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ffone
2010-09-18, 12:06 AM
...kidding.

I frequently must try to explain to other players why according to (my understand) of the rules - and sane balance in any case - the creating magic items formula for use-activated/continuous (without limited charges/day) can't be applied in a lot of the ways to a lot of the spells people think they can.

I'd like advice on how to explain this to players in a way that will get them to 1. accept it 2. not blame me or take it personally, but recognize it's the rules (and necessary for sane balance.)

My usual argument goes something like this:

"That table for pricing guidelines has a footnote for that line specifically, which people often miss or choose to ignore. That footnote gives price multipliers based on spell duration, which shorter-duration spells having higher multipliers. We can implicitly infer that ONLY spells with duration can be made into continuous items (the core items may have a few exceptions, but those shouldn't necessarily be 'generalized'). Think if 'instantaneous' spells as having a duration multiplier of infinity."

"So no endless Cure Light Wounds for 2,000 gp. And no Continuous True Strike for 2,000 gp, because while it does sort of have a duration ('See Text'), it also has the 1 attack limit. And even if there were such an item, it would take a standard action to 'cast' each time (with the attack being another standard action), NOT use-activated every time you swing the sword."

"Also, when the spell grants a numerical bonus to something, the bonus-squared formulae supersede the 2000 x caster level x spell level formula. For example, continuous bull's strength would be 12,000 gp, but we can see it's meant to be 16,000. Note that the core wondrous item granting it even use's bull's strength as the crafting spell, so it's not like the designers didn't realize this."

(The formula players are always pointing to is at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/creatingmagicitems.htm)

I would appreciate

- Any correction/counter-advice to my understanding/opinion
- Any advice on how to phrase it nicely to somewhat munchkiny players. I'm going off SRD and don't have DMG/PHB at the moment - is there some line that's more emphatic about this than the footnote.
- Thoughts/guidelines on when it is appropriate to make continuous-spell items. (I'd sort of like to give the group a continuous Detect Magic item to streamline looting, possibly requiring concentration when used, like the spell.) For example, Enlarge Person 'just' has a duration, and would be 4,000, but that seems a bit too cheap/nobrainer.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-18, 12:23 AM
They actually put in a book (or was it a Sage article?) how the designers would make and price a ring of continuous true strike.

Hirax
2010-09-18, 12:27 AM
Simple test for your players: if the spell has a duration of instantaneous, it can't be used to make a continuously active magic item.

ericgrau
2010-09-18, 12:51 AM
Ya, you got it right.

Detect magic and enlarge person are unusual spells that don't fit well on unlimited items as they are easily abused on them. I'd just give them a wand of detect magic for 375 gp. 50 charges is almost unlimited for every common application, except it won't always be active. That's the source of abuse as it can allow scouting, avoiding surprises, etc. Likewise give them a wand of enlarge person for 750 gp. In that case it's a matter of action economy; not spending a round making yourself large is a big power boost. Both wands are dirt cheap too.

But there are ways to get permanent versions of each using the permanency spell. I'd be tempted to make it 6,000 gp for each given the permanency xp costs relative to darkvision / goggles of the night, but enlarge person should really be dispellable and detect magic should really be on a caster only item (permanency also limits it to the caster). So "no" is a better price IMO. It's a shame people are so terrified of xp costs as a permanent enlarge person could be a good deal. And if xp costs ever do make you fall back a level, you gain xp faster until you soon catch up so the drawback is only temporary. So even if the permanency gets dispelled it's not the end of the world.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-18, 12:52 AM
First and foremost, "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" is a DM's tool for exactly what it says: Estimating. Players have absolutely no business referencing that table, if they want a custom magic item they get to tell the DM what they want it to do, and the DM assigns it a price based on its effects. That table contains zero rules, only guidelines for estimations. You have every right to overestimate a price, for example your continuous Bull's Strength item could be priced at 28,000 gp, since it contains both a spell effect worth 12,000 gp and an enhancement bonus worth 16,000 gp. If a player tries to assign a price to his own custom magic item based on that table, a DM has every right to tell him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, especially if it's grossly underpriced given its effect.

Greenish
2010-09-18, 03:54 AM
"So no endless Cure Light Wounds for 2,000 gp. While I agree with your larger point, I don't feel endless out of combat healing is abusive. For 1,500 gp, they'd get two wands of CLW (or even better, Lesser Vigor) for 100 castings, or two healing belts, each usable thrice each day.

CLW at CL 1 isn't really worth it in combat, but afterwards it's handy for topping everyone up.

[Edit]: MIC specifically mentions that it contains no custom item creation rules, because their effects vary so much and it's up to the DM to eyeball the price.

FelixG
2010-09-18, 05:15 AM
First and foremost, "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" is a DM's tool for exactly what it says: Estimating. Players have absolutely no business referencing that table,

This is a good response if your a GM who doesn't trust your players farther than you can throw them.

I have sat down lots of time with one of my favorite GMs and talked over item pricing with both of us referencing the table and coming up with fun ideas.

But one key thing to talk about with your players (and it is key to talk with your players not just "tell him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine) about power vs fun. You just have to ask them if they would find it fun if no encounter in the game offered no challenge whats so ever. Most reasonable players will figure out things that are in fitting with the theme of the campaign and wont try to cheese things up too much. If they insist let them have it, let them just breeze through the encounters, give them less experience as the CR is substantially lower.

Now, if they still don't realize what a mood killer it is, you use mundane methods to best them, have a boss kinda person show up with that item too (what villain wouldn't copy an item that gives such easy killing power?!) then he has a mundane suit of armor with +70 AC. You may call BS on this but, its well within the rules as long as you can make the craft check
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm
check for armor smithing: 10+AC bonus.

Then you can explain to them the fact that "just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD do something." ect

:D

Fizban
2010-09-18, 05:19 AM
First and foremost, "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" is a DM's tool for exactly what it says: Estimating. Players have absolutely no business referencing that table, if they want a custom magic item they get to tell the DM what they want it to do, and the DM assigns it a price based on its effects. That table contains zero rules, only guidelines for estimations. You have every right to overestimate a price, for example your continuous Bull's Strength item could be priced at 28,000 gp, since it contains both a spell effect worth 12,000 gp and an enhancement bonus worth 16,000 gp. If a player tries to assign a price to his own custom magic item based on that table, a DM has every right to tell him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, especially if it's grossly underpriced given its effect.

I disagree only because I don't see any problem with a player writing up a magic item they want before submitting it to the DM. The DM already has enough to do, so players should be able to handle their own characters, and if they want a custom item, prestige class, or other bit of game stuff, then the least they can do is provide some kind of writeup for the DM to look over. At which point the DM may then tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, or they can work something out.

Edit: haha, swordsage'd by FelixG.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-18, 05:24 AM
I disagree only because I don't see any problem with a player writing up a magic item they want before submitting it to the DM. The DM already has enough to do, so players should be able to handle their own characters, and if they want a custom item, prestige class, or other bit of game stuff, then the least they can do is provide some kind of writeup for the DM to look over. At which point the DM may then tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, or they can work something out.

Edit: haha, swordsage'd by FelixG.

The problem is not the players talking to the dm about making the item. The problem is making the item then bitching because the DM didn't allow it. It's very convenient to forget that the DM does have the final say on everything. And if the players abandon the dm because he didn't allow them to make a "permanent true strike" for 2k gold... Well, these players won't last anywhere.

Boren
2010-09-18, 10:17 AM
Ah yes the sword of true strike 4k gold (+1 and true strike). This little trick has been banned from my group mostly by gentleman's agreement that it throws things too far out of whack. However while some things get way off when you look at that chart others can be fine. I once made a sword that did shocking grasp on hit again only 2k for the spell and 2k for the +1. Now I can already hear some of you screaming about that should have cost you X its the same as the shock ability plus you'd get a +3 to hit...on and on and on...well...
1. It was use activated on hit meaning I never got the +3 I had to hit the thing firsts and at that point well a little late.
2. yes it did more damage than shock (was done in 3.0) BUT it was subject to SR where the shock weapon ability is not and given that it's CL 1 not much chance it's going to be getting through too much SR.
Anyway point of all this is that yes there is much room for abuse in the low level spells however its not all bad and some things do balance themselves out like my above example, good for low levels but becomes obsolete as the players climb the in power. A few suggestions along these lines that no you can't do X but I'd be fine if you perhaps wanted to do Y might help smooth out the lumps from your (justified :smallwink:) NO hammer.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-18, 10:22 AM
Honestly, so long as they have to activate it, an unlimited item of true strike wouldn't be at all bad. Action use is a massive balancing factor.

I almost never just say no, as a DM. I explain what the flaw is, then suggest alternative options to get them the bonus they're looking for in a somewhat balanced fashion.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-18, 10:29 AM
Personally I wouldn't allow a permanent true strike item with no action (is that was this thread is about? i hope so lol). I don't think I would let PC's make a permanent item of any instantaneous effect with no action use, actually...I can't think of one offhand that I would.

The item creation rules are guidelines, but pretty decent guidelines overall. They give you a nice estimate, and you can go from there. You have to look at similiarly priced items, and make a judgement call.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-18, 10:34 AM
You could always make the prank. It's a single true strike with continuous effect, which means once you hit, it's over forever, while the magic aura of the true strike spell remains...

Bayar
2010-09-18, 11:07 AM
You could always make the prank. It's a single true strike with continuous effect, which means once you hit, it's over forever, while the magic aura of the true strike spell remains...

That's not a prank. That's the DM being a douchebag.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-18, 11:12 AM
That's not a prank. That's the DM being a douchebag.

And players trying to weasel +20 insight to all attack rolls forever aren't?

WarKitty
2010-09-18, 11:16 AM
Well, we have a couple rules. The player always talks to the DM before crafting an item. The DM says before crafting begins what is and is not allowed. If the DM afterwards realizes that the item is overpowered, the player may retcon the crafting (and craft something else/pay the new higher price if allowed).

But yes. I would say instantaneous spells may be placed only in charged items (either straight charges or charges/day).

JBento
2010-09-18, 11:21 AM
That's not a prank. That's the DM being a douchebag.

No, it really is not - it's actually following the rules. If it's continuous, the item has a +20 bonus on the NEXT attack roll. After that, it retains the enchantment, but it does exactly squat (besides pinging Detect Magic) and, of course, it can't be reapplied. If it's use activated, then "meh" spending one standard action to get +20 on your next attack roll isn't THAT big a deal.

I don't see much trouble with an unlimited use, action-activated CLW either: it's not like you can get about as much utility out of 1-2 feats...

Soranar
2010-09-18, 11:25 AM
actually the rules clearly state that true strike can never be a permanent bonus

true strike is instantaneous , as such whatever magic item you make would have charges /day of the spell, not all day long

following your logic you could also make a sword of fireball that blasts permanently

same reason you can't extend or persist it :

from SRD : An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Skorj
2010-09-18, 02:54 PM
Obviously, instantaneous effects can't be made continuous. The cheese is in making it use-activated.


This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword ...

So, if True Strike were activated whenever you swing your sword, it wouldn't need to be continuous to have the same effect. However, the key is that the SRD goes on to say


Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all ...

No guidance is given as to when activation is a standard action, and when it's a non-action. So, rule True Strike as a standard action, and there's really no room for players to complain (not that it would stop some).

Keep in mind, however, that True Strike is situationally quite powerful. If you need a 16 to hit, then alternating True Strike with attacking will double your damage output. Being able to reliably make a bow shot at extreme range can break encounters. But since all of that is still true with a wand, enchanting a weapon with (standard action flavored) use-activated true strike isn't that different. It should realistically be a very common magic item given it's usefulness to price ratio, vastly more dangerous to a high AC target than a +1 weapon!

Bayar
2010-09-18, 05:54 PM
And players trying to weasel +20 insight to all attack rolls forever aren't?

Try this:

Player: Hey DM, could I get my sword enchanted so it got True strike whenever I attack ? According to the rules, it should cost 2 K gold.

Posible DM responces:
- that sounds kinda overpriced, lets tweak it until it's more realistically priced
- those are not hard rules, those are guidelines for the dm. Let me adjust the enchantment a bit
-sounds kinda overpowered if it does not require activation. But if you spend a standard action to activate it, it would be somewhat reasonable
-NO.
-sure ! (after first attack) Enjoy your magic weapon that just used up it's power forever, loser. At least it has a more powerful magic aura, it will allow those asassins to look for you after you run away from them because you cannot match their 35 AC. Loser !

mabriss lethe
2010-09-18, 06:13 PM
you could always have a resetting magic trap of true strike in your boot heel.

PinkysBrain
2010-09-18, 07:08 PM
A set of rules to try to make custom magic items priceable without DM intervention :

Custom magic item creation house rules

General

Activation times for items which reproduce spell effects are the same as the casting time, unless otherwise noted here.
AC bonus (other) items can not be designed by PCs.
Save bonus (other) items can not be designed by PCs.
Items with a cost independent of caster level can have their caster level upgraded by a character with the prerequisite item creation feat working on the item for 1 day.
When a spell occurs on a the spell list of a "full" spell casting class use that version for pricing purposes.

Skill bonus items

Prerequisite for an item which provides a skill bonuses is 5 ranks in the skill, and a caster level equal to the bonus.
Maximum bonus for skills based on physical ability scores is 15, and 10 for skills based on mental ability scores.

Command word activated items

At default cost an item can be used 5x a day unless charged, in which case it can be used at will. The number of uses can be changed by proportionally changing the price.

Continuous and use activated items which reproduce spell effects

Can not be put into unslotted items. Continuous effects can only be put on rings, only a single one per ring.
Only spells with duration dependent on caster level or a duration of a minute or more can be made into use activated or continuous items.
Only spell effects with "true" duration can be use activated or continuous. If only part of the spell effect can be discharged, disrupted or depleted that part is simply never granted by the item.
Decisions made about the spell normally decided at casting are decided at item creation, a character with the prerequisite item creation feat can change the decision after creation by working on the item for 1 day.

Use activated items

Spell needs to have a casting time of 1 standard action or less.
Duration based cost multipliers don't apply.
Activation is a swift action, deactivation a free action.
Activation is split up as the wearer desires.
Maximum total activation time per day is the normal duration of the spell.
Deactivates when the effect is dispelled.

Additional cost multipliers

Spell with personal range 1 1/2x
Spell with more than 2 potential beneficiaries 1/2x.
Spell with more than 4 potential beneficiaries 1/3x.

Multiple abilities per item

Items can have up to 2 separate abilities (the existing properties of a non custom item count as one ability).
An item can only have a single ability if it is outside it's slot affinity.

Flickerdart
2010-09-18, 07:15 PM
Let them have it, then introduce them to the wonderful world of miss chance stacking. :smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2010-09-18, 07:16 PM
Try this:

Player: Hey DM, could I get my sword enchanted so it got True strike whenever I attack ? According to the rules, it should cost 2 K gold.

Posible DM responces:

The real response is: "What rules? There are no rules anywhere for the creation of custom magic items. None at all."

Forged Fury
2010-09-18, 07:20 PM
Let them have it, then introduce them to the wonderful world of miss chance stacking. :smallbiggrin:
Are there a lot of ways to generate miss chance other than concealment? I ask since True Strike ignores miss chance granted due to concealment.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-18, 07:23 PM
Let them have it, then introduce them to the wonderful world of miss chance stacking. :smallbiggrin:
That won't be quite as effective as you think:

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

Flickerdart
2010-09-18, 07:25 PM
Are there a lot of ways to generate miss chance other than concealment? I ask since True Strike ignores miss chance granted due to concealment.
Blink gives miss chance due to being on another plane at the time. The mystery Flicker also gives you miss chance for not being there. I'm sure there are others.

Also, Mirror Image.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-09-18, 07:38 PM
Blink gives miss chance due to being on another plane at the time.

Ethereal creatures are invisible, part of Blink's effect is that you cannot be seen half the time. Invisibility = total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) (first paragraph). If an attacker can see invisible creatures or ignores the miss chance due to concealment, Blink only gives you a 20% miss chance.

Flickerdart
2010-09-18, 07:42 PM
Ethereal creatures are invisible, part of Blink's effect is that you cannot be seen half the time. Invisibility = total concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) (first paragraph). If an attacker can see invisible creatures or ignores the miss chance due to concealment, Blink only gives you a 20% miss chance.
20% from Blink, 50% from Flicker, Mirror Image...that's a pitiful chance to hit the real deal already.

gdiddy
2010-09-18, 08:37 PM
A Story about an free action activated True Strike ring:


DM:

Do you put on the ring?

Player:

Does it look expensive?

DM:

Yes. It's silver with an miniature onyx skull of an elf.

Player:

Do I feel anything?

DM:

It's powerful. It's making your sword hand tickle.

Player:

Should I write down the mechanical bonus on my sheet?

DM:

It's ring of continuous True Strike.

Player:

Nice!

...NOT MUCH LATER...

Player:

I call on the ring's power again and charge the guard.

DM:

You take him down in one shot. Make a will save.

Player:

GET THIS THING OFF ME! *cuts half of his hand off*

Zhalath
2010-09-18, 11:41 PM
Deconstruct the item. Give it to tons of NPCs. I mean, if it's that good, plenty of NPC fighters and warblades and people who like connecting with attacks will buy it. Soon enough, everyone has one. It's the "in" thing. It's the item to have. Everyone can potentially benefit, right? And when it costs so little, relatively, it's so easy to acquire. And if lowly 5th level fighters have one, then I'm sure balors and pit fiends and all the lords of Hell are sporting rings of true strike. And eventually a lot of people will die because no one will be able to evade attacks and will be taking lots of damage. Anyone who can't optimize AC with magic bonuses or pimped out armor will be wiped off the face of the Material Plane. It will be a world of wizards, clerics, and people who can afford the greatest armor and shields known to man. In time, they too will be wiped out. When Hell and Heaven finally meet in a final battle, they'll massacre each other, as the vast majority of attacks connect, and they claw and beat each other to death.
In time, all that will be left will be the casters who could raise their AC high enough to not die. Every day will be a struggle for survival in the wasteland of weapons, as scavengers pillage for metals to make armor and the necessary components to forge it magically. But even they will be wiped out, as you can only enchant so much before someone just forces you to make a save and you fail. The population of the world is reduced to lonely casters in high towers, covered in contingency and wards, hoping to avoid the eerily precise accuracy of their foes, as well as all the usual hazards. With no reproduction, intelligent life disappears from the Material Plane, and Heaven and Hell's barracks are filled with new petitioner recruits, ripe for the slaughter...

"Be careful what you wish for, because you may get it." :smallamused:

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 04:03 AM
It's probably easier just to make a continuous AND use activated item casting true strike apply to a specific weapon at-will.

So every time, say, a great sword is used to attack, then it casts true strike upon the wielder immediately before the attack is made.

Price?

- Masterwork medium sized great sword is 350 Gp

- Continuous True Strike (casts true strike with a standard action, which applies until expended; can do this anytime) is 8000 Gp, because...


If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

NOTE: True Strike lasts 2 rounds (the text says 'before the end of the next round) and has the special exception that it is expended upon the next attack.

- Spell trigger items cost 15gp per charge for 1st level spells - because 50 charges requires 750gp for 1st level spells. Use Activated items are 50gp for a single use. For continuous spells, usually the added cost is 100 times the number of charges.


If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

Hence, it can be houseruled that enhancing a greatsword of true-strike with a desired use-activation of the spell (attack with the great sword) costs at least +5000gp.
-----

So perhaps a great sword of true strike (affect always applies when the wearer swings) would cost 13,350gp at least +/- affects to make the spell apply immediately (or whatever; the rules are shoddingly vague).

A ring would that applies the affects to the wearer who wields any weapon might cost at least 26,700gp.

Bayar
2010-09-19, 04:10 AM
The only problem with that is that they are not rules, they are only guidelines.


The real response is: "What rules? There are no rules anywhere for the creation of custom magic items. None at all."

There are also no rules that say a DM cannot kill players just becuase he gets boners doing it. the phrase in which the DM and players are actually playing together and not versus one another is also a guideline, not a rule. There are also no rules to prevent healing while drowning or other shenanagins, only common sense.

If the DM responds in that manner and ends the discussion in that way and doesn't at least try to work out something with the player that would be reasonable, then the DM is not doing a very good job at DMing.

Zen Master
2010-09-19, 04:30 AM
Hm ... my solution is pathetically simple by comparison.

Any item to be created requires scematics of it's creation, plus DM approval. Of course you can make your own scematics - if you put in the time required, and get DM approval. Years of research, trial and error, and so on.

End result: I am DM. Not the players.

Coidzor
2010-09-19, 04:31 AM
And players trying to weasel +20 insight to all attack rolls forever aren't?

Weasel? It seems pretty blatant, obvious, and open to me. So, it's in effect, agreeing to it and then saying, "oh wait, I've altered the deal and caused you to waste WBL at char-gen that the other players still have, pray that I do not alter it any further."

Anyway, OP, there's no way to argue that such is the rules.

Because the guidelines are guidelines. Playing with infinite cure minor or cure light wounds items or banning their creation, neither has any real modification of "da rules"

Zeful
2010-09-19, 12:48 PM
The only problem with that is that they are not rules, they are only guidelines.



There are also no rules that say a DM cannot kill players just becuase he gets boners doing it. the phrase in which the DM and players are actually playing together and not versus one another is also a guideline, not a rule. There are also no rules to prevent healing while drowning or other shenanagins, only common sense.

If the DM responds in that manner and ends the discussion in that way and doesn't at least try to work out something with the player that would be reasonable, then the DM is not doing a very good job at DMing.

You assume that a +20 to attack rolls and the ability to ignore concealment is ever going to be reasonable. I am not. If a player gets this there are few monsters that would be able to pose a challenge now that the player can drop their BAB into power attack every round and still hit. Combine with a caster telling the fighter the square of an invisible enemy, and invisibilty becomes useless (the 50% miss chance is due to total concealment, which no longer works). Since I now have to change all future encounters to minimize any potential gains from such a weapon or have him breeze through encounters I'm better off simply telling the player "no" and moving on.

Gavinfoxx
2010-09-19, 12:56 PM
I found the wotc answer to the ring of true strike!!

source:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a


"Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring of true strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range.

Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use-activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain.

So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring.

Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs."

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 05:02 PM
I found the wotc answer to the ring of true strike!!

source:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a


"Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring of true strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range.

Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use-activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain.

So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring.

Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs."

How about 400,000Gp + 13,000 for constant true striking on any attack?



So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring.

Perhaps this would only apply if the ring activated after every attack. 400 grand is a bit steep (especially when you can wish for a ring of true striking with a scroll of wish for a price slightly higher than 3000 gp). Also, it shouldn't stack with true strike or other attack augmenting powers that provide an intuition bonus (as RAW rules).


I am not. If a player gets this there are few monsters that would be able to pose a challenge now that the player can drop their BAB into power attack every round and still hit. Combine with a caster telling the fighter the square of an invisible enemy, and invisibilty becomes useless (the 50% miss chance is due to total concealment, which no longer works). Since I now have to change all future encounters to minimize any potential gains from such a weapon or have him breeze through encounters I'm better off simply telling the player "no" and moving on.

Um... power attackers do all that anyway. Also the caster telling the fighter where the enemy is is part of party co-operation regardless.

Maybe the fighter should have some grafted pearls with personalities and readied actions to cast true strike (spell-likes for them) on him - 5 or so pearls might cost 200,000gp or so.

I think that would probably cost about 4000gp * however much the GM wants to create a market multiplier for 'give item personality' * 5 (5 pearls).

Essentially 5 true strikes per round at 20,000 + gp. Very negligible for something 'game breaking'. Regardless, it isn't game breaking.

Concealment isn't really a difficulty beyond 5th level regardless - players that can deal with concealment in any encounter can be counteracted with a bit of GM creativity (which could as little as 'contingency spell activates when player ignores a monster's blessed concealment). And how many monsters rely entirely on concealment? I'm guessing the same kind that opt to kidnap women via 'female grab area (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFemaleGrabArea)'. Total cover on the other hand is different.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 05:07 PM
How about 400,000Gp + 13,000 for constant true striking on any attack?



Perhaps this would only apply if the ring activated after every attack. 400 grand is a bit steep (especially when you can wish for a ring of true striking with a scroll of wish for a price slightly higher than 3000 gp). Also, it shouldn't stack with true strike or other attack augmenting powers that provide an intuition bonus (as RAW rules).

Using the logic for the 400grand would also up the wish cost: Using the size of the bonus instead of the spell level.

imp_fireball
2010-09-19, 07:07 PM
Using the logic for the 400grand would also up the wish cost: Using the size of the bonus instead of the spell level.

That's GM discretion though. Because wishes only really detail bonuses regarding 'permanent ability score increase of an ability score'.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-19, 07:17 PM
That's GM discretion though. Because wishes only really detail bonuses regarding 'permanent ability score increase of an ability score'.
that doesn't add much to what I said considering the high pricing is already such a thing...

Tharck
2010-09-20, 09:18 AM
According to the Sage the ring should belong in the realm of 200,000gp market. Making it an epic item and something that belongs in an epic campaign. He does this by comparing the bonuses that the ring gives against common bonuses and costs you can find - which is exactly what the DMG expects as a guideline.

Shenanigans
2010-09-20, 09:50 AM
A Story about an free action activated True Strike ring:
Excellent story. I'm a big fan of putting non-gp "prices" on non-standard magic items too, like a dagger that allowed the party warmage to get double-edge in exchange for 1d4 Con damage. Needless to say, a wand of restoration was purchased quickly.

Douglas
2010-09-20, 10:30 AM
especially when you can wish for a ring of true striking with a scroll of wish for a price slightly higher than 3000 gp
You're forgetting the added cost for Wish's XP cost. A standard scroll of Wish costs 28825 gp. That same standard scroll has only the bare minimum 5000 XP available for its Wish, however, so it cannot be used to Wish for magic items at all - not even a caster level 1 scroll of a cantrip.

If you want a scroll of Wish with sufficient XP to create a Ring of True Strike, assuming that said ring is priced at 400,000 following the recommendation of that article:
1) 400,000 is well into epic territory. The epic magic item crafting rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#experiencePointCost) say the XP cost of crafting it would be 14000.
2) The XP cost of the Wish to make said item would, by the Wish spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), be 33000.
3) The gold cost of a scroll of Wish with that much XP available would be 168825.

...

Wow. Ok, it appears that the only magic item you should ever buy in epic is scrolls or other consumable items of Wish with large amounts of extra XP.

Moriato
2010-09-20, 11:31 AM
You're forgetting the added cost for Wish's XP cost. A standard scroll of Wish costs 28825 gp. That same standard scroll has only the bare minimum 5000 XP available for its Wish, however, so it cannot be used to Wish for magic items at all - not even a caster level 1 scroll of a cantrip.

If you want a scroll of Wish with sufficient XP to create a Ring of True Strike, assuming that said ring is priced at 400,000 following the recommendation of that article:
1) 400,000 is well into epic territory. The epic magic item crafting rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#experiencePointCost) say the XP cost of crafting it would be 14000.
2) The XP cost of the Wish to make said item would, by the Wish spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), be 33000.
3) The gold cost of a scroll of Wish with that much XP available would be 168825.

...

Wow. Ok, it appears that the only magic item you should ever buy in epic is scrolls or other consumable items of Wish with large amounts of extra XP.

Considering you'd have to be at least level 33 (without reducing the cost, anyway) to even try to make that scroll, and then also spend and entire level's worth of xp to do it, I can't imagine that there's that many on the market...

Douglas
2010-09-20, 12:09 PM
Considering you'd have to be at least level 33 (without reducing the cost, anyway) to even try to make that scroll, and then also spend and entire level's worth of xp to do it, I can't imagine that there's that many on the market...
You're forgetting: This is RAW D&D land! All you need is a city with a high enough gp limit. Go to Sigil, and you should be able to find as many as you need. If you can convince your DM to let them stack (I think RAW is ambiguous), I suggest Wishing for a bunch of Rods of Excellent Magic first. Once you have enough to pay the cost of Wishing for another Rod of Excellent Magic, you've hit critical mass and can now (given enough time to ramp up the number of rods) Wish for any magic item you can establish a price for, and get it free.

Tharck
2010-09-20, 06:38 PM
By RAW a DM can do anything. *Splat.*

imp_fireball
2010-09-20, 06:42 PM
that doesn't add much to what I said considering the high pricing is already such a thing...

So are you saying you could wish for gold? Even with the enhanced cost from what I said, it's still considerably cheaper than 200 grand.

Sorry, I'm confused.


You're forgetting the added cost for Wish's XP cost. A standard scroll of Wish costs 28825 gp. That same standard scroll has only the bare minimum 5000 XP available for its Wish, however, so it cannot be used to Wish for magic items at all - not even a caster level 1 scroll of a cantrip.


But can't you add on more XP for a higher price? Maybe you could wish for a device that smelts and produces gold coins automatically (maybe 1000gp per hour; it's small and slow)? You can destroy it to prevent discovery of your fraud.

I don't think it'd cost greater than 25,000gp. Particularly in a tech heavy campaign - even a low tech one would just be like, you creating a blue print using your immense intelligence (easy if you can wish your intelligence higher already) - and a craft metalworking and forgery check or knowledge (architecture and engineering) to reflect knowledge of drafting and measurements.

With the blue print you could come up with a cost effective means of producing such a clockwork forge/micro-factory for less than 25,000gp (doesn't include fuel costs though - which could be like 100 pounds of coal per day (X gp) +1 sp of greasing oil (if it doesn't exist, you can probably produce it with craft (alchemy); knowing what to produce could be knowledge (nature) - or knowledge (science and technology; non-RAW skill though) or whatever and then wishing it will see it done. :smalltongue:

So keep the forge active for maybe a week or so - and when it looks like it'll be discovered, disintegrate it. Hire a few lawyers to make your case. Or escape with due swiftness with a scroll of limited teleport (always have scrolls of limited teleport ready before hand of course) in a more dictatorial sovereign.
------

Here's a theoretical question: how much would a magic item cost that was both grafted and granted 20 permanent stacking levels of wizard upon wearing it?

I think it's possible to acheive absolute power through wealth alone. :smallamused:

Douglas
2010-09-20, 07:42 PM
But can't you add on more XP for a higher price?
Yes. That's exactly what the entire rest of my post was about: calculating exactly how much more you'd have to pay to add on enough more XP.

Skorj
2010-09-20, 08:38 PM
Ultimately, a use-activated True Strike item (standard action to activate) would be only marginally more powerful than a Wand of True Strike, at least in the hands of any character with 1 level or arcane caster, or a sack of Potions of True Strike.

A potion of True Strike would clearly be worth more than 50 gp (by comparison to other potions): it would probably be in the 1000ish gp range., given the 1-round duration. It seems less useful than a +5 magic weapon oil (with duration of hours), as you have to alternate chugging potions and attacking.

What's the usual cost for a use-activated (not continuous) item for an effect that costs 1000 gp in a potion? About 40,000 gp, which I think is a nice estimate of the value of a use-activated (standard action), True Strike item. An item that gave continuous True Strike would be significantly more (I'd call it a +10 weapon).

PinkysBrain
2010-09-20, 09:20 PM
Use activation is not a standard action, that's exactly why the guideline is useless.

Lord Psychodin
2010-09-21, 01:56 AM
don't spells that grant a continuous or almost constant effect get calculated by their bonuses? so a +20 to hit at the very least, is bonus squared, and since the bonus is a to-hit greater than +5, fall under epic guidelines? (making it cost 4 MILLION gold at the very least)

Haarkla
2010-09-21, 04:38 AM
A ring of continuous True Strike cost 8000 not 2000 gp.

Not that unbalancing considering that by the time the fighter can afford it, the party wizard can turn invisible and fly.

Tharck
2010-09-22, 09:53 AM
You cannot make a potion of True Strike, by RAW.

by RAW it would not cost 8,000gp. It would cost (DM determined.) If you EXCLUDE that from the magical item making process then it becomes broken. But that can be said by just about anything when you exclude break conditions from rules in order to break them.

Invis and Fly < +20 Insight bonus to hit always, ignore concealment, ignore cover.

+5 Sword < Truestrike on all attacks.
2 +5 Swords < Truestrike on all attacks.
Permanent Greater Magic Fang < Truestrike on all attacks.
Permanent Greater Magic Fang 1x for each appendage performing an attack. < Truestrike on all attacks.