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Jergmo
2010-09-17, 08:24 PM
Alright, so I'm struggling a bit trying to make myself satisfied with my Paladin of Tyranny villain, here, and was hoping the folk of the Playground could help. This is her build as of now. I know there are flaws to and fro, but I was trying to make a concept work - but, I realize that it could still be salvaged by other means.

Minerva de Ariete: 5th level half-elf tyrant/2nd level marshal. CR: 8 - Lawful Evil
HP: 55 Init: +2 AC: 18 (+8 defense bonus) or 20 (with +2 masterwork mithral shield)
Attack: Adamantine greatsword +11 melee (2d6+4) or masterwork warhammer +11 melee (1d8+3) or masterwork composite longbow (+3 bonus) +8 ranged (1d8+3)
Full Attack: Adamantine greatsword +11/+6 melee (2d6+4) or masterwork warhammer +11/+6 melee (1d8+3) or masterwork composite longbow (+3 bonus) +8/+3 ranged (1d8+3)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +11
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18(20)
Skills: Balance +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +13, Knowledge(religion) +5, Listen +13, Ride +5, Sense Motive +12, Spot +13
Feats: Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Skill Focus(Diplomacy)B, Divine Commander (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168773)
Aura of evil, detect good, smite good 2/day, divine grace, deadly touch, aura of despair, rebuke undead, low-light vision, charm 1/day, +2 vs. enchantment, wild empathy, cure light wounds 1/day, special mount
Art of War: +5 morale bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Force of Will: +5 morale bonus on Will saves.
Over the Top: +5 morale bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Motivate Dexterity: +5 morale bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Attack: +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls.
Resilient Troops: +2 morale bonus on all saving throws.
Unholy symbol of Archelaeus, cloak of charisma +2, potion of magic weapon, 5 gold pieces

Defense Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant.

My half-elves:
"Half-Elf" is an inherited template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A Half-Elf has all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature's type changes to fey.

Special Attacks
A Half-Elf retains all the base creature's special attacks and gains those described below.

Charm (Su): This power works like the charm person spell (caster level 2nd), except that it is not limited to the humanoid type. The save DC is equal to (12 + Cha modifier). A half-elf can use this ability once per day.

Special Qualities
A Half-Elf retains all the base creature's special qualities and gains those described below.

Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against enchantment (charm) spells cast by half-elves. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.

+2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid's wild empathy class feature.

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Cha +2.

Skills
Half-elves have a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot and Spellcraft checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.

Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +1.

These attributes are based on a 40 pt. buy. Also note: I gave marshals full BAB. There may be a few things I need to fix, but this is for an analysis of the build in general. I'd like to maintain a very strong ability to disarm.

Soranar
2010-09-17, 09:28 PM
first off, marshals already have full BAB

Alright, so I'm struggling a bit trying to make myself satisfied with my Paladin of Tyranny villain, here, and was hoping the folk of the Playground could help. This is her build as of now. I know there are flaws to and fro, but I was trying to make a concept work - but, I realize that it could still be salvaged by other means.

it would help if you indicated what you were trying to accomplish: do you want to be combat oriented or a pushover leader that just attracts a lot of minions?

do you intend to fight on horseback? or are you going to ignore the mount ?

Minerva de Ariete: 5th level half-elf tyrant/2nd level marshal. CR: 7 - Lawful Evil

even with your template mod, half-elf is not worth it for a measely +2 Cha and some abilities, being a level 8 character would be stronger

HP: 55 Init: +2 AC: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 defense bonus) or 23 (with +3 masterwork mithral shield)

by level 7-8, a character should be able to afford magical equipment (although keep in mind whatever you give it will end up in your PCs hands after the fight)

Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18

at level 7, you cast all of 1 spell, I'd drop Wis for proper fighting stats and use the Complete champion variant to get 2 bonus feats

considering your high pts buy, you might as well keep 14 DEX to maximize your AC without giving too many magic items to your PCs

by the way, your current STATS = a 50 pts buy

revised STATS

Str 18, Dex, 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18

Skills: Balance +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +6, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +13, Knowledge(religion) +5, Listen +13, Ride +5, Sense Motive +12, Spot +13

Feats: Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Skill Focus(Diplomacy)

why diplomacy? I'd drop improved disarm for improved trip (more useful as it works against characters without weapons)

if you don't like weapons, just sunder them (much better than disarm with an adamantine weapon to do it)

Art of War: +5 morale bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Force of Will: +5 morale bonus on Will saves.
Over the Top: +5 morale bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Motivate Dexterity: +5 morale bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
Motivate Attack: +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls.
Resilient Troops: +2 morale bonus on all saving throws.
Unholy symbol of Archelaeus, cloak of charisma +2, potion of magic weapon, 5 gold pieces

for items, again I remind you that anything you give him might as well become a PC item , but you can make them evil aligned to reduce their usefulness to them (you can even them only usable by a paladin of tyranny or a Lawful evil character) to further reduce that drawback (they can still sell them but they'll lose a lot of value that way)

a good PrC for a paladin of tyranny is a blackguard (you don't fall and the Cha bonus to saves stacks, although after 2 levels you should look for something else if you intend to make him come back later)

the feat from smite to song lets you change your smite evil attempts into inspire courage like a bard of equal level (great ability for a leader, your mount would also be affected)

at level 8 that's +2 (your smite good bonus from tyranny and blackguard would stack)

so your progression would look like this

1 paladin combat expertise, from smite to song
2 paladin
3 paladin power attack
4 paladin bonus feat : cleave
5 paladin
6 paladin improved sunder
7 blackguard
8 blackguard

any character can project an aura in exchange of a feat btw (exactly like a marshal)

only if you're not dragonblooded you only get +1 to it (which is as high as a marshal level 2, but a level 7 dragonblooded would get +2)

the best way to get dragonblooded (in your case) would be the draconic template (+2 to STR, CON, CHA + natural attacks)

a sundering charge (with a lance from horseback) is quite evil btw (especially since smite good works against objects as it's not an evil aligned creature)

all the damage gets doubled

sundering and rust monsters are a DM's best friends , use them

your saves would be your CHA bonus x2 + your base , you shouldn't have any problem resisting everything they throw at you

EDIT:

nearly forgot, you can drop INT and drop combat expertise altogether if you go the sundering route (maybe pick a strong exotic weapon or an aura instead)

Jergmo
2010-09-17, 09:43 PM
-snip-

1.) I don't know what you're reading, but according to the Miniatures Handbook, marshals have Medium BAB.

2.) Combat-oriented, with leadership abilities. Her marshal auras benefit her as well, so hey.

3.) The mount is pretty much just there for travel.

4.) The template didn't increase her CR. Her higher point buy did. A level adjustment means diddly to an NPC! :smalltongue: They progress by CR.

5.) Her gear isn't really fixed right now, I was just fiddling around with things.

6.) I may well end up trading out for the bonus feats, yeah.

7.) You speak falsehoods! Str 16 = 10 points. Dex 14 = 6 points. Con 14 = 6 points. Int 14 = 6 points. Wis 14 = 6 points. Cha 15 = 8 points, attribute at 4th put into Cha, +2 Cha from half-elf. Total: 42 points.

8.) Giving her 8 Wis would just be plain foul from an RP standpoint. This isn't a min-max campaign. Minerva isn't the commander just because she's the best fighter in the force - she has a sharp mind.

9.) Greatswords are not trip weapons.

10.) I may just end up going for both disarm and sunder.

etc...

Another note on your edit, she has already appeared with her sword. I can't very well just say my players' characters' eyes were playing tricks on them!

Rezby
2010-09-17, 10:40 PM
smart stuff

This, but for mounts, I recommend this.

Malasynep (http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/Jonathon_Morris/Picture94.png) mount from Frostburn, with the Rollers (http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/Jonathon_Morris/Picture96.png) graft attached on it to give it 30 ft land speed, and the Feathered Wings (http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/Jonathon_Morris/Picture95.png) graft to give it 60 ft fly speed with average maneuverability. Both grafts are 10k each, but dude, think about it. You get an evil flying purpose on wheels that has every type of speed with all at decent/good movements. 30 ft land, 30 ft swim, 40 ft burrow (or maybe 40 ft swim and 30 ft burrow), 60 ft fly average.

Do that plus the sunder-charge. :3 Both grafts found in Fiend Folio, btw. Its a little expensive, but you now have a damn good mount.

Jergmo
2010-09-17, 10:53 PM
It's...

It's an ice Icthyosaur with steamroller legs and wings.

... :smallfrown:

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-18, 07:15 AM
I don't really think that adding a bit of Wis and Int to a class that doesn't use it really justifies a higher CR. It's good that you did add it, but it won't make it harder for the party to defeat her, so don't be throw her into the ring too soon. I personally recommend levels in Hexblade and Blackguard after three levels of Paladin; Paladin is pretty much weaksauce after level 3 (especially if you aren't really using the mount). Maybe something like Paladin 3/Marshal 2/Hexblade 1/Blackguard 2 (assuming CR 8)? This get's some debuff in addition to helping minions (and Cha to saves twice!), and if she's to be a recurring villain, you'll want to take a total of four or five levels in Hexblade and use the level 4 ACF from the PHB II for more debuff.

On the subject of feats, ditch Combat Expertise and Imp Disarm for Cleave and Sunder. They're more useful and prereqs for Blackguard, as mentioned above.

EDIT: Upon reading your Divine Commander feat, I can see why you'd want more levels of Paladin, but I don't think you really need that many auras. One or two would definitely suffice.

Soranar
2010-09-18, 08:56 AM
1.) I don't know what you're reading, but according to the Miniatures Handbook, marshals have Medium BAB.

according to my old crystalkeep file, they have a fighter BAB, maybe there are 2 classes called marshal or they just got it wrong



2.) Combat-oriented, with leadership abilities. Her marshal auras benefit her as well, so hey.

noted



3.) The mount is pretty much just there for travel.

then I'd recommend dropping it altogether (meaning taking less paladin levels)



4.) The template didn't increase her CR. Her higher point buy did. A level adjustment means diddly to an NPC! :smalltongue: They progress by CR.


yup, but LA is supposed to increase CR too , I guess we just have different DMing styles



7.) You speak falsehoods! Str 16 = 10 points. Dex 14 = 6 points. Con 14 = 6 points. Int 14 = 6 points. Wis 14 = 6 points. Cha 15 = 8 points, attribute at 4th put into Cha, +2 Cha from half-elf. Total: 42 points.


you included her magic item bonuses or something? cause I was reading CHA 20 (2 from the template, +8 pts buy total)



8.) Giving her 8 Wis would just be plain foul from an RP standpoint. This isn't a min-max campaign. Minerva isn't the commander just because she's the best fighter in the force - she has a sharp mind.


min-maxer reflex




9.) Greatswords are not trip weapons.


so she can't pick up another martial weapon? you have no weapon specific feat and martial proficiency, I don't see the problem



10.) I may just end up going for both disarm and sunder.


I guess that can work, but it feels redundant as they both target weapons (well actually sunder can target other things too)



Another note on your edit, she has already appeared with her sword. I can't very well just say my players' characters' eyes were playing tricks on them!

like I said, she can just pick up another weapon somewhere, it's not like it's a limb or something

Jergmo
2010-09-18, 10:17 AM
Things with a +1 LA typically don't get a CR increase. Hobgoblins, for example.

Jergmo
2010-09-18, 10:18 AM
I don't really think that adding a bit of Wis and Int to a class that doesn't use it really justifies a higher CR. It's good that you did add it, but it won't make it harder for the party to defeat her, so don't be throw her into the ring too soon. I personally recommend levels in Hexblade and Blackguard after three levels of Paladin; Paladin is pretty much weaksauce after level 3 (especially if you aren't really using the mount). Maybe something like Paladin 3/Marshal 2/Hexblade 1/Blackguard 2 (assuming CR 8)? This get's some debuff in addition to helping minions (and Cha to saves twice!), and if she's to be a recurring villain, you'll want to take a total of four or five levels in Hexblade and use the level 4 ACF from the PHB II for more debuff.

On the subject of feats, ditch Combat Expertise and Imp Disarm for Cleave and Sunder. They're more useful and prereqs for Blackguard, as mentioned above.

EDIT: Upon reading your Divine Commander feat, I can see why you'd want more levels of Paladin, but I don't think you really need that many auras. One or two would definitely suffice.

A couple levels in Hexblade would be pretty spiffy...

ArcanistSupreme
2010-09-18, 12:21 PM
A couple levels in Hexblade would be pretty spiffy...

And remember, then you can use Hexblade wands too.