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Zaydos
2010-09-17, 01:26 PM
Okay I started thinking, what is the fluff behind marks and their not stacking in 4e; or at least how do people fluff it in their games. For example what does it really mean for a fighter to mark a target and why from a fluff viewpoint can't two fighters mark the target (from a crunch viewpoint it is completely understandable). Fighters aren't the only ones I'm concerned with, but they are the one that is the hardest for me to explain (I have to reread the sections on Warden and Battlemind marks before I can even think about theirs), so I wanted other people's ideas.

Urpriest
2010-09-17, 01:31 PM
For Fighters, the idea is that you're up in the target's space, drawing their attention and making it inconvenient for them to focus on others. If two fighters try to mark the same target, they would just end up getting in eachother's way, so one must pull back and give ground to the other.

Kurald Galain
2010-09-17, 01:41 PM
One of the weird things is that a martial mark overrides a divine one.

Swordmage marks are really weird: you can teleport you enemy around whenever you like, but only if he's hitting your friend.

Zaydos
2010-09-17, 01:45 PM
Hence I have questions. I love the mechanic (it might be my favorite 4e mechanic; although that might be because I was stopping 23 damage from the enemies when they didn't target me and they never bothered to target me because my AC was good) but I don't quite understand the fluff behind it.

Also I forgot about Ensnaring Swordmages :smallredface: I remembered Assaulting Swordmages (I teleport to hit you if you hit my ally) and played a Shielding Swordmage (it's the only time I played a defender so my thoughts are shaped largely by that).

Dekkah
2010-09-17, 01:50 PM
The way I fluff that fighter mark is simply that the fighter keep pressure on the target (by constantly harrassing him with feints, nugging him with his weapon, vocal treaths...). So the marked enemy his disturbed by the fighter pressure and pay dearly if he decide to ignore it (trigger it).

Zaydos
2010-09-17, 01:53 PM
The way I fluff that fighter mark is simply that the fighter keep pressure on the target (by constantly harrassing him with feints, nugging him with his weapon, vocal treaths...). So the marked enemy his disturbed by the fighter pressure and pay dearly if he decide to ignore it (trigger it).

That makes sense, but why does another fighter keeping pressure on the target make it stop working?

Kurald Galain
2010-09-17, 01:53 PM
Overall it's not all that hard to fluff the marking ability, but it seems impossible to fluff it in a way that is actually consistent with the rules on marking.

shadowmage
2010-09-17, 01:56 PM
One of the weird things is that a martial mark overrides a divine one.

Swordmage marks are really weird: you can teleport you enemy around whenever you like, but only if he's hitting your friend.
For me a Swordmage Mark is a magical link link that I only use when I have to. It's "Hey buddy touch my friend and I am going to do this to you." Runs over and lays some smack down on his friend. He say yea what ever hits the wizard, I then teleport back, because if he had not hit my friend I am still worrying about the guy hitting me now, "Hey remember me? Remember what I did to your friend on the ground over there bleeding out? I told you not to hit my friends." Lays down some smack down.

For me a Fighter Mark is Conan Flexing saying "I am pumped up and I will crush you if you hit my friend." When Thud the fighter comes along he flexes or threatens just a little more or is freasher in his mind and he looks out for him more.

Martial vs Divine not real sure about that. Maybe it is a bit of the gods wanting to take a step back and let mortals handle thier own thing? A hey I could smite him but hey that mortal took over the smiting so I can "look" over here?

Mando Knight
2010-09-17, 01:59 PM
That makes sense, but why does another fighter keeping pressure on the target make it stop working?

Because the other guy saying "He's MINE!" means that you have to give up your right to hold the guy down. It's like reverse-dibs.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-17, 02:02 PM
As Urpriest said, it's because the second fighter is getting into the first fighter's way.
If a magical mark from a paladin is overriden, it's because he sees that the enemy is honorably fighting another warrior of equal might. If it's an evil paladin, he drops it because he can't be arsed to focus a light/necrotic/mean-beam, and lets the other dude whack the poor fool who crossed their ways.
If a paladin's mark overrides that of the fighter, it's that the fighter sees that the paladin is charging his (weak) ion cannon, and he'd rather not be hit.
And swordmages are wizards with swords.

Background lore explanation (or fluff) are the most easiest thing to explain anything in any game, as long as you're actually capable of using your imagination in the first place...

Zaq
2010-09-17, 03:05 PM
I firmly believe that 4e combat takes place on a stage. (Have you ever played Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door? Kinda like that.) Making a mark messes with the spotlight. You can fluff that two ways (maybe depending on the mark). In the first way, the spotlight comes down on the Defender (who is now brightly lit, and thus easier to hit than anyone else)... and if he's ignored, well, he's got the spotlight on him, so he's totally free to do something flashy and painful to the enemy. With the other method, the spotlight is then on the target... who then must follow the script, which in this case involves hitting the defender and not the defender's buddies. If he deviates from the script, well, everyone's watching him, so he gets nervous (thus the penalty to attack rolls) and the crowd cheers on the defender's method of punishment, which allows him to get away with acting out of turn.

Incidentally, 4e combat being on-stage also explains why powers have recharge times (the audience just won't stand for the same trick used over and over if it's too flashy... plus, you use up the special effects budget if you're just spamming daily after daily) and why minions die so easily (they're aware that they're just extras and bit players, and obediently lie down or flee when the real characters smack them), among other things. (Oh, and I also believe that 4e characters can see the five-foot grid lines of the world if they squint, but that has nothing to do with them being on-stage when they fight.)

Eorran
2010-09-17, 03:11 PM
The best explanation I saw was that marking distracts the target. It loses the focus necessary to avoid being:
hit by the Fighter
smote by the Paladin
teleported by the swordmage
etc.

You can only be distracted by one thing at a time, since being distracted after being distracted is my day at work just shifts your focus.
Specific effects, like teleporting because you distracted him, are a little farfetched. Most of those are magical, and come down to A Wizard Did It.

DeltaEmil
2010-09-17, 03:13 PM
I hope that 5th edition D&D will have "Bros. Moves" like in Mario e Luigi: Superstar Saga. Then two and more characters can combine their attacks to either form Captain Planet (a daily power), or do other funky and cool stuff all together, without having to rely on warlords.
Team Combo Super Power Advance.

Fighter uses encounter mark ability. Every other hero shoots lasers from their eyes while spin-kicking the target if he moves or attacks any other target than the fighter. 9999 damage.

Something like that, perhaps a bit toned down. :p