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View Full Version : Magic as Feats? BLASPHAMY! (Feat chains-windreaver up)



boomwolf
2010-09-18, 03:02 PM
Well, the idea behind this is simply, what kind of resource does casting use?
Some use slots.
Some are resource-free
Some use "mana" (psionics)
Some even use skills

But what we lack is the most though-of resource in the game: FEATS!

So, feat chains that provide semi-spellcasting abilities! each feat gives the resource necessary to fire off "spells" of his chain, similar to luck feats. the "core" of each chain is a "birthmark" thingy, so its only takeable as your first feat. (first FEAT, not first LEVEL feat, screw you humans.)

The planned chains are elemental based: Arcanesight Seed, Deathdweller Seed, Earthshaper Seed, Firestarter Seed, Frostwisper Seed, Lifebreather Seed, Windreaver Seed. they will contain 10 feats each. (1 seed, 1 "power" (extra uses), 3 first main chain, 3 second main chain, 2 secondary chain. for example "windreaver has seed, "power", 3 chain Aeriel Maneuverability, 3 chain for Knockback, 2 chain for Sonic Damage.)

I decided to start posting them long before this entire list is finalized, just to see how people react, and if they have any interesting ability ideas.

Ironically they offer the most not only to pure melee (for thier extra options), but spesificly to the Fighter (as he has tons of bonus fighter feats to cover them.) and many base their saves around physical abilities rather then mental ones.

On to the feats! [main 1, main 2, secondary]

Arcanesight (Last few effect being selected) [Magic Detection, Counter-magic, Charm-style]
Deathdweller (early WIP) [Harm, Debuff, Fear]
Earthshaper (last few effect to select) [Terrain Change, Defensive Buff, Lasting AoE]
Firestarter (last preparations before posting) [AoE, Light, Pinpoint Attack]
Frostwisper (early WIP) [Crowd Control, Pinpoint Disabling, Cold Attack]
Lifebreather (last few effect to select) [Healing, Protection, Buffing]

Windreaver: [Aeriel Maneuverability, Knockback, Sonic Attack]
Windreaver Seed [Windreaver]
You have been blessed with the seed of the Windreaver.
Requirements:May only be taken as your first feat.
Bonus:You may use one Windreaver Charge to cast Mage Hand as a spell-like ability (CL 1).
You gain 1 daily Windreaver Charge.

Windreaver Power
Requirements:Windreaver Seed
Bonus: you gain 3 daily Windreaver Charges.
Special: this feat may be taken multiple times, each time it is taken it grants 1 more daily Windreaver Charge. (4 the second, 5 the third etc...)

Shattering Viberation
A Windreaver is capable to crush objects with his raw mastery over winds.
Requirement:Windreaver Seed
Bonus: at the cost of 2 Windreaver Charges you may cast Shatter as a spell like ability (CL=1/2 HD. minimum 1). save DC is 10+Con modifier.
You gain 2 daily Windreaver Charges.

Sonic Wave
Requirement:Windreaver Seed, Shattering Vibration
Bonus: at the cost of 3 Windreaver Charges you may cast Shout as a spell like ability (CL=1/2 HD, minimum 1). save DC is 12+Con modifier.
You gain 3 daily Windreaver Charges.

Slow Descend
By sending a downwards jet of wind a Wendreaver slows his descend, protecting him from harm.
Requirements:Windreaver Seed
Bonus: by paying 1 Windreaver Charge you may cast Slow Fall as a spell like ability (CL1).
You gain 1 daily Windreaver Charge.
Special:having this feat counts as Slow Fall class feature for the purpose of entry qualification for prestige classes. (inserted this line mainly for my Nizari)

Levitation
Requirement:Windreaver Seed, Slow Descend.
Bonus: You may can Levitate on yourself as a spell like ability on yourself at will, the effect lasts as long you pay 1 Windreaver Charge per round.
You gain 2 daily Windreaver Charge.

Flying
The peak of Windreaver power, is the ability to fly.
Requirements:Windreaver Seed, Slow Descend, Levitation
Bonus:You may can Fly on yourself as a spell like ability on yourself at will, the effect lasts as long you pay 2 Windreaver Charge per round.
You gain 3 daily Windreaver Charge.

Blocking Breath
Requirements:Windreaver Seed
Bonus: You may cast Wind Wall as a spell like ability at will Winderaver Charge, however the wall is only a 5ft. cube directly in front of you, and only last as long you pay 1 Windreaver Charge per round.
You gain 2 daily Windreaver Charges.

Knocking Breath
Requirements:Windreaver Seed, Blocking Breath
Bonus:You may cast Gust of Wind as a spell like ability at the cost of 2 Windreaver Charges.
You gain 2 daily Windreaver Charge

Tossing Breath
Some Windreavers have mastered the ability of powerful breathing so much, they are capeable of throwing people away with it.
Requirements:Windreaver Seed, Blocking Breath, Knocking Breath
Bonus:As a standard action spend up to five Windreaver Charges
(minimum 2) you may make a breath powerful enough to push back opponents. Treat this attack as a bull rush with a bonus on the Strength check equal to 10 plus twice times the amount of spent Windreaver Charges.
You gain 3 daily Windreaer Charges.

UserClone
2010-09-18, 06:14 PM
These are...MIND-BOGGLINGLY AWESOME!! MOARMOARMOAR!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbig grin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I am also envisioning a magical-fighter type who gains bonus Magic feats instead of bonus fighter feats. Awesomesauce!

Dilb
2010-09-18, 06:31 PM
For 4 feats, I can fly for 3 rounds per day? Am I missing something, or are these incredibly weak? I like the idea, as a nice alternative to a template that actually costs something, but even if these were at will I'd be hard pressed to say they're worth taking.

If they're meant to help out the fighter, it would be a huge help to let them be taken as fighter bonus feats.

Hyooz
2010-09-18, 06:53 PM
How do I get charges back?

EDIT: Oh, daily? Yuck. I can cast mage hand once a day with the expenditure of a feat?

erikun
2010-09-18, 08:12 PM
Your average character has only 7-8 feats throughout their entire lv.1-lv.20 career. In fact, I think the Wizard is the only class which could even possess a whole feat tree, assuming these would be selectable as Wizard bonus feats. They certainly aren't Fighter bonus feats.

As Dilb pointed out, the magic provided by the feats is incredibly weak. A 10th level character can fly for a total of three rounds, assuming that they spend nearly all their magical ability to do so. A 10th level human who also picked up Windreaver Power can extend this to a whopping 5 rounds. Pretty much anything listed with a DC or caster level is strangely nerfed into questionable use.

boomwolf
2010-09-18, 08:25 PM
Well, technically their value is slightly higher then they first appear, as they power up each other, so having all feats (except power) will grant you a total of 19 charges, with multiple possible uses.

Naturally a PrC that gives extra charges AND bonus feats (Fortune's Friend style) is to later come up.
Still working on the others. hoping to upload another chain or two today.
If I cant-they will be delayed by two weeks (I'm home once every two weeks, army is though.)


The reason the Fighter (specifically) likes them, is that he can devote his "regular" feats to this, and use his bonus one to his fighter needs.

Although,I admit, I probably need to increase the charges given by each feat by quite alot. maybe double or triple them.

Ziegander
2010-09-18, 09:28 PM
What if instead of increasing the charges you simply use the total number of charges you get as your caster level for the various spell-like abilities? Then use all of the normal given variable effects based on caster level as per the standard spell descriptions. Because, the Fly feat, not only requires other feats, the duration is utterly garbage. Then you could say that you can't have more charges than your character level (if you think that's a problem, I personally don't think it matters).

For instance, let's say you use my idea, you're Human, level 6, and you've taken Windreaver Seed, Slow Descend, Levitation, and Flying as all of your feats. This gives you 7 Windreaver Charges per day and a total caster level for Windreaver Spell-like Abilities of 7. To activate Slowfall costs 1 charge, to activate Levitation costs 2 charges, and to activate Flying costs 3 charges. Now, with Slowfall instead of lasting 1 round, it lasts until you land, or for up to 7 rounds (as per Feather Fall), Levitation casts 7 minutes, and Flying lasts 7 minutes.

Now, I would also suggest that instead of granting Windreaver Charges, Deathdweller Charges, and Firestarter Charges, have them grant something universal like... I dunno, Magewell Charges. Something. Anyway, this helps people out who want to dabble in paths, or take multiple paths remain relevant.

Still, compared to actual spellcasters you're not throwing around anything close to their level, but at least you're getting pretty level appropriate abilities.

UserClone
2010-09-18, 09:50 PM
Ooo...I like that. Slick.

Dilb
2010-09-18, 10:13 PM
The reason the Fighter (specifically) likes them, is that he can devote his "regular" feats to this, and use his bonus one to his fighter needs.

The fighter needs his 7 general feats for general feats.


Although,I admit, I probably need to increase the charges given by each feat by quite alot. maybe double or triple them.

That's not nearly enough. By far the best power available is flight, and that's 4 feats up the chain. For a non-human it takes all your feats to level 10 before you can fly, at which point caster have been flying for 5 levels, and flying all day for 1 level. That's why even if these were at-will they wouldn't be that great.

Instead of investing in 4 feats, you can purchase potions of fly for 750 gold, or just ask the party wizard to cast fly on you for free. You can also get permanent flight from a flying mount, or a broom of flying, or the party pitches in for a flying carpet.

Any individual feat should have a use from the level you can get it, up to level 20. Power attack is a good example, but even something like weapon focus is better than these, because it's still a benefit regardless of how many other to-hit bonuses you get.

Milskidasith
2010-09-18, 10:46 PM
This is... very weak. It all depends on some factors, but... yeah.

If I were doing magic as feats (which I probably wouldn't, due to problems), my base would probably be some decent thematic lists, with each feat giving you a new level of spells (and being fighter feats, just because... why not?) with a level requirement such that you couldn't get spells early. Basically, here's how I'd see it...

*insert theme* Magic 1
You are naturally gifted with *theme* magic
Requirements: None.
Bonus: You gain the ability to cast three cantrips and two first level spells per day, chosen from the following list: *insert list.* Additionally, concentration becomes a class skill for you, no matter what your class. Furthermore, for every two *insert theme* magic feats of a higher level you have, you gain one more spell per day of levels 0 and 1.

*insert theme* Magic 2
Your talent with *theme* magic has grown.
Requirements: Concentration 7 ranks, *this theme* Magic 1.
Bonus: You gain the ability to cast two second level spells per day, chosen from the following list *insert list.* Additionally, for every two *insert theme* magic feats of a higher level you have, you gain one more second level spell per day.

These could be fighter feats relatively easily, and the basics are that, by sacrificing feats (a total of five/six feats is probably the highest it would go) you can become, essentially, a very limited list half caster with whatever classes class features.

Ziegander
2010-09-18, 10:55 PM
This is... very weak. It all depends on some factors, but... yeah.

If I were doing magic as feats (which I probably wouldn't, due to problems), my base would probably be some decent thematic lists, with each feat giving you a new level of spells (and being fighter feats, just because... why not?) with a level requirement such that you couldn't get spells early. Basically, here's how I'd see it...

*insert theme* Magic 1
You are naturally gifted with *theme* magic
Requirements: None.
Bonus: You gain the ability to cast three cantrips and two first level spells per day, chosen from the following list: *insert list.* Additionally, concentration becomes a class skill for you, no matter what your class. Furthermore, for every two *insert theme* magic feats of a higher level you have, you gain one more spell per day of levels 0 and 1.

*insert theme* Magic 2
Your talent with *theme* magic has grown.
Requirements: Concentration 7 ranks, *this theme* Magic 1.
Bonus: You gain the ability to cast two second level spells per day, chosen from the following list *insert list.* Additionally, for every two *insert theme* magic feats of a higher level you have, you gain one more second level spell per day.

These could be fighter feats relatively easily, and the basics are that, by sacrificing feats (a total of five/six feats is probably the highest it would go) you can become, essentially, a very limited list half caster with whatever classes class features.

This might be acceptable at mid to higher levels, but at lower levels that just makes you every bit better than a Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric. Of course, that all depends on what spells you put in those lists, but you get more spells each day than an equal level full caster (if a Wizard can get these than I suppose it doesn't matter, but still). Also, what would your caster level for those spells be? Your character level?

The Tygre
2010-09-18, 10:55 PM
Maybe just take one feat, then unlock more abilities along the way somehow? I'm just trying to think of how; would they be automatic with HD? Skill points, HP, ability score drain? I don't know. All I do know is that these are awesome, and I'm looking forward to how they develop. :smallsmile:

Milskidasith
2010-09-18, 11:00 PM
This might be acceptable at mid to higher levels, but at lower levels that just makes you every bit better than a Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric. Of course, that all depends on what spells you put in those lists, but you get more spells each day than an equal level full caster (if a Wizard can get these than I suppose it doesn't matter, but still). Also, what would your caster level for those spells be? Your character level?

That is a thing, yes. Perhaps if the cantrip one only granted first level spells at third level, and then you got more spells every three levels (so at concentration 9 ranks, 12 ranks, 15 ranks, 18 ranks, and 21 ranks; level 6,9,12,15,and 18).

EDIT: One feat could definitely work, but that makes the power increase of these feats from very good to tier increasing, must have levels of power.

I was also thinking that the lists could get spells at a lower level for some key buffs/mobility spells, since these are mostly intended as feats for noncasters (though sorcs could take them for a boost, too). Nothing major, just stuff like getting teleport at a lower spell level (though also a later level), just to keep up with your magical friends. Maybe a feat/capstone that gave a specific ninth level spell wouldn't hurt if we're aiming for tier increasing levels of power.

Ziegander
2010-09-18, 11:38 PM
I could see it working out pretty well. Do you cast the spells granted by the feats spontaneously?

Like...

Hoarfrost Harbinger I [Cold, Hoarfrost]
Prerequisites: Concentration 2 ranks
Benefits: You gain the ability to cast two 0 level spells each day, and one 1st level spell each day chosen from the following list: Resistance, Daze, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Obscuring Mist, Ice Dagger, and Ray of Enfeeblement. You may cast any spells granted to you by this feat without first preparing them ahead of time, as long you have unused spells each day. For each other Hoarfrost feat you have you may cast an extra 0 level spell each day and an extra 1st level spell each day (max six 0 level, max four 1st level).

Now, being Cold based, this is obviously not that great compared to a Wizard, but still, being a Fighter with this feat at 1st level... that's pretty cool. It would probably be a bit better if feats had a bit broader theme than "Cold" so that they could be more versatile and grant better spells.

boomwolf
2010-09-19, 01:09 AM
Well. some good ideas on how to make this more relevant. loonking into them now and selecting what I seem best.

Fizban
2010-09-19, 02:36 AM
Similar to Milskidasith, I propose my own idea:

Magic Power
Benefit: choose a spell of level equal to or less than half your character level plus one. You may now use the chosen spell as a spell like ability once per day. Unlike a normal spell like ability, you must still have any expensive material components or foci and pay experience point costs in order to use your ability. Additionally, if the spell has a casting time other than 1 standard action, your spell like ability uses the same action.
Special: this feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take it you gain two extra uses of the spell like abilities granted by all your previous Magic Power feats in addition to the new spell like ability.

erikun
2010-09-19, 07:16 PM
As a player, I would much rather have feats which grant me at-will abilities whenever I take them. Look at the Warlock: most of his abilities are useable at will, and yet he isn't overpowered compared to the Barbarian or Warblade.

Here are some thoughts along that line, although they tend to be underpowered compared to a proper spellcaster.

Frostwisper Seed
Benefit: You gain a permanent Endure Elements (Su) ability, which may be turned off at will. The ability turns itself on when you are not concious. You may also take Frostwisper feats.

Frostwisper Touch [Frostwisper]
Requirements: Frostwisper Seed feat
Benefit: You may make a touch attack which deals 1d3 Dexterity damage at will. A Fortitude save of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Constitution modifier negates the Dexterity damage. You may make multiple attacks through feats and high iteratives, if allowed. Doing so is a Supernatural ability.

If you are wielding a weapon made primarily of metal (such as a sword), you may use the weapon for delivering the touch attacks, benifiting from feats and bonuses on the weapon. In doing so, however, the weapon does not deal damage on the attack.

Frostwisp Cloud [Frostwisper]
Requirements: Frostwisper Seed feat
Benefit: You gain Obscuring Mist as a at-will Supernatural ability. The effect is centered on you, and only has a duration of Concentration. It is otherwise identical to the spell of the same name.

Frostwsleet Storm [Frostwisper]
Requirements: Frostwisper Seed feat, Frostwisp Cloud feat
Benefit: You gain Sleet Storm as a at-will Supernatural ability, with a caster level equal to your character level. The effect has a duration of Concentration, and is otherwise identical to the spell of the same name.

UserClone
2010-09-19, 10:30 PM
As a player, I would much rather have feats which grant me at-will abilities whenever I take them. Look at the Warlock: most of his abilities are useable at will, and yet he isn't overpowered compared to the Barbarian or Warblade.

Here are some thoughts along that line, although they tend to be underpowered compared to a proper spellcaster.

Frostwisper Seed
Benefit: You gain a permanent Endure Elements (Su) ability, which may be turned off at will. The ability turns itself on when you are not concious. You may also take Frostwisper feats.

Frostwisper Touch [Frostwisper]
Requirements: Frostwisper Seed feat
Benefit: You may make a touch attack which deals 1d3 Dexterity damage at will. A Fortitude save of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Constitution modifier negates the Dexterity damage. You may make multiple attacks through feats and high iteratives, if allowed. Doing so is a Supernatural ability.

If you are wielding a weapon made primarily of metal (such as a sword), you may use the weapon for delivering the touch attacks, benifiting from feats and bonuses on the weapon. In doing so, however, the weapon does not deal damage on the attack.

Frostwisp Cloud [Frostwisper]
Requirements: Frostwisper Seed feat
Benefit: You gain Obscuring Mist as a at-will Supernatural ability. The effect is centered on you, and only has a duration of Concentration. It is otherwise identical to the spell of the same name.

Frostwsleet Storm [Frostwisper]
Requirements: Frostwisper Seed feat, Frostwisp Cloud feat
Benefit: You gain Sleet Storm as a at-will Supernatural ability, with a caster level equal to your character level. The effect has a duration of Concentration, and is otherwise identical to the spell of the same name.

Uh, any reason you are choosing to call VERY obviously (Sp) abilities (Su)?

erikun
2010-09-20, 04:51 PM
Uh, any reason you are choosing to call VERY obviously (Sp) abilities (Su)?
Not really, beyond not having to deal with the Supernatural/Spell-Like difference for a long time. You could use whichever works best.

T.G. Oskar
2010-09-21, 02:25 AM
For some reason, I believe that a better way to handle "magic" as feats already exists, but it's improved on another place.

I speak about Dragonmarks. Basically, you get three feats (Least, Lesser, Greater) and you get up to 3 daily uses of a single spell-like ability, thematically linked one another, with a specific CL equivalent.

However, I feel Dragonmark has several weaknesses: one, it is a 3-feat investment, which can be hurting on feat-starved classes (Paladin, Monk, I'm looking at you two...), getting just Least Dragonmark grants you a CL of 1 (1!! You know how weak that is!?), and most of the GOOD spells can only be used 1/day. Lesser and Greater work under the same theme, but provide better spells (as in higher-level spells, but exactly how good they are is debatable), extra daily uses of the lower-level feats, and increases in CL equal to 6 (for Lesser) and 10 (for Greater). So you get a total of 3 SLAs, based off your Charisma modifier for DCs and up to 10 (plus levels in Dragonmark Heir, which means you have to sacrifice 5 levels gaining pretty much no class features to get decent dragonmark powers) on your caster level.

So...why do I mention Dragonmarks? The feats are thematically similar to these, except a bit more ambitious. A good idea would be to base upon the dragonmarks: Milski's idea is pretty similar, but...well, no offense, but it's kinda so-so. The idea would be to play upon the concept of dragonmarks, in which you get a single 0-2nd level spell with 1 to 3 daily uses depending on the actual power, and a +2 bonus on a specific skill with Least; 3rd or 4th level spells with Lesser, and 5th to 6th level spells with Greater, but fix the bad parts of them (state that each ability's CL is based on half your character level, plus a certain amount depending on the amount of feats you have, for example), and make the feats worthwhile but not exactly bait for casters, which will probably take them to increase their already formidable spellcasting ability.

Say, for example: the Windreaver feats have a Least Windreaver Seed (+2 to, say...Balance, and up to a single 1st level spell upon a specific list which can be used X times per day; alternatively, X times per day for every Y character levels, and CL equal to 1/2 character level), Lesser Windreaver Seed (up to a single 3rd, or maybe 4th, level spell which can be used X times per day; alternatively, X times per day for every Y character levels, another spell of up to 1st level, 1 extra daily use of Least Windreaver Seed SLAs per day and a CL increase to Least Windreaver SLAs of +1), and a Greater Windreaver Seed (up to a 6th level spell of a specific list which can be used X times per day; alternatively, X times per day for every Y character levels, another spell of up to 3rd/4th level and up to 1st level, another daily use of Least Windreaver and Lesser Windreaver Seed SLAs per day and a CL increase to Least Windreaver and Lesser Windreaver SLAs of +1). Then, you can add modifiers to those feats (such as Windreaver Magic which increases the CL of spells accessible to Windreaver feats by 1) or feats that key off these feats and that support other classes than casters (such as the Windreaver Blade feat which allows the individual to expend a daily use of their Windreaver Seed SLAs to make ranged attacks with slashing weapons for X number of rounds).

I would find that an interesting way to play with the system and give new and interesting toys to the melee characters which desperately need them. Also, you might want to call them Magic Seed feats, since you're awakening some sort of thematic magical power within you, as a seed, which will eventually sprout if you develop that power. But...as it stands, the Windreaver feats seem kinda weak since it's based on a very small amount of rounds per day, when it should be based off daily uses which is better balanced. Otherwise, interesting idea which could be improved quite well.

fil kearney
2010-09-21, 12:35 PM
Another feat resource is to look at the arcane swordsage variant from Tome of Battle. I've detailed the specifics in a separate thread HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9398220#post9398220).

Soulblazer87
2010-09-24, 07:08 PM
Well, this is definitely a very nice idea, helpfull for those characters with mystical/supernatural connections but without a spell-casting class.

However, as noted by others, the feats are rather on the very weak scale. Now, may I draw your attention at DnDwikia? There is a very nice sourcebook there called 'Races Of War'. Some feats there level with the attack bonus of the character, while others of the same authors do so depending on skill ranks or maximum available spells. It COULD stand to reason to gather up some of these feats into neat, tight packs and give them off in the same way.

You could say that at 1HD you gain the 'seed', at 3 you gain the 'Power' and at 6/10/whatever suits your fancy gain the rest of them. If done so, you should not add more abilities than five, nor should you calculate for a HD higher than 16, by that time a character could have enough firepower to not need any more benefits. Also, if you do this alteration, it could potentially enable a character that has focused on these skills to pick up synergies and combinations of these feats, like using fire and wind, or something like that.

Please, do note that I am in no way in possession of aforementioned supplement, just found it extremely interesting and useful in beefing up the poor fighter classes. Though, I'd still think it would be nice (in terms of politeness really) to ask the authors about basing your stuff off of theirs.