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TechnOkami
2010-09-18, 01:05 AM
I want to make a Changeling character for a game and have Shadow Dancer as a second class. I know that according to the tier class system its 4 vs 5 (rogue and soulknife respectively), but I want a broader and more in depth explanation as to why I should pick one class over the other. And so I say play little giants.

Kyeudo
2010-09-18, 01:17 AM
Here's why the Soulknife is Tier 5: It has no unique class features and the class features it does have do not keep pace with the abilities of other classes. A soulknife's primary class feature, his mindblade, is essentially a free +9 sword. However, he is often better off using weapons that he finds as treasure, since these will have abilities +1 or +2 higher than his mindblade. His psychic strike hurts his action economy to use and is as subject to immunities as a rogue sneak attack, plus only applies to one attack, making it strictly inferior to sneak attack in almost all ways.

Rogue, on the other hand, has only a few dead levels, keeps pace well with expected performance, has enough alternate class features availible to mitigate immunity to crits and sneak attacks, and actually performs well in its intended class role. All you have to remember with a rogue is to not take Rogue 20. Spike in one level of any other class at 20th, since you will not lose anything important and may gain useful class features. I suggest Fighter or something from Tome of Battle.

TL DR version: Soulknives get a crappy sword, Rogues get to shank people.

TechnOkami
2010-09-18, 01:27 AM
So even though Soul Knives can strike a broader range of creatures than a rogue and even at a 30 feet range, rogues are generally better?

Eh no, nvm, discount the comment, rogue IS better.

HunterOfJello
2010-09-18, 02:22 AM
Rogues are far superior to Soulknives.


There are some better classes that fill the Rogue's role than the Rogue does (Factotum, Beguiler, Swordsage), but Rogue's are still decent.

true_shinken
2010-09-18, 08:09 AM
Rogues are far more versatile than Soulknives. People tend to ignore a few unique traits of Soulknives, though:

They are the only base class with a d10 hit die and Hide/Move Silently as class skills
Knife to the Soul is a very interesting ability. It will OHKO most animals, humanoids and magical beasts if you know where to hit'em.
There are a few prestige classes that really increase the Soulknive's power. Soulbow are Kensai are the most common, though a dip in Pyrokineticist is also good (though it kinda complicates the action economy problem).


That said, Rogues are mechanically better, thanks to UMD and skill points, a lot of splat support.
For a Shadowdancer, though, I'd choose Soulknife. Shadowdancer gives a few abilities you already got from Rogue, but you wouldn't get from Soulknife.

AslanCross
2010-09-18, 08:25 AM
So even though Soul Knives can strike a broader range of creatures than a rogue and even at a 30 feet range, rogues are generally better?

Eh no, nvm, discount the comment, rogue IS better.

And it is better because the Rogue can do other things than sneak attack.

Also, there's the Psychic Warrior, which can get the Soulbound Weapon alternate class feature. It does the exact same thing as the Soulknife does, AND it gets psionic powers.

grarrrg
2010-09-18, 09:04 AM
All you have to remember with a rogue is to not take Rogue 20. Spike in one level of any other class at 20th, since you will not lose anything important and may gain useful class features. I suggest Fighter or something from Tome of Battle.

I second the ToB dip, but recommend slightly more than just the one level. Swordsage with Assassin's Stance gets +2d6 Sneak Attack dice, with 3 levels of Swordsage (sprinkled around, not all at once) you'll still come out ahead on Sneak Dice. Although anywhere from 1 to 4 levels would help a lot.

true_shinken
2010-09-18, 09:13 AM
Rogue, on the other hand, has only a few dead levels, keeps pace well with expected performance, has enough alternate class features availible to mitigate immunity to crits and sneak attacks, and actually performs well in its intended class role. All you have to remember with a rogue is to not take Rogue 20. Spike in one level of any other class at 20th, since you will not lose anything important and may gain useful class features. I suggest Fighter or something from Tome of Battle.


'Only a few dead levels'? Rogue gets all of their abilities by level four. Well, except for 'rogue special abilities', but prcs are better than that.
Just be a Daring Outlaw.

BeholderSlayer
2010-09-18, 09:21 AM
Rogues get the ambush feats as well, which can make them decent debuffers.

Soulknives get....a magic sword.

true_shinken
2010-09-18, 09:25 AM
Rogues get the ambush feats as well, which can make them decent debuffers.

Soulknives get....a magic sword.

Except Soulknives get Knife to the Soul by default, making them debuffers as well.

Snake-Aes
2010-09-18, 09:37 AM
If you really really reaa~aaally want to play a soulknife and the dm allows "homebrew" classes, try pathfinder's soulknife (http://www.dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=918.html).

Otherwise, a rogue beats the soulknife in everything but raw hitpoints, and the SK extra hp is laughalbe in comparison to "absolutely everything else, while the rogue is incredibly better at all of it"

Curmudgeon
2010-09-18, 09:47 AM
I second the ToB dip, but recommend slightly more than just the one level. Swordsage with Assassin's Stance gets +2d6 Sneak Attack dice, with 3 levels of Swordsage (sprinkled around, not all at once) you'll still come out ahead on Sneak Dice.
Sneak dice aren't particularly compelling after a certain point. They average +1.75 points/level, when Craven provides +1 points per level anyway. What's much more important are the Rogue special abilities, like Crippling Strike to add 2 points of STR damage on every sneak hit. A Swordsage can manage this with Strength Draining Strike (4 points nominally, but really 2 points after they make the easy Fortitude save), but only once per encounter. The Rogue can add Opportunist and the Savvy Rogue feat and get to make an AoO against every single hitter who whacks on their allies, every round. Eventually the Swordsage can get to high enough levels to do that with Raging Mongoose, but again just once per encounter.

You need to compare more than just sneak attack dice here. Just as dipping away from martial adept classes slows your Swordsage maneuver progression, dipping out of Rogue delays the higher level abilities where the class really picks up power. I recommend getting a Rogue's Vest and other items if you want extra sneak attack dice, and skipping the Swordsage dips.

TechnOkami
2010-09-18, 10:03 AM
New Question: What classes go well with Shadow Dancer, and is it worth it?

SuperCracker
2010-09-18, 11:17 AM
My own 2 cents.

Soulknife is only acceptable if you are going for Soulbow. If you do that, well then I think it's an alright choice.

As for Shadowdancer- to me, it's always been a bit of a "meh" class. You get a limited dimension door, a summon, uncanny dodge (and improved), and evasion (and improved).

A single class rogue gets the latter two. I'm not a huge fan of the summon. Also, if you're going rogue, Shadowdancer is problematic because it does not advance sneak attack.

However, at 1st level of shadowdancer, there is something that can be of use to a rogue: hide in plain sight. It's pretty cool if you want to play a ninja rogue. On the other hand.... you could just UMD and go invisible.

Ultimately, I'd only take one level of it, if I were you.

Curmudgeon
2010-09-18, 11:29 AM
New Question: What classes go well with Shadow Dancer, and is it worth it?
Well, it would have to be classes that have all of Move Silently, Hide, and Perform as class skills just to get you there. That's Bard, Monk, and Rogue in core. Bard loses ground when you add non-spellcasting/non-Bardic music classes, plus what's the point of Hide in Plain Sight if you have to make sounds constantly? Monk doesn't have enough skill points (among other problems). So it's mostly just Rogue.

As for the worth, you've got to solve a few problems:

Avoid duplicating abilities. There are a bunch of Rogue alternative class features that can give you something instead of evasion or uncanny dodge.
Get the feat expenditure down. You can buy Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat (see Magic Item Compendium).
Double up on the return for your investment. That means getting Spring Attack as your next feat, because you'll have already paid for all the prerequisites. Basically you use Hide in Plain Sight for full attacks against foes who can't Spot you even when you're at -20 to Hide while attacking, and use Spring Attack against the enemies with superior Spot skills.
Put together good solutions for all of these points and at least the early levels of Shadowdancer can be worthwhile.

Grynning
2010-09-18, 12:50 PM
Surprised no one has mentioned this, but have you considered the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)? It's basically got everything a Rogue does, just a little later, and it gets powers. It's a solid high tier four/low tier 3 class that you can take all the way to 20 if you want to without needing to multiclass or PRC at all. For a sneaky psychic character concept, it's about as good as it gets. There's a similar class called the Lurk from Complete Psionic, but from what I understand it's about as terrible as everything else from that book.

Edit: Also, the Psionic Rogue can get the Shadow Jump ability of the Shadowdancer without having to take the PrC (if you really want that instead of just learning Psionic Dimension Door, which would be better). You could maybe dip one level of SD for Hide in Plain Sight, but that's all you'd need.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-18, 01:04 PM
Shadow Hand Swordsage maneuvers make for a better shadow-esque character than shadowdancer, and it meshes well with rogue. One of the things it can't do is HiPS, which you can effectively purchase as an item (Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis,from Tome of Magic, grants the wearer all the benefits of the Dark template)

lsfreak
2010-09-18, 01:18 PM
One of the things it can't do is HiPS, which you can effectively purchase as an item (Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis,from Tome of Magic, grants the wearer all the benefits of the Dark template)

The Dark template supplies the single worst version of HipS there is, unfortunately, as you still must have cover or concealment to hide. The shadowdancer version, on the other hand, you can hide with no cover or concealment, as long as there's a shadow within 10 feet.

mabriss lethe
2010-09-18, 01:32 PM
but you can acquire it for money instead of as a class feature. besides, a lot of the lower level shadowhand goodies make HiPS a little redundant. (Cloak of Deception springs to mind) But that wasn't the point I tried to make. You can make a better "shadow dancer" without ever touching the Shadowdancer class. There are work-arounds for getting at least the non-union equivalent that net you better secondary perks.

EDIT: Also, Dark Creature from ToM doesn't have the limitation you mentioned. Its limitation is "Except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar effect"

gorfnab
2010-09-18, 01:32 PM
New Question: What classes go well with Shadow Dancer, and is it worth it?
4 levels of Shadowdancer will get you into Telfammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East). Shadowdancer is not the best way to enter that class though. Also as stated in previous posts Hide in Plain Sight can be acquired through buying a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Unless your stuck with core only, Shadowdancer is rarely worth taking.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-18, 01:41 PM
Shadowdancer has basically the best form of HiPS there is, and the Dark template has by far the worst (indeed, the HiPS from Dark is rarely worth much of anything, as it doesn't solve the main problem with Hide). Given that Shadowdancer HiPS is a one-level dip, it is often worth it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-09-18, 01:44 PM
Shadowdancer has basically the best form of HiPS there is, and the Dark template has by far the worst (indeed, the HiPS from Dark is rarely worth much of anything, as it doesn't solve the main problem with Hide). Given that Shadowdancer HiPS is a one-level dip, it is often worth it.

The problem I think is the awful pre-requisites (dodge and mobility are some of the worst feats IME/O)
Though it could be interesting in a skirimisher build using the spring attack line
1 Move
2Attack
3Move
4Hide
5????
6Profit.

lsfreak
2010-09-18, 02:04 PM
EDIT: Also, Dark Creature from ToM doesn't have the limitation you mentioned. Its limitation is "Except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar effect"

Hiding has two requirements, as listed by the skill: 1) not being observed and 2) cover or concealment. You cannot hide without meeting both requirements. The text of the Dark template's HipS only removes the need for the first requirement. The shadowdancer HipS removes the necessity for both.

EDIT: For getting Shadowdancer, grab Mobility on armor to save a feat. Then for Combat Reflexes, either get Opportunist + Savvy Rogue as your special ability and 12th level feat, or Evasive Reflexes instead (depending on how your group ends up fighting), since Combat Reflexes on its own is pretty poor for a straight rogue.

grarrrg
2010-09-18, 02:10 PM
If you are absolutely set on Shadowdancer for HiPS, then see if your DM will allow you to use Dodge from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/dodge-combat---final). Or there are some "Dodge equivilents" in a couple books (not sure which).

Not sure what to do about Mobility though.

DragoonWraith
2010-09-18, 03:23 PM
Desert Wind Dodge isn't awful if you have some Swordsage levels. Midnight Dodge can be nice if you have some other Incarnum feats (and is, if nothing else, strictly superior to Dodge). If you have Fast Movement from somewhere and are planning on using it (probably not a great plan for Rogues, but whatever), the Dodge variant from Races of the Wild (whose name I can't recall at the moment) is also better than Dodge.

Mobility can be gotten on an armor for a +1 bonus.

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-18, 04:06 PM
If you have Fast Movement from somewhere and are planning on using it (probably not a great plan for Rogues, but whatever), the Dodge variant from Races of the Wild (whose name I can't recall at the moment) is also better than Dodge.

Expeditious Dodge?

I'd say that a Rogue dipping Swordsage could do well, if going Rogue 14/Swordsage 1/Shadowdancer X (coupling with more Rogue levels or Swordsage levels). The focus should be using anything aside from Dodge as an entry requirement, complementing whichever ability you don't get (mostly Crippling Strike for Strength Draining Strike, though the two combined would be awesome), replacing Evasion for Spell Reflection (on Complete Mage; that way, it wouldn't be redundant to gain Evasion), and getting your feats on stuff like Martial Study (for the Shadow jaunting abilities and Strength Draining Strike/Drain Vitality), Martial Stance (for Assassin's Stance, while getting Child of Shadow or Island of Blades for your Swordsage dip), Adaptive Style (that's a lot of ToB feats, but worthwhile), and probably Craven.

The idea is to play with the build to reach the balance point. Get more Rogue levels (14 is to get the second special ability, in case you want both Opportunist and Crippling Strike, but recall that Shadowdancer has Defensive Roll), more Swordsage levels (and thus saving on feats but also making you slightly more Wis dependant?), or more Shadowdancer levels (to make Shadow Jump more useful, as well as probably getting more of the class' abilities)?

Also, since you'll probably spend most of your time as a Rogue, try and get UMD. Just for the heck of it (it's the single most useful ability in the entire game, and the Rogue has it as a class skill). Psychic Rogue is also nice, though you lose UMD for UPD (which is a kind of downgrade), but you also get loads of psionic powers and more utility to a high Int score.

And I have to ask this: Snake, is that Mink from Darken?