Getting rid of XP [3.5]

[Heliomance]

Personally, I don't like the XP rules. I think they're complicated, unintuitive, and require too much bookkeeping. I'm soon to be running my first campaign, and I'll be running it on the "level up when I tell you to" principle. My question is this: How, in that case, do you adjudicate item creation and spells with XP costs? How do you balance them?

[Necrus Philius]

By saying "level up when I tell you to" IE. Slowing their level accumulation. Or just change the XP costs to something different.

[Ravens_cry]

The 'level up when I tells ya' system works best in more linear games, like most repackaged modules. In fact, that is how most of the games I have been part of have run. In a more freeform sandbox campaign, it wouldn't work so well, in my opinion.

[FelixG]

This is a fairly simple one.

Just add in the xp cost is instead 1xp:50gp rule a second time so that the items cost more but dont drain xp.

Edit:

Conversely you could buff the artificiers xp pool class feature and make an interesting world mechanic where artificiers are the only ones who are able to craft items of epic powers and make them a prized commodity :P

[akma]

I remmember once seeing a variant rule that certain classes gain magic item creation points, that they will use them instead of XP, but I don`t remmember where.

[Psyx]

The Item creation rules are a little harsh in some ways. Maybe double or triple make times and remove the cost?

Or give a temporary modifier to represent magical non-curable fatigue. Make a +1 sword?... take a -1 to all checks for period of time. Perhaps equal to the make time, or have a bigger penalty for more powerful items and make it less time.

[Tyndmyr]

I remmember once seeing a variant rule that certain classes gain magic item creation points, that they will use them instead of XP, but I don`t remmember where.

It's called craft points.

They work well, and honestly, it's not really unbalanced to just ignore the xp creation costs.

[PersonMan]

If I'm using XP crafting costs and the LUWITY system, I just give them half the XP needed to get to the next level as casting/crafting XP.

[Forged Fury]

For spells with XP point costs, you can replace with either very expensive material components (or add to what may be very expensive material components) or add a Focus requirement of a rare item that they'll have to go on a quest for to recover.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

For Item Creation, the XP cost is so small as to be negligible, particularly when compared with the gold cost and expected wealth by level. Furthermore, the catch-up mechanism in the way XP is awarded pretty much ensures the characters are never really behind in for more than a session or two. Furthermore, if the numbers fall just right, it could be possible for a caster to wind up with more XP than his or her compatriots. In short, you can remove the XP cost from Item Creation without changing anything else, and there won’t be any significant effect.

Casting XP costs, on the other hand, probably do need a replacement mechanism, since they don’t generally have the downtime requirements or gold cost to further limit their use. As has been mentioned, simply converting the XP cost to a gold cost is probably the simplest and most straightforward solution.

Though the usual conversion rate is 1XP = 5 gold, not 50. See the rules on pricing magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) and hiring spellcasters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) for examples of this exchange rate.

[Saintheart]

Minor note in passing: Red Hand of Doom has some nice obvious points for when you could theoretically just level the whole party up. These would be:


1. Right after they destroy Skull Gorge Bridge (or, at the latest, when they leave Drellin's Ferry for the Blackfens)
2. Right after they kill Regiarix in the Ruins of Rhest.
3. Right after they emerge from the Ghostlord's lair.
4. Right after they defeat Kharn at Brindol.

[LibraryOgre]

The 'level up when I tells ya' system works best in more linear games, like most repackaged modules. In fact, that is how most of the games I have been part of have run. In a more freeform sandbox campaign, it wouldn't work so well, in my opinion.

Why do you think that "level when the DM says" works poorly in sandbox?

[Kylarra]

Why do you think that "level when the DM says" works poorly in sandbox?My guess would be because there are less obvious break-points to level up after accomplishing something significant.


I would just do a craft pool of sorts for crafting items, but if I were to implement it, it wouldn't be a big deal anyway since my players aren't big on crafting things for whatever reason or another.

[akma]

Why do you think that "level when the DM says" works poorly in sandbox?

I guess where to level up the players will be less obvious, but theoritically it could work.

[Shpadoinkle]

Personally, I don't like the XP rules. I think they're complicated,

Not if you read how they're supposed to work and apply the rules as they're written.


unintuitive,

Meh.


and require too much bookkeeping.

No more than anything else in the game. Just write down "defeated 4 goblins" or "disarmed CR 3 trap" or whatever right after it occurs and tally it up at the end of the session.


I'm soon to be running my first campaign, and I'll be running it on the "level up when I tell you to" principle. My question is this: How, in that case, do you adjudicate item creation and spells with XP costs? How do you balance them?

I'd reccommend not trying this for your first game, but... well, it's your game, so I can't stop you.

Anyway, try this: Still give out XP, BUT, only when you feel like the PCs should level up, and give them 110 % the XP they need to go from level X to level X+1.

So when going from level 1 to level 2, you give 1,100 XP. When they go from level 2 to level 3, you give 2,200 XP, bringing them to 3,300. From level 3 to 4 gets them another 3,300 XP, bringing the total to 6,600.

If you want characters to be able to craft more magic items than that allows, raise the percentage.

Also note that the XP system as written accounts for characters using XP to make magic items and auto-corrects things when there's a level differential.

Say a level 4 wizard with a group of three other PCs, who are all level 5, overcome a CR 5 encounter. The wizard gets more XP because the encounter is above his level. Eventually he'll catch up. Say the same group completes a CR 4 challenge- the wizard still gets more XP than the other three guys becuse the encounter was below thier level.

[Kylarra]

I guess where to level up the players will be less obvious, but theoritically it could work.It's easy enough to just do it by session, if nothing else. That's how my exalted campaign works (while technically not quite the same, they get exp per session regardless of actions).

[AslanCross]

I remmember once seeing a variant rule that certain classes gain magic item creation points, that they will use them instead of XP, but I don`t remmember where.

The Craft Point variants in Unearthed Arcana were for skipping the time costs, though. You still had to spend XP.

The Artificer is the only class that can consume its Craft Reserve pool in place of XP.

[iDM]

Have the crafter lose something they gained last time they leveled up for a few days after they craft, like a spell slot, bonus feat, or even a point of BAB for dead levels. Or maybe their max HP goes back down to what it was last level until they complete a few encounters or after a week, whichever is less.

[Jack Zander]

Also note that the XP system as written accounts for characters using XP to make magic items and auto-corrects things when there's a level differential.

Say a level 4 wizard with a group of three other PCs, who are all level 5, overcome a CR 5 encounter. The wizard gets more XP because the encounter is above his level. Eventually he'll catch up. Say the same group completes a CR 4 challenge- the wizard still gets more XP than the other three guys becuse the encounter was below thier level.

I thought all party members received the same amount of XP, and the only thing having a lower level character in the party did was lower their average level and thus award all members the same boost in xp.

[Knaight]

I would reccomend simply giving end of session Xp. Depending on the desired leveling rate, this may be as little as 100*level, or as much as 1000* level. 400* level seems like a good approach. Note that you should use the highest level of anyone in the group for this, so that crafting doesn't put one too far behind the curve.

[erikun]

Well, the most obvious question is: Will this acually come up during a game? Most games do not have characters which use the crafting rules, especially when there isn't a Wizard in the party. You could simply ban any crafting, or say that it takes too long to be reasonably completed, and never have to worry about the issue. You'll want to make sure your players are alright with no scribing scrolls or making their own wands, though.

I have been thinking of various ways to deal with XP myself, and was wondering how easy it would be to translate magical item creation from an XP expense to a time expense. It seems like would be generally easier to limit what a character can make by how long it takes to make it, than by how much XP they need to spend. Just allow them to work on it while "on the road," so that a wandcrafter can still make their wands, even if it takes several days for each one.

[Heliomance]

Problem with that is that I quite like crafting, certainly I prefer it to magic marts.

[Jack_Simth]

Just allow them to work on it while "on the road," so that a wandcrafter can still make their wands, even if it takes several days for each one.By RAW, they can anyway (especially if they have a way so that they don't need a full 8 hours of sleep in a day). Seriously (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems/creatingmagicitems.htm):

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.

The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. (Emphasis added)

If you walk for eight hours a day, sleep for eight hours a day, and eat for an hour a day, you can't craft. However, if you, say, walk for only 6 hours a day, it's not a problem. If you're a Divine caster with a Ring of Sustenance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance), then you only need two hours of actual sleep - 8 hours of walking, 2 hours of sleep, and 8 hours of crafting works just fine.

[Coidzor]

Wait, so dedicated wrights are pointless then? :smallconfused:

[Jack_Simth]

Wait, so dedicated wrights are pointless then? :smallconfused:
No.

If you don't have a 'get out of sleep' card, or you want to have multiple items crafting at the same time, then the Dedicated Wright is quite useful.

[Valameer]

It doesn't really hurt to get rid of crafting XP costs altogether. Just make sure no one takes this as a cue to abuse crafting.

In an average campaign, the time spent crafting and the feats required for crafting cripple it enough. Since a DM is usually monitoring WBL anyway means that item crafting is usually reserved for either flavor or cheese.

For artificers or other 'dedicated crafters', you could use their Craft Reserve Pool as a limit for how many magic items they can make in half the normal time. Anything beyond that limit takes regular time.

I find this encourages item crafting, which generally feels more rewarding than going down to MagicMart.

Just keep an eye out for abuse.