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Zhalath
2010-09-17, 08:03 PM
I was considering making a Changeling Swordsage (unarmed variant)/Warshaper, so I can extend my hand an extra 5 feet and suck people's Str out.
I realize, though, that I am not the best optimizer, so, I ask you this, o skilled ones of optimization, what I should I take? Specifically, I'm looking for feats and other classes/PrCs that might be worth a dip. Mebbe some skills too. Roll to aid another?

Starbuck_II
2010-09-17, 08:09 PM
I was considering making a Changeling Swordsage (unarmed variant)/Warshaper, so I can extend my hand an extra 5 feet and suck people's Str out.
I realize, though, that I am not the best optimizer, so, I ask you this, o skilled ones of optimization, what I should I take? Specifically, I'm looking for feats and other classes/PrCs that might be worth a dip. Mebbe some skills too. Roll to aid another?

Don't forget the immunity to Critical/stunning from warshaper.

Zhalath
2010-09-17, 08:11 PM
Don't forget the immunity to Critical/stunning from warshaper.

I forgot about that. When I look again, it also has Fast Healing. Wow.
Is there other shapeshifter subtype stuff I can take advantage of?

Thurbane
2010-09-17, 08:40 PM
Soul Eater (BoVD) is a great PrC for any unarmed/natural attack character (grants Level Drain touch, full BAB, 3 good saves, decent skills). Unfortunately, I don't think you can qualify as a humanoid.

If you can eat the LA, you could take the Feral template to become a Monstrous Humanoid...also depends how much cheese your DM allows, I guess.

Zhalath
2010-09-17, 08:53 PM
Soul Eater (BoVD) is a great PrC for any unarmed/natural attack character (grants Level Drain touch, full BAB, 3 good saves, decent skills). Unfortunately, I don't think you can qualify as a humanoid.

If you can eat the LA, you could take the Feral template to become a Monstrous Humanoid...also depends how much cheese your DM allows, I guess.

I'm familiar with the template. In fact, if combined with warshaper, that just gets more and more awesome. I can buff my claws. Great idea.

Does Soul Eater have an alignment restriction? The most evil I can manage is "malicious indifference".

Fouredged Sword
2010-09-17, 08:55 PM
I also throws you straight into evil-land to do that. I would suggest mixing up swordsage with barbarian to get pounce(as you are not going for full ToB progression anyway). Maybe dip two levels of totemist to grab grallion arms and bind them to your totem slot for four extra claw attacks. They are all natural attacks that will benifit from the increased damage ability of warshaper. (I am pretty sure at least).

Snapkick and supreme unarmed strike are two more attacks to your charging full attack.

If you do that multi-attack and it's supreme form are a must. You can easily get 7 or more natual attacks to throw around at all full bab on a charge. Get something with continuous mighty wallop and go to town.

Thurbane
2010-09-17, 09:00 PM
I'm familiar with the template. In fact, if combined with warshaper, that just gets more and more awesome. I can buff my claws. Great idea.

Does Soul Eater have an alignment restriction? The most evil I can manage is "malicious indifference".
Yeah, evil only, unfortunately.

Zhalath
2010-09-17, 09:01 PM
Snapkick and supreme unarmed strike are two more attacks to your charging full attack.


I'm familiar with how to get Pounce (and I will certainly do that), and I do have Magic of Incarnum (consider that much less), but where are Snapkick and Supreme Unarmed Strike?

Also, I take it I should take IUS and then Superior Unarmed at 3rd level? Or is there a better way to hurt people without weapons? Template maybe?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-17, 09:06 PM
I'm familiar with how to get Pounce (and I will certainly do that), and I do have Magic of Incarnum (consider that much less), but where are Snapkick and Supreme Unarmed Strike?

Also, I take it I should take IUS and then Superior Unarmed at 3rd level? Or is there a better way to hurt people without weapons? Template maybe?

Snap Kick is in Tome of Battle. One extra natural attack for a -2 on all attacks that round. Basically a gimp-flurry.

Go unarmed Swordsage. Then get Superior UnarmedStrike (don't need IUS since you already have monk unarmed attacks). Then get Improved Natural Attack feat for another size increase to your damage.

Or, instead of Superior Unarmed Strike, just get a Monk's Belt, which does the same thing, and doesn't blow a feat. There are some things you can get by throwing your WBL at it.

Thurbane
2010-09-17, 09:10 PM
You might find this useful: Extra attacks, natural attacks, AoO (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127463)

Zhalath
2010-09-17, 09:10 PM
Snap Kick is in Tome of Battle. One extra natural attack for a -2 on all attacks that round. Basically a gimp-flurry.

Go unarmed Swordsage. Then get Superior UnarmedStrike (don't need IUS since you already have monk unarmed attacks). Then get Improved Natural Attack feat for another size increase to your damage.

Or, instead of Superior Unarmed Strike, just get a Monk's Belt, which does the same thing, and doesn't blow a feat. There are some things you can get by throwing your WBL at it.

How do I have monk unarmed attacks?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-17, 09:25 PM
How do I have monk unarmed attacks?

Swordsage, Unarmed variant. Loose armor proficency in exchange for a monk's unarmed attack. Your original post specified Swordsage (Unarmed variant). You already possess this.

Zhalath
2010-09-17, 09:30 PM
Swordsage, Unarmed variant. Loose armor proficency in exchange for a monk's unarmed attack. Your original post specified Swordsage (Unarmed variant). You already possess this.

...I'm an idiot. Yes, yes I do. Well, one less concern.

Master_Rahl22
2010-09-17, 10:06 PM
Snap Kick is most certainly not "gimp flurry" it's better. It's an extra attack every time you attack. Charge without pounce? Extra attack. Use a strike? Extra attack. I don't remember for sure, but it may even give you an extra attack on AoOs. It's an excellent feat if you're unarmed attacks are anything more than the basic 1d4.

Awnetu
2010-09-17, 11:11 PM
Heh, I dont think any sane DM would allow the soul eater at all anyways, so no loss there.

Initiate of the Draconic Order or something along those lines from the Draconomicon might work for you though?

The monk handbook also lists the Fist of the Forest PrC which is pretty solid, 3 level dip for some handy bonuses.

Bear Warrior from Complete warrior would give you a sweet boost to Str while allowing you to make a bite attack in addition to your unarmed attacks. Also, makes you large, so with Warshaper, your reach becomes 15 feet.

@Master Rahl, Awesome taste in books.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-17, 11:20 PM
If you're going to make a Changeling with Warshaper levels, be sure to let the DM know just how questionable that combination is ahead of time and see if he'd allow it to work. You can qualify for the prestige class unquestionably, but the Minor Change Shape ability which emulates Disguise Self may not be enough to activate any of the class features:

"All the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."

Minor Change Shape can disguise your hands as claws, but does not grant you claw attacks. It can disguise your skin as scales, but does not improve your natural armor. You can make it appear as though you have horns and big sharp teeth, but you would not gain a gore or bite attack via that ability. It physically disguises your character as something different, but it doesn't actually change you into whatever you're disguising yourself as. For this reason, many DMs will not allow a Changeling using Minor Change Shape to benefit from any of their Warshaper class features. If you make the character and play it as though this works without telling the DM, and he suspects it's not legitimate and investigates, he may think you've intentionally tried to pull a fast one when he realizes just how questionable it is.

Zhalath
2010-09-18, 10:25 PM
If you're going to make a Changeling with Warshaper levels, be sure to let the DM know just how questionable that combination is ahead of time and see if he'd allow it to work. You can qualify for the prestige class unquestionably, but the Minor Change Shape ability which emulates Disguise Self may not be enough to activate any of the class features:

"All the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."

Minor Change Shape can disguise your hands as claws, but does not grant you claw attacks. It can disguise your skin as scales, but does not improve your natural armor. You can make it appear as though you have horns and big sharp teeth, but you would not gain a gore or bite attack via that ability. It physically disguises your character as something different, but it doesn't actually change you into whatever you're disguising yourself as. For this reason, many DMs will not allow a Changeling using Minor Change Shape to benefit from any of their Warshaper class features. If you make the character and play it as though this works without telling the DM, and he suspects it's not legitimate and investigates, he may think you've intentionally tried to pull a fast one when he realizes just how questionable it is.

He's alright with it.

I don't see the benefits of Fist of the Forest. All I see is a damage bonus, some fast movement, not-as-good-rage, and scent, in exchange for some cross class skills I don't want to take.

FMArthur
2010-09-18, 10:39 PM
Snap Kick is in Tome of Battle. One extra natural attack for a -2 on all attacks that round. Basically a gimp-flurry.

Go unarmed Swordsage. Then get Superior UnarmedStrike (don't need IUS since you already have monk unarmed attacks). Then get Improved Natural Attack feat for another size increase to your damage.

Or, instead of Superior Unarmed Strike, just get a Monk's Belt, which does the same thing, and doesn't blow a feat. There are some things you can get by throwing your WBL at it.

When you are trying to optimize unarmed/natural attacks in particular, never say "instead of". The phrase is "in addition to". :smallamused:

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-18, 11:38 PM
Snap Kick is most certainly not "gimp flurry" it's better. It's an extra attack every time you attack. Charge without pounce? Extra attack. Use a strike? Extra attack. I don't remember for sure, but it may even give you an extra attack on AoOs. It's an excellent feat if you're unarmed attacks are anything more than the basic 1d4.

Technically it's "gimp-flurry" in the sense that it does what people using flurry always wanted: more than one attack in the same action, particularly after movement. That is why Pounce and swift-action moves are so important, and why Flurry usually doesn't work.

Though, IIRC its every time you make a melee attack. Flurry? Add Snap Kick (it's a full attack action, but it actually is making an attack with a melee weapon, which is your unarmed strike). Attack of Opportunity? Counts as a melee attack with a melee weapon, so it's another hit. Decisive Strike? Full-round action, but you're still making a melee attack with a melee weapon (and at double damage at best). So it's really more than just a flurry. It's somewhat like taking Necklace of Natural Attacks, add the Keen property to natural attacks, and then use Snap Kick and Roundhouse Kick (extra unarmed strike when dealing with a critical hit). Or for even more hilarity, taking Necklace of Natural Attacks, add the Keen and Aptitude property to natural attacks, and then use Snap Kick and Roundhouse Kick (extra unarmed strike when dealing with a critical hit) and Three Mountains (treating your Aptitude-enhanced unarmed strikes as light maces for purposes of activating this feat, though it relies on two odd readings).

However, it's not as potent when you realize it's still an unarmed attack, with no other modifier (unless you're using Decisive Strike, in which you have an attack that deals 2x damage, or a boost that enhances all melee attacks on one round).


If you're going to make a Changeling with Warshaper levels, be sure to let the DM know just how questionable that combination is ahead of time and see if he'd allow it to work. You can qualify for the prestige class unquestionably, but the Minor Change Shape ability which emulates Disguise Self may not be enough to activate any of the class features:

"All the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own."

Minor Change Shape can disguise your hands as claws, but does not grant you claw attacks. It can disguise your skin as scales, but does not improve your natural armor. You can make it appear as though you have horns and big sharp teeth, but you would not gain a gore or bite attack via that ability. It physically disguises your character as something different, but it doesn't actually change you into whatever you're disguising yourself as. For this reason, many DMs will not allow a Changeling using Minor Change Shape to benefit from any of their Warshaper class features. If you make the character and play it as though this works without telling the DM, and he suspects it's not legitimate and investigates, he may think you've intentionally tried to pull a fast one when he realizes just how questionable it is.

Umm...Changeling qualifies for...being a shapechanger. The reason why the Changeling qualifies as a shapechanger is because of its "Minor Change Shape" ability, which actually specifies that it's a physical change. Everything works fine: otherwise, the Shifter wouldn't qualify either because Shifting isn't an alternate form or "a form other than his (or her) own"; the Shifter only unleashes some qualities. Barghests explicitly qualify, but their change shape ability would be equally questionable (which form is not their own: the wolf form or the goblin form?).

Warshaper implies that you have acquired greater mastery with your shapechanging abilities; much as a shapechanger can transform back into its own form whenever it is subject to a polymorph spell as a move action (including and specifically referring to Baleful Polymorph), they gain the ability to rearrange their bodies to hide their internal organs (just as their internal organs must shrink, grow or change when they transform), they become stronger and hardier, their extremities stretch much longer, they begin to develop claws and fangs, and so on.

In fact, one of the clearest and most well-defined abilities of shapechanging is that of a changeling. They are shapechangers, and they physically transform into different creatures: they can change from a tall human into a slim elf, or a stout dwarf, but their transformation is real, not cosmetic. What they don't gain are the extraordinary or supernatural special qualities of each (so while a changeling can change into an elf, it doesn't have low-light vision unless the changeling has it); that's what the similarity to Disguise Self is. Otherwise, you should disregard the entire chapter on Races of Eberron that describes changelings.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-19, 09:24 AM
When you are trying to optimize unarmed/natural attacks in particular, never say "instead of". The phrase is "in addition to". :smallamused:

They explicitly don't stack. So it is one or the other.

Starbuck_II
2010-09-19, 09:44 AM
He's alright with it.

I don't see the benefits of Fist of the Forest. All I see is a damage bonus, some fast movement, not-as-good-rage, and scent, in exchange for some cross class skills I don't want to take.

Fist also adds Con to AC. You are obviously a monk entering meaning Wis and Con to AC.

Awnetu
2010-09-19, 10:37 AM
They explicitly don't stack. So it is one or the other.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

The section on Natural Attacks & Unarmed Attacks.




Just as a creature can add weapon attacks to a full attack made with natural weapons, so too can it combine unarmed attacks with natural weapons. Two options are available to accomplish this task.

A creature can choose to treat its unarmed attacks as its primary attacks and its natural weapons as secondary attacks. (This method is normally used to add weapon attacks to a natural attack routine.) The creature must make all unarmed attacks with its primary limb, which prevents that hand from being used for a natural attack such as a claw or slam. It uses its full base attack bonus for the natural attack, gaining additional attacks as normal for a high base attack bonus, and adds its full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Of course, each of these attacks provokes an attack of opportunity if the target is unarmed (unless the creature has Improved Unarmed Strike). However, its natural weapons all become secondary attacks, taking the -5 penalty on attack rolls (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) and adding only half the monster's Strength bonus on damage rolls.

A simpler method is to treat the creature's unarmed attack as an off-hand attack. (After all, an unarmed strike is rarely as effective as a weapon attack would be, so it doesn't really merit the same level of priority in the average monster's attack array.) Instead of using its primary limb to deliver the unarmed attack, it uses a kick, head butt, or other appendage that isn't otherwise used to deliver a natural attack. The creature gains one unarmed strike, which deals damage appropriate to its size plus half its Strength bonus (since it's an off-hand attack). A creature using this method suffers a -4 penalty on all attacks (since it's effectively fighting with two weapons and its off-hand weapon is light). The damage for its natural attacks is unchanged. This method requires fewer calculations on the fly, so it's probably easier to use in play.

Let's look at the nalfeshnee for an example of how each of these methods would work in play.

A nalfeshnee using the first method would have three unarmed attacks (thanks to its base attack bonus of +14). Applying its size modifier, and Strength modifier, the nalfeshnee's total attack modifiers for its three natural attacks are +19, +14, and +9. These natural attacks each deal 1d6+7 points of nonlethal damage. Each of the nalfeshnee's natural weapons takes a -2 penalty for a secondary natural weapon (thanks to the nalfeshnee's Multiattack feat) and gains only half the nalfeshnee's Strength modifier to damage, which gives it two secondary attacks, as follows: one bite +18 (2d8+3) and one claw +17 (1d8+3); it loses one claw attack in order to make unarmed attacks with its primary limb.

Using the second method, the nalfeshnee's natural attacks are made at a -4 penalty (bite +16, 2 claws +13) but deal normal damage. It then makes one unarmed attack at +15 (+14 for base attack bonus, -2 for size, +7 for Strength, -4 for off-hand light weapon) that deals 1d6+3 points of nonlethal damage.



Eidt: Oops, misunderstood.

lsfreak
2010-09-19, 11:57 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

The section on Natural Attacks & Unarmed Attacks.


They were talking about Monk's Belt versus Superior Unarmed Strike, which both increase from the actual monk level. If you have an item that grants +5 from your actual monk level and a feat that gives+4 from your actual monk level, you only get the +5. It's not uncommon to see it houseruled, though, from my understanding.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-09-19, 03:23 PM
They were talking about Monk's Belt versus Superior Unarmed Strike, which both increase from the actual monk level. If you have an item that grants +5 from your actual monk level and a feat that gives+4 from your actual monk level, you only get the +5. It's not uncommon to see it houseruled, though, from my understanding.

Precisely. Superior Unarmed Strike and monk's belt don't stack because they give the same type of bonus.

Thurbane
2010-09-19, 05:08 PM
Is it an unnamed bonus type, or is it called out as insight or such?