Superman vs. Mage: The Awakening

[Leliel]

The other thread inspired me.

Since we know Supes is pretty much on even ground with magic-users, I wonder; What would happen if he faced off against the Seers of the Throne (aka the "villain" faction from M:tAw)?

Before you start wondering why I didn't put the Technocrats up there, I think that the factions in Ascension are a bit too morally grey for an IC Superman to take a side.

The Seers, on the other hand, have long since realized their manipulations work better in a climate of abject misery and oppression. Comic book evil, right there (even if an individual Seer has the capacity to be sympathetic).

Rules:

1) Assume the Metropolis Consilium (a gathering of the PC factions in Awakening) has been run out of the city for the duration of the fight (IC, is it really that hard to understand why say, Lex Luthor is less than enthused to have groups like the Guardians of the Veil/Silver Ladder on his turf?). That doesn't mean he can't find them outside the city, but that takes time...and mages love time. Rituals, you know.

2) The pylon who will be representing the Seers is composed of five Masters of each path, in order to bring them up to Superman's level.

3) Seeing how this is the DC Universe, Disbelief is a non-issue, but Paradox is.

4) Kryptonite, while a mundane (for certain values) mineral, is a bit too arcane for the Moros to make without significant preparations. No turning the cape into a fetching shade of green, in other words.

So, who do you think will win.

[Ravens_cry]

Superman has historically being vulnerable to magic. Just putting this out there.

[Leliel]

Superman has historically being vulnerable to magic. Just putting this out there.

That was noted in the first post.

I said "on even ground" after all.

For the record, it's not that he's especially vulnerable, it's that he lacks defenses against it, specifically.

[Starbuck_II]

Wait, which Superman are we workingwith?
The omniscient, all knowing, time traveling, super inventing, genuis, who makes Aboleths (D&D creatures that know pretty much all) look dumb Superman?

Or the cartoony: kinda smart, but not a genuis Superman?

[Leliel]

Or the cartoony: kinda smart, but not a genuis Superman?

Since the DCAU version seems closer to the average, why not that?

[Zaydos]

First thing Supes does when facing magic is go get Dr. Fate. Demons invade Metropolis? Doctor Fate. Mages? Doctor Fate. Now depending upon how Doctor Fate is feeling at the time he may or may not be willing to help.

[Project_Mayhem]

The mages surely? With no magical defences, Supes will get destroyed by One Mastigos with Space and Mind 5. Unless being Superman counts as a bonus supernatural resistance :p

[Zaydos]

The most I know is that magic is something Superman can't directly combat. How resistant his mind is to control and illusions varies by writer. In the DCAU he was vulnerable to Mordred's spell to banish all adults in the world (but so was everyone else it was just that powerful), and turned into a child by Morganna LeFey (but he requested it), and fought a demon and closed off a hell gate with the help of Doctor Fate and an amulet that was anathema to the demon. Whether the reason demons couldn't possess him was the amulet of just his sheer awesomeness I was never sure as a child.

[Project_Mayhem]

Well, if its difficult to affect him, he probably wins. If not, he goes down to the first spell :p

[Zaydos]

Well, if its difficult to affect him, he probably wins. If not, he goes down to the first spell :p

I think he has no better resistance than a heroic human, which is why before fighting mages and magic using foes Superman goes to get help from someone who specializes in it (Doctor Fate). I know he did in the Animated Series the one time magic cropped up; in the Justice League he did so less often, although he still went to Doctor Fate in 2 episodes at least.

[Oslecamo]

Whether the reason demons couldn't possess him was the amulet of just his sheer awesomeness I was never sure as a child.

He's just that badass. Back in the day supes faced a man who had been collecting the souls of important people and great heroes for centuries. Supes went inside the gem, only to break it from inside and release everybody.

More recently, Jericho went psycho and started possessing people (his only power actualy) left and right, untill supes shows off and shruggs it off like nothing.

[Selrahc]

Assuming I'm running a Seers of the Throne death squad to kill Supes and I have at my disposal one master from each arcanum. I'll assume Superman automatically resists any spell with a chance for resistance.

First we shift into a no-space hidey hole (Space 4). There is no way in except by will of the person who made it. It can let people out anywhere. The no space is put under the effects of the faerie glade spell to increase our time to prepare.

We find out everything we can about Superman. With Mind 5(knowledge of what he thinks, and what others think about him), Spirit 5(knowledge of what effects he has on the spirits), Death 5(the knowledge of the dead), Time 5(knowledge of his past and future), Fate 5(knowledge of his destiny), Prime 5(magical knowledge.. which admittedly isn't that useful) and Life 5(physical characteristics) that is likely to get us more information than he knows about himself.

With all of this it is easy for the space master to create a sympathetic connection to him. We can travel to him at will.

Before we attack him we use the sympathetic connection to ensure we will succeed. The fate mage creates a Geas of Doom.

If creating Kryptonite isn't allowed I'd go for his other weakness, Red Sun radiation. Forces 5 can do this easily. The forces mage creates a sun, which the prime mage binds to our attack force to imbue them with its power.

When the attack commences the time mage leads. Since he can attack while time is frozen, even superspeed won't be enough to help. By the time Superman realizes what is going on, he will have been stripped of his superpowers and be under attack by the best forces 10 powerful mages can muster.

[lord_khaine]

I am pretty sure thats not possible with normal Time 5 magic.

[Project_Mayhem]

They would be able to freeze him in time though. Attacking ends the effect, but they could then use time to synchronise and all simultaneously hit for massive damage.

Another point thats been missed - even if kryptonite is not possible to synthesise, A Prime illusion with a Mind effect would make supes react as if it was real.

[Starbuck_II]

Assuming I'm running a Seers of the Throne death squad to kill Supes and I have at my disposal one master from each arcanum. I'll assume Superman automatically resists any spell with a chance for resistance.

First we shift into a no-space hidey hole (Space 4). There is no way in except by will of the person who made it. It can let people out anywhere. The no space is put under the effects of the faerie glade spell to increase our time to prepare.

We find out everything we can about Superman. With Mind 5(knowledge of what he thinks, and what others think about him), Spirit 5(knowledge of what effects he has on the spirits), Death 5(the knowledge of the dead), Time 5(knowledge of his past and future), Fate 5(knowledge of his destiny), Prime 5(magical knowledge.. which admittedly isn't that useful) and Life 5(physical characteristics) that is likely to get us more information than he knows about himself.

With all of this it is easy for the space master to create a sympathetic connection to him. We can travel to him at will.

Before we attack him we use the sympathetic connection to ensure we will succeed. The fate mage creates a Geas of Doom.

If creating Kryptonite isn't allowed I'd go for his other weakness, Red Sun radiation. Forces 5 can do this easily. The forces mage creates a sun, which the prime mage binds to our attack force to imbue them with its power.

When the attack commences the time mage leads. Since he can attack while time is frozen, even superspeed won't be enough to help. By the time Superman realizes what is going on, he will have been stripped of his superpowers and be under attack by the best forces 10 powerful mages can muster.

Wait, when did Red Sun remove his powers?
If Supes finds out, couldn't ge with his last ounce of power reverse time and then try to stop the Mages before they succeed in making the sun.

It will be like Groundhogs day.

[golentan]

On an open playing field at the word "go?" Superman can tear through the mages before they can blink or realize he's dangerous. Sure, time magic beats the heck out of super speed, but he's also got the lunatic reaction times, and all that jazz.

Given a day's heads up to prepare? Mages, for reasons stated by others.

Given a long period's heads up? Supes may be able to get some help from allies to either counteract some of the Seers' tricks or drown them in paradox during the battle. I don't see the extra time significantly aiding the mages, but I'm not sure it helps Superman enough to overcome the advantage they gain from prep time. Inclined to give it to the mages, but I see it as at least a little more of a tossup.

[chiasaur11]

On an open playing field at the word "go?" Superman can tear through the mages before they can blink or realize he's dangerous. Sure, time magic beats the heck out of super speed, but he's also got the lunatic reaction times, and all that jazz.

Given a day's heads up to prepare? Mages, for reasons stated by others.

Given a long period's heads up? Supes may be able to get some help from allies to either counteract some of the Seers' tricks or drown them in paradox during the battle. I don't see the extra time significantly aiding the mages, but I'm not sure it helps Superman enough to overcome the advantage they gain from prep time. Inclined to give it to the mages, but I see it as at least a little more of a tossup.

About right.

But if Superman can go to any of his buddies for magic help?

John. Constantine.

Man made a deal with the devil. Or a lot of deals with a lot of devils.

The end result was his cancer getting cured. Not as a term of the deals. Just because the man knows how to play people.

[Selrahc]

On an open playing field at the word "go?" Superman can tear through the mages before they can blink or realize he's dangerous. Sure, time magic beats the heck out of super speed, but he's also got the lunatic reaction times, and all that jazz.

That brings up the question of who exactly the Seers are fighting. Are they fighting the character Superman with a code of conduct and a fairly predictable attack methodology, or are they fighting Psychoman, a being with Superman's powers but no compunction against killing and a tendency to go all out with all powers immediately, particularly superspeed(which Supes has a history of not really utilising all that much if it isn't needed).

Of course regular Superman really has no win scenario. He isn't willing to kill, and there is no place in existence that a mage can be safely locked up for long.


Wait, when did Red Sun remove his powers?

All the time. It's just harder for Superman's foes to put him under a red sun than to find some kryptonite.


If Supes finds out, couldn't ge with his last ounce of power reverse time and then try to stop the Mages before they succeed in making the sun.


1. He basically never does this. Ever. I've never actually seen him do it in a modern age story.

2. It takes a large amount of superpowers and involves questionable application of physics(basically.. superspeed breaks time). He certainly won't be able to do it under the effects of red sun radiation since the whole point of that is that it removes powers.



John. Constantine.

Man made a deal with the devil. Or a lot of deals with a lot of devils.

This is honestly nothing special. John Constantine slots right into the middle of a mage game without anyone raising an eyebrow. Admittedly, he is better written than most characters you'd find in an RPG game, but the things he does are pretty much the same.

Given that any magical protection that he can put up will be battered down from a distance, he has never been about power but trickery, and these guys aren't devils looking to steal his soul or negotiate in any way I'm not sure how handy he is.

[lord_khaine]

Of course regular Superman really has no win scenario. He isn't willing to kill, and there is no place in existence that a mage can be safely locked up for long.

But he is fast enough to knock 10 mages out cold before they can take a single action.

As for locking mages up, then there is a couple of options; John could lock them up inside their own mind, its not certain they can use their power inside the phantom zone, Zartanna could remove the memory off their magic from their mind, and in the end there is allways imprisonment inside the source wall, as i recall the only being to escape from that place was Darkseid.

[Selrahc]

But he is fast enough to knock 10 mages out cold before they can take a single action.

It's supposed to be 50. I just decided to only use 10 for my scheme.

In normal battles Superman doesn't use superspeed. If he is fighting bank robbers or other common criminals he knocks them out one by one. If he is fighting supervillains he does the same. He basically only uses super speed in emergencies. Does this count as an emergency? Well it depends on what Supes knows. His normal method of operation on fighting 50 powerful criminals would be to talk first, then to gauge what they can do using the minimum amount of force to avoid hurting them. If he knows the full extent of their abilities then he would basically have to go in at superspeed.


Although if they were allowed some general buffs up(say they know they're going into a meeting with a powerful being to attempt to intimidate him into staying out of their affairs, but don't know anything specific about him) then they've got a good chance of survivng even a superspeed assault long enough to escape and regroup. Or even to go on the counterattack. Mages can get very tough and very fast.



As for locking mages up, then there is a couple of options; John could lock them up inside their own mind

Definitely not a problem for a mind mage. Running around inside your own mind is what those guys do. And once they've escaped they can easily bust out the others.



its not certain they can use their power inside the phantom zone


They should be able to. The phantom zone is pretty damn similar to the spirit world and the twilight, and even if it isn't mages of spirit or death or space have a lot of transdimensional spells they can cast that put them into those dimensions or back into normal existence.


Zartanna could remove the memory off their magic from their mind

Doesn't work. It's a setting point that the soul is immutable and once it knows the truth about magic that can't be undone. You can take away the memories, but you can't take away the magic. And with the magic you can get back the memories.

It's also out of character for Supes to have that done to someone.

[Project_Mayhem]

I should add with regards to superman acting faster, that a master time mage can also, probably, reset time by a good while. at 3 in time, thy can reset time by 1 turn - extrapolation suggests around 1 scene by master level. As an acanthis with fate, they can have the spell cast with the trigger 'someone takes an aggressive action against me'. As a powerful seer, I would have this prepared all the time. At which point they are an hour ahead of superman.

[Oslecamo]

All the time. It's just harder for Superman's foes to put him under a red sun than to find some kryptonite.

Even then saying Super Man is vulnerable to red suns it's like saying you can kill someone by waiting for them to die of old age.

In infinite crisis, super man dives trough a Red Sun's core by himself, goes trough the other side and lands on the nearest planet, whitout any damage besides his cape geting burned.

So it means that despite being exposed to an insane amount of red sun he still had enough power to travel millions of quilometers trough space and shrugg off orbital re-entry.

Aka more than enough power to wipe out a bunch of pesky mages.



1. He basically never does this. Ever. I've never actually seen him do it in a modern age story.

He does it when an oponent manages to really piss him off. Not common, but it does happen. Like that anti-hero gang led by a psycho with psychic powers that decided to start killing villains. They pissed off superman and then he turns on super speed and defeats them all on two pages, including such wonderfull stuff as heat vision brain cyrurgy trough the retina to prevent them from using their powers(aka lobotomy but that isn't a very pretty word).




2. It takes a large amount of superpowers and involves questionable application of physics(basically.. superspeed breaks time). He certainly won't be able to do it under the effects of red sun radiation since the whole point of that is that it removes powers.

Again, in infinite crisis going inside a Red Sun's core still left him with enough energy for space travel and crash landing. He then stayed three days as a normal humie, but he just needs one second of remaining super powers to crush the oposition once he realizes how dangerous they are.

[Zaydos]

Also since we're going with Animate Superman as the baseline here, remember he gave us the world of cardboard speech because he is always holding back; if he decided the mages were a real threat he'd cut loose. Even against the most powerful super villains Superman pulls his punches. The two times he fights all out are against Darkseid and end up as a curb stomp battle. This is against Darkseid one of the most powerful villains in the DC universe who has managed to almost destroy the entire universe by sitting on his throne knowing the right information before.

I still say his first move would be to go get Doctor Fate and if they're really this much of a magical threat Doctor Fate would move out, maybe angsting about the decision for a while first.

[Selrahc]

So it means that despite being exposed to an insane amount of red sun he still had enough power to travel millions of quilometers trough space and survive orbital re-entry.


Except at other times it depowers him instantly. We're dealing with fuzzy continuity.



He does it when an oponent manages to piss him off. Like that anti-hero gang led by a psycho with psychic powers that decided to start killing villains. They pissed off superman and then he turns on super speed and defeats them all on two pages, including such wonderfull stuff as heat vision brain cyrurgy trough the retina to prevent them from using their powers.

Not superspeed or all out attacks. Time travel. Can you name me a recent story where he solves problems with time travel? I've seen some golden and silver age stuff, and of course there was the first Superman movie, but I've never seen him employ it in a modern age tale.


Again, in infinite crisis going inside a Red Sun's core still left him with enough energy for space travel and crash landing. He then stayed three days as a normal humie, but he just needs one second of remaining super powers to crush the oposition once he realizes how dangerous they are.

If you're working on the assumption that red sun doesn't depower Superman... then they can use their powers to do it. Forces for example can slow his superspeed down to a crawl. Time does the job even more efficiently. Once they slow him down they stand a chance.

And if you allow them prep time then it isn't like these are total wimps. Buffed up master mages can take a rocket to the face and ignore it. That's historically been enough toughness to take a few slugs from Supes.

[Project_Mayhem]

He does it when an oponent manages to really piss him off. Not common, but it does happen. Like that anti-hero gang led by a psycho with psychic powers that decided to start killing villains. They pissed off superman and then he turns on super speed and defeats them all on two pages, including such wonderfull stuff as heat vision brain cyrurgy trough the retina to prevent them from using their powers(aka lobotomy but that isn't a very pretty word).

Minor point - he tricked him into thinking that. Actually, He just blasted his brain, stunning him.

[WitchSlayer]

About right.

But if Superman can go to any of his buddies for magic help?

John. Constantine.

Man made a deal with the devil. Or a lot of deals with a lot of devils.

The end result was his cancer getting cured. Not as a term of the deals. Just because the man knows how to play people.

Or just call on the Demon Etrigan, who has a portion of Merlin's power.

[Trixie]

In infinite crisis, super man dives trough a Red Sun's core by himself, goes trough the other side and lands on the nearest planet, whitout any damage besides his cape geting burned.

Out of curiosity, from what that this is made? Undestructium?


He does it when an oponent manages to really piss him off. Not common, but it does happen. Like that anti-hero gang led by a psycho with psychic powers that decided to start killing villains. They pissed off superman and then he turns on super speed and defeats them all on two pages, including such wonderfull stuff as heat vision brain cyrurgy trough the retina to prevent them from using their powers(aka lobotomy but that isn't a very pretty word).

What. It does not make any sense at all.

I guess their knowledge of the anatomy is rather... skin-deep :P

[Oslecamo]

Except at other times it depowers him instantly. We're dealing with fuzzy continuity.

Extremely fuzzy continuity. There's comics where supes gets overpowered by a mere elephant.



Not superspeed or all out attacks. Time travel. Can you name me a recent story where he solves problems with time travel? I've seen some golden and silver age stuff, and of course there was the first Superman movie, but I've never seen him employ it in a modern age tale.

Well, in Red Son, aka communist superman, Lex Luthor mass produces green lantern rings and engineers a plan where he trains an army led by Hal Jordan so they'll trap him inside infinite layers of green lantern energy with their combined force of will.

Superman proceeds to simply destroy the rings before their wearers can activate them, laughing at them for using a weapon that works at speed of tought when he's faster than that.

Thus, superman can act faster than you can think. Mages still need to think to cast spells if I'm not mistaken. Even if they teleport over him, superman can beat them all up before they manage to stop time.



If you're working on the assumption that red sun doesn't depower Superman... then they can use their powers to do it. Forces for example can slow his superspeed down to a crawl. Time does the job even more efficiently. Once they slow him down they stand a chance.

Tell that to darkseid and Brainiac and all the galactic super villains with their own hax technology and magic that have been defeated by superman countless times.



And if you allow them prep time then it isn't like these are total wimps. Buffed up master mages can take a rocket to the face and ignore it. That's historically been enough toughness to take a few slugs from Supes.
Just because he holds back his punches as he prefers to leave his oponents in one piece instead of pools of blood. If the first punch doesn't affect them he punches harder. If you resist too much planets start cracking under superman punches.

Project_Mayhem:Did he? Thanks, at least it means supes doesn't have super-chirurgy after all on his list of powers.

[Leliel]

Whoa.

Wait. Back up.

Remember when I said "Paradox is still in effect"?

Turning the Sun red may not trigger Disbelief by the rules, but by that point, you've stopped asking the question "How do we we avoid Paradox?" and going on to "How much do you want to bet that Great Cthulhu is the Manifestation?".

Mages aren't exactly eager to trigger Abyssal intrusions, you know.

[Selrahc]

Thus, superman can act faster than you can think. Mages still need to think to cast spells if I'm not mistaken. Even if they teleport over him, superman can beat them all up before they manage to stop time.

Listen. You're not actually responding to what you are quoting. I asked "When does Superman use time travel in the modern comics?" You are apparently responding to someone who says that Superman doesn't have superspeed.



Tell that to darkseid and Brainiac and all the galactic super villains with their own hax technology and magic that have been defeated by superman countless times.


Yeah. If they can't depower him then the best they can do is stand a fighting chance, even when he has been slowed down.


Although really, by the game they can hide out somewhere Superman can't get to them and attack him from a distance.



Turning the Sun red may not trigger Disbelief by the rules, but by that point, you've stopped asking the question "How do we we avoid Paradox?" and going on to "How much do you want to bet that Great Cthulhu is the Manifestation?".

It's not turning the sun red, it's creating a small sun, which emits red sun radiation. Forces 5 has as an example spell "create sunlight" on P176. The mage creates a tiny sun, with all the mystical and physical effects of sunlight applying to the light it creates. Seems like creating a red sun would be a simple application of this spell.



Thus, superman can act faster than you can think. Mages still need to think to cast spells if I'm not mistaken. Even if they teleport over him, superman can beat them all up before they manage to stop time.

Actually as was pointed out, Fate magic can be used to craft contingent spells.



Just because he holds back his punches as he prefers to leave his oponents in one piece instead of pools of blood. If the first punch doesn't affect them he punches harder. If you resist too much planets start cracking under superman punches.

Well yes. But if Superman is fighting like Superman, then the mages should be able to take a few hits as Superman gauges his level. And traditionally he doesn't do that at superspeed.

[Project_Mayhem]

No-ones responded to my point that the acanthis master can set a rewind spell conditional on Superman doing anything. And then, when the mages are prepared and have the element of surprise, he can cast it again conditional on supes winning, and hide miles away, watching through a scrying window. Acanthis *can* save scum