argue here as it derails the thread. I can assure you that the accepted interpretation everywhere I have ever seen this discussed is that Psionic Contingency works the way I have described.


In all cases, the psionic contingency immediately brings into effect the companion power, the latter being “manifested” instantaneously only when the prescribed circumstances occur

The companion power is not 'manifested' until the trigger conditions are met.


You can use only one psionic contingency companion power at a time; if a second is manifested, the first one (if still active) is dismissed.

A second contingent power is only 'manifested' if a second trigger condition is met. This is only possible if you can 'use' more than one Psionic Contingency at a time.

The text is clear that it is companion powers that can only be used one at a time.

I spent quite some time reading the opinions of much more experienced and incisive minds than my own, Lycanthromancer and Tempest Stormwind for example and defer to them in such matters.

Regardless, as I understand it MiC transparency rules would allow you to use Craft Contingent Spell to create a Contingent Synchronicity like this very cheaply so the point still stands regardless.

[Killer Angel]

My point was that this spell would prevent a rogue from surprising (and thus getting SA damage) a wizard.

Just a nitpick. Even if you're not surprised, you're still flat footed 'til your initiative... The rogue cannot SA because Foresight specify that you're never flat-footed (unless of course there are other conditions that negate the wiz. dex bonuses).

[olentu]

This isn't really a point I want to argue here as it derails the thread. I can assure you that the accepted interpretation everywhere I have ever seen this discussed is that Psionic Contingency works the way I have described.



The companion power is not 'manifested' until the trigger conditions are met.



A second contingent power is only 'manifested' if a second trigger condition is met. This is only possible if you can 'use' more than one Psionic Contingency at a time.

The text is clear that it is companion powers that can only be used one at a time.

I spent quite some time reading the opinions of much more experienced and incisive minds than my own, Lycanthromancer and Tempest Stormwind for example and defer to them in such matters.

Regardless, as I understand it MiC transparency rules would allow you to use Craft Contingent Spell to create a Contingent Synchronicity like this very cheaply so the point still stands regardless.

You are still using the power and thus the character is illegal.

Please note that the power specifically says "The psionic contingency power and the companion power are manifest at the same time" So unless you are manifesting psionic contingency in the middle of battle the companion power has already been manifested when you manifested psionic contingency. Later it is " "manifested" " but the power has specifically already been manifested or you have not even manifested psionic contingency yet and thus there is no effect.

Additionally the text of Psionics-Magic Transparency does not specify the way in which most magic items (including to the best of my knowledge) crafted contingent spells affect psionics and so if you say that any item affects psionics in any way not specified you are making a houserule. Houserules are fine in their place but that does not really seem to be this discussion.

However since I suppose one could buy crafted contingencies of celerity I can set aside the transparency discussion unless pressed.

Now then since your psion is only level 12 a level 20 wizard will have more contingencies and thus will still win on going first. If you want your argument to work out to getting more contingencies for the opponent of the wizard you are going to need something with more HD.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

A 20th level munchkin sniper(rogue) could do it.

[Killer Angel]

A 20th level munchkin sniper(rogue) could do it.

Care to elaborate, please?

(and BTW, munchkin isn't the correct term, a muchkin is a player -not a character-, who's a kind of cheater. For example, a munchkin sums all the bonuses of the same type, goes in rage "forgetting" the malus to the AC, and so on)

[ArcanistSupreme]

Just a nitpick. Even if you're not surprised, you're still flat footed 'til your initiative... The rogue cannot SA because Foresight specify that you're never flat-footed (unless of course there are other conditions that negate the wiz. dex bonuses).

Yeah, I remembered that after I shut off my computer. The rogue still doesn't get SA, so the net effect is basically the same.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

Care to elaborate, please?

(and BTW, munchkin isn't the correct term, a muchkin is a player -not a character-, who's a kind of cheater. For example, a munchkin sums all the bonuses of the same type, goes in rage "forgetting" the malus to the AC, and so on)

Ah, I guess an optimized rogue would be the best shorthand description, using dragon magazine (might not even need to really...)
I'm assuming the T1 can cast 9th level spells, since that's what makes them T1 right? That's my reasoning for 2 20th level characters in this situation.

I'm not entirely sure where to start, damage dealing or bypassing all the garbage a T1 can use to defend themselves...so let us start with simple damage.

A 16 rogue/4 Halfling Fighter dual wielding Force Quickloading +4 Double hand crossbows of Splitting full rapid firing fires 20 shots per round (4 BAB, 3 TWF, 1 Rapid, 1 per extra shaft on double hand crossbows)x2 splitting. 1d4+7d6+4 per shot. +4 from Weapon specialization and ranged weapon mastery. Avg 35 damage ignoring damage reduction times 20 shots = 700 damage. So there's plenty of room for misses and such as I don't think your T1 has that many hit points.

First off, the sniper has Darkstalker, so ONLY a spot or listen check can be used to locate them(no tremor sense, blind sense, scent, ignores flanking immunity).
This character uses an item familiar to double up his ranks in hide/move silently.
This character is a halfling sniper substitution class so they can perform snipes during full round attacks at only a -10 sniping penalty.
This character has Concealed Ambush to remove the remainder of the sniping penalty to hide.
This character has Woodland Archer, thereby ignoring all concealment after the first hit for 1 round. Additionally this also grants +4 to hit for each miss for 1 round. 350 average damage left at +40 to hit after 10 misses.
This character gave up trap sense for penetrating strike to do half sneak attack dice to anything that bypasses sneak attacks as long as it flanks.
This character has Ranged Threat, allowing 15' threat with ranged weapons.
This character has gnomish crossbow sights on their weapons to allow sneak attacks from 90' away, and threatens from 75' away.
This character has items that give gives them mind-blank and a nystuls aura that hides the magical aura their items are giving off.

Unseen attackers cause defenders to lose their dexterity bonus to AC. This does NOT mean they are flat-footed, there's a difference. IF arguments persist that the foresight spell STILL negates this, then simply pay a kid a few gold to 'threaten' the defender at the right moment to cause him to be flanked.

Granted, I didn't read all the pages in this thread, I just wanted to give a simple answer to the question and move on, but I'd elaborate if anyone asked. I've been trying to find ways to find such a sniper as a caster(without PC knowing ANYTHING about them), so any thoughts are welcome. I'll answer questions best I can.

[Kyrthain]

Wizard goes first. Windwall.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

Force projectiles penetrate windwall. If you have arguments against that. The rogue simply remains hidden until the wizard is in public, and attacks him while hidden, allowing him the first action.

I thought it was obvious the sniper won't attack a wizard in a duel style.

[Killer Angel]

Force projectiles penetrate windwall. If you have arguments against that. The rogue simply remains hidden until the wizard is in public, and attacks him while hidden, allowing him the first action.

I thought it was obvious the sniper won't attack a wizard in a duel style.

Leaving aside the force effect Vs windwall, in this kind of thread, usually the wizard use, as a basic combo, Foresight plus Celerity, so he's not surprised neither flat footed, and goes first.

[BeholderSlayer]

Contact Other Plane and Shapechange also ensure that a high level wizard is never surprised, never caught flat footed. Contact Other Plane reveals threats that will happen, and even if the rogue somehow circumvents this the wizard remains shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise so he always acts in any surprise round.

Also, a high level wizard is completely and utterly immune to sneak attack. Heavy Fortification guarantees this.

[Tiki Snakes]

I still think ubercharge the guy on his shopping trip is the way. He'll have scried extensively, but the event he will be informed about if he prys enough to identify the threat, is that he will be attacked by an angry mop-weilding fellow dressed as a bunny-rabbit.

Sure, he's entirely likely to be able to jaunt away, or obliterate you instantly.
But if your disguise makes you look rediculous enough, you may just trigger enough wizardly arrogance and confusion that you'll get a hit in after all. And even if you are using the Janitor's mop, if you are doing several hundred power attack damage with it, he'd be a dead wizard.

Feels more likely to work, in a weird way, than any combination of rogue/s being all serious and competant.

[Adumbration]

Out of curiosity, what 21 spells would people get as Craft contingency for their wizard?

You can say that the wizard can change his spells every day - or more often, with Uncanny forethought - but it costs XP and gold to make contingencies, and so there should be a fairly solid list of spells.

[Radar]

Out of curiosity, what 21 spells would people get as Craft contingency for their wizard?

You can say that the wizard can change his spells every day - or more often, with Uncanny forethought - but it costs XP and gold to make contingencies, and so there should be a fairly solid list of spells.
I guess most of them would just fire a Celerity or Teleport spell. The real trick is in proper wording of all those contingencies in order to cover all possible threats.

[Adumbration]

I guess most of them would just fire a Celerity or Teleport spell. The real trick is in proper wording of all those contingencies in order to cover all possible threats.

I'm mucking about a character build to assassinate a Schrödinger wizard, and this pleases me immensely.

I would be very interested in seeing specific wordings and contingencies, to get a proper idea of how much a wizard can be prepared against.

For the record, I think I've already penetrated the Magnificent Mansion and Astral Projection problems. Now I'm trying to deal with the contingencies, which is immensely more difficult due to the sheer vagueness of the wizard builds.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm mucking about a character build to assassinate a Schrödinger wizard, and this pleases me immensely.

I would be very interested in seeing specific wordings and contingencies, to get a proper idea of how much a wizard can be prepared against.

For the record, I think I've already penetrated the Magnificent Mansion and Astral Projection problems. Now I'm trying to deal with the contingencies, which is immensely more difficult due to the sheer vagueness of the wizard builds.

I'd like to see how you think you're penetrating a Magnificent Mansion and getting around Astral Projection.

[Adumbration]

I'd like to see how you think you're penetrating a Magnificent Mansion and getting around Astral Projection.

Silver key 10th level capstone Master of Doors gets you in MM. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)


Master of Doors (Su): At 10th level, you have reached the pinnacle of a silver key's prowess, this potent ability allows you to make use of any magic door or portal you come across as though you had the specific ability to do so. In particular, you can bypass arcane lock spells as though you yourself had cast them, ignore glyphs of warding as though you knew the password (even glyphs that have no password), and bypass the magic of a hold portal as though you could cast knock at will.

Your power even extends to portals created or maintained by magic. You can follow another character through a phase door, and can enter a Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, a dragonmark demesne (see page 149), and similar structures regardless of whether the caster designated you as one of the creatures able to enter. This ability does not confer any advantage when dealing with mundane locks or doors.

Stealing, bribing or being a Githyanki will get you the Silver Sword to sever the cord that binds him, instantly killing him. If I can get close enough.

At the moment I'm wrestling with the aforementioned contingencies and locating the MM. Elemental Weirds or a hired psion may see some use there.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Out of curiosity, what 21 spells would people get as Craft contingency for their wizard?

You can say that the wizard can change his spells every day - or more often, with Uncanny forethought - but it costs XP and gold to make contingencies, and so there should be a fairly solid list of spells.

Dimension door is pretty popular, as are other get-the-heck-outta-dodge spells. A lot are keyed to verbal commands, but obviously other contingencies will be in place in case of areas of silence and whatnot. Basically anything that keeps ol' wizzy alive long enough to act.

[Adumbration]

Dimension door is pretty popular, as are other get-the-heck-outta-dodge spells. A lot are keyed to verbal commands, but obviously other contingencies will be in place in case of areas of silence and whatnot. Basically anything that keeps ol' wizzy alive long enough to act.

Are Craft Continged spells tied to your highest caster level, or do they generally use the lowest possible (following the general rules for magic items)?